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Issue 2 shot down, Issue 3 passes

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Issue 2 shot down, Issue 3 passes

Unread postby swerb » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:41 pm

Both by wide margins.

One win for the right, one for the left. OH entrenches itself as one of the key 2-3 swing states next Nov.

12 elections in a row, whoever has won OH has won the Presidency. Will be no different next Nov.
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Re: Issue 2 shot down, Issue 3 passes

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:10 pm

I'm shocked at how big 2 went down.
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Re: Issue 2 shot down, Issue 3 passes

Unread postby swerb » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:18 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I'm shocked at how big 2 went down.

Not me. Was easy to see coming. Outspent by more than 3 to 1. And even the people supporting Issue 2 were terrified to put out a lawn sign or say anything.

Thought big labor did an excellent job in ads playing to populist themes through their advertising and inspiring people who otherwise would have sat home in an off election year to get off their asses and go vote against it.

Kasich misplayed this one badly, from day one. Many tactical errors.
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Re: Issue 2 shot down, Issue 3 passes

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:29 pm

Because Kasich has the tactical ability of a tree sloth. I'm not sure why anyone would be scared to put a pro issue 2 sign out. No sane person could possibly think the cops or firefighters would refuse services over a damn lawn sign.
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Re: Issue 2 shot down, Issue 3 passes

Unread postby Cease » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:54 am

I thought that if it was a very close vote, Columbus would put up another version of SB5 (call it SB6?), this time without including police and fire. Now, I'm not so sure they will.
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Re: Issue 2 shot down, Issue 3 passes

Unread postby comish » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:42 pm

They don't need to honestly. With school levies tumbling like a Browns quarterback, districts will be forced to do all kinds of slashing and burning....most of which will get felt by the staff who are the biggest cost to those districts.

What Columbus NEEDS TO DO, is fix the un-constitutional school funding formula like they were told to do since like the Reagan administration.

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Re: Issue 2 shot down, Issue 3 passes

Unread postby Ziner » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:43 pm

Of all the taxes you give people a direct vote on, it is schools? Not to mention it doesnt even work. My property taxes in Colorado are a third to a quarter of what they would be in Ohio
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Re: Issue 2 shot down, Issue 3 passes

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:12 pm

Anti-government on both accounts. Ohioans are getting to the point where they simply want to be left alone. I almost thought about going to vote when I saw what Issue 3 was, seeing as how the news never mentioned anything other than Issue 2 so I had no idea we had a third issue.

I didn't want to leave it up to the idiot voting base of this state. Guess they actually proved their worth.

And then, on the same day SB5 gets voted down, Cleveland mayor Frank Jackson announces that fire and EMS will be trained to do both jobs so they can be interchangeable based on who is on scene first, giving the line of how they can provide the best immediate care.

I see right through that. If you train them to do both, you need fewer fire and fewer EMS. So, in two years once this change is fully implemented, they'll just start cutting jobs in both fields. You know, which Issue 2 was supposed to prevent.
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Re: Issue 2 shot down, Issue 3 passes

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:36 pm

I thought it would be closer as polls on complicated state issues have huge margins of error. As many of my friends from across the aisle stated in earlier threads Kasich overreached, and it may very well leave a lasting injury to him as Governor. The way Obamacare was pushed through was similar to SB5. While I still see aspects of SB5 as positive (merit over seniority) for the state, the issues should have been taken peiece by piece. If they had a positive result, you can continue reform.

Most unions prefer layoffs to pay cuts. So all those ads about SB5 causing cuts, when it was an attempt to lower cost per employee, had me a bit baffled. Sloth is the correct assesment of Kasich's and the Republicans handling of this...
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Re: Issue 2 shot down, Issue 3 passes

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:20 pm

skatingtripods wrote:Cleveland mayor Frank Jackson announces that fire and EMS will be trained to do both jobs so they can be interchangeable based on who is on scene first, giving the line of how they can provide the best immediate care.

I see right through that. If you train them to do both, you need fewer fire and fewer EMS. So, in two years once this change is fully implemented, they'll just start cutting jobs in both fields. You know, which Issue 2 was supposed to prevent.


Probably. But plenty of cities (I won't say most, cuz I don't have the numbers, but I'll bet it's most) have combined EMS/firefighters. So this is a step in the right direction.

I once read a study which said people who buy parenting books aren't better parents than those who don't. But being the type of person who reads parenting books makes you apt to be a better parent than the type who doesn't want these books. Similar to Issue 2, I don't believe SB 5 failed b/c the union side raised more money. I believe the amount of money raised on each side reflected the support for each side. Same with the yard signs. There were few pro-SB 5 signs because there were few pro-SB 5 voters, not because people were afraid of having them.
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Re: Issue 2 shot down, Issue 3 passes

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:24 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:Cleveland mayor Frank Jackson announces that fire and EMS will be trained to do both jobs so they can be interchangeable based on who is on scene first, giving the line of how they can provide the best immediate care.

I see right through that. If you train them to do both, you need fewer fire and fewer EMS. So, in two years once this change is fully implemented, they'll just start cutting jobs in both fields. You know, which Issue 2 was supposed to prevent.


Probably. But plenty of cities (I won't say most, cuz I don't have the numbers, but I'll bet it's most) have combined EMS/firefighters. So this is a step in the right direction.

I once read a study which said people who buy parenting books aren't better parents than those who don't. But being the type of person who reads parenting books makes you apt to be a better parent than the type who doesn't want these books. Similar to Issue 2, I don't believe SB 5 failed b/c the union side raised more money. I believe the amount of money raised on each side reflected the support for each side. Same with the yard signs. There were few pro-SB 5 signs because there were few pro-SB 5 voters, not because people were afraid of having them.

LOL, let me know your opinion of this change after you need the help of a Fireman.

Cleveland cannot afford a significant cut back in the number of LEGIT fireman, they've had one of the country's busiest company's for many years.
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Re: Issue 2 shot down, Issue 3 passes

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:58 pm

FUDU wrote:
GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:Cleveland mayor Frank Jackson announces that fire and EMS will be trained to do both jobs so they can be interchangeable based on who is on scene first, giving the line of how they can provide the best immediate care.

I see right through that. If you train them to do both, you need fewer fire and fewer EMS. So, in two years once this change is fully implemented, they'll just start cutting jobs in both fields. You know, which Issue 2 was supposed to prevent.


Probably. But plenty of cities (I won't say most, cuz I don't have the numbers, but I'll bet it's most) have combined EMS/firefighters. So this is a step in the right direction.

I once read a study which said people who buy parenting books aren't better parents than those who don't. But being the type of person who reads parenting books makes you apt to be a better parent than the type who doesn't want these books. Similar to Issue 2, I don't believe SB 5 failed b/c the union side raised more money. I believe the amount of money raised on each side reflected the support for each side. Same with the yard signs. There were few pro-SB 5 signs because there were few pro-SB 5 voters, not because people were afraid of having them.

LOL, let me know your opinion of this change after you need the help of a Fireman.

Cleveland cannot afford a significant cut back in the number of LEGIT fireman, they've had one of the country's busiest company's for many years.


LOL my brother is a fireman/paramedic in the burbs and a former Cleveland EMS worker. Since I needed his help carrying beer from the bar last weekend, my opinion hasn't changed.
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Re: Issue 2 shot down, Issue 3 passes

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:28 pm

And I'll be clearer on my opinion:

It appears to me that many cities have paramedics/firefighters. It appears to me that there are so many of these that perhaps this is how the majority of cities do it. Since this appears to be effective for these cities, it is a good idea for the City of Cleveland to also have paramedics/firefighters.

This does not mean I think Cleveland should have less paramedics and firefighters. Cleveland will probably have less paramedics and firefighters regardless of whether or not they combine departments.
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Re: Issue 2 shot down, Issue 3 passes

Unread postby comish » Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:46 pm

Orenthal wrote:I thought it would be closer as polls on complicated state issues have huge margins of error. As many of my friends from across the aisle stated in earlier threads Kasich overreached, and it may very well leave a lasting injury to him as Governor. The way Obamacare was pushed through was similar to SB5. While I still see aspects of SB5 as positive (merit over seniority) for the state, the issues should have been taken peiece by piece. If they had a positive result, you can continue reform.

Most unions prefer layoffs to pay cuts. So all those ads about SB5 causing cuts, when it was an attempt to lower cost per employee, had me a bit baffled. Sloth is the correct assesment of Kasich's and the Republicans handling of this...


If you approve of this for teachers you got your wish because King John snuck it through with the budget bill (HB 153).....chaos soon to ensue
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Re: Issue 2 shot down, Issue 3 passes

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:52 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:And I'll be clearer on my opinion:

It appears to me that many cities have paramedics/firefighters. It appears to me that there are so many of these that perhaps this is how the majority of cities do it. Since this appears to be effective for these cities, it is a good idea for the City of Cleveland to also have paramedics/firefighters.

This does not mean I think Cleveland should have less paramedics and firefighters. Cleveland will probably have less paramedics and firefighters regardless of whether or not they combine departments.

I don't think it is an applicable apples to apples approach though. CTown is a whole different animal when it comes to safety forces as opposed to her suburbs.

I'm not knocking any fireman in any suburb (they do something I don't and cannot) but in general they see jack squat in terms of fires compared to CTown fireman, and I know some CTown fireman refer to suburban fireman as "just" paramedics due to those differences. Some are serious some just kid. Is what it is.
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Re: Issue 2 shot down, Issue 3 passes

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:01 pm

So much for the "silent majority"..... I heard so much about 'em, how they would all show up and back Kasich's water head plan. Whaaaa happen?
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Re: Issue 2 shot down, Issue 3 passes

Unread postby comish » Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:11 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:So much for the "silent majority"..... I heard so much about 'em, how they would all show up and back Kasich's water head plan. Whaaaa happen?


They stayed silent? :bag:
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Re: Issue 2 shot down, Issue 3 passes

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:19 pm

Most of them stayed home because TCM was running a Matlock marathon.
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Re: Issue 2 shot down, Issue 3 passes

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:54 pm

FUDU wrote:
GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:And I'll be clearer on my opinion:

It appears to me that many cities have paramedics/firefighters. It appears to me that there are so many of these that perhaps this is how the majority of cities do it. Since this appears to be effective for these cities, it is a good idea for the City of Cleveland to also have paramedics/firefighters.

This does not mean I think Cleveland should have less paramedics and firefighters. Cleveland will probably have less paramedics and firefighters regardless of whether or not they combine departments.

I don't think it is an applicable apples to apples approach though. CTown is a whole different animal when it comes to safety forces as opposed to her suburbs.

I'm not knocking any fireman in any suburb (they do something I don't and cannot) but in general they see jack squat in terms of fires compared to CTown fireman, and I know some CTown fireman refer to suburban fireman as "just" paramedics due to those differences. Some are serious some just kid. Is what it is.


You may be right. You probably know more about the specifics than I do. I just know from the periphery. Perhaps a better comparison would be how Cleveland runs it services vs. how other large cities run theirs. I do know from having a little bit of inside info on some of these union things that there are plenty of yappers who have no clue what they are talking about when they talk about the same things. So I may very well not know what I am talking about on this topic.

The perception, though, is that b/c it works for the suburbs it would work for the cities. As you say, when you get into the specifics of what the suburban people do vs. the urban people, perception might not be reality. My brother does seem to be involved in more paramadic-related things than fires based on what he tells me, but I don't know how those numbers compare to Cleveland.
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Re: Issue 2 shot down, Issue 3 passes

Unread postby comish » Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:11 pm

Orenthal wrote:I thought it would be closer as polls on complicated state issues have huge margins of error. As many of my friends from across the aisle stated in earlier threads Kasich overreached, and it may very well leave a lasting injury to him as Governor. The way Obamacare was pushed through was similar to SB5. While I still see aspects of SB5 as positive (merit over seniority) for the state, the issues should have been taken peiece by piece. If they had a positive result, you can continue reform.

Most unions prefer layoffs to pay cuts. So all those ads about SB5 causing cuts, when it was an attempt to lower cost per employee, had me a bit baffled. Sloth is the correct assesment of Kasich's and the Republicans handling of this...


And in all honestly the result could be more devastating than they (the Republican candidates in Ohio) think.

One of the beefs about the unions has been the dumping of tax payer money into the campaigns of the democrats....and it is certainly true that 99.9% of the time the unions endorse Dems...here's the rub though, that doesn't mean their members listen. The OEA put out some sort of a report way back that an astonishing number of their peeps actually voted FOR Kasich and others of his union lynch mob. (Don't know how reliable that it is, but.....) I know for a fact that SEVERAL of the teachers in my building DID and have ALWAYS voted republican before the SB5 storm struck...the point

NOT ANYMORE

NOW the Repubs in Ohio will have to deal with a very united front against them. There is no way for the forseeable future that a union member will vote R again....I'm betting the losses don't stop with the drubbing of Issue 2.
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Re: Issue 2 shot down, Issue 3 passes

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:07 pm

comish wrote:If you approve of this for teachers you got your wish because King John snuck it through with the budget bill (HB 153).....chaos soon to ensue


Seems in line with how politics operates. The "other side" doesn't just give up, and if they persist in areas where public support is firmly against they will go down in flames.
Last edited by Orenthal on Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Issue 2 shot down, Issue 3 passes

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:09 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:So much for the "silent majority"..... I heard so much about 'em, how they would all show up and back Kasich's water head plan. Whaaaa happen?


The guy saying that was so obviously wrong. He didn't realize the overreach, the amount of support, and was misguided by the closeness of the not good enough Wisconsin comparison.

I don't know anyone that voted for Nixon...
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Re: Issue 2 shot down, Issue 3 passes

Unread postby mistero » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:29 pm

The Unions poured millions of dollars into this campaign, 7 times more than the pro issue two forces. That and they had endless supply of workers with out anything to do. Need a fire fighter to stand at the Walmart entrance, we've got 3. Need a cop to stand in front of CBS, we've got seven. Unlimited money. Unlimited troops on the ground. The machine rolls on.

Now let's see what happens when the last drop comes out of the public revenue stream.
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