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Trade Hillis

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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:53 pm

municipalmutt wrote:If he truly is part, then pay him and move on.


Hillis's own perceived value >>>>>>>>> Heckgrin's value of Hillis. And its starting to look like Heckgrin may have been on the money there.
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Sun Nov 06, 2011 2:08 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
municipalmutt wrote:If he truly is part, then pay him and move on.


Hillis's own perceived value >>>>>>>>> Heckgrin's value of Hillis. And its starting to look like Heckgrin may have been on the money there.



I was going to come back and reply to the above. Yes Hillis had a good season, but he and his agent are indeed valuing Hillis too high. Imagine what an agent would have commanded after Joe Charbeneau's rookie campaign.
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby hiko » Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:10 pm

Idiocy is assuming we know how the negotiations went.
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby JCoz » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:20 am

Regardless of how negoitations went, RB's just dont hold a high value anymore, and seeing where the org is currrently, thinking that Hillis would be worth anything by the time the Browns were ready to compete is a stretch I think.

Unfortunately even coming off last season he wasn't likely garnering a 2nd, and this season his value has tanked. Sickening but the Browns may be in a situation where they cannot sign him and cannot trade him.

Is he unrestricted after the season? If so, I'm prepared to see him walk for nothing.
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby hiko » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:48 am

JCoz wrote:Regardless of how negoitations went, RB's just dont hold a high value anymore, and seeing where the org is currrently, thinking that Hillis would be worth anything by the time the Browns were ready to compete is a stretch I think.

Unfortunately even coming off last season he wasn't likely garnering a 2nd, and this season his value has tanked. Sickening but the Browns may be in a situation where they cannot sign him and cannot trade him.

Is he unrestricted after the season? If so, I'm prepared to see him walk for nothing.


This is his 4th year, so he should be Unrestricted.

And you're right - they can't trade or sign him. He's gone. Which is fine on one hand since he's nothing special, but he's also the best we got and creates another hole.

Not that I advocate breaking the bank to keep him - I don't. Especially not with the way he surgically had his man-parts replaced by a vagina in the offseason. Just another setback in a line of setbacks longer than the Lake Erie shoreline.
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby JCoz » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:56 am

I sadly agree. Just another hole in the lineup.
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby pod2dawg » Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:45 am

That makes 16 and counting.
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:53 pm

Per Schefter's Twitter

Browns head coach Pat Shurmur already has ruled out running back Peyton Hillis for Sunday's game.
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:04 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:Per Schefter's Twitter

Browns head coach Pat Shurmur already has ruled out running back Peyton Hillis for Sunday's game.


Any word whether he's ruled out Dawson running out of the wildcat or maybe giving John Greco a couple throws out of the backfield?

After he shocked the Rams by giving Alex Smith his first ever handoff the Jags will be ready for the mundane.
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:09 pm

Per me

Shurmur has also ruled out the extended forward pass, winning and general palatability. Has not ruled out a drop kick, for old times sake.
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby pod2dawg » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:04 am

Is there any chance of running a right guard snap deflection this week instead of the same old routine left guard thing?
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby trsteve1 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:34 am

This is sad.. really wanted Hillis to not be an ego driven psuedo celebraty diva money grubbing football player.. and yet, reality is.. that is exactly what he is. Also, apparently he can't stay healthy or something. Does he somehow think that not playing increases his value? Obviously as it has been stated, we CAN'T trade him, because the deadline is passed, and without a contract extension, we can't legally trade him.. but even if we could, who would give up a 2 for a one-year-wonderback?
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby motherscratcher » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:45 am

trsteve1 wrote:This is sad.. really wanted Hillis to not be an ego driven psuedo celebraty diva money grubbing football player.. and yet, reality is.. that is exactly what he is. Also, apparently he can't stay healthy or something. Does he somehow think that not playing increases his value? Obviously as it has been stated, we CAN'T trade him, because the deadline is passed, and without a contract extension, we can't legally trade him.. but even if we could, who would give up a 2 for a one-year-wonderback?


Are you saying that Hillis is healthy enough to play and is choosing not to because of the contract thing?
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby JCoz » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:42 am

trsteve1 wrote:This is sad.. really wanted Hillis to not be an ego driven psuedo celebraty diva money grubbing football player.. and yet, reality is.. that is exactly what he is. Also, apparently he can't stay healthy or something. Does he somehow think that not playing increases his value? Obviously as it has been stated, we CAN'T trade him, because the deadline is passed, and without a contract extension, we can't legally trade him.. but even if we could, who would give up a 2 for a one-year-wonderback?


Someone might have before the season, But even if we COULD legally trade him today or even in the off season, he wouldn't bring more than a high 4th rounder.

Barring a Raider or Snyder lapse of logic and reason.
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:50 pm

Trading in the NFL is going to go back to what it was about 5 years back - which is non-existent.

One of the main impetus' (or is it impenti?) of dealing picks was financial. Now, your first and second rounders are bargains, cause you don't have to back up the Brinks. You got em' for four years at a good price.

Which, of course, makes what the Raiders did even more idiotic, but recognize the rule rather than the exception.

Hillis is worth nothing in a trade, slightly....slightly lower than 6 weeks ago.
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby JCoz » Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:02 am

leadpipe wrote:Trading in the NFL is going to go back to what it was about 5 years back - which is non-existent.

One of the main impetus' (or is it impenti?) of dealing picks was financial. Now, your first and second rounders are bargains, cause you don't have to back up the Brinks. You got em' for four years at a good price.

Which, of course, makes what the Raiders did even more idiotic, but recognize the rule rather than the exception.

Hillis is worth nothing in a trade, slightly....slightly lower than 6 weeks ago.


What is the % difference in the contract size for a 2nd rounder now?

I dont know lead, obviously you've got a good record for ending up on the right side of these types of things here but I think you might be overplaying this hand.

The highest impact is by far the first rounders. These see a significant reduction in contract size, but then, how often was anyone dishing out a 1st for a Vet anyways? Besides the Raiders that is.....it just wasn't happening.

The worth of 2nd rounders and below are affected much less and so thier value is relatively similair to what it was before the cap. Which to most teams was still alot.

All I'm saying here is that I disagree that this shift in trade mentality stretches beyond the first maybe 40 picks in the draft. And I am interested to see the outcome over time, but I think the numbers from 2010 to 2011 show that 2nd round and below contracts are not significatly changed.
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Nov 18, 2011 11:15 am

LP - I think there will still be trades. Maybe more. But they will be evaluated more on talent than on cost.

If the rookie scale was in place last year, do you still think that the Browns/Falcons trade happens? I do. I see no reason for it not to. The Falcons wanted Jones. Thought he might put them over the top. The Browns wanted more talent. I don't think the cost of the draft positions figured that much into it.

I supposenthat it's possible that the Browns don't trade out of that pick if it is cheaper, but I have to think that they valued the extra picks they were getting more than they valued Jones (or whoever else they might have had their eye on) at this stage of the rebuild.
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby JCoz » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:14 pm

motherscratcher wrote:LP - I think there will still be trades. Maybe more. But they will be evaluated more on talent than on cost.

If the rookie scale was in place last year, do you still think that the Browns/Falcons trade happens? I do. I see no reason for it not to. The Falcons wanted Jones. Thought he might put them over the top. The Browns wanted more talent. I don't think the cost of the draft positions figured that much into it.

I supposenthat it's possible that the Browns don't trade out of that pick if it is cheaper, but I have to think that they valued the extra picks they were getting more than they valued Jones (or whoever else they might have had their eye on) at this stage of the rebuild.


It was in place last year.

http://www.mockingthedraft.com/2011/7/30/2305689/rookie-wage-scale-hits-2011-draftees-hard
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:10 pm

JCoz wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:LP - I think there will still be trades. Maybe more. But they will be evaluated more on talent than on cost.

If the rookie scale was in place last year, do you still think that the Browns/Falcons trade happens? I do. I see no reason for it not to. The Falcons wanted Jones. Thought he might put them over the top. The Browns wanted more talent. I don't think the cost of the draft positions figured that much into it.

I supposenthat it's possible that the Browns don't trade out of that pick if it is cheaper, but I have to think that they valued the extra picks they were getting more than they valued Jones (or whoever else they might have had their eye on) at this stage of the rebuild.


It was in place last year.

http://www.mockingthedraft.com/2011/7/30/2305689/rookie-wage-scale-hits-2011-draftees-hard


Oh yeah... ::doh::

Still, I think my overall point makes some sense, even if I used a completely stupid example.

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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby pup » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:11 pm

JCoz wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:LP - I think there will still be trades. Maybe more. But they will be evaluated more on talent than on cost.

If the rookie scale was in place last year, do you still think that the Browns/Falcons trade happens? I do. I see no reason for it not to. The Falcons wanted Jones. Thought he might put them over the top. The Browns wanted more talent. I don't think the cost of the draft positions figured that much into it.

I supposenthat it's possible that the Browns don't trade out of that pick if it is cheaper, but I have to think that they valued the extra picks they were getting more than they valued Jones (or whoever else they might have had their eye on) at this stage of the rebuild.


It was in place last year.

http://www.mockingthedraft.com/2011/7/30/2305689/rookie-wage-scale-hits-2011-draftees-hard


But it was not at the time of the draft, correct?
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:17 pm

pup wrote:
JCoz wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:LP - I think there will still be trades. Maybe more. But they will be evaluated more on talent than on cost.

If the rookie scale was in place last year, do you still think that the Browns/Falcons trade happens? I do. I see no reason for it not to. The Falcons wanted Jones. Thought he might put them over the top. The Browns wanted more talent. I don't think the cost of the draft positions figured that much into it.

I supposenthat it's possible that the Browns don't trade out of that pick if it is cheaper, but I have to think that they valued the extra picks they were getting more than they valued Jones (or whoever else they might have had their eye on) at this stage of the rebuild.


It was in place last year.

http://www.mockingthedraft.com/2011/7/30/2305689/rookie-wage-scale-hits-2011-draftees-hard



But it was not at the time of the draft, correct?


Not technically. But IIRC pretty much everyone knew it would be there in some form once the CBA was ironed out.
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby hiko » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:24 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
pup wrote:



But it was not at the time of the draft, correct?


Not technically. But IIRC pretty much everyone knew it would be there in some form once the CBA was ironed out.


Agreed. There was no way the new CBA wasn't going to have it b/c both sides wanted it.

I still think that trade gets done either way. Atlanta was on the SB-or-Bust train (looks like Bust right now). The Browns don't trade if Von Miller, Marcell Dareus, AJ Green, or maybe even Pat Peterson dropped, but likely felt there was enough dropoff from those guys to Julio that the trade was worth it.

I think Heckert wasn't worried about what Julio would cost contract-wise, just that what they could get back was > than JJ (hard to argue with that, imho).
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby JCoz » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:33 pm

^^^^ Agree
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:20 pm

There was already agreement between players/owners on the rookie wage scale when the draft was held. It wasn't formal, but it was commonly known as common ground as the vets were always in favor of it anyway.

Just sayin'...at the time of the past draft the cost of picks was already known to be greatly reduced from what it had been, because the players wanted more for the vets and the owners wanted relief from themselves..
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby hiko » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:24 pm

peeker643 wrote:There was already agreement between players/owners on the rookie wage scale when the draft was held. It wasn't formal, but it was commonly known as common ground as the vets were always in favor of it anyway.

Just sayin'...at the time of the past draft the cost of picks was already known to be greatly reduced from what it had been, because the players wanted more for the vets and the owners wanted relief from themselves..


Probably why Heckert was able to get such a motherload compared to what Kokinis/Mangini got.
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby municipalmutt » Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:42 pm

Larvell Blanks wrote:
Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
municipalmutt wrote:If he truly is part, then pay him and move on.


Hillis's own perceived value >>>>>>>>> Heckgrin's value of Hillis. And its starting to look like Heckgrin may have been on the money there.



I was going to come back and reply to the above. Yes Hillis had a good season, but he and his agent are indeed valuing Hillis too high. Imagine what an agent would have commanded after Joe Charbeneau's rookie campaign.


I apologize for not seeing these replies earlier. I was suggesting that maybe Gocong's deal might have played a factor in souring Hillis. I probably did a bad job of articulating it but sometimes when you lock up a scrub and don't take care of your better performers, it can lead to a hostile workplace, no matter what the profession.

If Hillis IS a high maintenance type guy, than it might be better to move on without him.
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby hiko » Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:23 pm

municipalmutt wrote:I apologize for not seeing these replies earlier. I was suggesting that maybe Gocong's deal might have played a factor in souring Hillis. I probably did a bad job of articulating it but sometimes when you lock up a scrub and don't take care of your better performers, it can lead to a hostile workplace, no matter what the profession.

If Hillis IS a high maintenance type guy, than it might be better to move on without him.


Again, we don't know when the Browns started negotiations with Hillis, what they offered, what he wants, etc. There is no doubt that they were trying to get a contract done. Just because Gocong accepted an offer they made doesn't mean they were "taking care" of him and ignoring Hillis. For all we know, they made generous offers that were turned down, and they offered Gocong his contract on one of their "off" weeks from trying to convince Hillis that he isn't worth $10 mil a year.

Hillis' contract negotiations are a separate entity to anyone else's contract negotiations.

And there is no doubt that Hillis has become high maintenance. Fame just fucks some people up.
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Re: Trade Hillis

Unread postby municipalmutt » Sun Nov 20, 2011 9:44 pm

Just because Gocong accepted an offer they made doesn't mean they were "taking care" of him


Sorry but extending a guy who after a season plus, has had so few impact plays you can count them on one hand, is slower than any DE on the team, and wouldn't sniff a starting spot anywhere else IS being "taken care of" by my definition.

I agree that we don't know what Hillis was offered. Good point there.
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