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The Case for a Rebuild

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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby rigs » Sat Sep 17, 2011 4:35 pm

What Harry said is exactly what I have been saying, however, I don't have the energy to type 11 paragraphs.

I think there is a 100 percent chance they add a formidable middle of the order hitter. Otherwise, the Ubaldo trade is pointless.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby bac5665 » Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:10 pm

So who is that bat? Who's available that we can get?
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:18 pm

bac5665 wrote:So who is that bat? Who's available that we can get?


I'm one of those people that would love to see the Indians go apeshit crazy and go all in for Pujols/Fielder, 2018 be damned. Of course, that's probably pretty unlikely, as many of you have pointed out that it's not so much the annual salary the Dolans would balk at, but the high number of years they'd be paying that salary.

So, just throwing this out as a possibility: what if we try acquiring a so-called "bad contract" player who is still reasonably productive (which means they're an all-star compared to some of the guys we've been running out there the last few years) but also has a much shorter--and therefore, "safer"--contract remaining. Someone like Carlos Lee, who could DH, assuming Hafner is out again (or, better yet, released). Yeah, he wouldn't be a huge factor, but he could help, and could conceivably be had for relatively cheap if we'd pick up the remainder of the contract. Bat him 6th or 7th and use the remaining trade chips on a higher-impact, more productive player to bat 4th (or, better yet, find one in free agency), and things start looking up.

Now, who that mystery cleanup hitter is, yeah, I couldn't tell you yet, either! But he's out there, and they've got to find him.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby swerb » Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:19 pm

Yep. Carlos Lee, Jason Bay .... one of those guys. Seems the most likely.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby OldDawg » Sat Sep 17, 2011 10:46 pm

Hey guys. I agree that we go for it in the next couple of years. However, does it have to be through free agency? I don't follow the other teams like many of you guys do. But I am thinking about some of the trades we had to make in recent years. We had to trade CC and Lee for prospects because we knew we couldn't $ign either of them in free agency. Is it possible to be on the other end of that kind of trade? Is there a team out there that has no chance of competing who has a stud who is on a last year on his contract (and the team knows they can't re-sign him and wants something for him). I know our prospect list is a little depleted, so I am sure that is an issue.

I am almost willing to go with the "rent-a-roster" for a year like the Marlins did in 1997 when the beat the Tribe in the WS.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby Bigfist » Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:34 am

Maybe because it is because I am old, crotchety, jaded, worn out...insert any adjective you want. I think that it is incredibly unlikely that this team will go out in FA and get an impact bat. I loathe the next Kearns, etc., signing, but that is what I am expecting. While a trade is possible, I doubt it will be for a front liner. And besides, what do we have to trade? Our best trading chips are being counted on to be part of the core that is expected to help us contend the next two years. You can't have it both ways. Right now, our system is stocked with relievers...and that is about it. Name me one potential impact bat anywhere in the minor league system? I cannot think of one. How about a front of the line starter somewhere in the minors? Any name come to mind?

I guess I tend to be more on the pessimistic side than most, but I have seen this same scenario played out a dozen times, in some shape or form that is similar to this one, the last fifty years. And except for our run in the 90's, it turns out to be false hope.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby pup » Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:40 am

OIC can we pass on Carlos Lee in free agency because of the length of the contract and concern he would suck at the end of it.

Only to go out and acquire him near the end of that contract.

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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby Am I Here Again? » Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:19 pm

Bigfist wrote:Maybe because it is because I am old, crotchety, jaded, worn out...insert any adjective you want.......I guess I tend to be more on the pessimistic side than most, but I have seen this same scenario played out a dozen times, in some shape or form that is similar to this one, the last fifty years.........

Similar to what I said on Page One except for one thing: I don't think of myself so much as a pessimist as a realist. It's the experience year after decade after score that makes a Tribe fan decide to either hang in with the team and hope for something big or move on to a perennial winning team and get to cheer rather hollowly each year. Me? I'd rather go deaf and never be able to listen to Hammy again rather than have to listen to John Sterling and Susyn Waldman. Besides, I still end up deaf if I had to listen to them - probably as a result of having to shove those chopsticks into my ears... Like an ill-fated love affair it's Tribe till I die.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby rigs » Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:38 pm

LOL...Carlos Lee. Doesn't he have like 4 homers in that band box?
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby rigs » Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:02 pm

Assuming reasonable arbitration numbers and picking up Carmona (but not Sizemore), payroll would be at about $52 million. This should leave, what, 20 million extra to spend?
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby trsteve1 » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:02 am

So.. I don't know how this factors into anything.. but I was bored the other day... and if you assume a healthy lineup of c-Santana, 1b-LaPorta, 2b-Kipnis, ss-cabrera, 3b-chiz, lf-brantley, cf-sizemore, rf-choo .. all these guys are high strikeout guys, if they had all played full seasons they all would have struck out 100+ times.. with some (LaPorta and Chiz) on pace for less than 50 walks..

Just something I noticed, and thought was a bit concerning..
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby swerb » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:59 am

rigs wrote:Assuming reasonable arbitration numbers and picking up Carmona (but not Sizemore), payroll would be at about $52 million. This should leave, what, 20 million extra to spend?

http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ss ... off-s.html

This year's team opened with a payroll of just over $49 million, the smallest in seven years. To start the 2012 season with basically the same roster is expected to push the payroll to close to $70 million. It's unlikely that would happen, but the Indians are facing some big decisions that will shape the 2012 payroll.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:45 am

swerb wrote:Yep. Carlos Lee, Jason Bay .... one of those guys. Seems the most likely.



How about Micheal Young? I think he is 38 and you definitley cant expect a repeat of this years production so maybe Texas could be realistic when thinking about dealing him and not asking for top players and for a team to take on his contract like they did this offseason.

If we could just get him for Money he would be my target. Even a half decent Micheal Young at 1st would be an imrpovement
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:19 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
swerb wrote:Yep. Carlos Lee, Jason Bay .... one of those guys. Seems the most likely.



How about Micheal Young? I think he is 38 and you definitley cant expect a repeat of this years production so maybe Texas could be realistic when thinking about dealing him and not asking for top players and for a team to take on his contract like they did this offseason.

If we could just get him for Money he would be my target. Even a half decent Micheal Young at 1st would be an imrpovement


He'll be 35 next month.

The Rangers were looking to deal him because they picked up Beltre in the off-season and felt they didn't have a place for him to play. Clearly they figured that problem out.

If they try to deal him in the off season, they sure as hell aren't going to give him away, not after this year. Look at his career numbers. He's been a pretty consistent player throughout most of his career.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby swerb » Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:53 pm

Numbers Young is putting up this season are insane. .331/.374/.472, 11 HR, 40 2B, 101 RBIs, 80 runs.

Dude is quietly building (has built?) a Hall of Fame career.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:08 pm

WiscTribeFan wrote:
He'll be 35 next month.

The Rangers were looking to deal him because they picked up Beltre in the off-season and felt they didn't have a place for him to play. Clearly they figured that problem out.

If they try to deal him in the off season, they sure as hell aren't going to give him away, not after this year. Look at his career numbers. He's been a pretty consistent player throughout most of his career.


Yeah but to expect the same production or anything really close out of a 36 year old is unrealistic. I'm saying maybe they decide to be pre-emptive and they want to dump the salary now and not risk it because if the wheels fall off next year then they would be stuck with his contract. Its a gamble for them if they decide to keep him or whatever team he goes too. That being said even if they decided to give him away at least one team might be tempted to give up some value.


Also Young asked out. He never actually rescinded his request. The Rangers were just being unrealistic in their demands that is why he didnt get traded not because they found a place for him. So I can still see him wanting out, it was more of a disrespect issue for Young he just didnt make a big deal about it during the season because he is a classy guy.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:43 pm

Let's see if I've got this right...

Texas should dump him because it is unrealistic to think that a 35 year old won't put up numbers to justify his salary, but Cleveland should pick up the remaining $36M on his contract because he will.

FWIW from mlbtraderumors.com

Michael Young was the subject of near-constant trade rumors last offseason. He tells the Associated Press (link via ESPN) that he never really wanted to leave Texas, even after he requested a trade. The Rangers are glad they held on to Young, who has a .331/.374/.472 line with 40 doubles this year
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby rigs » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:48 pm

Swerb
Show me how Hoynes' math makes any sense. I trust IPI more.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby RobStad » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:05 pm

rigs wrote:Despite the quick start, the Tribe will most likely end up with the 8th or 9th best record in the AL (out of 14 teams). They have two years to contend basically. Are they really that close? Option 1 would be to spend a lot, lot of cash this off season. If they aren't willing to do that, it might be time for a rebuild...again.

I probably wouldn't do this int the winter, but if June rolls around and we are 8-10 out, they kind of have to. You just have to have someone else make the deals other than the guy who traded Lee. Deal Choo, Cabrera, Ubaldo, Perez, etc. Build around Santana, Chiz, Kipnis, Brantley and possibly Masterson if you can lock him up.


You're 8-10 out next June and you want to blow the whole thing up and start over in year one of a 2-3 year open window on contention? After the last three years of sacrifice to get here?

Thank God you're not the GM.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby Bigfist » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:12 am

Actually, the trade for Jimenez showed that THIS was year one of the 3 year window. Next year will be year 2.
2013 is year 3...after which time guys like Choo, Cabrera, Masterson, and Carmona are likely gone.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:55 pm

[quote="WiscTribeFan"]Let's see if I've got this right...

Texas should dump him because it is unrealistic to think that a 35 year old won't put up numbers to justify his salary, but Cleveland should pick up the remaining $36M on his contract because he will.

quote]


No you dont have it straight.

I covered that above. Its a risk for either team. Yes it is a risk that a will be 36 year old will not repeat his offensive performance from this year. I dont think he will repeat this year, I think there will be a decline. But when compared to other guys like Carlos Lee, I would rather the Indians take on this risk instead of soembody like Lee or Bay.

Also I never said he WOULD repeat those numbers, so I dont know where you got that for him. Im not saying Cleveland should trade from him because he will repeat and Texas should trade him because he wont, that is assanine.


Also I go to mlbtraderumors alot as well, there are many reports that back both our points. Go back and read ALL of the posts from NOV thru the beginning of Spring training that concern Micheal Young and not just the ones that support your claim.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:00 pm

Bigfist wrote:Actually, the trade for Jimenez showed that THIS was year one of the 3 year window. Next year will be year 2.
2013 is year 3...after which time guys like Choo, Cabrera, Masterson, and Carmona are likely gone.



Dont we have Masterson for 4 or 5 more years? Plus he seems like a guy who is open to a team friendly extension that covers maybe a year or two of free agency. So I dont think he situation is as dire.

I think its a good bet that at least one of those guys gets locked up to an extension. Plus who knows mayeb Ubaldo wont void his 2014 player option :pigs:
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby Bigfist » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:35 pm

Masterson made the 25 man roster with the Red Sox in 2008. Of course, he was not in the majors all of that time, but baseball reference says he can become a free agent after the 2014 season. So, yes, we have rights to him one more year than Jimenez, Cabrera, and Choo. If Masterson is pitching next year like he has this year, I think you can forget about him signing a contract that locks him up through any of his free agent years...arbitration..yes, but not free agency.

I like your optimism, though...but history teaches us that few players in Cleveland will give the team a hometown discount.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby trsteve1 » Tue Sep 20, 2011 7:36 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
swerb wrote:Yep. Carlos Lee, Jason Bay .... one of those guys. Seems the most likely.



How about Micheal Young? I think he is 38 and you definitley cant expect a repeat of this years production so maybe Texas could be realistic when thinking about dealing him and not asking for top players and for a team to take on his contract like they did this offseason.

If we could just get him for Money he would be my target. Even a half decent Micheal Young at 1st would be an imrpovement



Pass on Young, he's a stud.. In TEXAS

Career home/away splits

Home - .325/.373/.492
Away - .281/.326/.410

that's a BIG difference home vs away

Not getting to hit 81 games in Arlington would kill him..
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby rigs » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:20 pm

because next summer, if out of it, you now have one year left in "window." makes sense. goal is to not be "out of it" at that point. Offseason and April through June are so important.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby rigs » Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:24 pm

Every time I think it would be a good idea to trade one of our bullpen guys for a bat, I see stiffs like Zach Putnam and Josh Judy and think otherwise
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby paulcousineau » Tue Sep 20, 2011 10:30 pm

Bigfist wrote:Masterson made the 25 man roster with the Red Sox in 2008. Of course, he was not in the majors all of that time, but baseball reference says he can become a free agent after the 2014 season. So, yes, we have rights to him one more year than Jimenez, Cabrera, and Choo. If Masterson is pitching next year like he has this year, I think you can forget about him signing a contract that locks him up through any of his free agent years...arbitration..yes, but not free agency.

I like your optimism, though...but history teaches us that few players in Cleveland will give the team a hometown discount.

That's not entirely true as the last incarnation of the Indians were full of players that gave the team a "hometown discount"...they just did it early enough in their career so their departure overshadows it.

If you remember that 2004 to 2009 team, it was full of guys who were earning far less than they could have had they gone through arbitration, with a number sacrificing years of FA for the security of a long-term deal early on. Not many people remember this, but CC signed a 2-year, $17.5M extension in 2005 that exercised his 2006 option that was part of the first long-term "hometown discount" deal that he signed. In signing the extension, he sacrificed FA years.

Once these guys get 7 or 8 years in and they can cash in, yeah...they're going to fly the coop, but (just as an example) Cliff Lee signed a 4-year, $15M deal back in 2006 with a club option for 2010 that (again, giving up a FA year) so when these players (when young) are approached with guaranteed money on the table, they'll give a "hometown discount" to some degree.

It wouldn't surprise me at all this off-season if the Indians did what they did back in 2005 and 2006 when they inked CC, Lee, Grady, Vic (5 years, $15.5M inked in 2005 with club option for 2010), among others to deals that locked them up and kept him on The Reservation for a few extra years with the allure of a guaranteed contract. It doesn't add huge numbers to the immediate budget as the salaries escalate year-to-year, but it gives the players the incentive (guaranteed money) to sacrifice potential FA years.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby gotribe31 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:58 am

rigs wrote:Every time I think it would be a good idea to trade one of our bullpen guys for a bat, I see stiffs like Zach Putnam and Josh Judy and think otherwise


I don't even know what this means. Putnam is a 24 year old with about a K/IP in AAA last year, and an ERA in the mid-3s. He keeps the ball on the ground and has a nice mix of pitches. Judy is 25, an ERA in the low-3s, and more than a K/IP. Both of these guys could easily be bullpen options going forward.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:38 am

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:No you dont have it straight.


Aside from consistently getting his age wrong (he's 34 until mid-October), I guess I'm not sure what your point really is with regards to Young.

You seem to think that Texas might consider dealing him, not asking for top talent because they are 'realistic' in their expectations about him.

I think he is 38 and you definitley cant expect a repeat of this years production so maybe Texas could be realistic when thinking about dealing him and not asking for top players and for a team to take on his contract like they did this offseason.

If we could just get him for Money he would be my target. Even a half decent Micheal Young at 1st would be an imrpovement


OK, fair enough. Every trading partner has a reason to want to move someone. In order for the Tribe to be able to justify taking on $32M in salary (a figure I misquoted at $36M before), they're going to have to believe that he's going to be able to put up fairly similar or strong numbers over the next two years. You can't take on that kind of coin (he'd be the highest paid Indian) without feeling pretty sure that he's not gonna crap out, leaving the team in the bag. At $16M a season, you can't just have a 'half-way decent' Young for two years, not on this team.

Let's turn the tables. If he were an Indian, a veteran guy leading the team in two offensive categories as the team heads to the playoffs, would you deal him in the off-season for little or nothing just to shed his contract?

For what it's worth, I do agree that he'd be an upgrade on this team. I just don't see Texas trading him for peanuts, or that Cleveland would be willing to take on that entire salary. Maybe I'm wrong about the Cleveland angle, but I'm pretty sure I'm not about the Texas one. They asked for a lot in the off season because he's a great ball-player. They could have given him away if they really simply wanted to shed that salary. Someone would have happily taken him off their hands for nothing. It turns out that they were smart to keep him.

I actually thought, when the whole trade request drama started, that he'd have been a great pickup for the Tribe, but with most folks expecting the team to be mediocre at best, I figured they wouldn't bother going after an expensive veteran like Young

If Texas goes deep in the playoffs, I don't see them dealing him at all, being honest. Despite all the drama, he's still a team leader and their most productive player. You don't deal those kind of players and not get something back. Well, unless you're the Indians.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:57 am

gotribe31 wrote:
rigs wrote:Every time I think it would be a good idea to trade one of our bullpen guys for a bat, I see stiffs like Zach Putnam and Josh Judy and think otherwise


I don't even know what this means. Putnam is a 24 year old with about a K/IP in AAA last year, and an ERA in the mid-3s. He keeps the ball on the ground and has a nice mix of pitches. Judy is 25, an ERA in the low-3s, and more than a K/IP. Both of these guys could easily be bullpen options going forward.


I wouldn't be averse to dealing C Perez and one of Sipp/Raffy Perez. That might be the most tradeable commodity.

And I look forward to the meltdown when an a couple vets are signed cheaply (like Durbin was this season to eat innings, etc) to provide depth while guys like Hagadone, Judy and Putnam, et al compete for spots.

I don't know why I say that really. No history for it other than it happens every single year at the same time of the year and the same argument is made that a vet is holding guys like Pestano and Hermann back. :hide:
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby tecs » Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:18 am

peeker643 wrote:
gotribe31 wrote:
rigs wrote:I wouldn't be averse to dealing C Perez and one of Sipp/Raffy Perez. That might be the most tradeable commodity.

:hide:


You want to start dismantling the teams' strength? While Perez wasn't lights out at times this season he's got the stuff and mental makeup to become a top tier closer for at least the next 3-4 years until they probably lose him to free agency. There's got to be a better way to get a legitimate RH power hitter into this lineup without having to break up the makings of a pretty good bullpen.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:32 am

tecs wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
gotribe31 wrote:
rigs wrote:I wouldn't be averse to dealing C Perez and one of Sipp/Raffy Perez. That might be the most tradeable commodity.

:hide:


You want to start dismantling the teams' strength? While Perez wasn't lights out at times this season he's got the stuff and mental makeup to become a top tier closer for at least the next 3-4 years until they probably lose him to free agency. There's got to be a better way to get a legitimate RH power hitter into this lineup without having to break up the makings of a pretty good bullpen.


I don't want to dismantle anything. But Perez has been up and down IMO this season. His walks-ks is poor, he averages just over 1/2 a K per inning and IMO he's been average.

I understand the risk associated with rearranging roles in the bullpen and the chance that guys in those roles fall down. But Perez being average and becoming more expensive down the road makes me inclined to see if Pestano can handle the job and to see what Perez would bring in return.

If I'm wrong the team is in big trouble though given bullpens are so reliant on roles, etc. I get that. But the pantry is relatively bare in terms of tradeable commodities. And this bullpen, despite as well as they've performed, wasn't able to overcome the offensive adversity of the team.

IMO you either sit tight and hope for health and a resurgence from guys like Grady, Hafner, etc or you need to make some upgrades using the commodities you have.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:22 pm

trsteve1 wrote:
Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
swerb wrote:Yep. Carlos Lee, Jason Bay .... one of those guys. Seems the most likely.



How about Micheal Young? I think he is 38 and you definitley cant expect a repeat of this years production so maybe Texas could be realistic when thinking about dealing him and not asking for top players and for a team to take on his contract like they did this offseason.

If we could just get him for Money he would be my target. Even a half decent Micheal Young at 1st would be an imrpovement



Pass on Young, he's a stud.. In TEXAS

Career home/away splits

Home - .325/.373/.492
Away - .281/.326/.410

that's a BIG difference home vs away

Not getting to hit 81 games in Arlington would kill him..


Sometimes the home/away game is tough to play. Take a look at someone like Choo last year for the Tribe:

Home - .335/.436/.514
Away - .265/.364/.452

Those are some significant differences at well, and most players seem to play better at home than on the road. I'm not sure you can transpose the Away numbers on any player to mean that they will become the Home numbers if they leave the team they are on.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Wed Sep 21, 2011 12:46 pm

peeker643 wrote:IMO you either sit tight and hope for health and a resurgence from guys like Grady, Hafner, etc or you need to make some upgrades using the commodities you have.


I've said it before, if our improvement strategy is based on Hafner staying healthy and Sizemore staying healthy and playing like he once played, then we are doomed.

Cleveland's GM didn't trade their top 2 pitching prospects at the deadline because it was the conventional thing to do. I don't expect this off-season to be any different. Anyone not named Justin or Ubaldo is probably fair game if it gives the team an over-all improvement.

Perez has been solid the last two years, but as Peek aptly mentions, his peripherals have been somewhat suspect. His K/9 has gone from 11 a few years ago to under 6, which is down from last year's 9. It's the ~1:1 K/BB ratio that concerns me. Drew Storen, another young closer, has a K/9 number close to 9, and a K/BB of 3.5. Those are numbers you'd like to see in your closer.

CP's save numbers have been great, but many didn't seem to care about that much when Joe Borowski was saving 36 and 45 for the Tribe. You heard a lot of 'the most over-rated stat in baseball is 'saves'.

I'm not advocating dumping him for nothing, but I'd also not sign him to a 5 year, $50M extension either. At some point his not missing bats will come back to haunt him unless he finds that magic and pushes his numbers into a more lock-down closer-like zone, something he hasn't been in the second half of this year.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby gotribe31 » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:50 am

tecs wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
gotribe31 wrote:
rigs wrote:I wouldn't be averse to dealing C Perez and one of Sipp/Raffy Perez. That might be the most tradeable commodity.

:hide:


You want to start dismantling the teams' strength? While Perez wasn't lights out at times this season he's got the stuff and mental makeup to become a top tier closer for at least the next 3-4 years until they probably lose him to free agency. There's got to be a better way to get a legitimate RH power hitter into this lineup without having to break up the makings of a pretty good bullpen.


It wouldn't be dismantling anything, it would be dealing from depth. We have a ton of bullpen arms in the pipeline, guys like CC Lee, Hagadone, Putnam, Judy, Bryson, Stowell etc who are legit power arms that could be options as soon as this year. Not saying all of them will be dominant bullpen guys, but there is more depth there than anywhere else in the org.

I'm much more concerned with Perez's physical makeup than mental makeup. Pestano was a closer througout his minor league career, so he's got experience in the roll and could likely step right in and be successful. Bottom line, if someone offers you real value for either Perez this offseason, you take it and don't look back.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:09 pm

WiscTribeFan wrote:
Dnthateonthepronk wrote:No you dont have it straight.







Sorry after I looked at this I realize it looked way more harsh than it sounded in my head
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:16 pm

WiscTribeFan wrote:
Let's turn the tables. If he were an Indian, a veteran guy leading the team in two offensive categories as the team heads to the playoffs, would you deal him in the off-season for little or nothing just to shed his contract?




Probably. It would really depend on if I needed that money to sign more important younger players.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:20 pm

WiscTribeFan wrote:
If Texas goes deep in the playoffs, I don't see them dealing him at all, being honest. Despite all the drama, he's still a team leader and their most productive player. You don't deal those kind of players and not get something back. Well, unless you're the Indians.



The only reason I see them trading him is because offense isnt their problem that is where their depth is at, They need money to resign CJ Wilson, or to give to another high quality SP that they Aquire via trade in order to extend them.

Plus there are whispers they will make a huge play for Pujols or Fielder if they cant get any quality Starting Pitching.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:36 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:Plus there are whispers they will make a huge play for Pujols or Fielder if they cant get any quality Starting Pitching.


Good. Then go get me Mike Napoli or Mitch Moreland on the rebound. Stat.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:46 pm

peeker643 wrote:
Dnthateonthepronk wrote:Plus there are whispers they will make a huge play for Pujols or Fielder if they cant get any quality Starting Pitching.


Good. Then go get me Mike Napoli or Mitch Moreland on the rebound. Stat.


I would not be opposed to Napoli
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:58 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
Dnthateonthepronk wrote:Plus there are whispers they will make a huge play for Pujols or Fielder if they cant get any quality Starting Pitching.


Good. Then go get me Mike Napoli or Mitch Moreland on the rebound. Stat.


I would not be opposed to Napoli


I'd not be opposed to either of them. I'd be fine plugging Moreland in at 1b for 5 years.
Dude's young, can also play RF, on his way up offensively. And he's cheap right now. If he was a righthanded hitter I'd be even higher on him. But he'd cost you C Perez plus some in all likelihood. Then TX could put Feliz back in the rotation where they damn near put him this season and Perez closes.

And Moreland has none of those pesky home/road splits. ;-) ;) :wink:

Napoli is soon to be 32 and is arb eligible after the season. Having a huge year though.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:10 am

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
WiscTribeFan wrote:
Dnthateonthepronk wrote:No you dont have it straight.



Sorry after I looked at this I realize it looked way more harsh than it sounded in my head


It's been another long season for everyone, no offense taken. I've got thick skin.

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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:35 am

How about Aramis Ramirez?


Maybe we could convince him to try and learn to play first.......Hey it worked in Moneyball.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby Cleveland Matt » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:37 am

I think in a realistic world the Indians could make a run at a couple FA. Josh Willingham, Michael Cuddyer, and Ryan Ludwick are the couple guys I think the Indians could go after. Carlos Pena is another decent bat to put in the middle of the lineup that would help with the power even tho he does have a high strikeout rate.

As far as the pitching I would not mind if they made an offer to Edwin Jackson as the #3 starter would really set the rotation. Rich Haden is another guy I would not mind the Indians taking a chance on he could be a solid 5th starter.

The White Sox are ready to start trading some of there players as well with a new coach in town. How awesome would Carlos Quentin look in the middle of this lineup. Hafner is really hurting this team from the standpoint that they can not make any moves because he is weighting them down.

Also I think they should pickup Carmona's option and decline Sizemore and hope they can get Sizemore back for less on a incentive based contract.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby Bigfist » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:40 am

Cleveland Matt wrote:I think in a realistic world the Indians could make a run at a couple FA. Josh Willingham, Michael Cuddyer, and Ryan Ludwick are the couple guys I think the Indians could go after. Carlos Pena is another decent bat to put in the middle of the lineup that would help with the power even tho he does have a high strikeout rate.

As far as the pitching I would not mind if they made an offer to Edwin Jackson as the #3 starter would really set the rotation. Rich Haden is another guy I would not mind the Indians taking a chance on he could be a solid 5th starter.

The White Sox are ready to start trading some of there players as well with a new coach in town. How awesome would Carlos Quentin look in the middle of this lineup. Hafner is really hurting this team from the standpoint that they can not make any moves because he is weighting them down.

Also I think they should pickup Carmona's option and decline Sizemore and hope they can get Sizemore back for less on a incentive based contract.


Gosh, how many teams has Jackson been on already? Off the top of my head...Detroit, TB, Arizona, St. Louis, White Sox. I might be forgetting one or two. When a guy is on a new team literally every year, that is a real red flag for me.

And please, we need to stop with the Rich Harden stuff. There is nothing "solid" about this guy and there hasn't been for many years. This team does not need another guy who spends more time on the DL than he does on the active roster.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby Cleveland Matt » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:44 am

I don't really want Rich Harden on this team but he is the type of player the Indians like to go after. A cheap guy how has little upside but is just good enough to have a spot on this team.

Sure Jackson has been on a number of teams who hasn't anymore in the MLB it is just part of the business. All I am saying by looking at how is available in FA this year. I think he is the best of the pitchers the Indians could have a shot at signing. He can't be any worst then Carmona.

Ublado
Masterson
Tomlin/Jackson
Jackson/Tomlin
Carmona

I think that could be a solid rotation if we could get a bat for the middle of this lineup to help score some runs.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby swerb » Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:55 pm

Matt, good opening five posts. Welcome to the forums. Post more often.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:01 pm

I think the deal with Jackson is that every team thinks they've sold high with him, namely due to his rough first couple of years. They all figure he's due for that regression, so they get what they can for him and move him before that happens. At this point, though, it hasn't happened.

That said, he's not going to be cheap on the market next year.

Let's go get CC. Maybe we can finally get that home-town discount!

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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby Cleveland Matt » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:37 pm

Swerb thanks for the kind words.

As far as Jackson goes him pitching for a team that made the world series and could even win the thing is yes going to probably drive his price up more then the Indians will spend. But they shoudl at least make an offer for him but at the same time the Cards gave up Rasmus for him so I can't see them letting him get away so easily.

The Indians do have a 2 year window I agree from most of the above posts I read. Choo, Ublado, Hafner, Masterson, Carmona, Sizmore all could be gone within the next two years. The time to win is now, I honestly believe if Kipnis did not get hurt when he did the Indians would have been in the fight longer towards the end of the year. He really made a huge impact on this team in the 2 hole and on defense and with Chisenhall looking like he was getting more comfortable in his last 100 AB's those two guys coudl give up a big boost for the whole season next year.
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Re: The Case for a Rebuild

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:35 am

Drew Storen, another young closer, has a K/9 number close to 9, and a K/BB of 3.5. Those are numbers you'd like to see in your closer.


On a side note, i'm almost as excited for Nationals baseball in 2012 than I am for the Tribe. Good young rotation, some fabulous middle of the lineup bats in Zimmerman and Morse (who hopefully doesn't regress too much) and the hope of a small regression to the norm for Werth. Could win 90 games and challenge for a wild card, depending on how the Braves and Phillies rebound. Just like Cleveland, you can get to the stadium easily and get tickets on the cheap, and decent beer scene around the area.

One of the best situations to move to a new city and soak up....Light years from living in beantown.
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