Filling the Void (Britain's Riots)

[Orenthal]

It should never be left to me to create a new thread, but I'm feeling the need to force our intellectual capacity to engage the topic of the London riots, and the politics of the situation. I see fault line that starts in Greece but weaves its way through France, Italy, the UK, and possibly the United States.

The politics are those of welfare, and its unintended consequences. Those being entitlement, sloth, and learned helplessness. Not to mention also subsidizing violent hooligans, who view work as a life choice. Europe for decades was a socialist utopia under the umbrella of American military power. However promises on top of promises finally rotted their economies, and a turn back to rational policy (mostly just a slowing in the growth, like the great Tea Party victory ).

Obviously I'm falling on the side of the brain (rational/right wing), as opposed to the heart (guilt/liberl/retarded). However, as I said above we need to engage in this issue. Preferable while drinking our favourite ales.

Some links to my/the correct view...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... lenews_wsj
http://www.npr.org/2011/08/10/139405858 ... op-rioting

Gotta get his POV, and authority on all things...
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... db7b48.7f1

[Orenthal]

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I'm not an expert on Greece, but aren't their problems do in large part to the derivative market nonsense that got us in trouble?

The riots in the UK.... I don't understand them either, didn't they started as a reaction to alleged police brutality? Then it morphed into lack of jobs and failing economy.

There's no excuse for looting, burning cop cars, and destroying parts of the city...... which it seems is the same a lot of rioters live in.

[FUDU]

Your up are idiots.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

Speaking of pompous twits, where's our resident Limey?

Hiding from the carnage, or out burning cars?

Stay classy Britain! Ya stupid schmucks

[Cerebral_DownTime]

In all fairness, you really can't wag your finger at anyone for lack of class.

[GodHatesClevelandSport]

The idiotic OP doesn't deserve a response.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

The idiotic OP doesn't deserve a response.

What's OP?

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I've said for years the EU was a terrible idea since if one country goes the rest are going to have to bail them out.

[Ziner]

The idiotic OP doesn't deserve a response.

What's OP?

Orange Pirate. Clearly




Europe is going off a cliff faster than we are, and yet all we hear about from Democrats is how draconian any cuts to the big 3 are. The Euros have sky high taxes and still can't sustain, but if the left had their druthers they would lead us to the same place.

More draconian cuts please.

However, I will say the GOP dropped the ball with the debt deal out of moronic ideology. If Obama was really offering 3 Tril in cuts for 1 Tril in tax revenues they should have taken that deal. Morons running the show all over the US congress right now.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

In all fairness, you really can't wag your finger at anyone for lack of class.

Why not?

Unless you're a pansy assed prima donna I'm as classy as the next guy in this place

Just ask FUDU

'sides, if I want any crap out of a drunk German giant, I'll trip over him while he's passed out on the floor

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I kid, I kid.

You missed the "Jap" Controversy, you probably would've enjoyed it.

And I don't think I've passed out on the floor since 2003.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

I kid, I kid.

You missed the "Jap" Controversy, you probably would've enjoyed it.

And I don't think I've passed out on the floor since 2003.

I know I know....but tell me more about this Jap thing...maybe I WAS there

[motherscratcher]

I kid, I kid.

You missed the "Jap" Controversy, you probably would've enjoyed it.

And I don't think I've passed out on the floor since 2003.

Christ...that poor floor. How's it doing?

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I kid, I kid.

You missed the "Jap" Controversy, you probably would've enjoyed it.

And I don't think I've passed out on the floor since 2003.

I know I know....but tell me more about this Jap thing...maybe I WAS there

index.php?f=3&t=20809&rb_v=viewtopic

Last couple pages, mainly the last one.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I kid, I kid.

You missed the "Jap" Controversy, you probably would've enjoyed it.

And I don't think I've passed out on the floor since 2003.

Christ...that poor floor. How's it doing?

Believe it or not, we don't talk much.

[peeker643]

Better not fuck up the start of EPL season Saturday.

They do that I'm gonna sit up, take notice, learn what this all about and then say something sarcastic and inappropriate about it.

Things will be fine in a few million years after the earth is scorched. Something will grow a gill or antennae and start this cycle over again.

Relax.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Soccer hooligans are human trash. They manage to ruin an entire sporting event by starting riots and being sucker punching little bitches.

[Orenthal]

The idiotic OP doesn't deserve a response.

Yet...

[Cerebral_DownTime]

The idiotic OP doesn't deserve a response.

Yet...

Did the Emperor teach you the Jedi Mind trick?

[British_Pharaoh]

It's not all bad, at least it has given us images such as these.




31 year old TEACHER who was prosecuted for looting walks into a lamp post.

[gotribe31]

I'm not an expert on Greece, but aren't their problems do in large part to the derivative market nonsense that got us in trouble?

The riots in the UK.... I don't understand them either, didn't they started as a reaction to alleged police brutality? Then it morphed into lack of jobs and failing economy.

There's no excuse for looting, burning cop cars, and destroying parts of the city...... which it seems is the same a lot of rioters live in.

I think the original excuse was that the police shot and killed a known drug dealer who had a gun on him at the time of the shooting. The rioting was because he may not have fired at the police first. Seriously.

This is a side effect of having a police force that doesn't carry firearms, in my opinion. The cops are outnumbered for the most part, and are on an even footing with the rioters who carry clubs, bats, etc. They're not afraid of the cops, because they figure they have an even or better chance to win the fight.

[Orenthal]

The idiotic OP doesn't deserve a response.

Yet...

Did the Emperor teach you the Jedi Mind trick?

I just think he read the Ahmadinejad link and found his opinion matched.

Nevermind what the librarian thinks I stand by my OP. Multiculturalism and Social Welfare have created a group of young people who have not assimilated, have not integrated, and have little hope or desire to be part of the economy. Craddle through college paid for, then probably one of the most generous social welfare states in existence has led to a feeling of helplessness and blame of "others" for their lot. It takes only the smallest perceived injustice to explode the tinder that has been created.

Remember that it wasn't much over a year ago when the Tories started cutting back on the social welfare programs, and there was a similar, but smaller and less widespread flare up. Tie this with a few in Labour and the "people on the street" (the looters or those standing by taking cellphone video) complaining its because the governemnt is cutting their programs, or its because of bankers/evil rich, and you have the connection with Greece. Whose own riots erupted only after they were forced to pass an austerity budget to get Eurozone bailouts.

SOCIAL SAFTEY NETS AND MULTICULTURALISM AREN'T BAD!

It is only when politicians realize they can take advantage of both that they become troublesome. Continued fear mongering and extensions of social programs create a dependent voting block. This removes the desire of the have nots to become haves, and allows politicians to blame their lot on "others". This leads to helplessness, isolation, and violent outbursts. Multiculturalism goes from celebrating and accepting other cultures, to excusing and promoting immigrants to create their own islands withing society. These isolated pockets often are major recepients of those social welfare programs and can become a powerful voting block. Its more oil in water then a melting pot.

[Orenthal]

^^Agree that intensifies the rioting.

Here are facts and not just my opinion. All from the BBC hardly a right wing bastion.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14412752

Also from the BBC timeline of events.

18:15 BST - Mark Duggan, 29, is shot dead by police at Ferry Lane, Tottenham.

The death occurs during an operation where specialist firearm officers and officers from Operation Trident, the unit which deals with gun crime in the African and Caribbean communities, are attempting to carry out an arrest.

Mr Duggan is a passenger in a minicab and is shot after an apparent exchange of fire. A police officer's radio is later found to have a bullet lodged in it.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) announces it will investigate the incident and later says it believes two shots were fired by police. It also confirms that an illegal firearm was recovered from the scene.

Also funny is the role Blackberry's and Social Networking have played in the looting. Confirming my opinion both suck, and that Rich should stay away from the BB...
http://techcrunch.com/2011/08/11/absolu ... don-riots/

[Orenthal]

Long, but solid opinion piece.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... z1UflCQo00

fucking yobbos

[British_Pharaoh]

http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Rioter ... 4136756297

Some of these are really inspired.

[peeker643]

http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Rioters-Vs-Photoshop/232804136756297

Some of these are really inspired.

Dude- Tottenham v. Everton Saturday morning (or 330pm your time I think).

They playing that or not? Any news?

[British_Pharaoh]

http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Rioters-Vs-Photoshop/232804136756297

Some of these are really inspired.

Dude- Tottenham v. Everton Saturday morning (or 330pm your time I think).

They playing that or not? Any news?

It has been called off. But the other 9 games this weekend are on.

Including the mighty Albion against the champions.

[peeker643]

http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Rioters-Vs-Photoshop/232804136756297

Some of these are really inspired.

Dude- Tottenham v. Everton Saturday morning (or 330pm your time I think).

They playing that or not? Any news?

It has been called off. But the other 9 games this weekend are on.

Including the mighty Albion against the champions.

ESPN was televising the Spurs-Everton matchup. I wonder if they will provide an alternative.

ETA- looks like Fox Soccer channel has a slate of games set to be televised:

10am- Liverpool v. Sunderland

1230pm- Newcastle v. Arsenal

230pm- Fulham v. The Randy Lerner's

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I'm not an expert on Greece, but aren't their problems do in large part to the derivative market nonsense that got us in trouble?

The riots in the UK.... I don't understand them either, didn't they started as a reaction to alleged police brutality? Then it morphed into lack of jobs and failing economy.

There's no excuse for looting, burning cop cars, and destroying parts of the city...... which it seems is the same a lot of rioters live in.

I think the original excuse was that the police shot and killed a known drug dealer who had a gun on him at the time of the shooting. The rioting was because he may not have fired at the police first. Seriously.

This is a side effect of having a police force that doesn't carry firearms, in my opinion. The cops are outnumbered for the most part, and are on an even footing with the rioters who carry clubs, bats, etc. They're not afraid of the cops, because they figure they have an even or better chance to win the fight.

There are English cops with guns, Firearms Units and the Armed Response Vehicles.

But it doesn't matter, since most western police riot teams are trained to never fire a gun into a crowd..... for reasons that should be obvious.

[Orenthal]

^I agree. The issues with British police effectiveness have less to do with guns and more to do with being neutered (rules almost favor the criminals) the last couple decades by Parliament. Though it does seem that there is a complete lack of fear of the police in every video.

Think that has much to do with all the tough talk coming out of Cameron and some MP's.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

^I agree. The issues with British police effectiveness have less to do with guns and more to do with being neutered (rules almost favor the criminals) the last couple decades by Parliament. Though it does seem that there is a complete lack of fear of the police in every video.

Think that has much to do with all the tough talk coming out of Cameron and some MP's.

To me it seems like fighting the cops is just entrenched in some Brits' DNA. That might be what some consider a good night out. A steak, a pint, and a brawl with the cops. I also don't think there is any police force who are better trained and more experienced when it comes to rioters.

[GodHatesClevelandSport]

Hey, look at that. A bunch of rioters have good jobs and plenty of money.

Sorry they don't fit your stereotype:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/08 ... ?hpt=hp_c1

[Cerebral_DownTime]

What stereotypes?

In every riot there are people from every class and creed. Some people just like mayhem and violence.

[Orenthal]

^I agree. The issues with British police effectiveness have less to do with guns and more to do with being neutered (rules almost favor the criminals) the last couple decades by Parliament. Though it does seem that there is a complete lack of fear of the police in every video.

Think that has much to do with all the tough talk coming out of Cameron and some MP's.

To me it seems like fighting the cops is just entrenched in some Brits' DNA. That might be what some consider a good night out. A steak, a pint, and a brawl with the cops. I also don't think there is any police force who are better trained and more experienced when it comes to rioters.

http://www.economist.com/node/21525945

Somewhat balanced piece from The Economist. They don't hit on the issues I FEEL (opinion alert) are the root cause, but they do put forth 2 issues. A Miller Lite, nice version, of almost what I was getting at in my OP, and the police being too politically correct and why they were, or perceived to be looking on.

Also has a blurb that hits on what GHCS stated. Notwithstanding the hyperbole, sarcasm, and overt partisan hackiness in my OP I can be wrong on the whole thing. Even if my opinion, the majority opinion, is off base, it is at the very least credible. It is why I said I shouldn't be starting threads, and why I wanted to engage "our minds."

[Orenthal]

Oh and btw, looks like Scotland Yard is using some of the tools they were readying for the Olympic Games to track down some of the looters. Stuff like facial recognition, so not only do you need masks, but better get some HD wrap arounds so they cant measure the distance between yer eyes...

Uh, oh... BLACKS BEATING WHITES ALERT! (I mean if yer gonna be guilty of stereotyping)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ds-newsxml

I'll give it a bit more time, but I'm pretty sure my POV will stand up to a handful of people who happened to have jobs. Note my opinion had nothing to do with race.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

On August 4th police intending to arrest a young man in Tottenham, north London, shot him dead instead. Neither the Metropolitan Police (missing much of its upper echelons, thanks to the phone-hacking scandal)

Wow.... That's scary when a scandal involving a rag newspaper can destroy the leadership of one of the oldest police forces in the world.

It's a shame no one listened to the father who lost his son killed in the hit and run. Here is a guy who just has his son taken, a young man trying to PROTECT local shops, and he's calling for peace and calm..... maybe he should be a MP.

[gotribe31]

I'm not an expert on Greece, but aren't their problems do in large part to the derivative market nonsense that got us in trouble?

The riots in the UK.... I don't understand them either, didn't they started as a reaction to alleged police brutality? Then it morphed into lack of jobs and failing economy.

There's no excuse for looting, burning cop cars, and destroying parts of the city...... which it seems is the same a lot of rioters live in.

I think the original excuse was that the police shot and killed a known drug dealer who had a gun on him at the time of the shooting. The rioting was because he may not have fired at the police first. Seriously.

This is a side effect of having a police force that doesn't carry firearms, in my opinion. The cops are outnumbered for the most part, and are on an even footing with the rioters who carry clubs, bats, etc. They're not afraid of the cops, because they figure they have an even or better chance to win the fight.

There are English cops with guns, Firearms Units and the Armed Response Vehicles.

But it doesn't matter, since most western police riot teams are trained to never fire a gun into a crowd..... for reasons that should be obvious.

I'm not saying they should be firing blindly into the crowd, I'm just saying the fact that the rioters are on an even keel with the police (for the most part) as far as weaponry can't help. The firearms units and ARV's are a small, small minority of the officers over there, so they can't be expected to be everywhere at once.

Again, not saying they should just mow all these guys down with .50 cals, just saying that cops with guns might have had a better chance of controlling the thing at the start and not letting it get to this point.

[RickNashEquilibrium]

[GodHatesClevelandSport]

Reality -- the thieving starts at the top:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peter ... he-bottom/

[Orenthal]

^Part truth, part aggrandizement. The politicians guilty, businessmen maximizing profits legally? Not so much.