Text Size

Cleveland Browns & The NFL

Good God Almighty

Talk Browns football and discuss the NFL here.

Moderators: peeker643, jb, swerb, pup

Good God Almighty

Unread postby pup » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:40 pm

Probably does not deserve a thread, but Mark Sanchez blows. Goats.
Home Run Leaders as RHB 5/7/13

Mark Reynolds (10)
User avatar
pup
Closet Shapiro Fan
 
Posts: 12020
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:15 pm
Location: Eastlake, Ohio
Favorite Player: Vince Shubrownicek
Least Favorite Player: Any other coach

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby hiko » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:42 pm

Funny, I too logged on just to comment about how bad the QB-ing in this game is.

Now it's Tebow's turn to miss open Receivers by 3 miles.
User avatar
hiko
 
Posts: 1052
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:13 am
Favorite Player: Gray
Least Favorite Player: Black and White

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby hiko » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:49 pm

It might just be me, but it looks like Sanchez closes his eyes when he throws.

That would explain a lot.
User avatar
hiko
 
Posts: 1052
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:13 am
Favorite Player: Gray
Least Favorite Player: Black and White

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby pup » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:49 pm

Someone should tell Von Miller to lay off. They are better off with this stiff in the game.
Home Run Leaders as RHB 5/7/13

Mark Reynolds (10)
User avatar
pup
Closet Shapiro Fan
 
Posts: 12020
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:15 pm
Location: Eastlake, Ohio
Favorite Player: Vince Shubrownicek
Least Favorite Player: Any other coach

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby pup » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:50 pm

hiko wrote:It might just be me, but it looks like Sanchez closes his eyes before he throws.

That would explain a lot.


Fixed it.
Home Run Leaders as RHB 5/7/13

Mark Reynolds (10)
User avatar
pup
Closet Shapiro Fan
 
Posts: 12020
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:15 pm
Location: Eastlake, Ohio
Favorite Player: Vince Shubrownicek
Least Favorite Player: Any other coach

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby justmebd » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:55 pm

I don't know which part of this game I enjoyed more: Watching Mark Sanchez suck balls, or watching Tim Tebow continue to prove why the NFL Scouts usually know what they're talking about.
User avatar
justmebd
 
Posts: 1530
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:27 pm
Location: Youngstown, OH
Favorite Player: Gary Gygax
Least Favorite Player: Heinz Field Occupant

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:18 am

Sanchez plays the game too slow. Never can get through his progressions.

If his first option isn't open, he's got big problems.

And he's not accurate.

These things really don't improve much with time either.
User avatar
leadpipe
The Reverend
 
Posts: 6636
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:58 am

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby justmebd » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:19 am

While I have stopped watching the game (Due to no longer being in a house with the NFL network), I am informed via text the crowd now is chanting Brady Quinn's name.

Can anyone confirm this? If true, that's freakin' hilarious.
User avatar
justmebd
 
Posts: 1530
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:27 pm
Location: Youngstown, OH
Favorite Player: Gary Gygax
Least Favorite Player: Heinz Field Occupant

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby pup » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:24 am

justmebd wrote:While I have stopped watching the game (Due to no longer being in a house with the NFL network), I am informed via text the crowd now is chanting Brady Quinn's name.

Can anyone confirm this? If true, that's freakin' hilarious.


They are chanting Tebow as he leads them down the field for another 4Q comeback.
Home Run Leaders as RHB 5/7/13

Mark Reynolds (10)
User avatar
pup
Closet Shapiro Fan
 
Posts: 12020
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:15 pm
Location: Eastlake, Ohio
Favorite Player: Vince Shubrownicek
Least Favorite Player: Any other coach

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:25 am

Now imagine him on a team like the...umm... well... BROWNS.


Cue SD
In the end, we're all "only for a limited time," you guys.
User avatar
Ziner
Tot-Lovin' Hippy
 
Posts: 7063
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Favorite Player: Tater Tots
Least Favorite Player: Yam Fries

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby justmebd » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:29 am

pup wrote:
justmebd wrote:While I have stopped watching the game (Due to no longer being in a house with the NFL network), I am informed via text the crowd now is chanting Brady Quinn's name.

Can anyone confirm this? If true, that's freakin' hilarious.


They are chanting Tebow as he leads them down the field for another 4Q comeback.


Thank you, sir!!

The Tebow drama lives another week.
User avatar
justmebd
 
Posts: 1530
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:27 pm
Location: Youngstown, OH
Favorite Player: Gary Gygax
Least Favorite Player: Heinz Field Occupant

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:30 am

Tebow...all he does is win... and Tebow
In the end, we're all "only for a limited time," you guys.
User avatar
Ziner
Tot-Lovin' Hippy
 
Posts: 7063
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Favorite Player: Tater Tots
Least Favorite Player: Yam Fries

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:35 am

Can I just say that Von Miller is a bad ass mofo?
In the end, we're all "only for a limited time," you guys.
User avatar
Ziner
Tot-Lovin' Hippy
 
Posts: 7063
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Boulder, Colorado
Favorite Player: Tater Tots
Least Favorite Player: Yam Fries

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:36 am

3 comments.

1. Tebow is solidifying himself, by far, as the worst winning QB ever.

2. Tebow is solidifying his place in the NFL, not as a starting QB, but as a legitimate weapon in a "slash" type roll for some squad.

3. The Broncos have more wins then the Browns cause they do what good coaches/teams do - they adjusted their philosphy to who they have. Not adjusting who they have into their philosphy. Instead of forcing a QB ill equipped for the West Coast offense into a West Coast offense, for example.
User avatar
leadpipe
The Reverend
 
Posts: 6636
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:58 am

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby hiko » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:40 am

There's one really good player in this game, and that's Von Miller. A beast.

Tim Tebow is horrible, but what's even more horrible is the defense that can't stop him when he isn't even a pretend threat to throw the ball. Now I get to hear another week about how freakin' "magical" that douche is. Ugh.
User avatar
hiko
 
Posts: 1052
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:13 am
Favorite Player: Gray
Least Favorite Player: Black and White

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby leadpipe » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:00 am

hiko wrote:There's one really good player in this game, and that's Von Miller. A beast.

Tim Tebow is horrible, but what's even more horrible is the defense that can't stop him when he isn't even a pretend threat to throw the ball. Now I get to hear another week about how freakin' "magical" that douche is. Ugh.


That's the classic thing about Tebow though. He's playing to the minnions and the haters. He absolutely blows, yet he wins it in the end. Funny to listen to people go ape shit (in either direction) about the cat.

Also think it's funny he stepped on Rex Ryan's D, and now ole Rex has to eat it.

I also think Tebow is proving another thing. If the Browns had Fox instead of Shurmy, they'd have half a dozen wins right now.
User avatar
leadpipe
The Reverend
 
Posts: 6636
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:58 am

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby hiko » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:06 am

leadpipe wrote:
hiko wrote:There's one really good player in this game, and that's Von Miller. A beast.

Tim Tebow is horrible, but what's even more horrible is the defense that can't stop him when he isn't even a pretend threat to throw the ball. Now I get to hear another week about how freakin' "magical" that douche is. Ugh.


That's the classic thing about Tebow though. He's playing to the minnions and the haters. He absolutely blows, yet he wins it in the end. Funny to listen to people go ape shit (in either direction) about the cat.

Also think it's funny he stepped on Rex Ryan's D, and now ole Rex has to eat it.

I also think Tebow is proving another thing. If the Browns had Fox instead of Shurmy, they'd have half a dozen wins right now.


He plays so bad for 90% of the game that without a heroic effort by his D each week, he wouldn't even get a chance to make up for his prior mistakes. Tebow should get about 10% of the credit for these wins - the Defense should get the rest.

The only thing good about the media and his fans building up Tebow so high is that his fall will be epic.
User avatar
hiko
 
Posts: 1052
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:13 am
Favorite Player: Gray
Least Favorite Player: Black and White

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby swerb » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:30 am

God just may be on Tebow's side.

How funny would it be to see this dude go 12-4 next year with like 1,900 yards passing, more INTs than TD passes, and a 60.0 QB rating?

People would start praying to the guy, not for him.

I'm cheering for it to keep going. The fact that the whole storyline had me fired up to watch 2 crappy AFC teams on Thurs night says it all.

Image
"It's like dating a woman who hates you so much she will never break up with you, even if you burn down the house every single autumn." ~ Chuck Klosterman on Browns fans relationship with the Browns

http://www.twitter.com/theclevelandfan
User avatar
swerb
JoBu's bee-yotch
 
Posts: 17919
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 5:04 pm
Location: Twinsburg, OH
Favorite Player: Mango Hab
Least Favorite Player: Bob LaMonte

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby justmebd » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:42 am

Is it wrong that I'm giddy about seeing the Jets lose to Tim Tebow and getting to listen to Ryan try and throw more bluster out there just to keep from committing Hari Kari?

I predicted the Jets would miss the playoffs this year, so far that prediction is looking good.
User avatar
justmebd
 
Posts: 1530
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:27 pm
Location: Youngstown, OH
Favorite Player: Gary Gygax
Least Favorite Player: Heinz Field Occupant

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby justmebd » Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:46 am

leadpipe wrote:
hiko wrote:There's one really good player in this game, and that's Von Miller. A beast.

Tim Tebow is horrible, but what's even more horrible is the defense that can't stop him when he isn't even a pretend threat to throw the ball. Now I get to hear another week about how freakin' "magical" that douche is. Ugh.


That's the classic thing about Tebow though. He's playing to the minnions and the haters. He absolutely blows, yet he wins it in the end. Funny to listen to people go ape shit (in either direction) about the cat.

Also think it's funny he stepped on Rex Ryan's D, and now ole Rex has to eat it.

I also think Tebow is proving another thing. If the Browns had Fox instead of Shurmy, they'd have half a dozen wins right now.


I remember an Interview with Mangini at some point during his stay here where he said it was the Patriot offense he had installed. I then remember yelling "But you don't have Tom Brady!!! Design the offense for the players you DO have instead of the players you wish you had!!"

So we get rid of Mangini and what do we get, another offense designed for players we do not have on this squad.

I guess the WCO now can be considered the main ingredient that fuels the Factory of Sadness.
User avatar
justmebd
 
Posts: 1530
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:27 pm
Location: Youngstown, OH
Favorite Player: Gary Gygax
Least Favorite Player: Heinz Field Occupant

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby mitch » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:25 am

Gotta love the blurb from profootballtalk today about how much dirtysanchez blows

The headlines from Thursday night’s game will be about Tim Tebow. They also should be about the lack of progress by the Jets offense in year three of the Mark Sanchez era.

The Jets defense is the same as it ever was, a Super Bowl caliber group. It played a sensational game on Thursday night, and any moderately competent offense and quarterback would have easily put the Broncos away before Tebowmania took hold.

Consider: The Broncos started five possessions in Jets territory. They got three points out of those five chances.

In the 10 drives leading into Denver’s game-winning march, the Broncos had two first downs. Denver went three and out eight times in that span, including four straight times. It was as dominant a defensive performance as you’ll see.

At this point, all the Jets ask Mark Sanchez to do is not make the big mistake. He still made it, delivering seven points to the Broncos on a game-changing third quarter pick six. Throws like that make the Jets run on third down and punt the ball away instead of playing to win. Throws like that make Rex Ryan play it conservative even when the Jets face a terrible secondary like the Patriots. The Jets don’t trust their quarterback.

Sanchez is leading the same streaky offense with non-stop slants that puttered around .500 into December in 2009.

You can only hide your quarterback for so long, and Sanchez’s stagnation is plain for everyone to see..
User avatar
mitch
 
Posts: 429
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:52 am
Location: Triad, NC
Favorite Player: Joe Thomas
Least Favorite Player: Ben Toothlessburger

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby hiko » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:51 am

justmebd wrote:
leadpipe wrote:
hiko wrote:There's one really good player in this game, and that's Von Miller. A beast.

Tim Tebow is horrible, but what's even more horrible is the defense that can't stop him when he isn't even a pretend threat to throw the ball. Now I get to hear another week about how freakin' "magical" that douche is. Ugh.


That's the classic thing about Tebow though. He's playing to the minnions and the haters. He absolutely blows, yet he wins it in the end. Funny to listen to people go ape shit (in either direction) about the cat.

Also think it's funny he stepped on Rex Ryan's D, and now ole Rex has to eat it.

I also think Tebow is proving another thing. If the Browns had Fox instead of Shurmy, they'd have half a dozen wins right now.


I remember an Interview with Mangini at some point during his stay here where he said it was the Patriot offense he had installed. I then remember yelling "But you don't have Tom Brady!!! Design the offense for the players you DO have instead of the players you wish you had!!"

So we get rid of Mangini and what do we get, another offense designed for players we do not have on this squad.

I guess the WCO now can be considered the main ingredient that fuels the Factory of Sadness.


So the Broncos are right to keep running a retarded antiquated system that only works for the last drive of the game?

They're going to win a championship with a system that can be shut down for huge chunks of the game and the only reason they're not down 3 TD's is that their opponents' offenses have been inept?

Winning a couple games against bad teams is much better than trying to see if Tebow can actually play in an NFL system? Coddling Tebow with the triple-option system is helping with his development?

I may not defend Shurmur much, but I'd much prefer he try and see if Colt can run a pro-style system (complete with snaps under center) rather than coddle him with a system that won't ever get the Browns anywhere and will result in maybe a few more wins. Colt has to show he's got the skills to play NFL QB, and no amount of shotgun plays is gonna beat the big boys if he doesn't.

What the Broncos are doing is a nice story, but that story will end soon enough and they'll still have no idea if Tebow can play QB in the NFL (although they can ask me and I'll tell them - hells no).

Shurmur does need to get more creative/innovative to kick-start this thing, but I'd much rather have the way he's doing as opposed to pointless dog-and-pony show that Fox is throwing out there. It's like the Wildcat, defenses will figure it out damn soon and then they'll be right back where they started - zero.

The point is not to win now, it is to win a championship. If you aren't in the race to win it all, then everything you do should be done to get in that race. Winning now is a nice perk during that development, but, in the end, inconsequential.
Last edited by hiko on Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
hiko
 
Posts: 1052
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:13 am
Favorite Player: Gray
Least Favorite Player: Black and White

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby hiko » Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:53 am

mitch wrote:Gotta love the blurb from profootballtalk today about how much dirtysanchez blows

The headlines from Thursday night’s game will be about Tim Tebow. They also should be about the lack of progress by the Jets offense in year three of the Mark Sanchez era.

The Jets defense is the same as it ever was, a Super Bowl caliber group. It played a sensational game on Thursday night, and any moderately competent offense and quarterback would have easily put the Broncos away before Tebowmania took hold.

Consider: The Broncos started five possessions in Jets territory. They got three points out of those five chances.

In the 10 drives leading into Denver’s game-winning march, the Broncos had two first downs. Denver went three and out eight times in that span, including four straight times. It was as dominant a defensive performance as you’ll see.

At this point, all the Jets ask Mark Sanchez to do is not make the big mistake. He still made it, delivering seven points to the Broncos on a game-changing third quarter pick six. Throws like that make the Jets run on third down and punt the ball away instead of playing to win. Throws like that make Rex Ryan play it conservative even when the Jets face a terrible secondary like the Patriots. The Jets don’t trust their quarterback.

Sanchez is leading the same streaky offense with non-stop slants that puttered around .500 into December in 2009.

You can only hide your quarterback for so long, and Sanchez’s stagnation is plain for everyone to see..


The Jets' Defense isn't Super Bowl caliber this year. They've given up big points a bunch of times. They were just playing an Offense that is horrible.
User avatar
hiko
 
Posts: 1052
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:13 am
Favorite Player: Gray
Least Favorite Player: Black and White

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:01 am

Geez, and to think just a yr or two ago some of the same peeps were lining up to suck Sanchez's dick and bitching about the Browns passing him up....
Hope is a moment now long past
The Shadow of Death is the one I cast
Koo koo ka joob....I am the Walrus
User avatar
Fire Marshall Bill
 
Posts: 2691
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:00 pm
Favorite Player: Killer Bean
Least Favorite Player: Charcoal&Piss

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby DrPoove » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:02 am

leadpipe wrote:I also think Tebow is proving another thing. If the Browns had Fox instead of Shurmy, they'd have half a dozen wins right now.

It's a wonder what an experienced coach who can actually coach can do.

Shurmur may grow into a competant HC in time (50/50 right now IMHO) but right now he is swimming upstream sans a paddle.

Just to be able to use what you have and get something out of it is priceless.

Whomever said it is correct, Tebow may not be and never will be an high quality NFL QB, but anoyone who doesn't think that he can be an effective weapon in the NFL is kidding themselves.

My 10 pesos.

And Sanchez blows donkeys. Not literally because he is of Mexican heritage... Unless he used to hit Tiajuana regularly while USC was on break. (Yes I know LA is north of SD but you can still get there... allegedly.)

:bag:
"What is understood need not be discussed."
-Loren Adams
User avatar
DrPoove
Special Guest Referee
 
Posts: 2279
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:36 am
Location: Lakewood, OH
Favorite Player: Cleveland
Least Favorite Player: The Inbred

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:11 am

leadpipe wrote:3 comments.

1. Tebow is solidifying himself, by far, as the worst winning QB ever.


Depends on how many he ultimately wins

His goal is to not be this guy vvvvv

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Douglass
Hope is a moment now long past
The Shadow of Death is the one I cast
Koo koo ka joob....I am the Walrus
User avatar
Fire Marshall Bill
 
Posts: 2691
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:00 pm
Favorite Player: Killer Bean
Least Favorite Player: Charcoal&Piss

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:49 am

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:Geez, and to think just a yr or two ago some of the same peeps were lining up to suck Sanchez's dick and bitching about the Browns passing him up....


Gee, I don't remember that. Who are you referring to?
According to my sources CDT farts in the tub and bites the bubbles.
User avatar
motherscratcher
Little Larry Sellers
 
Posts: 7748
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:14 pm
Location: La La Land
Favorite Player: Ernie Camacho
Least Favorite Player: Jose Mesa

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:56 am

justmebd wrote:I remember an Interview with Mangini at some point during his stay here where he said it was the Patriot offense he had installed. I then remember yelling "But you don't have Tom Brady!!! Design the offense for the players you DO have instead of the players you wish you had!!"

So we get rid of Mangini and what do we get, another offense designed for players we do not have on this squad.

I guess the WCO now can be considered the main ingredient that fuels the Factory of Sadness.


I get that, and there is obviously some logic to it. But it seems like that is more of a complaint for when you have a talented team in place. The Browns don't have a talented team in place no matter what system they are running. I think Heckgren understands that as much as anyone.

I don't think you can or should change your system every season because what little talent you have is a little bit different.

I think you kind of HAVE to do it this way. Pick a system you think will be successful; build to that system. It takes time. It is taking time. I know we are all sick of hearing that. But being sick of it doesn't make it any less true.

Now, as far as the execution of that plan goes, I think there is plenty to bitch about there. But the approach is sound. I don't know how you do it any other way, really.
According to my sources CDT farts in the tub and bites the bubbles.
User avatar
motherscratcher
Little Larry Sellers
 
Posts: 7748
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:14 pm
Location: La La Land
Favorite Player: Ernie Camacho
Least Favorite Player: Jose Mesa

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:08 am

motherscratcher wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:Geez, and to think just a yr or two ago some of the same peeps were lining up to suck Sanchez's dick and bitching about the Browns passing him up....


Gee, I don't remember that. Who are you referring to?


Mostly SD :lmfao: but, IIRC, one or two others as well
Hope is a moment now long past
The Shadow of Death is the one I cast
Koo koo ka joob....I am the Walrus
User avatar
Fire Marshall Bill
 
Posts: 2691
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:00 pm
Favorite Player: Killer Bean
Least Favorite Player: Charcoal&Piss

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby hiko » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:43 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
justmebd wrote:I remember an Interview with Mangini at some point during his stay here where he said it was the Patriot offense he had installed. I then remember yelling "But you don't have Tom Brady!!! Design the offense for the players you DO have instead of the players you wish you had!!"

So we get rid of Mangini and what do we get, another offense designed for players we do not have on this squad.

I guess the WCO now can be considered the main ingredient that fuels the Factory of Sadness.


I get that, and there is obviously some logic to it. But it seems like that is more of a complaint for when you have a talented team in place. The Browns don't have a talented team in place no matter what system they are running. I think Heckgren understands that as much as anyone.

I don't think you can or should change your system every season because what little talent you have is a little bit different.

I think you kind of HAVE to do it this way. Pick a system you think will be successful; build to that system. It takes time. It is taking time. I know we are all sick of hearing that. But being sick of it doesn't make it any less true.

Now, as far as the execution of that plan goes, I think there is plenty to bitch about there. But the approach is sound. I don't know how you do it any other way, really.


Thank you.
User avatar
hiko
 
Posts: 1052
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:13 am
Favorite Player: Gray
Least Favorite Player: Black and White

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby idoctribefan » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:57 pm

hiko wrote:So the Broncos are right to keep running a retarded antiquated system that only works for the last drive of the game?

They're going to win a championship with a system that can be shut down for huge chunks of the game and the only reason they're not down 3 TD's is that their opponents' offenses have been inept?

Winning a couple games against bad teams is much better than trying to see if Tebow can actually play in an NFL system? Coddling Tebow with the triple-option system is helping with his development?

I may not defend Shurmur much, but I'd much prefer he try and see if Colt can run a pro-style system (complete with snaps under center) rather than coddle him with a system that won't ever get the Browns anywhere and will result in maybe a few more wins. Colt has to show he's got the skills to play NFL QB, and no amount of shotgun plays is gonna beat the big boys if he doesn't.

What the Broncos are doing is a nice story, but that story will end soon enough and they'll still have no idea if Tebow can play QB in the NFL (although they can ask me and I'll tell them - hells no).

Shurmur does need to get more creative/innovative to kick-start this thing, but I'd much rather have the way he's doing as opposed to pointless dog-and-pony show that Fox is throwing out there. It's like the Wildcat, defenses will figure it out damn soon and then they'll be right back where they started - zero.

The point is not to win now, it is to win a championship. If you aren't in the race to win it all, then everything you do should be done to get in that race. Winning now is a nice perk during that development, but, in the end, inconsequential.


I agree with much of what you say in here but two things:

A) The Broncos coaching staff is coaching the $h!t outta this team right now. The defense is winning these ballgames for them, and the offensive coaches (as someone said previously in the thread) are tailoring these new wrinkles to fit the personnel that they have. Tebow looked pretty bad the first 3 quarters of that ballgame, but he didn't make any mistakes (the Trent Dilfer circa 2000 method of QBing). Should they play Brady Quinn who has shown that he is not an NFL starting QB? Or should they play Orton who admittedly is the best "Typical QB" of the bunch but was 1-4 as a starter and had the team at the bottom of the crummy AFC West? You're right, it is (almost) all about winning championships. But the 53 players and 20-some coaches on that Denver sideline are trying to win every game by any means necessary. If they have to trot out that dog-and-pony show on offense to keep putting up W's then they should do it.

B) Once again I agree it's (almost) all about winning championships, but it's also about being entertained. Would you rather have paid $40 to be in that electric atmosphere in Denver last night, or would you rather pay $40 to go sit in the Upper Dawg Pound and watch Pat Shurmur and the Browns offense shit their collective pants for 3 hours? The Broncos entertained me last night and all I had to do was sit in my warm man-cave and drink Christmas Ale at $2 a pop instead of on a cold metal bench in 40-degree weather drinking a $9 Bud Light. For the money I spend on the Cleveland Browns, I don't even expect a championship...I'm 29 years old and I don't expect to ever see one! What I do expect is to be treated to at least a few minutes of entertainment somewhere within a 3-hour football game. Only 1 team can win a championship each year, but there are 32 fan bases that pay millions of dollars in hard-earned dollars to be entertained. You ask 100 Bronco Fans and 100 Brown Fans as they exit the stadium if they think their dollars are well-spent and the disparity in their answers will be extreme. Are the Broncos that much closer than the Browns to winning a championship?...Probably not, but their games are a helluva lot more fun to watch at this point.
"And three of the better guys in franchise history, Daugherty, Z and now Kyrie could get hurt in a rubber room full of cotton balls." - Leadpipe
User avatar
idoctribefan
 
Posts: 1218
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:35 pm
Location: NE Ohio
Favorite Player: Joe Haden
Least Favorite Player: #6

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:10 pm

^^^^point B is the exact reason that I hope Holmgren and Heckert don't give half a shit what the fans want, think, or find entertaining.
According to my sources CDT farts in the tub and bites the bubbles.
User avatar
motherscratcher
Little Larry Sellers
 
Posts: 7748
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:14 pm
Location: La La Land
Favorite Player: Ernie Camacho
Least Favorite Player: Jose Mesa

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby dpdad » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:19 pm

The Broncos have more wins then the Browns cause they do what good coaches/teams do - they adjusted their philosphy to who they have.


Exactly right. Kudos to the Denver coaching staff. And good luck to Tebow in the future. I will be rooting for him.
dpdad
 
Posts: 781
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:42 am
Location: Independence, Ohio

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby JCoz » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:24 pm

motherscratcher wrote:^^^^point B is the exact reason that I hope Holmgren and Heckert don't give half a shit what the fans want, think, or find entertaining.


Which is perfectly fine (if you have confidence they are going in the right direction), as long as they dont expect me watch the horrendous product they are putting out on Sundays. I'm done for the season. First time ever. Tuned out at halftime 2 weeks ago, and last week just passed on watching entirely. I didn't decide to do something else, I just decided to watch competent football teams play. And it was an easy decision. Far easier than it ever should be.
User avatar
JCoz
Donnie, you're out of your element
 
Posts: 4158
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:57 am
Favorite Player: Competency
Least Favorite Player: Gene Smith

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby hiko » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:26 pm

idoctribefan wrote:A) The Broncos coaching staff is coaching the $h!t outta this team right now. The defense is winning these ballgames for them, and the offensive coaches (as someone said previously in the thread) are tailoring these new wrinkles to fit the personnel that they have. Tebow looked pretty bad the first 3 quarters of that ballgame, but he didn't make any mistakes (the Trent Dilfer circa 2000 method of QBing). Should they play Brady Quinn who has shown that he is not an NFL starting QB? Or should they play Orton who admittedly is the best "Typical QB" of the bunch but was 1-4 as a starter and had the team at the bottom of the crummy AFC West? You're right, it is (almost) all about winning championships. But the 53 players and 20-some coaches on that Denver sideline are trying to win every game by any means necessary. If they have to trot out that dog-and-pony show on offense to keep putting up W's then they should do it.


What they should do with their First Round investment is to see if he can play QB at the pro level, even if that means they look like shit and lose some close games against bad teams that they might win if they ran the triple option. Can a pro offense where he has to take snaps under center and make reads and progressions and make pro-quality passes really be any more ineffective than the crap offense they were playing for 95% of that game? Go ahead and run your stupid college bullshit on the last drive if you must, but try to see if you can develop/salvage the guy as an NFL QB the rest of the time. (to their credit, it seemed that's kind of what they were trying to do)

idoctribefan wrote:B) Once again I agree it's (almost) all about winning championships, but it's also about being entertained. Would you rather have paid $40 to be in that electric atmosphere in Denver last night, or would you rather pay $40 to go sit in the Upper Dawg Pound and watch Pat Shurmur and the Browns offense shit their collective pants for 3 hours? The Broncos entertained me last night and all I had to do was sit in my warm man-cave and drink Christmas Ale at $2 a pop instead of on a cold metal bench in 40-degree weather drinking a $9 Bud Light. For the money I spend on the Cleveland Browns, I don't even expect a championship...I'm 29 years old and I don't expect to ever see one! What I do expect is to be treated to at least a few minutes of entertainment somewhere within a 3-hour football game. Only 1 team can win a championship each year, but there are 32 fan bases that pay millions of dollars in hard-earned dollars to be entertained. You ask 100 Bronco Fans and 100 Brown Fans as they exit the stadium if they think their dollars are well-spent and the disparity in their answers will be extreme. Are the Broncos that much closer than the Browns to winning a championship?...Probably not, but their games are a helluva lot more fun to watch at this point.


You are more easily entertained than I am, my friend. That game was fucking AWFUL. An AWFUL game between 2 mediocre-to-shitty teams. It was no different than watching the Browns-Seahawks game. The crowd was into it only at the end, and that's b/c they're morons that are drinking the Tebow "he's a winner!" kool-aid. They'll be booing his ass in 3 weeks.

The only reason I kept watching that travesty to offensive football is because I was hoping to see Tebow cry.

I pay my hard-earned dollars just like anyone else, and, yes, I want my team to win. But I don't really give a shit about sacrificing development for 6-10 when all it will get me is a couple more 6-10 "we still don't know what we have in Colt" years.

Find out if the QB can run a pro system capable of winning a SB. If he can't, find one that can. If he can, move forward from there.

Cuz a QB that can only run the option or can only be effective from the shotgun ain't gonna get you a ring.
User avatar
hiko
 
Posts: 1052
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:13 am
Favorite Player: Gray
Least Favorite Player: Black and White

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby hiko » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:32 pm

JCoz wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:^^^^point B is the exact reason that I hope Holmgren and Heckert don't give half a shit what the fans want, think, or find entertaining.


Which is perfectly fine (if you have confidence they are going in the right direction), as long as they dont expect me watch the horrendous product they are putting out on Sundays. I'm done for the season. First time ever. Tuned out at halftime 2 weeks ago, and last week just passed on watching entirely. I didn't decide to do something else, I just decided to watch competent football teams play. And it was an easy decision. Far easier than it ever should be.


Apparently your not watching hasn't prevented you from commenting on it.

PS - You're referring to the Jets-Broncos as "competent football teams"? :lmfao:

Sounds like "taking-my-ball-and-going-home" bullshit to me.
User avatar
hiko
 
Posts: 1052
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:13 am
Favorite Player: Gray
Least Favorite Player: Black and White

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:57 pm

JCoz wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:^^^^point B is the exact reason that I hope Holmgren and Heckert don't give half a shit what the fans want, think, or find entertaining.


Which is perfectly fine (if you have confidence they are going in the right direction), as long as they dont expect me watch the horrendous product they are putting out on Sundays. I'm done for the season. First time ever. Tuned out at halftime 2 weeks ago, and last week just passed on watching entirely. I didn't decide to do something else, I just decided to watch competent football teams play. And it was an easy decision. Far easier than it ever should be.


I get that. And go back and check the Last game thread to see how excited I am about this iteration of Browns football. I'm as frustrated and pissed as anyone.

What I'm say, though, is that the process is correct, even if the execution has left me uninspired. Enjoyable, exciting football is fine but shouldn't be a goal in and of itself. Winning anchampionship should be the goal. The only goal. Id rather watch boring and shit football on the way to a championship than an exciting few games on the way to the middle.

Earlier, someone mentioned that the Browns and Broncos are both not close to winning a championship. true, but I would argue that the Browns are closer,even though they completely suck and there is no end in site. At least the Browns have a plan, that if executed properly, has the possibility of resulting in a championship at some point. It is possible.

I would argue that it is impossible for the Broncos to woman eventual championshipnwith Tebow running a college offense, despite the fact that last night was exciting for a few minutes. They are just spinning their wheels.
According to my sources CDT farts in the tub and bites the bubbles.
User avatar
motherscratcher
Little Larry Sellers
 
Posts: 7748
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:14 pm
Location: La La Land
Favorite Player: Ernie Camacho
Least Favorite Player: Jose Mesa

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby Triple-S » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:00 pm

Cam Newton is better than Tom Treebow.

As is RGIII. Both would be far more entertaining to watch for the full game. I think you know where I'm going with this...Draft RGIII.
Swerb wrote:Go start a blog if you want to tell the world your incomprehendible ramblings.


Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have a big arm and can throw the ball pretty damn far...... maybe even over those moutains. The Browns should sign me, i'll let you all in locker room to drink beer. Then we can all go out the parking lot to watch me do motorcycle stunts.
User avatar
Triple-S
All-time leader in moral victories
 
Posts: 6380
Joined: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:26 pm
Location: Kent-Green, Ohio
Favorite Player: Yuengling
Least Favorite Player: Nati Light.

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby hiko » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:01 pm

^^^^^^THIS (pointing at Mother's post)

This Broncos "plan" is going nowhere but 7-9, 7-9, 5-11, draft another QB.
User avatar
hiko
 
Posts: 1052
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:13 am
Favorite Player: Gray
Least Favorite Player: Black and White

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:08 pm

BTW, when I post from my iPad, the autocorrect drives me batshit crazy. But I think you guys know what I'm trying to say.
According to my sources CDT farts in the tub and bites the bubbles.
User avatar
motherscratcher
Little Larry Sellers
 
Posts: 7748
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:14 pm
Location: La La Land
Favorite Player: Ernie Camacho
Least Favorite Player: Jose Mesa

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:24 pm

motherscratcher wrote:^^^^point B is the exact reason that I hope Holmgren and Heckert don't give half a shit what the fans want, think, or find entertaining.


My drafts have been head and shoulders better than the Browns'. I'm clearly a know-nothing chucklefuck, but I look like Nostradamus comparatively.
This natural coozy comes free with every Miller Time
Image
User avatar
Erie Warrior
Goose Slayer
 
Posts: 6519
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:50 pm
Location: Hampton, VA
Favorite Player: 1995 Indians
Least Favorite Player: Global Warming

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby hiko » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:25 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:^^^^point B is the exact reason that I hope Holmgren and Heckert don't give half a shit what the fans want, think, or find entertaining.


My drafts have been head and shoulders better than the Browns'. I'm clearly a know-nothing chucklefuck, but I look like Nostradamus comparatively.


What were your drafts the last 2 years?
User avatar
hiko
 
Posts: 1052
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:13 am
Favorite Player: Gray
Least Favorite Player: Black and White

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby fundamentals » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:37 pm

Did you ever know your my Tebow? Your quarterbacking should be illegal. :lmfao:

Watching the end of that game was quite satisfying. Nice job by the Jets to dial in a blitz (heard many say it was the only one all game, I can't recall) and lose containment of him. Love watching Rex Ryan and Sanchez meltdown. Awesome. :woot:
"It's all about winning for me, and I think the Cavs are committed to doing that," he said. "But at the same time I've given myself options to this point, and like I said before, me and my team, we have a game plan that we're going to execute, and we'll see what we get."

"We had a great time together."
fundamentals
Goodwill Ambassador
 
Posts: 2915
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:59 pm
Favorite Player: Mariano Rivera
Least Favorite Player: Rex Ryan

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby JCoz » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:51 pm

hiko wrote:Apparently your not watching hasn't prevented you from commenting on it.

PS - You're referring to the Jets-Broncos as "competent football teams"? :lmfao:

Sounds like "taking-my-ball-and-going-home" bullshit to me.


No I'm not reffering the Jets and Broncos as competant teams. How would I be watching Jets/Broncos in lieu of the Browns-Rams?

I realize that is what the thread title is but Mothers point was more of a general one and so was mine.

Take my ball and go home?I haven't prevented the browns from continuing to do whatever the fuck they want to call what they are doing on Sundays. I didn't say I stopped paying attention to them or being a Browns fan in general. I'm saying I dont owe them a set of eyeballs on Sundays. Its enough that I've already given them my dollars via the Sunday Ticket I pay for specifically so I can watch the Browns every year. I don't think I'm going to be missing much by seeing the 30 second highlight clip and reading articles for the rest of the season.
User avatar
JCoz
Donnie, you're out of your element
 
Posts: 4158
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:57 am
Favorite Player: Competency
Least Favorite Player: Gene Smith

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby JCoz » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:06 pm

motherscratcher wrote:I get that. And go back and check the Last game thread to see how excited I am about this iteration of Browns football. I'm as frustrated and pissed as anyone.

Earlier, someone mentioned that the Browns and Broncos are both not close to winning a championship. true, but I would argue that the Browns are closer,even though they completely suck and there is no end in site. At least the Browns have a plan, that if executed properly, has the possibility of resulting in a championship at some point. It is possible.

I would argue that it is impossible for the Broncos to woman eventual championshipnwith Tebow running a college offense, despite the fact that last night was exciting for a few minutes. They are just spinning their wheels.


I agree in that I’d in no way rather be running the option with Tim Tebow instead. And that winning a few games just for the sake of entertainment isnt in the best interest of the Browns.
User avatar
JCoz
Donnie, you're out of your element
 
Posts: 4158
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:57 am
Favorite Player: Competency
Least Favorite Player: Gene Smith

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby idoctribefan » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:08 pm

hiko wrote:
idoctribefan wrote:A) The Broncos coaching staff is coaching the $h!t outta this team right now. The defense is winning these ballgames for them, and the offensive coaches (as someone said previously in the thread) are tailoring these new wrinkles to fit the personnel that they have. Tebow looked pretty bad the first 3 quarters of that ballgame, but he didn't make any mistakes (the Trent Dilfer circa 2000 method of QBing). Should they play Brady Quinn who has shown that he is not an NFL starting QB? Or should they play Orton who admittedly is the best "Typical QB" of the bunch but was 1-4 as a starter and had the team at the bottom of the crummy AFC West? You're right, it is (almost) all about winning championships. But the 53 players and 20-some coaches on that Denver sideline are trying to win every game by any means necessary. If they have to trot out that dog-and-pony show on offense to keep putting up W's then they should do it.


What they should do with their First Round investment is to see if he can play QB at the pro level, even if that means they look like shit and lose some close games against bad teams that they might win if they ran the triple option. Can a pro offense where he has to take snaps under center and make reads and progressions and make pro-quality passes really be any more ineffective than the crap offense they were playing for 95% of that game? Go ahead and run your stupid college bullshit on the last drive if you must, but try to see if you can develop/salvage the guy as an NFL QB the rest of the time. (to their credit, it seemed that's kind of what they were trying to do)


So you're saying that they should sacrifice a chance of making the playoffs now to plan for the future? If I'm Champ Bailey or Brian Dawkins at the tail-end of my career, I wanna do everything I can to win NOW. And I want my coaching staff to do everything it can to win now.

Don't get me wrong, Hiko....I agree with a lot of what you're saying. If the Broncos were 1-9 then absolutely they should just see if Tim Tebow can be "the guy" for years to come in a pro-style offense. But the people in that organization probably do think they can win a Super Bowl this year with this team (maybe not Elway, he didn't look all that excited after that game-winning TD haha). So they want to do whatever is necessary to win each week. Take a look at their schedule and they've got a shot to win every one of their remaining games. They've got the Bears and Pats, but both in Denver. They win the shitty AFC West and get a home playoff game, then get a good matchup in the playoffs, who knows? You and I don't think it'll happen but that organization thinks it can. If they're sitting at 5-9 in four weeks then absolutely cut that Florida-style spread offense outta the plan. But they're getting the job done with it currently.
"And three of the better guys in franchise history, Daugherty, Z and now Kyrie could get hurt in a rubber room full of cotton balls." - Leadpipe
User avatar
idoctribefan
 
Posts: 1218
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:35 pm
Location: NE Ohio
Favorite Player: Joe Haden
Least Favorite Player: #6

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby HoodooMan » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:10 pm

Disclaimer #1: I was goofy enough to, several times in the past, want Urban Meyer to be hired as the Browns HC and experiment with the spread option at the NFL level.

Disclaimer #2: I turned on the TV last night just in time for that 95 yard drive, so I didn't see any of the suck that preceded it.

Still, I think this is a very interesting story. I hear/see/read ESPN heads scoffing left & right, saying it's just like the Wildcat and it won't last, and I agree that it's a lot like the Wildcat (the early success of which led to the content of Disclaimer #1), but I'm not so sure it won't last. (Though, I suspect it probably won't last with Tebow.) What killed the Wildcat was that it became clear Ronnie Brown & Co. were rarely threats to throw the football. What initially made the Wildcat work--simple math!--still holds true for the spread option, and it seems to me that it could be sustainable if you have someone back there who can even throw it semi-competently, sometimesish.

Ever since I first started watching football, these two things have been true:

True Thing #1: Running QBs are often very difficult to defend

True Thing #2: No one knows WTF to do with a running QB in any kind of organized/schemed way.

It seems entirely possible to me that, rather than "stupid college bullshit," the spread option could finally be the continuation of #1 and the solution to #2. It helps to have a bigger, more physical/durable running QB like Newton & Tebow. I think it'd also probably help to have a smaller & faster change of pace QB in this kind of system the same way you have a change of pace RB now. And I tend to think that football will probably at some point (if not now) move in the direction of at least further blurring the lines between the QB & RB positions if not conflating the them altogether.
Q: What is the best/craziest location you've ever gotten lucky A: Mens room. Death Valley. (Fire Marshall Bill, 08/13/10)

...doesn't mean we cannot call you a spade when you are one. (donnyunitas, 10/21/09)

Plus it's kinda personal for me... I have a lot of family and friends who are Ducks... (angrybeaver, 11/08/09)
User avatar
HoodooMan
The King
 
Posts: 1735
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2006 12:04 pm
Favorite Player: Big_Lu
Least Favorite Player: Foldtop Sandwich Bag

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby JCoz » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:25 pm

If anyone in the NFL drafted Tebow to play in a "real" pro offense, then they were morons.

I'm not of the belief that its going to work, which is why I wouldn't want to be the broncos running the option, but you know what DEFINITELY won't work? Tim Tebow running a WCO or pretty much any other conventional Pro Offense.

So if you drafted him, I sure as hell hope it would have been to do something unique among NFL teams, because what's clearly much dumber is someone drafting him to run an offense like Brady or Rodgers. And yah, now these are guys who didn't draft him, but regardless of whether you agree or disagree on that type of systems chance at NFL success, this is probably what Tebows shot at QB in the NFL needed to look like.
Last edited by JCoz on Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
JCoz
Donnie, you're out of your element
 
Posts: 4158
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:57 am
Favorite Player: Competency
Least Favorite Player: Gene Smith

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby hiko » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:25 pm

JCoz wrote:
hiko wrote:Apparently your not watching hasn't prevented you from commenting on it.

PS - You're referring to the Jets-Broncos as "competent football teams"? :lmfao:

Sounds like "taking-my-ball-and-going-home" bullshit to me.


No I'm not reffering the Jets and Broncos as competant teams. How would I be watching Jets/Broncos in lieu of the Browns-Rams?

I realize that is what the thread title is but Mothers point was more of a general one and so was mine.

Take my ball and go home?I haven't prevented the browns from continuing to do whatever the fuck they want to call what they are doing on Sundays. I didn't say I stopped paying attention to them or being a Browns fan in general. I'm saying I dont owe them a set of eyeballs on Sundays. Its enough that I've already given them my dollars via the Sunday Ticket I pay for specifically so I can watch the Browns every year. I don't think I'm going to be missing much by seeing the 30 second highlight clip and reading articles for the rest of the season.


No, you have every right to not watch. I've done it many times - like the last few games of 2008 (brrrrr...) Sometimes that shit is unwatchable. Maybe I jumped the gun a bit - your post just sounded a bit "I'm Done!", which people say from time to time and is just too dramatic for my taste.

It also sounded like you were saying that if the Browns were doing what Denver is doing, you'd watch, which is also something I'd call crazy.
User avatar
hiko
 
Posts: 1052
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:13 am
Favorite Player: Gray
Least Favorite Player: Black and White

Re: Good God Almighty

Unread postby JCoz » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:27 pm

I gotcha Hiko, but no, I was in bed last night for Timmy's drive.
User avatar
JCoz
Donnie, you're out of your element
 
Posts: 4158
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:57 am
Favorite Player: Competency
Least Favorite Player: Gene Smith

Next

Return to Cleveland Browns & The NFL

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 3 guests

Who is online

In total there are 4 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 3 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 181 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:50 pm

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 3 guests