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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby statmasta » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:40 pm

peeker643 wrote:Regardless of Marson being here or not, the Tribe pitchers would pick 45 guys off your list to throw to if given the choice. Maybe more.

I'd love to know how you know this.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:41 pm

Statmasta, you are totally ignoring the biggest part of all this - the biggest part of catching.

I'll go back to the opening line of my original post. Ask EVERY one of the Tribe pitchers who they would rather have receiving thier pitches. And this is not to make a Santana/Marson argument. It's to emphasize the issues he's had - a few of the publically with some guys on the staff.

Calling the game, getting on the same page with the staff - that's the shit that matters back there. Blocking pitches and shit like that pales in comparison.

And if you have been watching the team all year and don't see or understand this I'm wasting my time - let alone if you've been watching the team all year and are going to suggest he's doing a decent job back there.

And Christ, of course I understand the value of having a plus hitter back there. And that's to my point - every GD guy on God's green earth knows this - including everyone in baseball - yet who ends up behind the plate for these teams - future managers, or big hitters?

Take a big hitter out of the line-up, you've got a problem. Put a guy behind the plate that can't call a game, and the pitchers don't care for, and you've got a disaster.

For the thousandth time - a big hitter at that position will NEVER make up for certain deficiencies defensively at that position - need proof of this statements truth, I got it - it's called the last hundred years or so of the game.

I ain't tellin' anyone anything new, except you, I suppose.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby statmasta » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:44 pm

leadpipe wrote:Statmasta, you are totally ignoring the biggest part of all this - the biggest part of catching.

I'll go back to the opening line of my original post. Ask EVERY one of the Tribe pitchers who they would rather have receiving thier pitches. And this is not to make a Santana/Marson argument. It's to emphasize the issues he's had - a few of the publically with some guys on the staff.

Calling the game, getting on the same page with the staff - that's the shit that matters back there. Blocking pitches and shit like that pales in comparison.

And if you have been watching the team all year and don't see or understand this I'm wasting my time - let alone if you've been watching the team all year and are going to suggest he's doing a decent job back there.

And Christ, of course I understand the value of having a plus hitter back there. And that's to my point - every GD guy on God's green earth knows this - including everyone in baseball - yet who ends up behind the plate for these teams - future managers, or big hitters?

Take a big hitter out of the line-up, you've got a problem. Put a guy behind the plate that can't call a game, and the pitchers don't care for, and you've got a disaster.

For the thousandth time - a big hitter at that position will NEVER make up for certain deficiencies defensively at that position - need proof of this statements truth, I got it - it's called the last hundred years or so of the game.

I ain't tellin' anyone anything new, except you, I suppose.

Of course he has issues. Is he the only catcher in the majors with issues?

He's not a finished product. I've acknowledged his deficiencies. That's why we need to work with him and have patience. Those things he lacks are teachable.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:50 pm

statmasta wrote:
leadpipe wrote:Statmasta, you are totally ignoring the biggest part of all this - the biggest part of catching.

I'll go back to the opening line of my original post. Ask EVERY one of the Tribe pitchers who they would rather have receiving thier pitches. And this is not to make a Santana/Marson argument. It's to emphasize the issues he's had - a few of the publically with some guys on the staff.

Calling the game, getting on the same page with the staff - that's the shit that matters back there. Blocking pitches and shit like that pales in comparison.

And if you have been watching the team all year and don't see or understand this I'm wasting my time - let alone if you've been watching the team all year and are going to suggest he's doing a decent job back there.

And Christ, of course I understand the value of having a plus hitter back there. And that's to my point - every GD guy on God's green earth knows this - including everyone in baseball - yet who ends up behind the plate for these teams - future managers, or big hitters?

Take a big hitter out of the line-up, you've got a problem. Put a guy behind the plate that can't call a game, and the pitchers don't care for, and you've got a disaster.

For the thousandth time - a big hitter at that position will NEVER make up for certain deficiencies defensively at that position - need proof of this statements truth, I got it - it's called the last hundred years or so of the game.

I ain't tellin' anyone anything new, except you, I suppose.

Of course he has issues. Is he the only catcher in the majors with issues?

He's not a finished product. I've acknowledged his deficiencies. That's why we need to work with him and have patience. Those things he lacks are teachable.


I'll buy half way. The argument he needs more time AND can develop is fine.

But it's much conjecture that all of what he lacks is teachable. Calling a game, setting up hitters, naturally getting in sync with guys - getting in sync quickly based on what they have that day......much of that is gift, and much of it ought to have been developed climbing the ladder - cause that's not major league stuff, that's baseball stuff. Time teaches much of this, not a big league catching coach.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby statmasta » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:53 pm

leadpipe wrote:
statmasta wrote:
leadpipe wrote:Statmasta, you are totally ignoring the biggest part of all this - the biggest part of catching.

I'll go back to the opening line of my original post. Ask EVERY one of the Tribe pitchers who they would rather have receiving thier pitches. And this is not to make a Santana/Marson argument. It's to emphasize the issues he's had - a few of the publically with some guys on the staff.

Calling the game, getting on the same page with the staff - that's the shit that matters back there. Blocking pitches and shit like that pales in comparison.

And if you have been watching the team all year and don't see or understand this I'm wasting my time - let alone if you've been watching the team all year and are going to suggest he's doing a decent job back there.

And Christ, of course I understand the value of having a plus hitter back there. And that's to my point - every GD guy on God's green earth knows this - including everyone in baseball - yet who ends up behind the plate for these teams - future managers, or big hitters?

Take a big hitter out of the line-up, you've got a problem. Put a guy behind the plate that can't call a game, and the pitchers don't care for, and you've got a disaster.

For the thousandth time - a big hitter at that position will NEVER make up for certain deficiencies defensively at that position - need proof of this statements truth, I got it - it's called the last hundred years or so of the game.

I ain't tellin' anyone anything new, except you, I suppose.

Of course he has issues. Is he the only catcher in the majors with issues?

He's not a finished product. I've acknowledged his deficiencies. That's why we need to work with him and have patience. Those things he lacks are teachable.


I'll buy half way. The argument he needs more time AND can develop is fine.

But it's much conjecture that all of what he lacks is teachable. Calling a game, setting up hitters, naturally getting in sync with guys - getting in sync quickly based on what they have that day......much of that is gift, and much of it ought to have been developed climbing the ladder - cause that's not major league stuff, that's baseball stuff. Time teaches much of this, not a big league catching coach.

That's not something that's innate in high IQ baseball players. It's not like some high IQ shortstop can move to catcher and know how to do that. That's something you learn. I was a catcher when I played, I learned how to call a game and work with the pitcher. Victor Martinez learned it, too. He moved to catcher as a pro, so he had to learn how to catch. Santana was a third baseman just a few years ago. He has to learn. It CAN come. Will it? I don't know. But I do know it CAN. It is something you can learn. It's not a magic ability you're born with. That's why we can't bail on him. We can't give up on him. We have to keep him at catcher. If he does learn, we have perhaps the best catcher in the majors.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby statmasta » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:56 pm

leadpipe wrote:Time teaches much of this, not a big league catching coach.

I can go with this. I think that's true, time is more important. Like I said earlier, he is inexperienced. He just needs more reps. He won't get that at first base. Stick with him at catcher, he'll be ok. He'll keep learning the more he catches.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby pup » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:57 pm

Anyone hear LaPorta got sent down today?
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:57 pm

statmasta wrote:Of course he has issues. Is he the only catcher in the majors with issues?

He's not a finished product. I've acknowledged his deficiencies. That's why we need to work with him and have patience. Those things he lacks are teachable.


He's not the only one with issues and they do need to work with him. But forget about the other catchers for a second and look only at Santana in a vacuum. He's simply not an adequate defensive catcher today when you consider all requirements of the position. Not physically (mostly due to technique and effort) or mentally in terms of calling a game (maybe due to inexperience, possibly from lack of give-a-shit).

It doesn't matter if he's not as bad as Johnny Walkabout.

And we agree on his tools being there. The issue is whether he's willing to learn, grow, accept coaching and get better or if he's content to go with the Paul Konerko path.

I'd be fine with the Konerko path personally and his +bat may ultimately get him moved out of the C position anyway.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:01 pm

statmasta wrote:
leadpipe wrote:Time teaches much of this, not a big league catching coach.

I can go with this. I think that's true, time is more important. Like I said earlier, he is inexperienced. He just needs more reps. He won't get that at first base. Stick with him at catcher, he'll be ok. He'll keep learning the more he catches.


That's fine. Just not until the Indians have been eliminated or are basically dead. Let him hit and play 1B for now and build him back up behind the plate in the offseason and during the spring.

Then see what you have.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby statmasta » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:10 pm

peeker643 wrote:
statmasta wrote:Of course he has issues. Is he the only catcher in the majors with issues?

He's not a finished product. I've acknowledged his deficiencies. That's why we need to work with him and have patience. Those things he lacks are teachable.


He's not the only one with issues and they do need to work with him. But forget about the other catchers for a second and look only at Santana in a vacuum. He's simply not an adequate defensive catcher today when you consider all requirements of the position. Not physically (mostly due to technique and effort) or mentally in terms of calling a game (maybe due to inexperience, possibly from lack of give-a-shit).

It doesn't matter if he's not as bad as Johnny Walkabout.

And we agree on his tools being there. The issue is whether he's willing to learn, grow, accept coaching and get better or if he's content to go with the Paul Konerko path.

I'd be fine with the Konerko path personally and his +bat may ultimately get him moved out of the C position anyway.

As for the not being mentally adequate, I definitely believe it's entirely due to inexperience. I personally believe it's impossible to be a lazy catcher. You can be lazy on certain plays (like if you just try to pick a ball rather than smothering it), but overall, there's way too much work that catchers do. I don't think it's a position conducive to laziness.

As for whether or not he's willing to learn? I don't know. I have no idea. I doubt anybody here honestly knows, because as far as I know, nobody here personally knows Carlos Santana. Just because he displays a lackadaisical attitude on the field doesn't mean he's uncoachable, which is why I don't like those uncoachable comments. He may be, he may not be. I hope not.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby statmasta » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:12 pm

peeker643 wrote:
statmasta wrote:
leadpipe wrote:Time teaches much of this, not a big league catching coach.

I can go with this. I think that's true, time is more important. Like I said earlier, he is inexperienced. He just needs more reps. He won't get that at first base. Stick with him at catcher, he'll be ok. He'll keep learning the more he catches.


That's fine. Just not until the Indians have been eliminated or are basically dead. Let him hit and play 1B for now and build him back up behind the plate in the offseason and during the spring.

Then see what you have.

I guess I'd be ok with that if he's the everyday catcher from opening day 2012. A catcher can't learn how to call a game in practice. I think he needs real games.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:18 pm

statmasta wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
statmasta wrote:
leadpipe wrote:Time teaches much of this, not a big league catching coach.

I can go with this. I think that's true, time is more important. Like I said earlier, he is inexperienced. He just needs more reps. He won't get that at first base. Stick with him at catcher, he'll be ok. He'll keep learning the more he catches.


That's fine. Just not until the Indians have been eliminated or are basically dead. Let him hit and play 1B for now and build him back up behind the plate in the offseason and during the spring.

Then see what you have.

I guess I'd be ok with that if he's the everyday catcher from opening day 2012. A catcher can't learn how to call a game in practice. I think he needs real games.


He does need real games but he may also need more time with this staff that you can't afford to experiment with til they're eliminated. If he's inexperienced then he's less likely to take control and walk a pitcher through a game. And this season, with all the new faces and guys coming and going, Marson is clearly the best choice to do that because he has the makeup, the experience and the ability today to do it.

Marson directs the game out there. Santana right now just looks to the dugout for signs and let's the game play out in many ways.

Better team if Santana is a capable catcher for sure.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby Am I Here Again? » Wed Aug 31, 2011 2:42 am

pup wrote:Anyone hear LaPorta got sent down today?

Really? Who da thunk?

Back to the OT topic. ;-) ;) :wink: Marson has been a catcher his entire pro career (2004 to now). He hasn't been moved around the diamond like Santana. Santana started catching the majority of the time starting in 2008, exclusively catching starting in 2009 until he got moved to 1st base this season to try and eliminate some of his backstop blunders. And probably to save him from another injury like last year's. Seems like the guy has been tried at every position except center field and pitcher. Little wonder his skills aren't up to Marson's. Could it be because there is no position that is comfortable enough for him that he can become accomplished enough to be a good player? Maybe he never got good enough anywhere because they kept moving him and he never got enough experience anywhere? IMO they've been looking for a spot to put him so they could make use of his hitting prowess. So basically if he's a klutz at any fielding position maybe the only place for him is DH. And Pronk is here next year (option year 2013).
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby bookelly » Wed Aug 31, 2011 3:41 am

This is easy. Sign Puljos to play 1b, 3b, DH, and LF. Then you give guys like Marson some starts at C while Santana man's 1st and Albert moves to 3b or Lf (depending on the matchups of course.) Chiz then sits against LH'ers during day games after Tues but never on Sunday.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:40 am

statmasta wrote:For the most part he's already average to above average defensively. He just needs to learn some little things: staying down and smothering balls in the dirt rather than coming up, footwork, maybe a quicker release, receiving pitches more calmly.


Seems like with the amount of work you described, he's not an average - above average catcher. A majority fo these things are fundamental to the catching position. It's like telling me that Daniel Gibson is an above average point guard, he just needs to work on his dribbling, passing, court vision, and going to his left.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby Sol Solis » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:47 am

With all the talk about Santana not being able to handle a staff and all that... hasn't he caught Masterson all year? He doesn't get ANY credit for that? If Masterson hated to pitch to him then you'd think he'd be pitching worse than he has been.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:57 am

Sol Solis wrote:With all the talk about Santana not being able to handle a staff and all that... hasn't he caught Masterson all year? He doesn't get ANY credit for that? If Masterson hated to pitch to him then you'd think he'd be pitching worse than he has been.


The Masterson who threw 109 fastballs in 110 pitches in one start? Sure, we'll give Santana credit for that.
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