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08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby trsteve1 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:13 pm

British_Pharaoh wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
redneckofsc wrote:I would like to kick Steve Smith and Ubaldo Jimenez in the nuts.



I'm not sure how much longer I can defend the Ubaldo trade.......

It's bad isn't it?
It's like it's the Colon trade in 2002 and we're Montreal.


Except Montreal got 10 wins out of Colon and a 3.31 ERA...
At least Colon produced for the talent that was given up.. Ubaldo is a complete mess..
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby scrambler » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:13 pm

I know any statement I make on Ubaldo Jimenez will be met with extreme and complete shredding and abuse of anything I say. I stated this in another forum actually beofore this game, but is there any chance Ubaldo is tipping his pitches. I found it odd that Verlander pitched Tuesday and they did not throw him against us today on his normal rest. Porcello stinks and I was just wondering if perhaps they found something in Ubaldo's delivery perhaps that they felt they could hold Verlander back until the Tampa series? And they'd be fine going with Porcello who we blitzed last week and did again today. I would have thought they'd want to bury us and go Verlander today but they didn't and weren't from the start of the series. It worked for them I guess, but it seemed an odd decision to me.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby FortheWin » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:13 pm

It keeps on sounding like Acta is gonna go off this post game conference thing.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby FortheWin » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:14 pm

trsteve1 wrote:
British_Pharaoh wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
redneckofsc wrote:I would like to kick Steve Smith and Ubaldo Jimenez in the nuts.



I'm not sure how much longer I can defend the Ubaldo trade.......

It's bad isn't it?
It's like it's the Colon trade in 2002 and we're Montreal.


Except Montreal got 10 wins out of Colon and a 3.31 ERA...
At least Colon produced for the talent that was given up.. Ubaldo is a complete mess..


Lets give him a year and see if Belcher can help him.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:14 pm

FortheWin wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
redneckofsc wrote:I would like to kick Steve Smith and Ubaldo Jimenez in the nuts.



I'm not sure how much longer I can defend the Ubaldo trade.......


I will never stop defending the trade


Ok......
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby Bigfist » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:41 pm

FortheWin wrote:
trsteve1 wrote:
British_Pharaoh wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
redneckofsc wrote:I would like to kick Steve Smith and Ubaldo Jimenez in the nuts.



I'm not sure how much longer I can defend the Ubaldo trade.......

It's bad isn't it?
It's like it's the Colon trade in 2002 and we're Montreal.


Except Montreal got 10 wins out of Colon and a 3.31 ERA...
At least Colon produced for the talent that was given up.. Ubaldo is a complete mess..


Lets give him a year and see if Belcher can help him.


That makes no sense at all. When a team trades its three best pitching prospects for a supposed ace, he ought to need no fixing at all. If he does, then for sure the trade is a bust.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:44 pm

Bigfist wrote:When a team trades its three best pitching prospects for a supposed ace


That didn't happen.

Two best? Yes

Three best? No chance.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:49 pm

Bigfist wrote:That makes no sense at all. When a team trades its three best pitching prospects for a supposed ace, he ought to need no fixing at all. If he does, then for sure the trade is a bust.


First, we traded two good pitching prospects and a filler guy.

Second, you're talking about a kid changing leagues, drastically changing geographic location, leaving an organization he had been with since he was 16, definitely pitching with some sort of injury (hip flexor was point of contention with trade and those don't just get better), and trying a bit too hard to make an impression. Throwing to two new catchers who he has no rapport with.

Risks don't always work out. But it's beyond unfair to begin calling this trade a bust. This wasn't a rental trade. It's not a short term investment. It's a three-year investment. We don't know what Ubaldo will do next year. No idea. And I like that about the deal. He has gigantic upside, fantastic life on his pitches, he just needs to get healthy and work on command.

To be honest, Ubaldo's a prospect in and of himself. We know the talent is there. We took a risk on him. What makes Ubaldo not a prospect is his age, salary, and track record of MLB experience.

The Indians don't make this trade unless they have concerns about White and/or Pomeranz. White was impressive when he was here. Pomeranz has thrived at the levels of the minors he's pitched at. If they were sure of their projections of those two, they don't make this trade. They weren't, so they took a risk on a proven big league arm.

It's been a tough month for Ubaldo. There's family things in play, a huge transition that affects more than just Ubaldo himself. Not everybody handles that the same. Can't judge this trade for a while yet.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:51 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:You must give Brantley a chance there. That's a horrible decision by Steve Smith.


That shallow?

I was thinking odds were on the side of the runner.


Me too. I had no problem with it. I think you have to take your shot there.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby Bigfist » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:56 pm

Gardner was well thought of. In fact, he was drafted third in 2009, after White and Kipnis. So, while he does not have the probable upside of White or Pomeranz, he is far from a "filler". If he wasn't our third best starting prospect, then I don't know who was. Please don't say Mcallister, Huff, or Gomez. None have the upside of Gardner. Ok..maybe Huff does.

And yes..when you trade this much, I expect him to pitch like CC or Cliff Lee, both of whom moved leagues when traded in mid season, and both of whom pitched like aces. If we thought that Jimenez needed some "fixing", then the trade should never have been made.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:57 pm

Oh boy.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:58 pm

Bigfist wrote:And yes..when you trade this much, I expect him to pitch like CC or Cliff Lee, both of whom moved leagues when traded in mid season, and both of whom pitched like aces. If we thought that Jimenez needed some "fixing", then the trade should never have been made.


There's your problem right there. Ubaldo is not CC or Cliff Lee. Not many guys are that caliber.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:10 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
Bigfist wrote:And yes..when you trade this much, I expect him to pitch like CC or Cliff Lee, both of whom moved leagues when traded in mid season, and both of whom pitched like aces. If we thought that Jimenez needed some "fixing", then the trade should never have been made.


There's your problem right there. Ubaldo is not CC or Cliff Lee. Not many guys are that caliber.


We paid a CC/Cliff Lee type of price though, that's the problem I have with it. You make good points about Ubaldo's problems and risks, but that should have brought somewhat of a discount. Cliff Lee was near the top of his game in 2009 and we had 1.5 seasons of him to offer. I'm admittedly a layman on minor league guys but the return for Lee doesn't seem to match up with what we gave up for one more year of a riskier major league guy.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:11 pm

Kingpin74 wrote:We paid a CC/Cliff Lee type of price though, that's the problem I have with it. You make good points about Ubaldo's problems and risks, but that should have brought somewhat of a discount. Cliff Lee was near the top of his game in 2009 we had 1.5 seasons of him to offer. The return for him doesn't seem to match up with what we gave up for one more year of a riskier major league guy.


If they had done nothing and Carlos Carrasco or Jeanmar Gomez or Zach McAllister had gotten battered today, would everyone be bitching that they did nothing and should have done more?

Can't have it both ways. Take a risk or play it safe and wait.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:16 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
Kingpin74 wrote:We paid a CC/Cliff Lee type of price though, that's the problem I have with it. You make good points about Ubaldo's problems and risks, but that should have brought somewhat of a discount. Cliff Lee was near the top of his game in 2009 we had 1.5 seasons of him to offer. The return for him doesn't seem to match up with what we gave up for one more year of a riskier major league guy.


If they had done nothing and Carlos Carrasco or Jeanmar Gomez or Zach McAllister had gotten battered today, would everyone be bitching that they did nothing and should have done more?

Can't have it both ways. Take a risk or play it safe and wait.


I'm fine with a bold strategy but I can't help but think we took a risk just for the sake of taking a risk. White and Pomeranz were both high end prospects that were in demand. If you're packaging guys like that, aren't you supposed to get a no-questions-asked major league star? Ubaldo's problems just didn't seem to be reflected in the price.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby NH Tribe Fan » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:22 pm

I think White gives the team a better chance to win right now vs. Ubaldo.

That being said, I still like the trade for 2012 & 2013. I viewed this trade has giving us an ace for the window of contention, not us going for everything this year.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:45 pm

Take 3 of 4 from SEA and have DET lose 3 of 4 to TB and you've got a couple games back.

Big 14 game stretch.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby bac5665 » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:01 pm

skatingtripods wrote:Take 3 of 4 from SEA and have DET lose 3 of 4 to TB and you've got a couple games back.

Big 14 game stretch.


This.

While I am getting quite worried about Ubaldo, this team is far from done. We win big this week and we're still right in this race. Panicking right now just shows a lack of perspective. This weekend sucked, no doubt. But there's still quite a bit of season left.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby TribeinLA » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:23 pm

Here is my .02 on things:

Ubaldo - It's now very obvious that he was a trade that we said a) Hey, great if he starts kicking ass immediately and leads us to a title or b)The Tribe's playoff chances are 50/50 at best and we can sign a guy who we are ACTUALLY INTENDING to sign for our run in 2012. Indians are playing around with house money right now. The idea is to put together a staff for 2012 that is as good as it's been for a while. I wouldn't be surprised in the off-season if they deal LaPorta and Fukudome to a team with a 38 year old vet who can be a Finley/Byrd to these young arms for next season. Clearly, Carmona is not going to be the father figure/big brother of this team...not who he is. I think the plan for Ubaldo was to get him now, work with him some, but really use some resources in the off season and make him the best pithcer in the league. He's young; shy; tentative; odd. He does, however, have a hell of an arm and when he's on, he's as good as anyone. Look what he did last season before the break. He's a horse.

Carmona - It's now or never. Step up or step off, Fausto. YOU are gonna have to help carry this team. Not Tomlin...not freaking little CC or Huff. CARMONA - the man we fell in love with in 2007. The man who at times, made me more excited to watch than Sabathia. It's time to build on what he did Wed night and take back over his role as an ace. No one has been talking anything good about him all season. Masterson has ace stuff but he's not Verlander or Beckett or Weaver or a guy who can turn a team around. He's damned good, but he needs a complimentary fellow pitcher. Carmona is the guy. He tanks, we tank. He wins, we all win.

Hafner - I don't know what to make of him, but he's not the same anymore. I was hoping he'd become the next Jim Thome. Not even close. I know we have him signed with options coming soon, no? Well, I do not know what to do here. We can't sit him. We also can't afford to play him every single game. He's starting to become garabage again. I was hoping that wouldn't happen. So, any suggestions here are welcome.

Luis V. - Get rid of him. Get anyone from Phelps to the AA prospect up. I don't care. He is crap. No more.

Right now, the lineup this week should be: 1) Brantley 2) Choo 3) Cabrera 4)Santana 5)Pronk 6)Chisenhall/Hannahan 7)Duncan (call him up...I'm telling you now he's BETTER THAN LA PORTA...he might strike out twice every game but he will give a ball a ride when needed) 8)Donald (until Kip is back) and 9)Marson (3/4 days). This is not the lineup that we all want, but with injuries it's what we have. I am willing to let Duncan play over LaPorta. I just am. I have had enough of Matt. YOU all have, too. How would Duncan be a drop-off. He gets 1/3 of the at-bats and has half the homers.

Amazing what a rook like Kip can do to a team. When he was in the dugout, we looked like a first place team. I don't get it...but we need him back.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:29 pm

skatingtripods wrote:Take 3 of 4 from SEA and have DET lose 3 of 4 to TB and you've got a couple games back.

Big 14 game stretch.


I agree.

This ain't over by a long shot.

A month+ of ballgames left. If they handle their bidness I think they'll be there in October.

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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby Am I Here Again? » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:24 am

TribeinLA wrote:...Hafner - I don't know what to make of him, but he's not the same anymore. I was hoping he'd become the next Jim Thome. Not even close. I know we have him signed with options coming soon, no? Well, I do not know what to do here. We can't sit him. We also can't afford to play him every single game. He's starting to become garabage again. I was hoping that wouldn't happen. So, any suggestions here are welcome.

Luis V. - Get rid of him. Get anyone from Phelps to the AA prospect up. I don't care. He is crap. No more......

Hafner: He's signed through 2012 with a $13M option for 2013 ($2.75M buyout). And since he won't be our next Thome maybe TPTB would entertain the idea of getting Thome to give this team the kind of lift like Lofton did a couple years back. Might be able to get him for a Valbuena. :cheers:

And I am SO ready to end the Luis V. Experience. But, a la Andy Marte, I'm afraid he'll be with us till the end of the season.

And in case you didn't know about this nifty little website let me share it with you. If you go to Cot's Baseball Contracts (<that link takes you to the Tribe page) you can see what every team pays for every player. Don't check the skankees or the Red Sux anytime soon after eating, though. (FWIW this year's paydays to A-Rod and CC add up to more than the entire Tribe payroll for the year. :thud: ) Another one of my favorites is http://www.baseball-reference.com/ for those rare times I want to pretend I understand stats. ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby scrambler » Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:14 am

Kingpin74 wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:
Bigfist wrote:And yes..when you trade this much, I expect him to pitch like CC or Cliff Lee, both of whom moved leagues when traded in mid season, and both of whom pitched like aces. If we thought that Jimenez needed some "fixing", then the trade should never have been made.


There's your problem right there. Ubaldo is not CC or Cliff Lee. Not many guys are that caliber.


I'm admittedly a layman on minor league guys but the return for Lee doesn't seem to match up with what we gave up for one more year of a riskier major league guy.


I'm a layman know nothing on everything, but I think what we got for Lee was fine. I'm big on Carrasco and have defended him all year. He was one of the best starters in MLB the month of June. He had some fiascos in July, but I've argued unsuccessfully he's been a better pitcher than Ubaldo Jimenez all year. Carrasco at the time of the Lee trade was very highly rated in the Philly organization and Knapp as well was a very highly rated low level minor leaguer. White and Pomeranz have big upside, but I'm actually not sure it's any more than what Carrasco has. Many here raised the red flags of why would Colorado trade a guy they had locked up so cheaply for another couple years? The guy was by a long way the best pitcher in baseball the first 4 months of the 2010 season. Now people are saying he's hurt, which then begs a question of why a contending team would trade it's top two prospects on the mound for an injured pitcher?? It is what it is, we all hope he turns it around. He's got lots of time I guess. I'll keep waiting. All I've ever said is the guy is a bad pitcher this year. colorado and cleveland are 9-16 in games started by Ubaldo Jimenez this year. Flip a coin...the chances are less than that you'll get a good start by Ubaldo Jimenez this year. Hopefully he'll help us in September and 2012.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby leadpipe » Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:37 am

scrambler wrote:
Kingpin74 wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:
Bigfist wrote:And yes..when you trade this much, I expect him to pitch like CC or Cliff Lee, both of whom moved leagues when traded in mid season, and both of whom pitched like aces. If we thought that Jimenez needed some "fixing", then the trade should never have been made.


There's your problem right there. Ubaldo is not CC or Cliff Lee. Not many guys are that caliber.


I'm admittedly a layman on minor league guys but the return for Lee doesn't seem to match up with what we gave up for one more year of a riskier major league guy.


I'm a layman know nothing on everything, but I think what we got for Lee was fine. I'm big on Carrasco and have defended him all year. He was one of the best starters in MLB the month of June. He had some fiascos in July, but I've argued unsuccessfully he's been a better pitcher than Ubaldo Jimenez all year. Carrasco at the time of the Lee trade was very highly rated in the Philly organization and Knapp as well was a very highly rated low level minor leaguer. White and Pomeranz have big upside, but I'm actually not sure it's any more than what Carrasco has. Many here raised the red flags of why would Colorado trade a guy they had locked up so cheaply for another couple years? The guy was by a long way the best pitcher in baseball the first 4 months of the 2010 season. Now people are saying he's hurt, which then begs a question of why a contending team would trade it's top two prospects on the mound for an injured pitcher?? It is what it is, we all hope he turns it around. He's got lots of time I guess. I'll keep waiting. All I've ever said is the guy is a bad pitcher this year. colorado and cleveland are 9-16 in games started by Ubaldo Jimenez this year. Flip a coin...the chances are less than that you'll get a good start by Ubaldo Jimenez this year. Hopefully he'll help us in September and 2012.


There's different types of injuries. Pretty clear with his time on the DL, and how out of sink he's been this year that' the guy's not quite right. But the fact of the matter is that the injuries he had are not of the kind that will likely have a long term effect. Not like he's headed for Tommy John.

Christ, do you really thing they traded top prospects while paying a pitchers injuries no never mind?

And those "top two prospects" they traded? Phone me when they have a 4 month stretch like Ubaldo did last year. Cause that's the crux of it - they looked around the league and said, "How many cats are throwing 97 with movement, might be worth the risk of eating a few months, and I think he'll get back to 100%......"

No guarantees, but again Ubaldo is in the clubhouse to a degree. He was the best thing goin' for half a season. And what that means is there's a hell of a lot better chance that Ubaldo bounces back and becomes a good pitcher, than your two prospects have of developing into good pitchers AND making it to the major league inning load without getting hurt. And you could argue one of the two porspects is already on a slippery slope in regard to pitcher injury history.

Lastly, scrambler, could you please wedge in another post on these threads informing all of us how Ubaldo is a bad pitcher this year. Cause, really, haven't heard it enough. And go ahead and assume we all must either be blind, or not watching the games while you're at it.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby DrPoove » Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:14 am

scrambler wrote:I'm a layman know nothing on everything, but I think what we got for Lee was fine. I'm big on Carrasco and have defended him all year. He was one of the best starters in MLB the month of June. He had some fiascos in July, but I've argued unsuccessfully he's been a better pitcher than Ubaldo Jimenez all year. Carrasco at the time of the Lee trade was very highly rated in the Philly organization and Knapp as well was a very highly rated low level minor leaguer. White and Pomeranz have big upside, but I'm actually not sure it's any more than what Carrasco has. Many here raised the red flags of why would Colorado trade a guy they had locked up so cheaply for another couple years? The guy was by a long way the best pitcher in baseball the first 4 months of the 2010 season. Now people are saying he's hurt, which then begs a question of why a contending team would trade it's top two prospects on the mound for an injured pitcher?? It is what it is, we all hope he turns it around. He's got lots of time I guess. I'll keep waiting. All I've ever said is the guy is a bad pitcher this year. colorado and cleveland are 9-16 in games started by Ubaldo Jimenez this year. Flip a coin...the chances are less than that you'll get a good start by Ubaldo Jimenez this year. Hopefully he'll help us in September and 2012.

Carrasco at the time of the Lee trade was NOT a "very" highly rated prospect in the Phillies organization. Kyle Drabek (who has been shaky with TOR) was the "stud" of their farm system at the time. Carrasco had fallen out of favor due to some attitude issues that included him being unable to pitch out of tough innings and continually shrinking once things stopped going his way.

White and Pomeranz were WAY more highly rated than Carrasco. White made it to the big leagues in les than two full years in the minors and Pomeranz was projected to be here some time next year. Carrasco may still be very young but he was not on the fast track like the other two guys.

Had the Tribe had the opportunity to ship out Carrasco instead of one of those two, they would have in a heartbeat.

So we got a #3/4 starter, a utility infielder (Jason Donald), a back-up catcher (Lou Marson) and a low minor league arm (Jason Knapp) for Cliff Lee. I do NOT think what we got for Cliff Lee was fine. I do NOT think what we got for CC Sabathia is fine. What we got for Victor Martinez was very nice.

And I agree with Lead, thanks for letting us know that Ubaldo Jimenez has sucked donkey balls this year, Master of the Obvious.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:00 am

leadpipe wrote:And those "top two prospects" they traded? Phone me when they have a 4 month stretch like Ubaldo did last year. Cause that's the crux of it - they looked around the league and said, "How many cats are throwing 97 with movement, might be worth the risk of eating a few months, and I think he'll get back to 100%......"


Stone cold dead nuts on with this part of the post.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:08 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:Take 3 of 4 from SEA and have DET lose 3 of 4 to TB and you've got a couple games back.

Big 14 game stretch.


I agree.

This ain't over by a long shot.

A month+ of ballgames left. If they handle their bidness I think they'll be there in October.

JHMO, obviously.


I don't get it. People on these boards told me two weeks ago that a sweep at the hands of the Tigers then was certain death to chances of winning the division.

The Tigers do sweep a week and a half later with even fewer games remaining. How can that not be the final shovel full of dirt on the grave?

Could it be the other 50 or so games were meaningful regardless of either Tiger series? It just seems to me when every single game according to the threads is life or death that there's a lot of death and resurrection going on around here. ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:21 pm

peeker643 wrote:The Tigers do sweep a week and a half later with even fewer games remaining. How can that not be the final shovel full of dirt on the grave?


Because if the Indians had been swept at home, not only would it have been demoralizing, it would have put them 7 back.

It's based on context. Entering that Tigers series at home, they had a 4-4 trip where they could have gone 6-2 or 7-1, with each loss ending in dramatic, gut-wrenching fashion. Then they rattled off 6 of 8 before going to Detroit and getting swept.

14 games against scrubs now and you, reasonably, have a great chance to cut it to at least 3.5, if not 2.5, over the next four games. You get it to 2.5, it's like the sweep never really happened. In fact, you'd have gained a half game over the last two weeks.


I get what you're saying, but there's a lot of cause for optimism given the Indians next 14 games. That wasn't necessarily the case when DET was in town.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby Bigfist » Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:33 pm

The whole issue is that who knows what happens next year? Maybe the team is flooded with injuries again. Maybe the Central Division doesn't suck as bad and 86 wins don't win it. Maybe Sizemore NEVER comes back..or is let go. Maybe Pronk can't play anymore. 1B is a huge hole with no obvious help in the system. Who knows if the pen can be anywhere near as effective as this year.

So when you trade a Pomeranz and White (and I will leave out Gardner and McBride) for Jimenez (even if he is under control through 2013), he sure as hell better be ready to help this year, because like it or not, we are in contention this year. We have no idea if we will be in contention next year.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:02 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
peeker643 wrote:The Tigers do sweep a week and a half later with even fewer games remaining. How can that not be the final shovel full of dirt on the grave?


Because if the Indians had been swept at home, not only would it have been demoralizing, it would have put them 7 back.

It's based on context. Entering that Tigers series at home, they had a 4-4 trip where they could have gone 6-2 or 7-1, with each loss ending in dramatic, gut-wrenching fashion. Then they rattled off 6 of 8 before going to Detroit and getting swept.

14 games against scrubs now and you, reasonably, have a great chance to cut it to at least 3.5, if not 2.5, over the next four games.


I just don't think of it that way. And I just don't think that team feels 'demoralized' after their trip to Boston and Texas. Either way there were (and are) a lot of games left to be played.

Bottom line for me is playing well and being healthy and unfortunately they aren't either today.

But that can all change with a good pitching performance or two. Oddly, I'm more bummed about the Kipnis injury than anything else right now given he was not only hot but he seemed to have a motor and passion that spread to the others.

If they pitch and can score 4 or 4 1/ runs per game I think they'll be right there. If not it was a valuable learning tool.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:09 pm

peeker643 wrote:I just don't think of it that way. And I just don't think that team feels 'demoralized' after their trip to Boston and Texas. Either way there were (and are) a lot of games left to be played.


What I was saying is that you asked why the series with the Tigers was so big two weeks ago but some of us are sweeping (pardon the pun) the sweep under the rug. It's because getting swept at home by DET would have been demoralizing. Not the roadie. They had to be happy with that road trip, but hungry for more.

Bottom line for me is playing well and being healthy and unfortunately they aren't either today.


This is true. But they battled in the finale, could have easily won it, and have their ace on the mound tonight.

Not healthy, yes. Agree there. I want to see Chisenhall DH v. RHP, Duncan v. LHP, and Hannahan in there everyday at 3B. Had a great road trip, both at the dish and with the leather. Ride the wave of the new daddy. Getting that kid out healthy was a major boost for his psyche.

If they pitch and can score 4 or 4 1/ runs per game I think they'll be right there. If not it was a valuable learning tool.


Yep, 41 runs a game should be plenty.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:15 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
If they pitch and can score 4 or 4 1/ runs per game I think they'll be right there. If not it was a valuable learning tool.


Yep, 41 runs a game should be plenty.


Oops.

4 1/2

41 for bad Fausto would be fine though. Should still win the majority of his clunkers that way.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:17 pm

peeker643 wrote:41 for bad Fausto would be fine though. Should still win the majority of his clunkers that way.


Yes, and 41 won't be enough for Ubaldo.

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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby Am I Here Again? » Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:27 pm

Bigfist wrote:...And yes..when you trade this much, I expect him to pitch like CC or Cliff Lee, both of whom moved leagues when traded in mid season, and both of whom pitched like aces. If we thought that Jimenez needed some "fixing", then the trade should never have been made.

Since no one else brought this up I figure "why not?". Both CC and Lee moved from the AL to the NL. Rumor has it that the NL is easier to pitch (unless, apparently, if you ARE facing CC or Lee ;-) ;) :wink: ) because you have to face the pitcher. And the 8th guy isn't all that hot either. Ubaldo ended up coming from the NL to the AL where you have to worry about guys 1-9...unless you're facing a line-up like ours. Although I'm not really liking what I've been "seeing" from Ubaldo for most of the time since he came over I'm kinda willing to give him a pass for the rest of the season and hope things click before the end of September. THEN if we see this kind of performance next year...well then :gah: .
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:00 pm

Still think we need to keep in mind this trade was done more for the next two years than this one. The Indians knew Ubaldo was dinged when they made the deal. I also think the Tribe is more in tune where this team is right now and while contending this season is great they are ramping up for 2012 and 2013.

A lot of questions to answer position-wise between now and then but you don't have to worry about the rotation much at all if you get a healthy Jimenez back and these kids continue to develop as they have.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby scrambler » Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:56 pm

leadpipe wrote:
scrambler wrote:
Kingpin74 wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:
Bigfist wrote:And yes..when you trade this much, I expect him to pitch like CC or Cliff Lee, both of whom moved leagues when traded in mid season, and both of whom pitched like aces. If we thought that Jimenez needed some "fixing", then the trade should never have been made.


There's your problem right there. Ubaldo is not CC or Cliff Lee. Not many guys are that caliber.


I'm admittedly a layman on minor league guys but the return for Lee doesn't seem to match up with what we gave up for one more year of a riskier major league guy.


I'm a layman know nothing on everything, but I think what we got for Lee was fine. I'm big on Carrasco and have defended him all year. He was one of the best starters in MLB the month of June. He had some fiascos in July, but I've argued unsuccessfully he's been a better pitcher than Ubaldo Jimenez all year. Carrasco at the time of the Lee trade was very highly rated in the Philly organization and Knapp as well was a very highly rated low level minor leaguer. White and Pomeranz have big upside, but I'm actually not sure it's any more than what Carrasco has. Many here raised the red flags of why would Colorado trade a guy they had locked up so cheaply for another couple years? The guy was by a long way the best pitcher in baseball the first 4 months of the 2010 season. Now people are saying he's hurt, which then begs a question of why a contending team would trade it's top two prospects on the mound for an injured pitcher?? It is what it is, we all hope he turns it around. He's got lots of time I guess. I'll keep waiting. All I've ever said is the guy is a bad pitcher this year. colorado and cleveland are 9-16 in games started by Ubaldo Jimenez this year. Flip a coin...the chances are less than that you'll get a good start by Ubaldo Jimenez this year. Hopefully he'll help us in September and 2012.


There's different types of injuries. Pretty clear with his time on the DL, and how out of sink he's been this year that' the guy's not quite right. But the fact of the matter is that the injuries he had are not of the kind that will likely have a long term effect. Not like he's headed for Tommy John.

Christ, do you really thing they traded top prospects while paying a pitchers injuries no never mind?

And those "top two prospects" they traded? Phone me when they have a 4 month stretch like Ubaldo did last year. Cause that's the crux of it - they looked around the league and said, "How many cats are throwing 97 with movement, might be worth the risk of eating a few months, and I think he'll get back to 100%......"

No guarantees, but again Ubaldo is in the clubhouse to a degree. He was the best thing goin' for half a season. And what that means is there's a hell of a lot better chance that Ubaldo bounces back and becomes a good pitcher, than your two prospects have of developing into good pitchers AND making it to the major league inning load without getting hurt. And you could argue one of the two porspects is already on a slippery slope in regard to pitcher injury history.

Lastly, scrambler, could you please wedge in another post on these threads informing all of us how Ubaldo is a bad pitcher this year. Cause, really, haven't heard it enough. And go ahead and assume we all must either be blind, or not watching the games while you're at it.


Here's my main issue with it. Just looking at it from Colorado's perspective for one second which I guess has been done. They have been a better team than us recently...much better. The actually were a playoff team in 2009 when we stunk. THey made another massive September run last year before petering out very late...still won 15-20 games more than us. They've got Cargo and Tulo...why have they packed it in for 2012?? They've already got superior young position players, so why would they prefer two kids who have done zero to a guy who has had a 4 month stretch like Ubaldo? It's not just 4 months. He was good as a rook in 07, better in 08, better in 09 and better in 10.
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Re: 08/21 - Indians @ Tigers - Salvage a game and head home

Unread postby skatingtripods » Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:18 pm

My mistake, our ace pitches tomorrow's day game. Carmona tonight. My apologies.

Either way, good chance at 3 of 4 here.
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