Text Size

Cleveland Browns & The NFL

Morning after...Colts game

Talk Browns football and discuss the NFL here.

Moderators: peeker643, jb, swerb, pup

Morning after...Colts game

Unread postby JacksonDysonJackson » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:22 am

I haven't been on here in ages. Work and life has gotten in the way, but I actually got to sit down on my couch and watch the game yesterday. Here are my notes:

- Good to get the win, certainly, but we were a few 1st half redzone plays from losing this one. Kudos to the D for keeping us in it early.

- The Colts aren't as bad as the media is making them out to be. (Just as Romo is awesome today vs shit last week) They still have good skill players and a fast defense. Collins certainly hampers them a bit, but they aren't the worst in the league (The Chefs and their MASH unit).

- Gameball goes to Hillis. Wasn't a huge game by any stretch, but he ran hard throughout the game and helped establish some sort of an offense early on.

- Didn't really like the playcalling from Schurmur. He didn't take any shots down the field to loosen up the defense, which is one of the biggest annoyances I see in the new HC. (The only exception was the pass to MoMass to the 1...but that actually seemed more of a broken play, with McCoy scrambling to the sideline and winging a jump-ball.) To his credit, he stuck with Hillis and the run, which eventually opened up the short to intermediate passing game. A few deep chucks early would have been helpful though, IMO.

- They need to run Hillis on the edges more. Sweeps, off-tackle...that stuff. It was my contention last season (and still is now) that he is best on those plays, than he is hammering it right up the gut (the majority of his calls yesterday). Seems weird, since he's such a battering ram, but a sweep allows him to get a head of steam and forces DBs to come up and make a play on him. Need more of that. (His one play to the perimeter was the second touchdown)

- Don't get me wrong, JLo is hot. Like really hot. But running that damn Fiat commercial so many times made me pine to see what next week held for CSI.

- Where was Hardesty for the whole game? And why play him in the redzone for his only two plays of the game? This pick is shaping up as a bust.

- Decent-to-good games by MoMass and Little. Mr. Little may become a player with some polish.

- Pretty good game by Colt. He was accurate and made some plays with his feet. The touchdown strike to Moore was a great pass (although Hillis was wide open in front of him at like the 4). Most importantly, no picks. Seemed like a typical “Good Colt” game. Still, we’ll need more deep passes.

- Really good game by the Dline. Taylor, Rubin, and Sheard all flashed dominance, although Mr Sheard’s Clay Matthews (Oilers in 87?) impression gave me heart palpitations.

- Great game by Thomas. WIth the excpetion of the sack / fumble play, he neutralized Freeney.

- Cribbs needs more plays on offense.

- Overall, good game, and like I said…good to get the win. Need to play better next week.
User avatar
JacksonDysonJackson
 
Posts: 428
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:32 pm
Favorite Player: Bernie
Least Favorite Player: Derek

Re: Morning after...Colts game

Unread postby Prosecutor » Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:30 pm

Agree with most of your comments, except maybe the need for throwing a few long passes to loosen up the defense. See, I'm not convinced that works. To me it's just an incomplete pass and a waste of a down, plus you don't want to be standing in the pocket very long against Freeney and Mathis.

Last year the Browns threw deep for Robiskie several times and it was just a wasted play. I don't think it worried the defense or forced them to keep a safey back or have the corners give a bigger cushion. We just don't have receivers who can get behind the secondary and opponents know it. They're not going to loosen up just because we throw a long incomplete pass or two.

I agree Hillis deserves a game ball but so does McCoy, Cribbs, Thomas, and Sheard, IMO. Actually it was a team effort with significant contributions from the offense, defense and ST. Nobody had a huge day, although Cribbs came up big with the 52-yard KO return and the 43-yard punt return, as well as a nice gain off a swing pass. McCoy was accurate and error-free, except for the fumble that was mostly Thomas' fault. He also bought some time with his legs to make plays, including the long pass to Massaquoi that set up one TD and the TD pass to Moore - both off broken plays where he escaped the pocket.
Prosecutor
Plutonian Outliers
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 11:59 am

Re: Morning after...Colts game

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:36 pm

Good analysis. Good to have you around.

About throwing deep. I agree on a philosophical level that you have to take shots down the field. But, it seems like when Hillis is far and away your biggest offensive threat, those 3 downs you have are precious. And taking a low percentage shot down the field has a potential to be a drive killer. Kill a few drives with incompletions and we are all talking about how the offense was better with Mangini in charge.

It's a good idea and ultimately necessary to throw deep. But I also understand the "it never feels like the right time to try it" aspect of the whole thing too.

About Hardesty - I have no idea what the hell that was all about. Dude gets 3 carries (or whatever it was) all inside the 5 where the Defense is compressed, all up at the line, and expecting the run. I'm not ready to call him a bust after that "opportunity."
According to my sources CDT farts in the tub and bites the bubbles.
User avatar
motherscratcher
Little Larry Sellers
 
Posts: 7748
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 9:14 pm
Location: La La Land
Favorite Player: Ernie Camacho
Least Favorite Player: Jose Mesa

Re: Morning after...Colts game

Unread postby mattvan1 » Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:47 pm

Prosecutor wrote:Agree with most of your comments, except maybe the need for throwing a few long passes to loosen up the defense. See, I'm not convinced that works. To me it's just an incomplete pass and a waste of a down, plus you don't want to be standing in the pocket very long against Freeney and Mathis.

Last year the Browns threw deep for Robiskie several times and it was just a wasted play. I don't think it worried the defense or forced them to keep a safey back or have the corners give a bigger cushion. We just don't have receivers who can get behind the secondary and opponents know it. They're not going to loosen up just because we throw a long incomplete pass or two.


I think the idea is to actually complete one. Robiske doesn't scare anyone. Little should. But we'll never know because we never try to throw something deep. Because we don't? Or can't?

As for the OP regarding Hillis - he is a betwen the tackles north-south guy. Running east-west completely takes away from his strengths, and he'll never make the corner. Hardesty is not that quick to the outside either. I guess that is the role Cribbs should play.
I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever.
- CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team
User avatar
mattvan1
 
Posts: 3717
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:41 pm
Location: Houston

Re: Morning after...Colts game

Unread postby JacksonDysonJackson » Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:57 pm

Pros:
except maybe the need for throwing a few long passes to loosen up the defense. See, I'm not convinced that works. To me it's just an incomplete pass and a waste of a down, plus you don't want to be standing in the pocket very long against Freeney and Mathis.


As mattvan said, the hope is you would actually (gasp!) complete some of these passes. But even if you didnt, its not necessarily a wasted play. By only calling quick slants and outs, you are compressing the D toward teh LoS. For a run first team like us, that ain't good. Plus, late in the game, the DBs will start jumping those quick outs...like the play that almost changed those whole complexion of the game when the Colt CB (forget who) dropped a potential pick 6. By going deep, even for only a few token plays early, you drop the seed of doubt in the DB's mind.

MoScratch
About throwing deep. I agree on a philosophical level that you have to take shots down the field. But, it seems like when Hillis is far and away your biggest offensive threat, those 3 downs you have are precious. And taking a low percentage shot down the field has a potential to be a drive killer. Kill a few drives with incompletions and we are all talking about how the offense was better with Mangini in charge.

It's a good idea and ultimately necessary to throw deep. But I also understand the "it never feels like the right time to try it" aspect of the whole thing too.


This is a good point, and I dont necessarily disagree. There were certainly times yesterday when I was in "if-anyone-but-Hillis-touches-the-ball-here-its-a-bad-play-mode". But, eventually, we have to move towards being a Big Boy Offense. Besides the in-game benefits (above) we'll never know what we truly have in Colt or our young Wrs if they are never given the chance to go deep. Hell, maybe we'll even get a PI call or two. And again...I'm talking about doing this early in the game.

About Hardesty - I have no idea what the hell that was all about. Dude gets 3 carries (or whatever it was) all inside the 5 where the Defense is compressed, all up at the line, and expecting the run. I'm not ready to call him a bust after that "opportunity."


Bust was a little harsh, but there were many times yesterday when Hillis needed a breather, and they just kept him in the game. Was this stupidity on Schumur's part? Or is Montario just not ready for prime time? If its the latter...bust might be appropriate. With Hills' running style, he needs an adequate backup. Apparently, we dont have one yet.


mattvan
As for the OP regarding Hillis - he is a betwen the tackles north-south guy. Running east-west completely takes away from his strengths, and he'll never make the corner. Hardesty is not that quick to the outside either.


I disagree. His biggest runs last year can on plays off the edges. I'm not saying to run reverses with the guy, but good gawd, he has enough speed to go off tackle or to run a sweep. His bread and butter will always be between the tackles, but Schmur would be wise to run him 5-7 times per game out on the perimeter. Off tackle on JT's side should be a staple in the offense.
User avatar
JacksonDysonJackson
 
Posts: 428
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:32 pm
Favorite Player: Bernie
Least Favorite Player: Derek

Re: Morning after...Colts game

Unread postby hiko » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:26 pm

mattvan1 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:Agree with most of your comments, except maybe the need for throwing a few long passes to loosen up the defense. See, I'm not convinced that works. To me it's just an incomplete pass and a waste of a down, plus you don't want to be standing in the pocket very long against Freeney and Mathis.

Last year the Browns threw deep for Robiskie several times and it was just a wasted play. I don't think it worried the defense or forced them to keep a safey back or have the corners give a bigger cushion. We just don't have receivers who can get behind the secondary and opponents know it. They're not going to loosen up just because we throw a long incomplete pass or two.


I think the idea is to actually complete one. Robiske doesn't scare anyone. Little should. But we'll never know because we never try to throw something deep. Because we don't? Or can't?

As for the OP regarding Hillis - he is a betwen the tackles north-south guy. Running east-west completely takes away from his strengths, and he'll never make the corner. Hardesty is not that quick to the outside either. I guess that is the role Cribbs should play.


Agree with Matt - throwing a deep pass to Robo might be a wasted down, but Little or Mo Mass or Mitchell (should he ever see the field) or even Cribbs (who has the speed but not the WR skills) might result in a big play, and when your O runs through Hillis, you really DO need to loosen that D up some.
User avatar
hiko
 
Posts: 1052
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:13 am
Favorite Player: Gray
Least Favorite Player: Black and White

Re: Morning after...Colts game

Unread postby JacksonDysonJackson » Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:44 pm

Couple things I forgot to add:

- Very disappointing to see Hillis fumble. I was hoping he worked on this (Tiki Barber grip?) in the offseason. Simply can't have him coughing up the football.

- Thought DQuell played terrible. He was consistently caught up in the wash and unable to shed blockers. We need 3 new starting LBs.
User avatar
JacksonDysonJackson
 
Posts: 428
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:32 pm
Favorite Player: Bernie
Least Favorite Player: Derek

Re: Morning after...Colts game

Unread postby mattvan1 » Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:26 pm

JacksonDysonJackson wrote: mattvan
As for the OP regarding Hillis - he is a betwen the tackles north-south guy. Running east-west completely takes away from his strengths, and he'll never make the corner. Hardesty is not that quick to the outside either.


I disagree. His biggest runs last year can on plays off the edges. I'm not saying to run reverses with the guy, but good gawd, he has enough speed to go off tackle or to run a sweep. His bread and butter will always be between the tackles, but Schmur would be wise to run him 5-7 times per game out on the perimeter. Off tackle on JT's side should be a staple in the offense.


Maybe semantics - Agree with you 100% if you want to run Hillis off the outside hip of the OT. But I am not going to include too many toss sweeps on my Hillis playsheet.

BTW, and this is not in response to your post but just a general comment, without Vickers and the fact that we are running less 2 TE sets will have a negative effect on his production. I do not expect the same Hillis as we saw last year. Hope I'm wrong.
I don't need to be patient, they're going to be shit forever.
- CDT, discussing my favorite NFL team
User avatar
mattvan1
 
Posts: 3717
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:41 pm
Location: Houston

Re: Morning after...Colts game

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:31 pm

JDJ, I can't agree with half of this. (And usually i'm pretty much smelling what you're stepping in)

1. I don't think we're a "run first" offense any more at all. The first two weeks have shown me that Shurmur is going to rely on a quick passing attack from 5-15 yds out, which is basically what we saw from him last and should expect this year. We're setting up the run with the pass, not the other way around. (And this falls in line with the other post, that the NFL is a pass-first league and we better get it going)

2. Throwing the deep ball is important to stretch the defense, but the underneath passes were open all day. The drives that stalled did so because the O-line was getting completely swarmed every play, not because there were too many men in the box. Hillis didn't have holes, and when he did, he missed them.

3. They ran 4-5 outside runs in the game, that I saw. Every time Hillis attempted to bounce it outside, someone missed a block and he got LEVELED. Even the passes to the flats that Colt threw to him and Marecic got DESTROYED at the catch, without any space to throw. That was really a product of #2 above, and IMO led to Colt being unable to set up in the pocket and throw it downfield. Terrible, TERRIBLE game by the O-line, and it wasn't any better last week.

4. Expanding on #3, Mass and Little were bigger and faster than the Colts CB's. Those Quick outs and slants were working all day.

Agreed about Robo finding the pine, the guy just isn't getting any separation off the block. I tend to thinK Cribbs belong in the slot more, because his YAC is deadly. (which he showed yesterday on a few plays drawn for him) Robo is simply depth at this point, and I imagine he just spells the other wideouts this year before getting DFW after the year.

Hardesty needs a drive or two early in the game; can't run Hillis 25 times a game right into the line and expect him to stay fresh, but throwing Hardesty in at goal line is foolish and borderline insane when your primary back is such a force. Would be like subbing Plaxico Burress in the red zone to play Cotchery, or some such noise.

Collins really didn't look that bad yesterday; Colt played as well as can be expected. If you told us before the year that Colt would be at 400+ yds, 4 tds/1 int after 2 games.....I think we'd all be pretty satisfied. Fix the protection/run blocking issues and go.
Check me out at Dawgsbynature, where I write stuff, or @twitter as Josh Finney.
User avatar
Gradysmanldy
 
Posts: 1530
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:58 pm
Favorite Player: Melts Parmageddon
Least Favorite Player: The East Coast media

Re: Morning after...Colts game

Unread postby municipalmutt » Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:53 pm

Is it possible that Colt holds on the ball too long, the O-line is not doing their jobs, AND the receivers aren't getting separation? It seems like different schools of thought try to prop up one of those individual arguments and try to have you believe it is one and not the other two's fault. I hate to sound like Forrest Gump, but isn't it possible that all of those things are going on at the same time?
User avatar
municipalmutt
 
Posts: 605
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:42 am

Re: Morning after...Colts game

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:45 pm

municipalmutt wrote:Is it possible that Colt holds on the ball too long, the O-line is not doing their jobs, AND the receivers aren't getting separation? It seems like different schools of thought try to prop up one of those individual arguments and try to have you believe it is one and not the other two's fault. I hate to sound like Forrest Gump, but isn't it possible that all of those things are going on at the same time?


I think there's some of all that for sure.

And don't minimize the effect that either losing or rotating 60% of your offensive line has on a new and evolving offense. This system is radically different than last year's and that has to be understood regardless of whether you think Colt is ultimately the guy or not.

Yesterday was an odd matchup. Freeney and Mathis demand your TEs and backs chip them before they get into their patterns. For better or worse Watson is your BEST blocking TE and he spent most of his day in protection which is why Alex Smith saw more receptions than Watson did.

It is all of the above in this case and it should get better once they have more experience in the offense and once (if?) the rotating OL issue is resolved.
"Great minds think alike. The opposite is also true."

"None of us is as dumb as all of us."


I'm on Twitter at http://twitter.com/peeker643
User avatar
peeker643
Duly Noted
 
Posts: 22782
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:33 pm
Favorite Player: Smokey Rowe
Least Favorite Player: Dingle Stetson

Re: Morning after...Colts game

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Mon Sep 19, 2011 6:13 pm

Glad to get the win, Colt played well considering he was running for his life most of the game.

But the Colts are as bad they're made out to be. Their defense looked fast because our O-line was AWFUL. Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark are solid, the rest of them are blah.

It's a win and i'll take it, the Dolphins are very beatable. 2-1 ain't such a bad start.
"Our name is Legion, for we are many."
User avatar
Cerebral_DownTime
Go f#%k yourself
 
Posts: 14422
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:31 am
Location: Galloway Ohio
Favorite Player: Fenrir
Least Favorite Player: Walt Flannigan's dog


Return to Cleveland Browns & The NFL

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot] and 1 guest

cron

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 181 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:50 pm

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot] and 1 guest