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It was one helluva ride

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It was one helluva ride

Unread postby bookelly » Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:17 am

Paulie C has hammered the coffin nail (justifiably so) on the '11 Indians. But man...that was fun.

Go Tribe!
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby tecs » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:54 am

bookelly wrote:Paulie C has hammered the coffin nail (justifiably so) on the '11 Indians. But man...that was fun.

Go Tribe!


It's probably the most disappointing end to a season since '94, that also happened to be the most encouraging season as well.

The only thing stopping this team from being a contender next year is the fragility of some of it's key components and whether or not dolan is willing to increase the payroll next year.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:01 am

I like the pitching it only needs some tinkering (i.e. no Chad Durbins and a nice veteran starter to put in the rotation.)

what we need are bats. The wooden kind not the mammals.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby rigs » Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:38 am

I am optimistic about a really big off season. I think you will see several higher profile guys brought in. This means not only through trades, but via free agency as well. Yes, this means overbidding. The franchise has put itself in a position to contend right now with the Ubaldo deal. Adding a Derrek Lee isn't going to cut it.
Payroll is dirt cheap, especially after passing on Sizemore's option.

Right now, even though the season was more than we hoped- the Indians are "maybe" a .500 team. They have to make some huge moves to justify the risk they took. The good news is that I think they know that, and will step to the plate.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby swerb » Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:47 am

rigs wrote:I am optimistic about a really big off season. I think you will see several higher profile guys brought in. This means not only through trades, but via free agency as well. Yes, this means overbidding. The franchise has put itself in a position to contend right now with the Ubaldo deal. Adding a Derrek Lee isn't going to cut it.
Payroll is dirt cheap, especially after passing on Sizemore's option.

Right now, even though the season was more than we hoped- the Indians are "maybe" a .500 team. They have to make some huge moves to justify the risk they took. The good news is that I think they know that, and will step to the plate.

I agree the Indians have painted them into a "must spend to contend" corner for '12 and '13.

I just don't see Cuddyer, Berkman, Kubel et al coming here. I think the Dolans will be willing to spend for a guy like that, but that it would take outbidding the rest of the league to get em. Outside of Pujols and Prince, not a lot of legit middle of the order FA bats gonna be out there. Hope I'm wrong.

I think you're gonna see a few trades this off-season. Maybe one or two of their back of the bullpen guys. Fired their young pitcher bullets on Ubaldo. Guys like Pestano, Perez, Perez, Sipp, Smith are what they have of value. And it takes value to get value. And roll the dice that the next tier of Judy, Chen, etc can fill the gaps.

Gonna be a very interesting off-season. They gotta figure our 1B, LF/CF and 3B. I'm all for the Hannahan/Chiz platoon at 3B again if they can upgrade the other two spots.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:30 am

If Prince is available for 5 years $100M (Yankees and Red Sox are already set at first base), they really should pull the trigger. It would never happen but they could decline Grady's option, trade Fausto for minor leaguers, and the payroll wouldn't have to go up too much (not to mention Pronk's $13M coming off after next year). Plus they could always flip him down the line. Again, it's a total pipe dream but I'd much rather do that than bring in a mediocre combo platter with that same money, which is probably what will happen.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:44 am

Kingpin74 wrote:If Prince is available for 5 years $100M, they really should pull the trigger. It would never happen but they could decline Grady's option, trade Fausto for minor leaguers, and the payroll wouldn't have to go up too much (not to mention Pronk's $13M coming off after next year). Plus they could always flip him down the line. Again, it's a total pipe dream but I'd much rather do that than bring in a mediocre combo platter with that same money (which is probably will happen).


You don't need to trade Fausto. All they'd have to do is decline his remaining options if they really wanted to be rid of salary. I think they could end up excersizing both options, actually.

That said, the really interesting part of this off season is going Pujols and Fielder. As of right now, there isn't a huge, huge market for these guys, as strange as that sounds. Here was a really interesting analysis done over at MLB.com

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/08/w ... elder.html

Only a few teams can afford a $20-30M/year package, and most of those teams do not seem to be great fits for either of these guys. It would not shock me to see them both end up right where they are. If Fielder can lead the Brewers deep into the playoffs, he might find it attractive to stay along for the ride, being that they have a pretty young nucleus of talent. I just don't think they can give him the $20M he wants. Not many teams can.

The notion that we have to try to contend the next two years is spot on. Dealing White and Pomeranz for Jimenez pretty much pushed up that time-table to now. If we end up .500 next year, we pretty much screwed the pooch.

If it isn't an interesting off-season for us, something's wrong.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:47 am

Well, when the overriding sentiment heading into the system was that Grady Sizemore would be traded in July as the latest move to shed payroll by getting rid of good players, this season wasn't so bad.

I enjoyed watching the games. It was fairly clear heading into August that the Tigers were the better team, but the Tribe gave it a great effort. Even though they had trouble scoring, for the most part they were never out of games. That made it worth watching til the end of every game. After basically bowing out of the season by the middle of May the last three seasons, it made me remember why I love the daily highs and lows baseball brings.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby Jumbo » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:23 pm

That was about as good as a .500 season can be. Excitement at the beginning, but the key hits and late inning surprise just couldn't outlast a fundamentally flawed lineup. Even as things stabilized a bit in recent weeks, they eventually got subsumed by injuries and a lack of position player depth.

Takeaways:

1. The Bullpen Mafia was outstanding. As a unit, the Perezes, Smith, Sipp, and Pestano pitched 290 innings with an ERA of 2.33. The big issue for the offseasion is whether the FO thinks that Most Inconsistent Part of a Baseball Team(TM) can be projected to remain solid with the additions of Hagadone et al...and, if so, whether the Tribe can deal one of those guys to shore up the offense.

2. Carlos Santana's batting average wasn't good and he needs to learn a lot about leadership and defense, but he sure can hit the baseball hard. And watch pitches go by without swinging.

3. Ubaldo didn't get it done. He needs to get it done in a full season. Ubaldo and Masterson need to be a solid 1-2 next season with Fausto gone(?) and Carrasco out. Tomlin can be a fine #3, but he won't be much more than that.

4. Chiz and Kip will be fine.

5. LaPorta won't.

6. After this offseason and the dropping of Fausto and Grady's contract, AsCab and Pronk will be the last links to 2007, right?

7. ...which, according to Tony's chart, means that the Tribe has a grand total of *two* contracts guaranteed next year, $13.0M to Pronk and $4.2M to Ubaldo. Add in wildass guess arbitration dollars to Ascab ($6M), Choo ($6M), Hannahan ($1M), Masterson ($4M), C. Perez ($3M), R. Perez ($3M) and Smith ($1.5M) and you're looking at a payroll just over $40M. If they wanted to, the money should be there to add payroll in the neighborhood of $10M-$15M. Since they should (knock on wood) have enough bullpen arms at both the major league and high minors levels, they shouldn't need to fritter that away on finding vets in the bullpen.

So:
(1) Trade C. Perez for Bat #1 (CF/LF), giving an OF of Brantley/Bat #1/Choo
(2) Sign Bat #2 (1B) for $10M, an infield of Bat #2/Kip/AsCab/Chiz with Hannahan
(3) Sign a vet SP to replace Carrasco for $5M, for a rotation of Ubaldo/Masterson/Tomlin/Vet SP/Talbot-Gomez-Huff. Or, if you're sold on 2 out of those last 3, then forgo the Vet SP and go all-in on offense.
(4) Pray for health. And sobriety.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby Jumbo » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:29 pm

Something I didn't notice before...although I haven't looked at arbitration rules recently, Fausto doesn't have enough service time to be a free agent. It appears that, therefore, the Indians could theoretically decline his $7M club option and retain control of him through arbitration. That wouldn't actually save them significant money, since he wouldn't see his salary actually decline from 2011's $6.1M through the arbitration process...but it might give the Indians a little bit of time for them to shop around and see if he has any trade value even after declining his option.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby motherscratcher » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:46 pm

tecs wrote:
bookelly wrote:Paulie C has hammered the coffin nail (justifiably so) on the '11 Indians. But man...that was fun.

Go Tribe!


It's probably the most disappointing end to a season since '94, that also happened to be the most encouraging season as well.

The only thing stopping this team from being a contender next year is the fragility of some of it's key components and whether or not dolan is willing to increase the payroll next year.


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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby Am I Here Again? » Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:57 pm

Yup. Mr. Wonderful isn't too big on pro sports but even HE was listening and even HE was remembering plays and players. Other than my own cheering that's all the verification I need. (inlove)<As much for the Tribe as for my hubby. ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby rigs » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:45 pm

First off, you absolutely don't let Carmona go. You are thin now without White and Pomeranz, and he is very affordable, year by year, for three more years.

While I agree trading a back end guy along with say a prospect, will that really bring in a sold right handed bat? I hope so, but I am not so sure.

At least one substantial piece will most likely come via free agency.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:02 pm

They're going to have to spend money this offseason and look at trading some of their lower level prospect guys for some veteran players. I wouldn't trade anybody in the bullpen except one of the lefties and sign a bargain bin free agent lefty late in the offseason. I don't like either of our lefties going forward. They're too inconsistent.

I wouldn't trade Chris Perez either. Remember what happened to a veteran guy like Rafael Betancourt in 2008 after how much he was used. Smith and Pestano have been used a ton. There could be some hangover there. Bullpens are volatile. There's no guarantee that ours is good next year. That's about the only close-to-guaranteed strength of the team. That can't change.

Find veteran presences. This team lacks them. Both in the rotation and in the lineup. They need a left handed starter, preferably a veteran.


Lots of great memories this year. But, on September 29, they don't mean shit. It's time to build for next season.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby jerryroche » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:24 pm

At least TWO dependable right-handed bats between Oct. 1 and next March. This lineup is so unbalanced, I'm surprised it hasn't completely keeled over to the left.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby rigs » Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:45 pm

You are correct, you need two. One would have been Delmon Young.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby Prosecutor » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:29 pm

I don't think the Tribe really has much trading ammunition. Relief pitchers aren't worth much on the open market. Their best players are Choo, Asdrubal, and Masterson. Choo is coming off a very bad year both on and off the field so his value is down. Asdrubal is the team MVP and we have no replacement until possibly Lindor in four years or so. Masterson is emerging as one of the top ten starters in the AL and they would be insane to trade him.

The top farm prospects have already been traded. Most of our best prospects now are relief pitchers.

I really don't think the Tribe is going to make much of a splash this off-season. They'll finish around .500 this year. The plan will be for Grady, Choo, Pronk and Brantley to stay mostly healthy next year with Kipnis and Chiz emerging as solid everyday players and another stellar year from the bullpen. Maybe they'll take a flyer on another reclamation project like Nick Johnson, but I definitely don't see a Prince Fielder type move, not after what happened with the Hafner contract.

We might see another Orlando Cabrera type signing or a minor trade, but we don't have the firepower to swing a major deal unless they're willing to move Masterson or Asdrubal, which they'd be nuts to do. And they won't shell out $20 million per year on a bat.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby Bigfist » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:07 pm

I sort of agree with Prosecutor. Our recent forays into big named free agents has not worked out too well (Kerry Wood), so I really can't see Dolan taking that approach.

With so little position depth in the minors, it is a must that Grady has his option picked up. Who in the minors can possibly replace him? Yeah, he is never going to be the player we thought he would, but still is better than anything that is in AAA or AA. I see a Kearns type signing. I would love to see Fukudome return, but doubt that will happen.

I think Fausto must have his option picked up and hope that he is the 2007 and 2010 Fausto. Masterson and a questionable Ubaldo will not get it done. Tomlin...well, I like him, but he is a #4 or 5, along with Huff and Gomez.

All in all, too many "ifs" on the present roster for me to get too excited. I hope I am proven wrong, but I think this division will be much better next year...especially Detroit and KC (who, with any pitching at all, should be VERY good).
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby 1Perry » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:25 pm

The plan will be for Grady, Choo, Pronk and Brantley to stay mostly healthy next year with Kipnis and Chiz emerging as solid everyday players and another stellar year from the bullpen.


As I've said, that's a scary plan. Choo, yes, Brantley, he should, the other two, no. I'm good with the belief Chiz and Kipnis can be a bigger plus next year.

As you note, they are basically a .500 team. Normally that would be dissapointing. It was a pretty fun year for .500. I never thought I'd say that.

I do not think they spend $20 million on anyone either. I have more faith that Fausto and Ubaldo can have better years next year which will make a difference than the idea that Pronk and Sizemore can have productive seasons.

Maybe sign Thome for one last year and try to get a CF for Santana.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby Bigfist » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:49 pm

But if you get rid of Santana, who plays 1B? Mills? I think Laporta will be given one more shot, but his lack of improvement this year makes me think it is unlikely he will be more than what we have already seen.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby rigs » Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:07 pm

Well, you guys are either wrong, or we are screwed. Luckily, I believe it is the former. Like Rich concurred, the entire Ubaldo thing makes them "all in" now. If it takes overpaying, so be it.

If they are waiting for guys to rebound, they won't contend. This team right now is probably a 75 win team. The 30-15 start was a mirage.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby rigs » Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:09 pm

You guys also have to take into account that there are a lot of bad contracts out there that teams want to move. We supposedly can absorb any contract. Wandy Rodriguez? Jason Bay? etc
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:16 pm

If they are serious about contending next year, then they sign Cuddyer or at least try to and pencil him in as the starter at 1b in 2012.


Let LaPorta sit in the minors since he has that option left. Then Laporta comes up late in 2012 depending on circumstances. This helps to field the most competitive team possible in 2012 and prevents us from having to get rid of LaPorta right away.

If Laporta pans out then Cuddyer moves to the outfield and takes over for an injured/traded/declined option Grady Sizemore in 2013.

If LaPorta doesnt pan out and we have a (hopefully) healthy Sizemore in the OF and Cuddyer at 1st in 2013.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:23 pm

The ride was fun, if you like a short burst of excitement followed by a long period of face palming horribleness.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:56 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:The ride was fun, if you like a short burst of excitement followed by a long period of face palming horribleness.



So it's like sex with me.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby 1Perry » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:20 pm

Bigfist wrote:But if you get rid of Santana, who plays 1B? Mills? I think Laporta will be given one more shot, but his lack of improvement this year makes me think it is unlikely he will be more than what we have already seen.


Yeah........I'm not sure Santana will be more than we've seen either. I guess for as many positives this year, Santana has been a dissapointment.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby Prosecutor » Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:32 am

Cuddyer would help, but he's making $10.5 million this year and I don't think his agent is looking for him to take a pay cut. Of course if they dumped Grady it would save 8 or 9 million so that would pay for Cuddyer's contract. Brantley would move to center. I would be in favor of that trade-off, mainly because it would replace a left-handed bat with a right-hander and reduce the injury risk.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby Bigfist » Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:55 am

But there is no way one gets Cuddyer on a one year contract. The minimum will be three, and four more likely.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:26 am

I'm sorry, but if the Tribe holds pat and leans on the hopes and prayers that Fausto and Grady can have some semblance of productivity as the main driving force for us becoming better than our division-mates, then Antonetti was a fool for trading White and Pomeranz.

I was skeptical of the deal at first, but figured it was just emotional ties to a couple of good looking arms. Unfortunately, that feeling has yet to subside, and I really think Antonetti got swept up in the moment and felt the pressure to do something that Shapiro would have never done. No guts, no glory, I guess. I just think the team is more than just one player away from being a true playoff contender. Maybe I've been a fan too long to have that kind of hope anymore...

Dealing those guys means the Tribe's playoff clock started this July and ends 2 years from now when they are on the verge of losing guys like Choo, Jimenez and A-Cab.

If they stand pat, the Tribe will not be a playoff caliber team next year. They'll need to greatly improve this team in order to get to the next level. How they do that remains to be seen, but they cannot stand pat and hope multiple players have career rebounding years, or that very young players like Chiz and Kipnis produce like veterans. If Masterson regresses at all, we are in deep doo-doo.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby Bigfist » Thu Sep 08, 2011 1:04 pm

Wisc Tribe Fan said it as well as can be said. But my concern is that the thinking WILL be for Grady, etc to rebound. I mean..no one really expects us to go out and get Pujols, Fielder, etc., do they? Heck, we need UBALDO to rebound. As I said in another post, if KC gets any pitching at all, they will leapfrog us next year.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:34 pm

Bigfist wrote:Wisc Tribe Fan said it as well as can be said. But my concern is that the thinking WILL be for Grady, etc to rebound. I mean..no one really expects us to go out and get Pujols, Fielder, etc., do they? Heck, we need UBALDO to rebound. As I said in another post, if KC gets any pitching at all, they will leapfrog us next year.


The only way we can potentially better quickly would be to continue to deal some of our young talent, which means either Kipnis or Chisenhall and potentially Chris Perez for impact major league players. Those three have the most value right now. In order to deal Rage, though, they'd have to be convinced that someone like Pestano could step into the closer's role and succeed, or that a veteran closer is out there they could pick up on a one or two year deal. I'm not sure that is the case.

The other player that could potentially bring back a fairly large payday *right now* would be A-Cab. If he could get two established players, say a 1B and corner OF for a premier SS, maybe they think on it. As it was said, relief pitchers won't bring us much back in return, and our upper minors are very thin in terms of position players. He can't be passive in the off-season. No way, not now. He can't half-ass it at this point, and if they don't win big the next two years, he's probably fired. He is going to have to be creative in order to get this team to a point where they can compete next year. All options have to be available and considered, even ones that we might not like on the surface, like thinking about A-Cab's value.

If he had real stones, he'd cut ties with Sizemore and Carmona and use that money elsewhere. I'd be floored if he non-tendered either of them, though.

Of course, another way to alleviate some of the time-frame pressure, would be to lock up Choo and A-Cab for the next 4-5 years, but that's going to take some doing.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby Bigfist » Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:53 pm

Well, I can't see Carmona or Grady let go, not without something ready to replace them. As bad as both have been, there really is no ready replacement for either in AAA or AA. Especially now with Carrasco gone for 2012, and Pomeranz, White, and Gardner traded, all depth is gone. We are looking at guys like McAllister, Gomez, Huff, Barnes, and Kluber to provide depth...a far cry from what we had at the beginning of 2011. Of course, a Millwood type signing is possible, and while off the top of my head, I am not sure of who among starting pitchers will be an elite free agent, I can't see the Indians going in that direction.

The same holds for Sizemore. I have no idea of who in the minors could replace him..Fedroff? He really doesn't look much better than Zeke to me. So, barring a trade or big signing, I expect them to bring back Grady. Cuddyer would fit perfectly. I would hope they could get creative with Fukudome, for depth, but I bet he signs elsewhere.

As you mention, our best trading chips are the relievers, ACab., Choo, and Santana. I suppose they could part ways with Chisehall and give the job to Hanahan (if they can re-sign him), but who knows what he would bring back, because he really hasn't shown much yet. No one else is going to bring anything of note.

I wouldn't want to be in Antonetti's shoes at this point, because he really has set the team's sights on the next two years. Hopefully, he has already planned for what is happening now.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:14 pm

Bigfist wrote:Well, I can't see Carmona or Grady let go, not without something ready to replace them.


I agree, but I hope to hell that the FO isn't expecting them to all of a sudden turn the last few seasons around and become driving forces for this team.

I originally had a blurb in my post about Carrasco's injury really hurting us next year in terms of depth. You hit the nail on the head on that one. If they find out he needed TJ surgery before the Colorado deal, I wonder if they still pull that trigger?

Huff pitching himself back into the picture eases that a bit, but he's still a long way from proving that he's a guy that's going to be effective throughout the course of a season. We're banking on an awful lot of progression next year, and it's troubling given that we've sold the farm.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby bac5665 » Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:38 pm

I radical thought, and bear with me.

Assuming that Fielder or Pujols would come here, which I grant is a stretch, the argument against signing them is that it would cripple us after say two years and prevent us from being able to anything.

Ok. But if WiscTribeFan and others are correct and we have to have real FA talent next year to compete, it seems to be that we're damned if we don't sign Fielder or Pujols. So if we're screwed anyway, why not go all in, get one of them and at least win a World Series before becoming doomed for another decade anyway?

Or are there FAs out there that can get it done without mortgaging the team? Cause if there aren't, then lets mortgage the team and at least go for it, instead of half-assing it for 2 years and then rebuilding again.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby jerryroche » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:09 pm

Extemely disappointed with the development of the young'uns on offense. Head, Phelps, Chisenhall, LaPorta and Carrera either need more time to develop, or they're eternal basket cases. Santana's BA and K stats are dismal, given the FO's high expectations. On the bright side, Kipnis and Donald showed some offensive spark, but they really haven't played enough to make any solid judgments about them -- and Kipnis needs to field about 20,000 ground balls over the winter.

Unless the tightwads at the top open their wallets over the winter (not likely), this team has entirely too many holes in the everyday lineup to contend next season, even with a pretty decent pitching corps. Oh, I suppose we could always hold out hope that Hafner and Sizemore can play well enough to actually earn their paychecks next season. (I really do want to be optimistic, but this three-month flameout has taken quite a bit of the wind out of my sails.)
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby bookelly » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:56 am

bac5665 wrote:I radical thought, and bear with me.

Assuming that Fielder or Pujols would come here, which I grant is a stretch, the argument against signing them is that it would cripple us after say two years and prevent us from being able to anything.

Ok. But if WiscTribeFan and others are correct and we have to have real FA talent next year to compete, it seems to be that we're damned if we don't sign Fielder or Pujols. So if we're screwed anyway, why not go all in, get one of them and at least win a World Series before becoming doomed for another decade anyway?

Or are there FAs out there that can get it done without mortgaging the team? Cause if there aren't, then lets mortgage the team and at least go for it, instead of half-assing it for 2 years and then rebuilding again.


^^ This.

Who the hell else are we gonna pay? Shelling out big $$ for a championship caliber 1b still doesn't even get us close to MLB average salary. Even if we start signing core guys like Droobs, Masterson, Choo (don't laugh, it's been a pretty horrible year for Choo) C. Perez. Those contracts plus Grady and Pronk total what, $35- 45 million? You could give out a $35 mil per year contract and still be $20 million under League average salary.

And what is with this "2-3 year window" bs? Last I checked almost everyone on this team is under control for 4, 5 or even 6 years. That's a ton of time to fill gaps with drafts. A major, long-term FA signing would only extend that window, not shorten it.

With LeBron and maybe the entire NBA gone for a while, this is a ripe opportunity for the Indians to really grow the franchise. A Mega-star at 1b would surly increase the offering price if as rumored, Dolan is looking to sell.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby Bigfist » Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:57 am

The 2 year window, through 2013, exists because that is when Jimenez, Choo, and ACab would all become free agents. Check our minor league system out..there is really no one that stands out, all the way down to Kinston. So, if those three perform like All Stars, there is little chance they will be here in 2014, and there are no ready replacements below. Hence the window of two years.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby bookelly » Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:46 am

Bigfist wrote:The 2 year window, through 2013, exists because that is when Jimenez, Choo, and ACab would all become free agents. Check our minor league system out..there is really no one that stands out, all the way down to Kinston. So, if those three perform like All Stars, there is little chance they will be here in 2014, and there are no ready replacements below. Hence the window of two years.


In my post I included new deals for all these guys and still be under the MLB average salary with a big ticket guy.

They are not mutually exclusive.

We actually kinda have a history of locking up arby guys to long term contracts dating back to Sandy Jr. in '91.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:31 am

bookelly wrote:
Bigfist wrote:The 2 year window, through 2013, exists because that is when Jimenez, Choo, and ACab would all become free agents. Check our minor league system out..there is really no one that stands out, all the way down to Kinston. So, if those three perform like All Stars, there is little chance they will be here in 2014, and there are no ready replacements below. Hence the window of two years.


In my post I included new deals for all these guys and still be under the MLB average salary with a big ticket guy.

They are not mutually exclusive.

We actually kinda have a history of locking up arby guys to long term contracts dating back to Sandy Jr. in '91.


Yes. The last two players we did that with were Carmona and Sizemore. The last elite player we signed a long term contract extension before he hit the market was Hafner. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. We've struck out more than we've succeeded lately.

'91 was long time ago, and back then it was a very novel approach. Agents are now less inclined to allow their clients, especially the elite talent, to give up the chance to hit the open market. Arby years, sure, but a guy like Boras isn't going to give up FA years on the cheap, if at all.

Choo is represented by Boras, which means he probably won't be extending into his FA years. I could see A-Cab doing it, maybe, but after this year his price has gone way, way up to buy out some of his FA years. We probably won't think about extending Jimenez until next year when we see if he's truly the ace we thought we acquired. If he is, it could take Cliff Lee type money to get that done. Since we were unwilling to give Cliff Lee and CC that kind of money, I don't see us doing it here, either.

Bottom line is that when Antonetti decided to deal two young, potential front-line SP, he wasn't thinking about 2014 and beyond necessarily. If he were, he'd have kept them. Not trying to compete hard the next two years, given the contract situation we are looking at, makes no sense. Our top minor league talent is very, very young, and won't be expected to contribute for several years. There isn't much front line SP talent in the minors right now.

This off-season is going to be an interesting one.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:59 pm

Manny Acta was quoted today as saying in regards to first base: "I think that's something that we're going to have to address during the offseason."

Good to hear they acknowledge 1st base is a major offensive void in the system, and it's pretty clear it's a priority to upgrade in some fashion.

Where things get a little murkier is the next quote: "First and third base are positions where we should be looking into improving for next year, whether that's within or from the outside."

Not quite sure what he's saying about third base there. Obviously, no one is getting a Silver Slugger, but Chiz has a lot of upside and Hannahan has (until getting hurt lately) not been shabby lately, either, and can, if nothing else, keep the position warm while Chiz continues to develop if he needs more seasoning. Between those guys, third base doesn't look like a big worry to me going into next year, at least not as much as the gaping holes at first and at least one outfield spot.

If he's saying for Chiz and Hannahan to take it to the next level next year, that makes sense. But it's kind of a cryptic comment to me. We don't have that many trade chips left, and using what we do have to address a position that isn't a pressing need wouldn't help the bigger issues (first base and outfield).

I agree, though...it will definitely be an interesting offseason. Gotta do something big. Band aid signings aint gonna cut it.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby bookelly » Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:32 am

Adverb Harry wrote:Manny Acta was quoted today as saying in regards to first base: "I think that's something that we're going to have to address during the offseason."

Good to hear they acknowledge 1st base is a major offensive void in the system, and it's pretty clear it's a priority to upgrade in some fashion.

Where things get a little murkier is the next quote: "First and third base are positions where we should be looking into improving for next year, whether that's within or from the outside."

Not quite sure what he's saying about third base there. Obviously, no one is getting a Silver Slugger, but Chiz has a lot of upside and Hannahan has (until getting hurt lately) not been shabby lately, either, and can, if nothing else, keep the position warm while Chiz continues to develop if he needs more seasoning. Between those guys, third base doesn't look like a big worry to me going into next year, at least not as much as the gaping holes at first and at least one outfield spot.

If he's saying for Chiz and Hannahan to take it to the next level next year, that makes sense. But it's kind of a cryptic comment to me. We don't have that many trade chips left, and using what we do have to address a position that isn't a pressing need wouldn't help the bigger issues (first base and outfield).

I agree, though...it will definitely be an interesting offseason. Gotta do something big. Band aid signings aint gonna cut it.


Well, a certain Cardinal FA I know of plays both 1b and 3b... :hide:
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:48 am

Well then, that's probably who he was alluding to. ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby daddywags » Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:28 am

I can see the need at 1B, but 3B? That sort of talk almost guarantees that Acta, at least, expects Grady to be back, which I don't like. I would cut ties with Sizemore and let Brantley play CF. Grady can't be counted on and he's too expensive anyway. I'd suggest looking to two Oakland FAs to be: Josh Willingham and Rich Harden. Harden has the injury bug, which might hold his price down just enough. I'd put Willingham in LF and Harden behind Masterson/Jimenez in the rotation. I see no way we just release Carmona - he's still a decent MOR pitcher who gives you solid innings (on the whole) and his contract is in line with his value, IMhO. If we're tired of working with him, he will have value on the trade market.

I think a rotation of Jimenez, Masterson, Harden, Carmona, and Tomlin, with Huff, Gomez and the rest waiting in the wings, is pretty darn solid. Willingham doesn't solve all of our offensive problems, but he'd help. I would also be willing to move one or two relievers, especially a lefty but including Chris Perez if the price is right, for another solid bat - preferably right-handed, but left-handed would do if it's a legit upgrade.
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Re: It was one helluva ride

Unread postby Bigfist » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:45 am

Has Harden ever had an injury free year? Ever? Seems to me that we don't need another guy who is all too used to going on the DL.
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