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LaPorta Optioned/Santana Discussion

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LaPorta Optioned/Santana Discussion

Unread postby statmasta » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:31 pm

to make room for Jeanmar Gomez

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby Am I Here Again? » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:19 pm

Image 'Bout time!!! Image

Thanks stat, you made my day. Image
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:24 pm

Until Th when the rosters expand. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. I'd be shocked if he stayed in C-Bus for very long.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby Am I Here Again? » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:37 pm

But if there are more men on the bench there are fewer opportunities for Matty to be put in to play. ;-) ;) :wink: Maybe. Depends on if Acta thinks more playing time will improve the quality of his work. Yeah, haven't we been there-done that?
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:53 pm

Am I Here Again? wrote:But if there are more men on the bench there are fewer opportunities for Matty to be put in to play. ;-) ;) :wink: Maybe. Depends on if Acta thinks more playing time will improve the quality of his work. Yeah, haven't we been there-done that?


Doesn't really help unless the Tribe is eliminated IMO. I mean so many others up and in the dugout. Had any of those guys been better than LaPorta then he'd have likely been optioned in favor of them prior to this time.

Just my thoughts. I'm fine with any lineup that's LaPorta-less personally. Rather see Hannahan there myself. He's hitting the ball well and against RHP you get him and Chisenhall in the lineup at the same time.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:58 pm

This is bullshit, Columbus should have the option to decline him.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:00 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:This is bullshit, Columbus should have the option to decline him.


No way. Dude is a very good AAA hitter. He loses all ability somewhere on 71N near Mansfield though. Can't blame him really. That area depresses me too.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:12 pm

I've written out and backspaced four or five posts already, but LaPorta is a player the Indians absolutely needed to hit with and they didn't.

Santana at 1B everyday. He might work almost exclusively at 1B all next spring because his days as a catcher look numbered.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby NH Tribe Fan » Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:34 pm

Yeah, more than anything I think this is a strong shot across the bow for LaPorta. I expect they bring in a low priced veteran or use Carlos to battle Matt at 1b next spring.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby statmasta » Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:39 pm

skatingtripods wrote:Santana at 1B everyday. He might work almost exclusively at 1B all next spring because his days as a catcher look numbered.

I don't see why that's the case. It's not like he doesn't have the ability. He's a very skilled athlete. He just needs to learn how to play the position better and more consistently. It's not a matter of he can't do it, just a matter of he isn't doing it ...yet.

Once he learns to stay down on balls on the dirt so they hit his chest protector, and gets better footwork when throwing on base stealers, he could be great. Hell, he's not even THAT bad right now.

According to this July article...
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2011/7 ... ly-edition
...he's above average defensively, ranking 35th out of 94 catchers.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby Spin » Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:09 pm

NH Tribe Fan wrote:Yeah, more than anything I think this is a strong shot across the bow for LaPorta. I expect they bring in a low priced veteran or use Carlos to battle Matt at 1b next spring.


And Pronk. And Thome. :hide:
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby Am I Here Again? » Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:39 pm

statmasta wrote:...According to this July article...
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2011/7 ... ly-edition
...he's above average defensively, ranking 35th out of 94 catchers.

Hey, Marson is ranked 2nd!!! And Shop-vac is third...
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:42 pm

statmasta wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:Santana at 1B everyday. He might work almost exclusively at 1B all next spring because his days as a catcher look numbered.

I don't see why that's the case. It's not like he doesn't have the ability. He's a very skilled athlete. He just needs to learn how to play the position better and more consistently. It's not a matter of he can't do it, just a matter of he isn't doing it ...yet.

Once he learns to stay down on balls on the dirt so they hit his chest protector, and gets better footwork when throwing on base stealers, he could be great. Hell, he's not even THAT bad right now.

According to this July article...
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2011/7 ... ly-edition
...he's above average defensively, ranking 35th out of 94 catchers.


Ask every pitcher on the staff who he'd rather throw to.

That counts more than any data they are throwing in their defensive calculators. Not to mention, if those same guys were actually watching the games. I'm sure his ranking would not be that high.

To the point of him having the skills to improve, fine, but right now he's CLEARLY not in Marson's league back there, as a matter of fact, he's been close to as big a hack there as he's been at first, but not quite.

Again, for the hundreth time on this subject, there's a reason nearly every damn team has a guy back there that appears to have little idea how to hit. It's also a fact that every one of these teams could find some big dummy to throw back there and rake. There's a reason they don't. Cause you control the pitcher, you control the game. And it's hard for the stat crew to comprehend, but there's a hell of a lot you can't quantify. Those same pitchers that would choose Marson over Santana - hell, a few of them probably couldn't tell you why, but a good receiver has that something, and it has a ton of value. Again, if it didn't, we'd be seeing a hell of a lot more hitting catchers.

At this moment, Santana is a young promising guy back there that can hit.

Marson is a catcher.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:31 pm

WiscTribeFan wrote:Until Th when the rosters expand. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. I'd be shocked if he stayed in C-Bus for very long.


He has to spend 10 days in AAA before he can be recalled. Unless there is an injury we won't be seeing him until football season.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:47 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
WiscTribeFan wrote:Until Th when the rosters expand. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. I'd be shocked if he stayed in C-Bus for very long.


He has to spend 10 days in AAA before he can be recalled. Unless there is an injury we won't be seeing him until football season.


And when was the last time anyone got hurt around there? He should count on the full ten days. :hide:
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby RedDawg53 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:55 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
WiscTribeFan wrote:Until Th when the rosters expand. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. I'd be shocked if he stayed in C-Bus for very long.


He has to spend 10 days in AAA before he can be recalled. Unless there is an injury we won't be seeing him until football season.


Odds are someone will get hurt or someone's current injury worsens. I'm sure Matt is waiting in his SUV for the call up
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby redneckofsc » Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:59 pm

LaPorta sucks.

So does Wedge, Magruder, Dellucci, Jason Michaels and Heath Murray
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby gotribe31 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:03 pm

leadpipe wrote:
statmasta wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:Santana at 1B everyday. He might work almost exclusively at 1B all next spring because his days as a catcher look numbered.

I don't see why that's the case. It's not like he doesn't have the ability. He's a very skilled athlete. He just needs to learn how to play the position better and more consistently. It's not a matter of he can't do it, just a matter of he isn't doing it ...yet.

Once he learns to stay down on balls on the dirt so they hit his chest protector, and gets better footwork when throwing on base stealers, he could be great. Hell, he's not even THAT bad right now.

According to this July article...
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2011/7 ... ly-edition
...he's above average defensively, ranking 35th out of 94 catchers.


Ask every pitcher on the staff who he'd rather throw to.

That counts more than any data they are throwing in their defensive calculators. Not to mention, if those same guys were actually watching the games. I'm sure his ranking would not be that high.

To the point of him having the skills to improve, fine, but right now he's CLEARLY not in Marson's league back there, as a matter of fact, he's been close to as big a hack there as he's been at first, but not quite.

Again, for the hundreth time on this subject, there's a reason nearly every damn team has a guy back there that appears to have little idea how to hit. It's also a fact that every one of these teams could find some big dummy to throw back there and rake. There's a reason they don't. Cause you control the pitcher, you control the game. And it's hard for the stat crew to comprehend, but there's a hell of a lot you can't quantify. Those same pitchers that would choose Marson over Santana - hell, a few of them probably couldn't tell you why, but a good receiver has that something, and it has a ton of value. Again, if it didn't, we'd be seeing a hell of a lot more hitting catchers.

At this moment, Santana is a young promising guy back there that can hit.

Marson is a catcher.


As the Lead Man says, the #1 thing Santana has to work on his his receiving. Where to set up, how to frame pitches etc. Next is managing a pitching staff, because nothing pisses pitchers off more than when it looks like you just don't give a shit, which is how he comes across sometimes. THEN he can move on to controlling his body better on balls in the dirt, speeding up his transfer and cleaning up his footwork. All the tools are there, he just needs to care enough to work on it this offseason.

I have a hard time thinking that if Santana came up to Sandy after this season and said "hey coach, can you turn me into a catcher over the next 4 months?" that Sandy would say no. He does that, and I think he could be 100% better next season. If not, we'll be looking at more of the same behind the dish.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:06 pm

redneckofsc wrote:LaPorta sucks.

So does Magruder




You shut your mouth, that guy was a beast in MVP baseball 2003. :thumb up:
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:07 pm

gotribe31 wrote:I have a hard time thinking that if Santana came up to Sandy after this season and said "hey coach, can you turn me into a catcher over the next 4 months?" that Sandy would say no. He does that, and I think he could be 100% better next season. If not, we'll be looking at more of the same behind the dish.


Why hasn't this been done already? Or, maybe it has, and Santana just doesn't care about anything but hitting.

Until he wants to deal with pain, he'll continue to be a shitty catcher. Watch how he bails on every pitch remotely on the inner half. How he won't block the plate. How he whines and holds up the game every time a foul ball hits him.

You have to sacrifice your body to play the position. You know that. Santana knows it and doesn't want to do it.

Better off working on him at 1B so he's possibly useful there.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:16 pm

You guys are probab,y right. He has been brutal at times behind the plate. He ultimately might end up at 1st or DH.

But, he has the potential. And an average defensive catcher that can mash like this guy can (and he's just scratching the surface) is such a rare and wonderful thing, I just hate the thought of bailing on that too early. Hate it.

Looks like I'm in the minority, but I don't want him moved from behind the plate yet.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:25 pm

motherscratcher wrote:You guys are probab,y right. He has been brutal at times behind the plate. He ultimately might end up at 1st or DH.




sorry couldnt get it any bigger
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:26 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:You guys are probab,y right. He has been brutal at times behind the plate. He ultimately might end up at 1st or DH.




sorry couldnt get it any bigger



Holy crap.....THATS WHAT SHE SAID
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby statmasta » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:36 pm

leadpipe wrote:
statmasta wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:Santana at 1B everyday. He might work almost exclusively at 1B all next spring because his days as a catcher look numbered.

I don't see why that's the case. It's not like he doesn't have the ability. He's a very skilled athlete. He just needs to learn how to play the position better and more consistently. It's not a matter of he can't do it, just a matter of he isn't doing it ...yet.

Once he learns to stay down on balls on the dirt so they hit his chest protector, and gets better footwork when throwing on base stealers, he could be great. Hell, he's not even THAT bad right now.

According to this July article...
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2011/7 ... ly-edition
...he's above average defensively, ranking 35th out of 94 catchers.


Ask every pitcher on the staff who he'd rather throw to.

That counts more than any data they are throwing in their defensive calculators. Not to mention, if those same guys were actually watching the games. I'm sure his ranking would not be that high.

To the point of him having the skills to improve, fine, but right now he's CLEARLY not in Marson's league back there, as a matter of fact, he's been close to as big a hack there as he's been at first, but not quite.

Again, for the hundreth time on this subject, there's a reason nearly every damn team has a guy back there that appears to have little idea how to hit. It's also a fact that every one of these teams could find some big dummy to throw back there and rake. There's a reason they don't. Cause you control the pitcher, you control the game. And it's hard for the stat crew to comprehend, but there's a hell of a lot you can't quantify. Those same pitchers that would choose Marson over Santana - hell, a few of them probably couldn't tell you why, but a good receiver has that something, and it has a ton of value. Again, if it didn't, we'd be seeing a hell of a lot more hitting catchers.

At this moment, Santana is a young promising guy back there that can hit.

Marson is a catcher.

Nobody's saying Santana's better than Marson defensively.

But the fact that so many catchers can't hit is the same reason why Santana is so valuable. You put Santana at first base and he's worthless. He's a nobody. As a catcher he is GOLD. Instead of giving up on him because he hasn't become an elite major league catcher by his, what, 4th year of catching in his life, how about you work with him? Have some patience and teach him the game. There's a reason coaches exist. Let them develop Santana. Nobody becomes a master at their craft overnight. Marson's been catching his entire life. Give Santana time. Don't just cast him off as waste of a catcher now. There's a reason we have a former gold glove catcher on the coaching staff.

Give him time. He's 25 and just started playing the position a couple years ago. Why put all this work in with him at catcher only to say, "You're days as a catcher are numbered. Yeah, we just wasted 3 years of work with you. Meh, whatever. You've only been catching a few years and you're only above average? You're not elite yet? Then we have no use for you behind the plate."

That's silly.

Would you rather have the best defensive catcher in the majors who's also the worst offensive catcher in the majors, or would you rather have an above average defensive catcher who's elite offensively for the position? Yeah, I'll take Santana.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:38 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:You guys are probab,y right. He has been brutal at times behind the plate. He ultimately might end up at 1st or DH.




sorry couldnt get it any bigger


Dude is 25. I am absolutely floored that, before the end of his first full season, you are ready to make hi a DH. Ridiculous.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:40 pm

There. Do you see what you assholes have done? You've put me on the same side of an argument as Statmasta.

This is bullshit.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:41 pm

BYW Statmasta, Santana is far from worthless at first base. But I get what you're saying.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby statmasta » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:41 pm

motherscratcher wrote:You guys are probab,y right. He has been brutal at times behind the plate. He ultimately might end up at 1st or DH.

But, he has the potential. And an average defensive catcher that can mash like this guy can (and he's just scratching the surface) is such a rare and wonderful thing, I just hate the thought of bailing on that too early. Hate it.

Looks like I'm in the minority, but I don't want him moved from behind the plate yet.

I think people focus too much on his egregious errors (like when he missed 2nd base by 30 feet on one throw) when judging him defensively

For the most part he's already average to above average defensively. He just needs to learn some little things: staying down and smothering balls in the dirt rather than coming up, footwork, maybe a quicker release, receiving pitches more calmly. Those are all things that can be worked on easily. All this talk like he's some kind of lost cause that we need to bail on ASAP has me puzzled. Where did that notion come from? He's pretty close defensively, I think. Is he Lou? No. But the only other catcher in the entire major leagues that's even close to as good as Lou Marson defensively is Matt Wieters (Yadi Molina used to be up there, but he's gotten really lazy the past couple years). Santana doesn't need to be Lou defensively to be a great catcher.

I agree with you, don't move him. He'll be a catcher.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby statmasta » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:42 pm

motherscratcher wrote:BYW Statmasta, Santana is far from worthless at first base. But I get what you're saying.

yeah, exaggeration

I'm a big fan of hyperbole to make a point. Don't take stuff like that too literally.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby statmasta » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:46 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
gotribe31 wrote:I have a hard time thinking that if Santana came up to Sandy after this season and said "hey coach, can you turn me into a catcher over the next 4 months?" that Sandy would say no. He does that, and I think he could be 100% better next season. If not, we'll be looking at more of the same behind the dish.


Why hasn't this been done already? Or, maybe it has, and Santana just doesn't care about anything but hitting.

Until he wants to deal with pain, he'll continue to be a shitty catcher. Watch how he bails on every pitch remotely on the inner half. How he won't block the plate. How he whines and holds up the game every time a foul ball hits him.

You have to sacrifice your body to play the position. You know that. Santana knows it and doesn't want to do it.

Better off working on him at 1B so he's possibly useful there.

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He can deal with pain just fine.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:46 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:You guys are probab,y right. He has been brutal at times behind the plate. He ultimately might end up at 1st or DH.




sorry couldnt get it any bigger


Dude is 25. I am absolutely floored that, before the end of his first full season, you are ready to make hi a DH. Ridiculous.



Its not that I want too, I'm fine with them trying next year to make him a 1st baseman since outside of the temporarily resurgent Beau Mills, we have nobody at the position. I was just more stressing the fact that I IMO I think he eventually ends up at DH.

The only defensive tool I have seen is his arm, and he doesn't know how to use it. I have seen him play terrible defense, display a terrible attitude, and in some instances act like a giant pussy. Could this stuff get fixes? Yes. My gut just tells me it doesn't. The kid just seems un-coachable. I pray to God its a maturity thing and he gets over it.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby statmasta » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:48 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:You guys are probab,y right. He has been brutal at times behind the plate. He ultimately might end up at 1st or DH.




sorry couldnt get it any bigger


Dude is 25. I am absolutely floored that, before the end of his first full season, you are ready to make hi a DH. Ridiculous.



Its not that I want too, I'm fine with them trying next year to make him a 1st baseman since outside of the temporarily resurgent Beau Mills, we have nobody at the position. I was just more stressing the fact that I IMO I think he eventually ends up at DH.

The only defensive tool I have seen is his arm, and he doesn't know how to use it. I have seen him play terrible defense, display a terrible attitude, and in some instances act like a giant pussy. Could this stuff get fixes? Yes. My gut just tells me it doesn't. The kid just seems un-coachable. I pray to God its a maturity thing and he gets over it.

Really? All you see is his arm? The man is an athlete. If all you see is his arm, the problem is you, not him.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:54 pm

statmasta wrote:Really? All you see is his arm? The man is an athlete. If all you see is his arm, the problem is you, not him.



Are you related to him or something?

I see a guy who is so athletic he has yet to find a position he can play...well...consistently.

He was athletic enough to play third....but he wasn't very good so they moved him. He was athletic enough to play catcher, where he has been average at best, so they have half moved him to first, where "athletically" he can play but not play very well.

He is young and all that can change, so can he get better? Yes, the ability is there...buried beneath some extremely hard-headedness. ( yes i made up a word )
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:56 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:You guys are probab,y right. He has been brutal at times behind the plate. He ultimately might end up at 1st or DH.




sorry couldnt get it any bigger


Dude is 25. I am absolutely floored that, before the end of his first full season, you are ready to make hi a DH. Ridiculous.



Its not that I want too, I'm fine with them trying next year to make him a 1st baseman since outside of the temporarily resurgent Beau Mills, we have nobody at the position. I was just more stressing the fact that I IMO I think he eventually ends up at DH.

The only defensive tool I have seen is his arm, and he doesn't know how to use it. I have seen him play terrible defense, display a terrible attitude, and in some instances act like a giant pussy. Could this stuff get fixes? Yes. My gut just tells me it doesn't. The kid just seems un-coachable. I pray to God its a maturity thing and he gets over it.


The bottom line is he's NOT an average or above average catcher right now. And he's often not well received in the dugout or clubhouse. We've been through this, I've said it a dozen times even before Asdrubal nearly pinned him by the throat to the dugout wall two weeks ago because of his laziness.

If it's a question of maturity he's got a chance to be a fine catcher made more valuable because of a really good bat that's still developing (scary as that may be).

If it's a lack of motivation or laziness he's fucked behind the plate and it doesn't matter what tools he does or doesn't have.

Time will tell.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:57 pm

statmasta wrote:Really? All you see is his arm? The man is an athlete. If all you see is his arm, the problem is you, not him.


Enlighten us to what you do see. Because it's obviously not the same game we all watch nightly.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby statmasta » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:59 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
statmasta wrote:Really? All you see is his arm? The man is an athlete. If all you see is his arm, the problem is you, not him.



Are you related to him or something?

I see a guy who is so athletic he has yet to find a position he can play...well...consistently.

He was athletic enough to play third....but he wasn't very good so they moved him. He was athletic enough to play catcher, where he has been average at best, so they have half moved him to first, where "athletically" he can play but not play very well.

He is young and all that can change, so can he get better? Yes, the ability is there...buried beneath some extremely hard-headedness. ( yes i made up a word )

"average at best" relative to who?

Have you seen the other starting catchers in this league? Saltalamacchia, Russell Martin, John Jaso, Alex Avila, AJ Pierzynski, Yorvit Torrealaba.....

They're not that good. Santana is average to above average defensively. Stop using Lou Marson as the measuring stick. He's on another level, he's elite. But we don't need Santana to be elite.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby statmasta » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:02 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
statmasta wrote:Really? All you see is his arm? The man is an athlete. If all you see is his arm, the problem is you, not him.


Enlighten us to what you do see. Because it's obviously not the same game we all watch nightly.

I see an athlete. Quick feet, good hands. He's athletic. He's as athletic as anybody you can get back there.

Now I'd like you to enlighten us on what makes him soft. According to you he can't deal with pain, even though according to a writer who actually knows Santana a little bit, that's completely false.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:03 pm

statmasta wrote:
Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
statmasta wrote:Really? All you see is his arm? The man is an athlete. If all you see is his arm, the problem is you, not him.



Are you related to him or something?

I see a guy who is so athletic he has yet to find a position he can play...well...consistently.

He was athletic enough to play third....but he wasn't very good so they moved him. He was athletic enough to play catcher, where he has been average at best, so they have half moved him to first, where "athletically" he can play but not play very well.

He is young and all that can change, so can he get better? Yes, the ability is there...buried beneath some extremely hard-headedness. ( yes i made up a word )

"average at best" relative to who?

Have you seen the other starting catchers in this league? Saltalamacchia, Russell Martin, John Jaso, Alex Avila, AJ Pierzynski, Yorvit Torrealaba.....

They're not that good. Santana is average to above average defensively. Stop using Lou Marson as the measuring stick. He's on another level, he's elite. But we don't need Santana to be elite.


Rather than just post them all here just actually go look at his defensive #'s, i.e fielding%, errors, PB, WP, range factor, or any of the sort.

He is average....and that is being kind.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:04 pm

There's already a thread for this. Let's get back to all agreeing LaPorta is a toad.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:08 pm

peeker643 wrote:The bottom line is he's NOT an average or above average catcher right now. And he's often not well received in the dugout or clubhouse. We've been through this, I've said it a dozen times even before Asdrubal nearly pinned him by the throat to the dugout wall two weeks ago because of his laziness.

If it's a question of maturity he's got a chance to be a fine catcher made more valuable because of a really good bat that's still developing (scary as that may be).

If it's a lack of motivation or laziness he's fucked behind the plate and it doesn't matter what tools he does or doesn't have.

Time will tell.


Totally on board wth this. I'm just nit ready to condem him to 1st just yet, much less DH. There are certainly reasons to be concerned and you've laid them out he and elsewhere.

I guess I'm just an optimist.

And Statmasta, we are in agreement that he should remains catcher, but if you think he's been above average behind the dish this year you've been watching the wrong games.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:12 pm

One more thing, if Santana is the 35th best defensive catcher, that means there is a better cat her for every team in MLB right now. So I'm not sure why that's supposed to be impressive or somehow make him above average.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:13 pm

peeker643 wrote:There's already a thread for this. Let's get back to all agreeing LaPorta is a toad.



You're right. Not sure how it got hijacked.

Maybe Moohead dropped in earlier and made a post specifically designed to make the thread interesting and awesome.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby statmasta » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:14 pm

peeker643 wrote:The bottom line is he's NOT an average or above average catcher right now. And he's often not well received in the dugout or clubhouse. We've been through this, I've said it a dozen times even before Asdrubal nearly pinned him by the throat to the dugout wall two weeks ago because of his laziness.

If it's a question of maturity he's got a chance to be a fine catcher made more valuable because of a really good bat that's still developing (scary as that may be).

If it's a lack of motivation or laziness he's fucked behind the plate and it doesn't matter what tools he does or doesn't have.

Time will tell.

I completely disagree with that. That's kind of like when somebody says so-and-so player is top 5 in the league or all-time or whatever. Well, yeah, making a relative statement like that is easy when you're not actually bringing up the player's peers.

The other catchers in this league really aren't that good. I'd say the only great defensive catchers are Wieters and Marson, and then there's a notable dropoff to the 2nd tier, and I have no problem putting Santana in that tier with guys like Russell Martin, Brayan Pena, and Drew Butera.

I think where a lot of this talk of him not being any good comes from is expectations. We all heard about what a talent he is, so whenever he does something good, well he's supposed to do that. But whenever he makes a mistake it's magnified. The disappointment that I and others as fans feel outweight the positive emotions from good plays. But I think when we objectively look at him and his peers in the AL, he's not bad at all. We get frustrated with Santana, but I guarantee other fans are frustrated with their catchers as well.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:23 pm

statmasta wrote:Now I'd like you to enlighten us on what makes him soft. According to you he can't deal with pain, even though according to a writer who actually knows Santana a little bit, that's completely false.


Have you seen him block the plate all season long?

How many times have you seen him sacrifice his body to block a ball in the dirt?

The ONE time I saw him use his body was when he ran over the opposing catcher.

Name another guy on the team who ducks and bends away from every pitch in off the plate by a fraction of an inch. He's been rung up on borderline inside pitches because he's giving the illusion that they're farther away from him and therefore must be on the inside corner.

He looks pissed off every time a ball hits him on a tip while Lou Marson smiles and asks the ump for a ball. He doesn't delay the game by wandering around looking like someone just murdered his dog. I haven't seen an opposing catcher pout like Santana when hit by a ball.

Stand in there and be a man. Block the plate like you're supposed to. Get down and sacrifice your body to block pitches in the dirt.

Seen him go hard in to the 2B to break up a double play this year? I can't remember a time.


Who is this writer?

Like McPeek said, there's already a Santana thread. But the fact that they sent LaPorta down and are letting Marson catch every day isn't just coincidence. It's because Lou Marson's a far superior catcher. Today. Tomorrow. And in 10 years.

Santana's future is not at that position.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby statmasta » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:28 pm

motherscratcher wrote:One more thing, if Santana is the 35th best defensive catcher, that means there is a better cat her for every team in MLB right now. So I'm not sure why that's supposed to be impressive or somehow make him above average.

Most of those catchers above him are either backups (Marson, Shoppach, Hanigan, Butera, Blanco, Pena, Napoli, R. Rivera, Varitek, Powell, Pudge, Ross, Bard, Schneider, Laird, Hayes) or riding the train between Triple-A and the majors (Gimenez, Teagarden, McKenry, M. Rivera, G Molina, Sardinha, Tatum).

So those guys make up 23 of the 34 guys ahead of Santana. There are only 11 starters, according to that analysis, that are better than Santana (Wieters, Ramos, Hernandez, Ruiz, Hundley, Posey, Y Molina, Soto, Barajas, Montero, Buck).

That makes Santana an above average defensive starting catcher.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:30 pm

statmasta wrote:
peeker643 wrote:The bottom line is he's NOT an average or above average catcher right now. And he's often not well received in the dugout or clubhouse. We've been through this, I've said it a dozen times even before Asdrubal nearly pinned him by the throat to the dugout wall two weeks ago because of his laziness.

If it's a question of maturity he's got a chance to be a fine catcher made more valuable because of a really good bat that's still developing (scary as that may be).

If it's a lack of motivation or laziness he's fucked behind the plate and it doesn't matter what tools he does or doesn't have.

Time will tell.

I completely disagree with that. That's kind of like when somebody says so-and-so player is top 5 in the league or all-time or whatever. Well, yeah, making a relative statement like that is easy when you're not actually bringing up the player's peers.

The other catchers in this league really aren't that good. I'd say the only great defensive catchers are Wieters and Marson, and then there's a notable dropoff to the 2nd tier, and I have no problem putting Santana in that tier with guys like Russell Martin, Brayan Pena, and Drew Butera.

I think where a lot of this talk of him not being any good comes from is expectations. We all heard about what a talent he is, so whenever he does something good, well he's supposed to do that. But whenever he makes a mistake it's magnified. The disappointment that I and others as fans feel outweight the positive emotions from good plays. But I think when we objectively look at him and his peers in the AL, he's not bad at all. We get frustrated with Santana, but I guarantee other fans are frustrated with their catchers as well.


Sigh- Right after I said let's move this to the other Santana thread. ::doh::

Guys like Brian Schneider and Yadier Molina are better catchers/receivers/game callers etc behind the dish. Gerald Laird and Henry Blanco as well. Mauer was but he's nearly useless in the spot now. Rod Barajas is highly thought of defensively as is David Ross. There was a metric out there that took into consideration defensive stats and number of runs saved vs. allowed from the spot a year or two ago.

There are plenty Stat. If I find the article I'll link it.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby statmasta » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:32 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
statmasta wrote:Now I'd like you to enlighten us on what makes him soft. According to you he can't deal with pain, even though according to a writer who actually knows Santana a little bit, that's completely false.


Have you seen him block the plate all season long?

How many times have you seen him sacrifice his body to block a ball in the dirt?

The ONE time I saw him use his body was when he ran over the opposing catcher.

Name another guy on the team who ducks and bends away from every pitch in off the plate by a fraction of an inch. He's been rung up on borderline inside pitches because he's giving the illusion that they're farther away from him and therefore must be on the inside corner.

He looks pissed off every time a ball hits him on a tip while Lou Marson smiles and asks the ump for a ball. He doesn't delay the game by wandering around looking like someone just murdered his dog. I haven't seen an opposing catcher pout like Santana when hit by a ball.

Stand in there and be a man. Block the plate like you're supposed to. Get down and sacrifice your body to block pitches in the dirt.

Seen him go hard in to the 2B to break up a double play this year? I can't remember a time.


Who is this writer?

Like McPeek said, there's already a Santana thread. But the fact that they sent LaPorta down and are letting Marson catch every day isn't just coincidence. It's because Lou Marson's a far superior catcher. Today. Tomorrow. And in 10 years.

Santana's future is not at that position.

The fact that he doesn't block balls in the dirt well isn't a matter of not being tough, it's a matter of not being experienced. He comes up on balls in the dirt which allow the balls to hit his thighs instead of his chest protecter. As a former catcher for 10 years, I can tell you a ball hitting your thigh hurts a hundred times more than a ball hitting your chest protecter. Santana is actually dealing with more pain because he's not a polished defensive catcher, not less.

As for the blocking the plate thing, I'm guessing the FO told Santana not to put his body in harm's way after he had his leg torn to shreds last year, and after what happened to Posey. I don't think that's Santana's issue. We saw last year Santana's willing to take hits.

Santana is playing through games when he can't even see. If that's not tough, I don't know what is. I guess you'll think whatever you want to think.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby statmasta » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:34 pm

peeker643 wrote:
statmasta wrote:
peeker643 wrote:The bottom line is he's NOT an average or above average catcher right now. And he's often not well received in the dugout or clubhouse. We've been through this, I've said it a dozen times even before Asdrubal nearly pinned him by the throat to the dugout wall two weeks ago because of his laziness.

If it's a question of maturity he's got a chance to be a fine catcher made more valuable because of a really good bat that's still developing (scary as that may be).

If it's a lack of motivation or laziness he's fucked behind the plate and it doesn't matter what tools he does or doesn't have.

Time will tell.

I completely disagree with that. That's kind of like when somebody says so-and-so player is top 5 in the league or all-time or whatever. Well, yeah, making a relative statement like that is easy when you're not actually bringing up the player's peers.

The other catchers in this league really aren't that good. I'd say the only great defensive catchers are Wieters and Marson, and then there's a notable dropoff to the 2nd tier, and I have no problem putting Santana in that tier with guys like Russell Martin, Brayan Pena, and Drew Butera.

I think where a lot of this talk of him not being any good comes from is expectations. We all heard about what a talent he is, so whenever he does something good, well he's supposed to do that. But whenever he makes a mistake it's magnified. The disappointment that I and others as fans feel outweight the positive emotions from good plays. But I think when we objectively look at him and his peers in the AL, he's not bad at all. We get frustrated with Santana, but I guarantee other fans are frustrated with their catchers as well.


Sigh- Right after I said let's move this to the other Santana thread. ::doh::

Guys like Brian Schneider and Yadier Molina are better catchers/receivers/game callers etc behind the dish. Gerald Laird and Henry Blanco as well. Mauer was but he's nearly useless in the spot now. Rod Barajas is highly thought of defensively as is David Ross. There was a metric out there that took into consideration defensive stats and number of runs saved vs. allowed from the spot a year or two ago.

There are plenty Stat. If I find the article I'll link it.

Matt LaPorta isn't very interesting anyway. Who wants to talk about him? Let's keep this going.

I agree, all those guys you listed are better. But among just starters, Santana ranks as above average. And even including backups, there are a lot more backups that are worse than Santana than there are backups (like Schneider, Blanco) that are better. So whether you compare him to just starters or everybody, I still think he ranks as average to a bit above average.
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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:37 pm

statmasta wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:One more thing, if Santana is the 35th best defensive catcher, that means there is a better cat her for every team in MLB right now. So I'm not sure why that's supposed to be impressive or somehow make him above average.

Most of those catchers above him are either backups (Marson, Shoppach, Hanigan, Butera, Blanco, Pena, Napoli, R. Rivera, Varitek, Powell, Pudge, Ross, Bard, Schneider, Laird, Hayes) or riding the train between Triple-A and the majors (Gimenez, Teagarden, McKenry, M. Rivera, G Molina, Sardinha, Tatum).

So those guys make up 23 of the 34 guys ahead of Santana. There are only 11 starters, according to that analysis, that are better than Santana (Wieters, Ramos, Hernandez, Ruiz, Hundley, Posey, Y Molina, Soto, Barajas, Montero, Buck).

That makes Santana an above average defensive starting catcher.


No it doesn't. What if the fallout from those guys to Santana goes from 'Capable' to 'Best of those who don't blow'.

I'm done with this. I've violated my own request twice in 5 minutes and there's nothing that can be said to move someone off their position. Especially when you can't measure it completely.

Believe me, being down there as often as I can, the one, true measure is who guys prefer to thrwo to and how teammates perceive someone. Santana doesn't receive well and he's not all that well-received. I'm not sure what more I can say.

He can be an impact player there for a long time. Agree with that. But he has a long way to go to get there. For this team, built on pitching, you need a guy managing the game, calling pitches, setting up hitters, giving pitchers confidence they can bounce a splitter or sinker, whatever. Regardless of Marson being here or not, the Tribe pitchers would pick 45 guys off your list to throw to if given the choice. Maybe more.

Just catching now.

They'd clearly want Sanatana at bat over almost 90% of the guys out there.

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Re: Matt LaPorta optioned to Columbus

Unread postby statmasta » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:38 pm

motherscratcher wrote:And Statmasta, we are in agreement that he should remains catcher, but if you think he's been above average behind the dish this year you've been watching the wrong games.

Of course we've all seen Santana make a ton of boneheaded plays.

But we don't watch every catcher. We don't see all the boneheaded plays other catchers make. Nobody here watches every single game and sees all the Santana-esque mistakes other catchers make and how frustrated their fans are about it. That's why I can't say Santana is below average, it's entirely possible there are a bunch of Carlos Santanas out there in the majors making stupid plays. The only thing I feel truly comfortable going off of his in-depth statistical analysis, because that puts the play of catchers we haven't seen into a format that allows us to juxtapose their ability with Santana's.
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