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al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

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al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby danwismar » Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:53 pm

OK...new topic.

Obama has authorized the drone strike that offed al-Awlaki...terrorist...inspiration for the Ft. Hood shooter among other terrorist acts here and abroad.

I think we can all agree that the world is a better place without this scumbag in it, and I for one am very glad he's dead, and salute the president for doing it.

Still...it's troubling, no?

The fact remains that the guy was a U.S. citizen, and he was just intentionally murdered by the US government without due process, to say the least.

Should the president be allowed to decide, by himself....or should anyone...Congress...the Pentagon...the Supreme Court...be allowed to decide that a US citizen deserves to die for whatever crimes he may have committed...including treason...without due process?...and then go ahead and do the deed?

Would it have mattered if he had been on US soil? Why would that make it different?

Discuss.
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby Orenthal » Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:24 pm

I'll first crack and say on this issue I'm a centrist. al-Awlaki is, was, an U.S. Citizen, but had become a leader of a group we are at war with on foriegn soil. Were we to grab him and try him in court for sedition?

Much of this has to do with never making a clear Declaration of War (in Congress) against Al-Qaeda. David Addington and John Yoo specifically created process, carried forward by Obama, that promote this type of killing. From rendition, to now CIA hit lists against American citizens. IMO, the onus is on Congress to hold the executive branch's feet to the fire.

On the second question yes it did matter if it is on U.S. soil. On U.S. soil you don't have national sovereignty or logistical issues. The Times Square failed bomber was treated in this "different" manner.
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:31 pm

Haven't a lot of US citizens been killed on US soil without due process and at the hands or direction of the government?
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby Orenthal » Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:36 pm

I can think of a few I'd like killed.

Context Peeks, context of this discussion. Context of terror suspect. We're academics.
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:38 pm

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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:45 pm

The guy was in another country fermenting terror to use on his own people. He got what he deserved. We had no chance to grab him and try him...... Just like Judd said in Pet Sematary "Sometimes.... dead is bettah."
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Sep 30, 2011 5:57 pm

Orenthal wrote:I can think of a few I'd like killed.

Context Peeks, context of this discussion. Context of terror suspect. We're academics.


Not sure I understand (except for the first sentence- that I get). From John Wilkes Booth to David Koresh and 20+ kids, haven't US citizens died on US soil at the direction of the federal government without due process?

I'm not arguing about the validity of the threats (perceived or otherwise) but rather this just doesn't seem like a new issue to me personally.

I personally have no issue with al-Awlaki being dispatched, for whatever it's worth. But the danger of the government making these calls (or being responsible for the authority given to make the calls) has existed for as long as the nation has existed.

No?
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby Orenthal » Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:39 pm

^Of course, and it makes the "War on Terror" aspect an argument in semantic foolishness. I suppose it would have been easier for me to say, "Duh, peeks just nailed it," but I attempted to make us appear detached and cerebral.

Those above, and al-Awlaki, will fuel this discussion, but as you said its happened historically. And has it changed anything? I don't see any special legislation carved out from Koresh.

Tapper from ABC news quotes the White House as saying "State Secret" as the legal reasoning for the killing of an American citizen. Sounds just like Addington and Yoo...
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby HoodooMan » Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:15 pm

We already loosen restraints on the 4th amendment when applied abroad because of the practicality of doing otherwise. Combined with the hybrid status of terrorism between crime & war, the strike was on pretty solid footing, Amurrcan citizen or not.

In terms of slippery slopes, I'd put the threat of future abuse maybe a half-notch above the possibility of us legalizing marriages between goats and goat fuckers.
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:51 pm

Honestly, the only thing that gives me pause here is that even Timothy McVeigh was granted due process.

That said, not sure how you bring a guy like this home for a trial. So that nullifies that though.
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:24 pm

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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:55 am

Dan my question would be is there enough on these type guys to bring them to a military tribunal (sp)?

I'm a big believer in preserving 4th amendment rights but there is always a risk of bringing someone like this into the US for a normal civilian due process.
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Sat Oct 01, 2011 5:41 am

If you don't want to be killed by the government, don't do bad things.

Seems pretty black and white to me.
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Oct 01, 2011 3:22 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:If you don't want to be killed by the government, don't do bad things.

Seems pretty black and white to me.


Yeah, pretty basic. Pretty clear. And, it's just how I feel.

Unfortunately for me, it's 2011 - so apparently, I'm the asshole.
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sat Oct 01, 2011 3:38 pm

leadpipe wrote:
Erie Warrior wrote:If you don't want to be killed by the government, don't do bad things.

Seems pretty black and white to me.


Yeah, pretty basic. Pretty clear. And, it's just how I feel.

Unfortunately for me, it's 2011 - so apparently, I'm the asshole.


You say that like this is the only reason.
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby gotribe31 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:51 am

I would have wholeheartedly supported the killing under the previous administration, so can't really go about changing my mind just because I disagree with most of the stuff the current administration does. Is it a dangerous precedent to set? Maybe, but hopefully not. The issue is the fact that there really was no means of going in there and getting him, and he wasn't coming our way anytime soon. So the "what if this were on US soil?" question becomes more or less moot, because this wouldn't have happened on US soil and I don't think it ever will.

So if Adam Ghadan's location becomes known and we have a predator in the area, fire away. If we somehow get intel that Adam Ghadan is flying from Ibad-Dubai or somewhere that will arrest him for us, then we wait until we can get our hands on him and bring him back here by the scruff of his neck. I'll take 'em dead or alive, as long as they are brought to justice one way or another.

Had this have taken place 4 years ago though, I have a hard time not thinking that the NY Times, Harry Reid, Pelosi would have been screaming that it was an extrajudicial killing and Bush should be impeached.
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:03 am

This was a military operation conducted in the interest of defense of the USA

There is no grey area

...and yeah, I wonder if anyone who is outraged gave a rats as about the ATF shooting a woman in the head while holding her baby...in her own home

Are some people really not getting the fact that the military is now under more restrictions and being held more accountable for their actions than the fucking ATF?????
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby danwismar » Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:05 am

FYI...the administration did the legal analysis...issued a memorandum justifying the killing just days before it was done, and now will not release that memo to the public.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... ns/246004/

You'd think eventually they'll have to release it.

I think you're right,Al,about the double standard thing. The media would not consider this such a benign, non-threatening event if there were a Republican in the WH. In the same way that the self-described "anti-war" left is quiet as a mouse these days regarding drone strikes, Gitmo, rendition, military tribunals, etc.
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby Orenthal » Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:59 am

danwismar wrote:FYI...the administration did the legal analysis...issued a memorandum justifying the killing just days before it was done, and now will not release that memo to the public.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... ns/246004/

You'd think eventually they'll have to release it.

I think you're right,Al,about the double standard thing. The media would not consider this such a benign, non-threatening event if there were a Republican in the WH. In the same way that the self-described "anti-war" left is quiet as a mouse these days regarding drone strikes, Gitmo, rendition, military tribunals, etc.


Don't you think in a very subtle, nuanced, and passive way your committing the same double standard? Or, I'm I just reading tone into the text?
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:10 pm

I'm kinda with OJ here.

I think if you come out and are incensed about the double standard regarding how the media or the left (if there needs to be a designation between the two) has accepted this instance of federally sponsored killing then there is an argument to have.

I just kinda see this as 'issue' as not being an 'issue' as opposed to an example one could use to make the above argument.
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby gotribe31 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:17 pm

Here's another interesting double-standard; the Obama admin and legal team says it's legal to kill a USC without due process. Fine, I agree in this case. But how is it then NOT legal to waterboard a non-USC without due process? If a CIA/military officer were to waterboard a probable AQ terrorist who was capture on the battlefield in Afghanistan, and he thought that action was stopping a potential future attack (same logic used by the admin in the AAA strike), then he would likely be prosecuted by DOJ.

Again, I agree with the predator strike(s). But why is killing legal and waterboarding not? If they had captured AAA on the battlefield and he laughed and said something to the effect of "your too late, the next attackers are already in place," they wouldn't have been able to waterboard it out of him, right?
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby danwismar » Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:42 pm

Orenthal wrote:
danwismar wrote:FYI...the administration did the legal analysis...issued a memorandum justifying the killing just days before it was done, and now will not release that memo to the public.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... ns/246004/

You'd think eventually they'll have to release it.

I think you're right,Al,about the double standard thing. The media would not consider this such a benign, non-threatening event if there were a Republican in the WH. In the same way that the self-described "anti-war" left is quiet as a mouse these days regarding drone strikes, Gitmo, rendition, military tribunals, etc.


Don't you think in a very subtle, nuanced, and passive way your committing the same double standard? Or, I'm I just reading tone into the text?


Not sure what you mean...my comment was strictly about different media treatment of actions by the President...a difference so common and unsurprising and routine as to be almost unremarkable. That, and a noticeable difference in the way the hard-left treats necessary and reasonable war-making tactics based on who occupies the WH.

I think I'm being consistent. I supported Bush's WOT, and I support and applaud Obama's continuation of those policies as necessary and reasonable. I stated above my "salute" to Obama for this recent action.

The Atlantic article I posted is written by a confirmed lefty Friedersdorf, from a magazine/site that probably leans a bit left, but is fairly scrupulously non-partisan.

I remember JB's fevered anticipation of partisan criticism of Obama from the right when he killed OBL....criticism that never came. Most all the criticism of OBL's killing came from the left...unsurprisingly to most of us.

Edit: The issue here is more one of transparency....if the WH did their legal analysis and came to a decision based on that analysis, why the hesitance to let the people see it...just as we saw John Yoo's rationale for approving waterboarding.
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby Orenthal » Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:46 pm

gotribe31 wrote:Here's another interesting double-standard; the Obama admin and legal team says it's legal to kill a USC without due process. Fine, I agree in this case. But how is it then NOT legal to waterboard a non-USC without due process? If a CIA/military officer were to waterboard a probable AQ terrorist who was capture on the battlefield in Afghanistan, and he thought that action was stopping a potential future attack (same logic used by the admin in the AAA strike), then he would likely be prosecuted by DOJ.

Again, I agree with the predator strike(s). But why is killing legal and waterboarding not? If they had captured AAA on the battlefield and he laughed and said something to the effect of "your too late, the next attackers are already in place," they wouldn't have been able to waterboard it out of him, right?


This is what kills me about relying on legal memos that are then buried under executive privilege. I understand the assymetric and unique threat, and I think a majority of the American public also understand, need some sort of transparency.

Look at what happens once there is a change in executive. Those CIA guys should never have went through that political witch hunt. I wish I had an answer.
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby Orenthal » Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:51 pm

That's why I responded for clarification Dan. Your mention of "hiding" the memo, and thinking it would "eventually" have to be released had me thinking you were going after the admin and less so the media. This is being played vey closely to how the Bush admin handled "gray areas".

I have supported the ends so far, but if I say I don't care about the means/process, then I'm pretty absent morals IMO.
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby danwismar » Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:10 pm

Orenthal wrote:That's why I responded for clarification Dan. Your mention of "hiding" the memo, and thinking it would "eventually" have to be released had me thinking you were going after the admin and less so the media. This is being played vey closely to how the Bush admin handled "gray areas".

I have supported the ends so far, but if I say I don't care about the means/process, then I'm pretty absent morals IMO.


I am going after the admin. to the extent that they are failing (so far) to own up to, and defend their legal justification for their actions in the court of public opinion.

The only way it will eventually have to be released is if the media does its job and demands the "transparency" this admin promised and is now refusing to deliver. The Atlantic blog post is a step in the right direction. Let's see what the NYT and the WaPo say in the days to come.
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:41 pm

This is like watching 3 like minded bobbleheads talking politics.
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:00 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:This is like watching 3 like minded bobbleheads talking politics.



So glad you're finally hear to weigh in and bring clarity. I was hoping you'd show you up to help us centrists find our voice.

Now give those bobbleheads what for and make me proud. :clap:

You gonna tell me to go fuck myself?

You are, aren't ya.

You're either begin or end (or maybe both) by telling me to go fuck myself.

I'm just gonna go fuck myself now.
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:43 pm

peeker643 wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:This is like watching 3 like minded bobbleheads talking politics.



So glad you're finally hear to weigh in and bring clarity. I was hoping you'd show you up to help us centrists find our voice.

Now give those bobbleheads what for and make me proud. :clap:

You gonna tell me to go fuck myself?

You are, aren't ya.

You're either begin or end (or maybe both) by telling me to go fuck myself.

I'm just gonna go fuck myself now.



You precious little flower.

I was poking fun at Dan, GoTribe, and OJ.

And you're not a centrist, our only centrist just opened a specialty brothel in Thailand with drug sale proceeds.

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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:52 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:This is like watching 3 like minded bobbleheads talking politics.



So glad you're finally hear to weigh in and bring clarity. I was hoping you'd show you up to help us centrists find our voice.

Now give those bobbleheads what for and make me proud. :clap:

You gonna tell me to go fuck myself?

You are, aren't ya.

You're either begin or end (or maybe both) by telling me to go fuck myself.

I'm just gonna go fuck myself now.



You precious little flower.

I was poking fun at Dan, GoTribe, and OJ.

And you're not a centrist, our only centrist just opened a specialty brothel in Thailand with drug sale proceeds.

oG flesrouy kcuf.


I know you were poking fun at those three gentlemen.

And thank you for not telling me to "Go fuck yourself". I was relieved not to see it anywhere and, believe me, I looked all over the place. Still putting that german in the last sentence through a couple online translators though. I'll see what I can figure out.
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby danwismar » Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:07 am

I love CDT because he always elevates the conversation, and god knows someone has to do comic relief from this shit.

the administration is telling us what their position is, just not their legal basis for it as regards the Constitution...and like I said before, I don't have any problem with their reasoning on this "belligerent", or in general on other "high-level leaders of enemy forces". Link is WaPo.

http://wapo.st/nKjZkJ

The Obama administration has spoken in broad terms about its authority to use military and paramilitary force against al-Qaeda and associated forces beyond “hot,” or traditional, battlefields such as Iraq or Afghanistan. Officials said that certain belligerents aren’t shielded because of their citizenship.

“As a general matter, it would be entirely lawful for the United States to target high-level leaders of enemy forces, regardless of their nationality, who are plotting to kill Americans both under the authority provided by Congress in its use of military force in the armed conflict with al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and associated forces as well as established international law that recognizes our right of self-defense,” an administration official said in a statement Friday.
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby JJN » Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:37 am

Had this have taken place 4 years ago though, I have a hard time not thinking that the NY Times, Harry Reid, Pelosi would have been screaming that it was an extrajudicial killing and Bush should be impeached.


This would have been an extrajudicial killing and Bush should have been impeached. As is, this is an extrajudicial killing and Obama should be impeached.

"Oh, but it would have been hard to bring him to trial." Tough fucking shit. He is owed due process, no matter what manner of scumbag he may have been. If you can't do it, then he walks. If the evidence wasn't strong enough to stand up to trial, how the fuck was it good enough to issue the order to kill him? If you can't do your job within the framework of the Constitution, step down for someone who will. Its that simple.

Erie Warrior wrote:If you don't want to be killed by the government, don't do bad things.

Seems pretty black and white to me.


Because innocent people are never accused and convicted of doing bad things.
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby YahooFanChicago » Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:56 am

No feasible or realistic way to capture these terrorists (American or otherwise) living in uncontrolled 3rd world countries. Kill'em if we have to even if that means walking over the edges of the constitution to do so. It's a slippery slope to disregard the constitution but it's better than the alternative in this case.

Could an innocent American potentially be wrongly killed by accident or by a corrupt government official? In theory I guess. I'm more concerned with protecting as many American's as possible though so I'll sacrifice the few, theoretic wrongly killed to save another September 11th from happening.

With regards to the douche formerly known as al-Awlaki, the great Judge Schmales put it best, "I felt we owed it to him".
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby gotribe31 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:12 am

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:This is like watching 3 like minded bobbleheads talking politics.


Just be greatful you're here to watch the process unfold
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves
-----Abe Lincoln

Let me tell you, if any of you douchebag empty headed stuffed suit nanny politicians tries to fuck with my bacon, I’m going after you like a crazed chimpanzee on bath salts.
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Re: al-Awlaki is Dead....now what?

Unread postby Ziner » Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:01 pm

I have so many other things to be more concerned with than the US killing someone actively attempting to attack the US. Nice work Barry.

p.s. I am the only true centrist in this place anymore. Y'all are a bunch of hacks.
In the end, we're all "only for a limited time," you guys.
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