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2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby Orenthal » Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:35 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Another thing to think about roster building wise right now is that only one team ib the playoffs is trying to build around both a defensive center and a defensive four. That team is okc and it is a huge gamble. TT does not have sergeant upside on top of that. Then you have to figure in the roughly two centers exist the can score from both mid and post range exist and that serge has a jumper at least you really have to wonder about how this team is ever going to build a playoff front court featuring him. I don't know if a center exists that compliments TT without a midrange game


I know of a guy who might compliment TT, is available, would create plenty of awareness for the team, and may be a bit cheaper then usual. It's just that he might not work $$$ wise at this point in a rebuild/CBA, his age is advanced for a rebuild, he probably wants nothing to do with this team, is coming off some injury plagued seasons, and is a pretty stupid idea so I'll just allude to him and not name names...

I know we aren't, or are we /evilGilbertemoticon, building through FA, but damn if looking at that list isn't depressing anyway. Anyone even of interest as a reclamation/under the radar guy??? Thinking Lowry last year???

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/stor ... ents-11-12
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby StewieG » Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:45 pm

I'm guessing you're thinking of Yao?
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby daddywags » Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:46 pm

We aren't going to get any big time free agent this year, we can't afford it under any cap that comes out of the new CBA. I think Chris Grant really stepped in it in his post-draft comments; it is his first go-around at that as a GM after all. His comment that we had TT rated "way higher" than 4 is just nonsense because there aren't enough numbers between 1 and 4 to him "way higher," knowing he wasn't 1. His comment about free agents, I took loosely, as well. He either means a fringe FA (who still will likely be better right now than anyone available at 32) or some sort of trade where we get a player for nothing (TPE) or two players for one. In my view, he's just not very good at the public speaking part of his job yet. Mark Shapiro was great at that, he always made me feel good about the team whenever I heard him talk - for the first five years I heard it. But he sucked as a GM. This guy can come out and speak Chinese for all I care if he gets the job done, which remains to be seen.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby daddywags » Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:49 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Another thing to think about roster building wise right now is that only one team ib the playoffs is trying to build around both a defensive center and a defensive four. That team is okc and it is a huge gamble. TT does not have sergeant upside on top of that. Then you have to figure in the roughly two centers exist the can score from both mid and post range exist and that serge has a jumper at least you really have to wonder about how this team is ever going to build a playoff front court featuring him. I don't know if a center exists that compliments TT without a midrange game


I think that's a good point and, for now, I think that's exactly what they are trying to do. I'd add Chicago as a possible second team since I think they're a better playoff team with Gibson at PF than Boozer. They might not be ready to realize that yet, though.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby Orenthal » Sat Jun 25, 2011 7:52 pm

StewieG wrote:I'm guessing you're thinking of Yao?


Since I'll be harangued by e0 anyway, can I add the qualifier that I just glanced briefly at the FA list, and in now way am advocating we sign Yao.

'wags I only mention the FA list because of the interview Grant did with Roda. In that interview he mentioned the holes in our roster, and oddly, or predictably if you're a TMLP guy, spoke of FA somewhat more emphatically then the trade route. (ETA: I really should have read your whole post as you state all this.)

They are good humans though. Good character guys who also happen to be good basketball players. ::doh::

Shouldn't you want guys that are great basketball players who also happen to be good guys/humans?
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby daddywags » Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:04 pm

Orenthal wrote:
StewieG wrote:I'm guessing you're thinking of Yao?


Since I'll be harangued by e0 anyway, can I add the qualifier that I just glanced briefly at the FA list, and in now way am advocating we sign Yao.

'wags I only mention the FA list because of the interview Grant did with Roda. In that interview he mentioned the holes in our roster, and oddly, or predictably if you're a TMLP guy, spoke of FA somewhat more emphatically then the trade route. (ETA: I really should have read your whole post as you state all this.)

They are good humans though. Good character guys who also happen to be good basketball players. ::doh::

Shouldn't you want guys that are great basketball players who also happen to be good guys/humans?


Well, human is important. The rest of that I'm not so sure.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby JJN » Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:08 pm

RE: Thunder - Yes they have two defensive big men, but with Harden in the lineup, they
are so offensively talented that they might be able to make it work.

OJ - Just say no to Yao.

Better FA list, by position:
http://www.hoopsworld.com/story.asp?story_id=18192

The only FA that really intrigues me is Reggie Williams, restricted-FA G/F on the Dubs. Good 3 point shooter/scorer.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:04 pm

That was the single most unreadable phone post I have ever made.

Shit read like an OJ post.

I apologize.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby Orenthal » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:08 pm

I wasn't enthused by anything on the list restricted or otherwise. Plus not knowing CBA details, value of ending deals, the TPE extension/no extension blah blah. Trade trade trade.

Thought of Redd as a reclamation project that could be swung to a contender then forgot this isn't Indians baseball.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby Orenthal » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:08 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:That was the single most unreadable phone post I have ever made.

Shit read like an OJ post.

I apologize.


I could start posting like Pros again?
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:28 am

Orenthal wrote:I could start posting like Pros again?


You could try, but you'd have to step up your game. ;-) ;) :wink:

I wouldn't count on the Cavs to suck so bad next year that they'll be able to grab a player to "build around" in the lottery. If I count this right, the Cavs were 4-38 in the 42 games before trading for Baron Davis. After getting Davis (and losing Mo Williams and Moon in the trade and Jamo to injury) they finished 8-14. Like Peeker said, it shows how much difference a competent point guard can make.

So take that 8-14 team and add Varajao, Jamison, Irving, and Thompson. Maybe Eyenga is a little better with an NBA season under his belt. How bad do you expect that team to suck? Are we looking at top five pick? Or are we looking at a .500 team?

FWIW, Pluto is buying into the Cavs' story that TT was their 3rd ranked player. They say he runs the floor better than any big man in the draft and they like his shot blocking and P and R defense. Well, that's great but has there ever been a #4 overall pick in NBA history who can't score? But like Grant said, they're looking at Kyrie and TT as a "unique combination", with KI setting TT up for dunks.

If I were Grant, I'd say something like this - "We had Jonas and TT rated pretty evenly. Going in we would have been thrilled to get either of them at #4. Up until the final hours we were exploring all our options. In the end we just didn't want to take the risk of not having Jonas for two years. Maybe a buyout had been arranged, but if we learned one thing from the Carlos Boozer fiasco it was that unless there's a signature on a piece of paper you've got nothing. We weren't comfortable with a verbal agreement. So in the end we went with TT."

That actually might kind of be what happened.

With three bigs who can get up and down the floor (JJ, AV, and TT), a couple of athletic wings (Eyenga and Gee), and point guards who can push the ball and dish, I'm looking forward to seeing a running team this year. No more standing around while LeBron dribbles down the clock. No more pounding it in to Z or Shaq on the block for a bump and grind. This team will try to beat the other teams' bigs down the floor and stay out of a set offense whenever possible. Should be entertaining if nothing else.

Hope the above was at least semi-readable. If not, I apologize.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby daddywags » Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:52 am

Maybe a buyout had been arranged, but if we learned one thing from the Carlos Boozer fiasco it was that unless there's a signature on a piece of paper you've got nothing. We weren't comfortable with a verbal agreement. So in the end we went with TT."


Pros, I was thinking something similar this morning as I continue to chew on this fourth pick. We know Gilbert is okay with at least Rich Paul of LRMR, but we don't know his relationship with Leon Rose. It's entirely possible, given what happened last summer (and what preceeded that in the prior several years when that group got pretty much everything they asked for from Gilbert), that Gilbert just doesn't trust Rose's word. He'll sign his clients and work with him when necessary, but he may not trust him unless he gets it in writing. Who knows what Rose may have told Gilbert last summer or what promises he made before then that weren't kept. (Aside, Lloyd reports in the ABJ this morning that the Cavs were in contact with Gloria "throughout the free agency process" and "Even on the morning of 'the Decision' the Cavs had still been chatting with Gloria." She stopped taking their calls that afternoon.) I guess that's a long-winded way of saying I can envision circumstances under which Grant might come to Gilbert and say "Rose says he has an agreement and Jonas will be able to come here next season" and Gilbert might reply "Get it in writing or don't believe it." Frankly, that was my approach on 90% of the stuff I did when I was in the business world and 100% of the time when I'd been burned once before by a guy.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:05 pm

Prosecutor wrote:
Orenthal wrote:I could start posting like Pros again?


You could try, but you'd have to step up your game. ;-) ;) :wink:

I wouldn't count on the Cavs to suck so bad next year that they'll be able to grab a player to "build around" in the lottery. If I count this right, the Cavs were 4-38 in the 42 games before trading for Baron Davis. After getting Davis (and losing Mo Williams and Moon in the trade and Jamo to injury) they finished 8-14. Like Peeker said, it shows how much difference a competent point guard can make.

So take that 8-14 team and add Varajao, Jamison, Irving, and Thompson. Maybe Eyenga is a little better with an NBA season under his belt. How bad do you expect that team to suck? Are we looking at top five pick? Or are we looking at a .500 team?

FWIW, Pluto is buying into the Cavs' story that TT was their 3rd ranked player. They say he runs the floor better than any big man in the draft and they like his shot blocking and P and R defense. Well, that's great but has there ever been a #4 overall pick in NBA history who can't score? But like Grant said, they're looking at Kyrie and TT as a "unique combination", with KI setting TT up for dunks.

If I were Grant, I'd say something like this - "We had Jonas and TT rated pretty evenly. Going in we would have been thrilled to get either of them at #4. Up until the final hours we were exploring all our options. In the end we just didn't want to take the risk of not having Jonas for two years. Maybe a buyout had been arranged, but if we learned one thing from the Carlos Boozer fiasco it was that unless there's a signature on a piece of paper you've got nothing. We weren't comfortable with a verbal agreement. So in the end we went with TT."

That actually might kind of be what happened.

With three bigs who can get up and down the floor (JJ, AV, and TT), a couple of athletic wings (Eyenga and Gee), and point guards who can push the ball and dish, I'm looking forward to seeing a running team this year. No more standing around while LeBron dribbles down the clock. No more pounding it in to Z or Shaq on the block for a bump and grind. This team will try to beat the other teams' bigs down the floor and stay out of a set offense whenever possible. Should be entertaining if nothing else.

Hope the above was at least semi-readable. If not, I apologize.


Yeah, no more watching Lebron dribble down the clock. Much rather watch Alonzo Gee and Christian Eyenga run the floor.

And I can't tell you how was sick of them pounding the ball down to Z on the block, I was begging for him to take a 20 footer off the pick and pop.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby papacass » Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:23 pm

JJN wrote:Vala has might go be able to start on a championship team some day. TT? No fucking chance unless he grows two more inches. And even then, probably not.


How can you possibly know that? Two kids that aren't even done growing out all their peach fuzz yet? How can you possibly know what they're going to become?

If I was told I was going to suck ass in my chosen line of work at age 20, how great of a disservice would that person have done to me? Same goes if someone had told me I was destined for greatness? In either instance, my will to improve myself would have been damaged. In any profession, you teach a young kid. You coach them, you discipline them and encourage them when appropriate, you let them mature (or not mature). But you can't possibly know what you have before you've done those things.

Good thing is, the Cavs' success is now being measured on a geologic level, so they're not in a hurry for anything. If it takes TT five years to become a productive veteran, the Cavs can wait. They (and we) have nothing but time on our hands. You can make war with that fact or make peace with it. But the fact isn't going anywhere.

Just when you think you've waited 47 years and you have no patience left, fate intervenes and you need more patience. That, or find another hobby.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:27 pm

Cass, can you name me the teams in the last 20 years that had a 6'8" PF start in the playoffs?

Can you also name me the number of playoffs teams that had a PF and C that couldn't shoot?
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby papacass » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:14 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Cass, can you name me the teams in the last 20 years that had a 6'8" PF start in the playoffs?

Can you also name me the number of playoffs teams that had a PF and C that couldn't shoot?


I can't and I won't, because the next time this team makes the playoffs, Andy and J.J. won't be here and this roster will look a heluva lot different. No telling where TT will fit in, or if he will. The next time this team makes the playoffs, they'll have several more drafts and at least a couple more major trades behind them.

FTR, I think TT will develop into a serviceable bench piece, and maybe a starter if they draft enough scoring at other positions. He is a superior athlete, and I quite frankly don't know where the rap came on him that he's an avergage-at-best athlete for his size/position. Maybe it's because he's had some issues getting rid of excess baby fat in high school. But he has a 7'-2" wingspan and his hand can scrape 12 feet on a vertical. So he'll play taller than his height. Also, maybe he still grows another fraction of an inch and tops out at 6'-9" 1/4 or somewhere around there.

IOW, yeah, he could be a short center in some lineups. If he can defend on the floor, you can swing him out to PF. Before he develops a shot, really I want to know how far along he is as an on-the-floor defender. Initally, it's true he's probably never going to have more than just enough offense to get by, so his defense will determine whether he stays on the floor. His ability to fight over screens, stay in position, cut off driving lanes and challenge shots will be more important than his scoring.

If TT has played his way into the Cavs' long-term plans in a few years, I'll give you that he won't be a frontline scorer. The scoring is going to have to come from subsequent drafts and trades. Next year's draft is where I want to see them add the scoring, when the pool of prospects will be deeper and better.

If anyone needs their collective "we got screwed" fix, bellyache over giving away Justin Harper for two second-rounders. Harper is probably going to develop into a 15-17 PPG scorer because of his outside shooting. He's probably going to be a 40 percent 3PT shooter in the NBA.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:19 pm

So, you think this thread jumped the shark and you can't find a similar player in the NBA that isn't a less athletic Ty (TT is athletic, Ty is a freak).

IOW: the board didn't melt down and they just freaked about taking a probable rotation at best player.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby papacass » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:31 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:So, you think this thread jumped the shark and you can't find a similar player in the NBA that isn't a less athletic Ty (TT is athletic, Ty is a freak).

IOW: the board didn't melt down and they just freaked about taking a probable rotation at best player.


Yeah. I do. TT isn't Ty or anyone else. We always look for historical precedent. TT is going to be his own player, whatever that ends up being. Good, bad or otherwise.

And since the overall tone of this thread is "I'm calling it right now," I'm going to do a bit of that:

Here is what's going to happen: In a few years, when TT and Vala are both averaging five points per game and racking up the DNP-CD's, the focus will shift onto Jan Vesely, or Klay Thompson, or whoever else is performing at a high level. That will be the guy Chris Grant didn't see due to his epic shitheadedness. Not singling anyone out, but in general, the MMQB's will always be there with their 20/20 hindsight arguments. Doesn't matter the sport, the board, the circumstances. It's as omnipresent as the air we breathe.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:43 pm

^ I agree w/ that and you nailed it, my point remains that I am going to read and watch this FO and their "PLAN"
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:48 pm

I guess that's a long-winded way of saying I can envision circumstances under which Grant might come to Gilbert and say "Rose says he has an agreement and Jonas will be able to come here next season" and Gilbert might reply "Get it in writing or don't believe it." Frankly, that was my approach on 90% of the stuff I did when I was in the business world and 100% of the time when I'd been burned once before by a guy.


I suspect that was it. The former Cavs management was made to look like fools by Boozer because they trusted a verbal agreement. They were heaped with criticism for that. I'll bet Gilbert said, "We're never going to put ourselves in a position where that could happen to us," and that was that. It was reported that the Cavs were not comfortable drafting Vala without knowing for sure when he would be available. It was a matter of risk management, and the Cavs are not as comfortable with taking risks as some of their fans are. Maybe that means they never win a Championship. We'll find out eventually.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby JJN » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:50 pm

papacass wrote:How can you possibly know that? Two kids that aren't even done growing out all their peach fuzz yet? How can you possibly know what they're going to become?

If I was told I was going to suck ass in my chosen line of work at age 20, how great of a disservice would that person have done to me? Same goes if someone had told me I was destined for greatness? In either instance, my will to improve myself would have been damaged. In any profession, you teach a young kid. You coach them, you discipline them and encourage them when appropriate, you let them mature (or not mature). But you can't possibly know what you have before you've done those things.

Good thing is, the Cavs' success is now being measured on a geologic level, so they're not in a hurry for anything. If it takes TT five years to become a productive veteran, the Cavs can wait. They (and we) have nothing but time on our hands. You can make war with that fact or make peace with it. But the fact isn't going anywhere.

Just when you think you've waited 47 years and you have no patience left, fate intervenes and you need more patience. That, or find another hobby.


Let's say that you want to be an astrophysicist, but you can't do math beyond Algebra 2 level. I can tell you that you will suck at your chosen profession. Givony broke this kid down:

-Thompson only scored 0.938 PPP overall (4th last in bigmen)
-TT scored 0.749 points per-possessions with his back to the basket, 2nd to last in this group
-TT scored a sample worst 0.654 PPP on a jump shots
-More than a quarter (26.3%) of his possessions resulted in a free throw
-49% free throw conversion rate
-average finisher (64%)

We got a PF who has two skills:
1. defense
2. getting to the line

1. It has yet to be seen that he can guard guys at the next level. For PFs drafted in the Top 30 (which we can assume most starters will be), he is half an inch shorter with slightly shorter arms. He is slightly more athletic, but only by an inch (no step vert) to an inch and a half (combine max vert). He is also lighter and not as strong.
2. Sure, he got to the line a ton. Doesn't mean anything if you can't convert your free throws. JJ took 367 FT and hit 247 (67%). At his current rate, TT would have knocked down 180. 67 points difference, just left at the line. There have been teams that couldn't put up that many points over four quarters this past year.

He might be a good offensive rebounder, but his defensive rebounding numbers blew. Its not that he isn't a good athlete, he is. But he isn't an elite, freak athlete, which is what you need when you are undersized. That or you have to have a post game. Kid has neither.

You are right, he might be a serviceable bench player. Is that really what you want out of the number 4 pick? Especially when there is a player who played against higher competition, rebounded way better on the defensive end, has legit size at his position, didn't turn the ball over, and shot 20%TS better.

We picked a guy who might be OK over a guy who could be great. That's the issue.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby jerryroche » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:47 pm

Great post, JJN!!!
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby Orenthal » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:56 pm

Getting to the line gets bigs in foul trouble, gets you in the bonus quicker, and forces the defense to play softer.

*Not advocating TT over Vala, just pointing out having a low FT% but getting to the line often, has benefits.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby daddywags » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:56 pm

It has yet to be seen that he can guard guys at the next level. For PFs drafted in the Top 30 (which we can assume most starters will be), he is half an inch shorter with slightly shorter arms. He is slightly more athletic, but only by an inch (no step vert) to an inch and a half (combine max vert). He is also lighter and not as strong.


I'm not sure this is all correct. He has a longer wing span than: Blake Griffin, Josh Smith, Tyler Hansbrough, Ed Davis, Markieff Morris, Marcus Morris, Kevin Love, Darrell Arthur, Al Horford and the same wing span as Joakim Noah. All of those guys are first round drafted (most top 15) in the last 4 drafts (except for Smith who was '04, but he's not a horrible comp for TT). He has a higher standing reach than: Blake Griffin, Josh Smith, Tyler Hansbrough, Jordan Hill, Ekpe Udoh, Ed Davis, Markieff and Marcus Morris, Kevin Love, Darrell Arthur, Al Horford and Joakim Noah and the same standing reach as Brandon Wright and Greg Monroe. Again, except for Smith, guys drafted in the first round of the last four drafts. I haven't bothered to check standing vert and max vert. If anyone's interested (this is probably beaten to death by now), I'll give a look.

FTR: I'm not trying to build the guy up as some sort of star player. I'm on record as saying I would have preferred that they take Valanciunas at 4, buyout or no buyout. But nothwithstanding that he's undersized for the Gasol's and Bosh's and Garnett's and Nowitzki's of the NBA world, he's a fairly average looking PF otherwise. PFs in the playoffs this year that are listed as 6'9" (which is what TT will be listed at): Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer (and Taj Gibson), Josh Smith, Tyler Hansbrough, Zach Randolph, Carl Landry, and Antonio McDyess. Brandon Bass is listed as 6'8". Some of them measured a little shorter than TT, some as much as 3/4" taller, but is that make or break for him, really?
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby Orenthal » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:59 pm

Turning the ball over was a knock on Vala.

Seeing a meager 1.3 possessions per-game in the post (3rd last), and zero in isolation situations, Valanciunas wasn't asked to score with his back to the basket last season, especially in EuroLeague play. Part of the reason for that was his propensity to turn the ball over after receiving an entry pass, which he did at a 29% rate (1st).


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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:22 pm

JJN wrote:We picked a guy who might be OK over a guy who could be great. That's the issue.


We're now at where Vala is considered potentially 'great'. Is there a Stockholm Syndrome for crappy drafts? We should get a sports psychologist on this.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby JJN » Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:41 pm

That was his post possessions only if I am reading that correctly. In terms of pace-adjusted turnovers per 40 minutes, Vala had 0.6 TO, TT had 1.6 TO.
Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
JJN wrote:We picked a guy who might be OK over a guy who could be great. That's the issue.


We're now at where Vala is considered potentially 'great'. Is there a Stockholm Syndrome for crappy drafts? We should get a sports psychologist on this.


Vala has been considered one of the highest ceiling guys in this draft all along, and Ford and DX both considered him to have the highest ceiling. Maybe you are thinking I meant superstar great, I didn't. But to completely clarify, in five years he could be a top 10 center in the league.

daddywags wrote:
It has yet to be seen that he can guard guys at the next level. For PFs drafted in the Top 30 (which we can assume most starters will be), he is half an inch shorter with slightly shorter arms. He is slightly more athletic, but only by an inch (no step vert) to an inch and a half (combine max vert). He is also lighter and not as strong.


I'm not sure this is all correct. ... If anyone's interested (this is probably beaten to death by now), I'll give a look.

FTR: I'm not trying to build the guy up as some sort of star player. I'm on record as saying I would have preferred that they take Valanciunas at 4, buyout or no buyout. But nothwithstanding that he's undersized for the Gasol's and Bosh's and Garnett's and Nowitzki's of the NBA world, he's a fairly average looking PF otherwise. PFs in the playoffs this year that are listed as 6'9" (which is what TT will be listed at): Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer (and Taj Gibson), Josh Smith, Tyler Hansbrough, Zach Randolph, Carl Landry, and Antonio McDyess. Brandon Bass is listed as 6'8". Some of them measured a little shorter than TT, some as much as 3/4" taller, but is that make or break for him, really?


DX
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-dra ... t=30&sort=

His reach is a little higher, his wingspan a little smaller than Top 30 drafted PFs. Verts are listed there too (at the combine TT was 30/35). Brand, Boozer and Gibson are 3/4"+ taller than TT in shoes, and have larger wingspans. And they can hit a shot.

Pretty sure all those guys outweigh him by quite a bit as well.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:46 pm

papacass wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:So, you think this thread jumped the shark and you can't find a similar player in the NBA that isn't a less athletic Ty (TT is athletic, Ty is a freak).

IOW: the board didn't melt down and they just freaked about taking a probable rotation at best player.


Yeah. I do. TT isn't Ty or anyone else. We always look for historical precedent. TT is going to be his own player, whatever that ends up being. Good, bad or otherwise.

And since the overall tone of this thread is "I'm calling it right now," I'm going to do a bit of that:

Here is what's going to happen: In a few years, when TT and Vala are both averaging five points per game and racking up the DNP-CD's, the focus will shift onto Jan Vesely, or Klay Thompson, or whoever else is performing at a high level. That will be the guy Chris Grant didn't see due to his epic shitheadedness. Not singling anyone out, but in general, the MMQB's will always be there with their 20/20 hindsight arguments. Doesn't matter the sport, the board, the circumstances. It's as omnipresent as the air we breathe.


No Cass, it's not just a "20/20 hindsight" thread. People have brought forth legitimate reasons for concern, not just subjective arguments on "this player being better than that player." And many of these same people haven't said Vala's going to be great, and TT's going to blow.

Are you painting it that way cause it's easy to ignore the other issues aside from who's going to be better, or did you skim the thread?

"Much higher than fourth." That's got a good chance to go down in Classic Cavs history - like a Stepien softball.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby daddywags » Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:53 pm

DX
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-dra ... t=30&sort=

His reach is a little higher, his wingspan a little smaller than Top 30 drafted PFs. Verts are listed there too (at the combine TT was 30/35). Brand, Boozer and Gibson are 3/4"+ taller than TT in shoes, and have larger wingspans. And they can hit a shot.

Pretty sure all those guys outweigh him by quite a bit as well.


I got ya. Seems pretty much average to me, except like most 20 year-old rookie bigs he needs to put on some weight. Not sure why people are trying to make him out to be some sort of shrimp.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby Orenthal » Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:03 pm

Vals's pace adjusted TO's were 3.6 versus 2.3 for TT.

LMAO
Pace adjusted 8.2 PF's for Vala.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby JJN » Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:52 pm

Orenthal wrote:Vals's pace adjusted TO's were 3.6 versus 2.3 for TT.

LMAO
Pace adjusted 8.2 PF's for Vala.


You are correct. I was taking that off this article:
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Jus ... Crop-3754/

He reposted the assist/40 numbers for that column. Vala was the most turnover prone, TT was among the least turnover prone.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby OldDawg » Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:43 pm

papacass wrote:the next time this team makes the playoffs, Andy and J.J. won't be here and this roster will look a heluva lot different.
I agree with that, but this pick at number 4 might be a reason why that is true. Andy, JJ, Vala could get us into the playoffs. NOW, we have to move one of those guys and we still dont have a C.

papacass wrote:If anyone needs their collective "we got screwed" fix, bellyache over giving away Justin Harper for two second-rounders. Harper is probably going to develop into a 15-17 PPG scorer because of his outside shooting. He's probably going to be a 40 percent 3PT shooter in the NBA.

That's the pisser. As I said before, I was hoping for a Daugherty, Harper, Price draft of 86.
Irving, Vala, Harper coulda been as close as we coulda got in this weak draft.

Irving #1 v Daugherty #1: Very safe #1 picks who weren't freak athletes but very good basketball players.

Ron Harper #6 v Vala #4: Two guys who had some question marks. Vala played overseas, Harper in the Mac. Not certain how their games would translate to NBA.

Mark Price #25 vs Justin Harper #32: Both early second round picks. Both considered to be strong offensive players, but weak on defense out of college. Supposedly they were too bad on D to play in the NBA. Cavs were so sure of Price they drafted another PG, KJ, in the 1st round of the 87 draft.

I know these comparisons are a stretch. But the production of the 86 draft was a stretch when it happened.

I mean the drafting of Harper is genious, if we had drafted Vala at 4. As it stands, drafting Harper was idiotic. And they admitted by trading him away for two future nobodies.

Instead, we have Irving and TT. Am I an idiot??

Dang this draft ticks me off.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby rk » Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:11 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Cass, can you name me the teams in the last 20 years that had a 6'8" PF start in the playoffs?


Last I checked Charles Barkley was 6'6". Although who knows if back in the day they measured with or without shoes... So Portland in '97 and '98 would fit the bill.

Of course he was an athletic freak who couldn't stay away from the buffet line so beyond height I see no useful comparison to Tristan.

What I don't understand is why you state unequivocally that Tristan is 6'8 and yet you seem to think that D-Will, who is the exact same height as Tristan, would be a more natural fit at the 4 than the 3.

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I get you don't like the pick and feel the Cavs got at best a role player in a position we actually have at least a modicum of talent at as opposed to a center where we have none. But I don't know why there's a need to make him out to be worse than he is.

And people saying he's not a freak athlete this is a guy who was ranked

2008: #1 Scout, #2 Rivals, #5 ESPN
2009: #1 Scout, #5 Rivals, #3 ESPN
2010: #6 Scout, #17 Rivals, #11 ESPN

You don't rate that high without some serious athleticism. Obviously by his senior year his rankings went down because his outside game hadn't developed. But people are acting like he's not a premier athlete. I really don't get that.

He's a guy who hasn't developed a shot and needs someone else to help him create. He is what he is. No need to undersell his athleticism or size when his lack of anything resembling a perimeter game speaks for itself.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:03 pm

No, Biyombo is a Freak athlete. Ty Thomas is a freak athlete. etc.

Tristan is a fine athelte, no doubt but there is nothing spectacular about his athleticism.

He is undersized and can't shoot.

He is what he is, your right, small, an okay athlete, and can't score.

Yeah, tons of role players start like that in the playoffs.... tons

And your one of like four people alive that is pretending that D-Will has the foot speed to defend threes (he doesn't). Only difference is that he can at least be an elite stretch four. We got an undersized defensive specialist. Awesome.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby rk » Mon Jun 27, 2011 5:39 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:And your one of like four people alive that is pretending that D-Will has the foot speed to defend threes (he doesn't). Only difference is that he can at least be an elite stretch four. We got an undersized defensive specialist. Awesome.


I haven't said anything of the sort. I said that if your only goal was to win this year you're better off drafting a guy who thinks he can be a 3 and getting a SG at the 4th pick.

For the record I think D-Will is a 4 but he's like Lebron mentally and just refuses to do the work necessary developing an inside game to excel at the 4. He wants to be a shooter first even if his build and matchup. Unlike Lebron he doesn't have the pull on a team to dictate to a coach that he won't be used underneath. And since there were times when he was shut down in College I have no idea how well he'll translate to the NBA.

But while I really can see some teams look at him and look at Tristan and see similar athletes, similar physical build, see one guy committed to playing the 4 and one guy who isn't, who can then rationalize on a draft board putting the committed 4 at the same level as the confused 3/4. I can't rationalize it because in the end one guy can shoot and one can't.

Just imagine for a second though that the Cavs had the 2nd pick and really did pick Tristan. Talk about how well that would have been received in Cavs Nation.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby JJN » Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:20 pm

Its not that one guy can shoot and the other can't. Its that when you are talking about elite skills, D-Will's is scoring (at 60% from everywhere on the floor), TT's is getting to the line. TT converts at 49%. TT has 49% of an elite skill.

Also, Williams has a way more NBA-ready body than TT does. Yes they are similar athletes, but Williams does it weighing 20lbs heavier.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon Jun 27, 2011 7:51 pm

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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:03 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:No, Biyombo is a Freak athlete. Ty Thomas is a freak athlete. etc.

Tristan is a fine athelte, no doubt but there is nothing spectacular about his athleticism.

He is undersized and can't shoot.

He is what he is, your right, small, an okay athlete, and can't score.

Yeah, tons of role players start like that in the playoffs.... tons

And your one of like four people alive that is pretending that D-Will has the foot speed to defend threes (he doesn't). Only difference is that he can at least be an elite stretch four. We got an undersized defensive specialist. Awesome.


And again, to the point, that would be fine at 24. Hell, in this draft it might be fine at 14.

But not at #4. No way. If the pool of players available there all have some weaknesses then you look for the highest ceiling and I just don't think that's Thompson when all is said and done.

People can argue all they like but I believe they overreached in a big way. That's all. Hope I end up wrong.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby Orenthal » Mon Jun 27, 2011 8:20 pm

Consensus for TT was 9. A reach no matter how you look at it...

http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/0 ... index.html
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby OldDawg » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:42 pm

Orenthal wrote:Consensus for TT was 9. A reach no matter how you look at it...

http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/0 ... index.html


Even more telling about this link is that only one mock had TT ranked higher than 7. And that was Amick from SI. And I still contend that he didn't believe TT should be ranked that high. I just think he had a source at the Cavs and he knew what the Cavs were thinking. if you would statistically look at the distribution of the draft positions for TT, you would almost look at Amick's positioning of TT as an outlier, since it is so far removed from the rest of the pack data-wise. And of course, Grant had him MUCH higher than 4. One of the mocks didn't even have TT in the top 15.

Here are how the 12 latest mock drafts located TT in the draft: Position (number of mocks)

4 (1)
7 (2)
8 (3)
9 (1)
11 (2)
13 (1)
Not in top 15 (1)
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby furls » Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:18 pm

The one mock that had him at 4 must have been Gilbert's.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby YahooFanChicago » Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:23 am

Does anyone know what happens with next year's draft order IF the 2011/2012 season is cancelled? Do they base the 2012 draft order on the 2010/2011 season? some average of the previous couple of seasons? The average cup size of each teams chearleaders? Has this even been decided yet?
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:51 am

No one knows. A lot of people believe they'll do the NHL thing and base it off of the average of the past three years record. Some believe it'll be a lottery where every team gets some kind of odds, etc.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby YahooFanChicago » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:40 am

Thanks for the information lee..much appreciated.

I think the NHL previous few years average is probably the most fair way to do it but this would obviously be bad for the Cavs since it averages in the good Lebron years.

For the Cav's sake I think we need to hope that the NBA plays at least part of this year so that we have our crappy won-loss record to support a top 5 draft position. You would think Gilbert is pretty conflicted on this one since he definitely wants to shift power to the owners which won't be easy or come quickly but he also needs the league to play if they want a top pick.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby Triple-S » Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:55 pm

http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/2011/ ... ba-i-quit/

I don't feel like starting a new thread for this, just feel like leaving this here to be ripped to shreds.

pretty piss-poor written.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:37 am

WFNY shouldn't be allowed to write about the NBA. Whiny bunch of fucks.

I've told them as much, they get killed on Twitter daily, they suck.
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:46 pm

motherscratcher is a dirty whore
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Re: 2011 NBA Draft Official Thread

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:22 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:BTW: the day that OSU hires a under the radar meh guy I'll be glued to this forum. Between the homers (led by CDT) screaming to have faith and those w/ high expectations wanting to burn the school down it will be the most awesome day ever on the internet.


Wrong thread dipshit
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