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Marson at C, Santana at 1B

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Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:28 pm

Paul Cousineau would appear to agree with those who see value in Santana playing 1B every day and Marson assuming the lion's share of the catching duties.

If you look at the 8/10 game thread you'll see I'm fully supporting Pauly's recommendation and, it would appear, so are the numbers: http://bit.ly/q93ZVd
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby Symbolic47 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:45 pm

Anything that keeps LaPorta on the pine is a bonus. He just is totally worthless. Its obvious the staff likes Marson, and Ive been impressed with the way he calls a game. Hes never going to be much of a hitter, but we can afford that. With the plus offense were going to get from the MIF, it more than makes up for it IMO. Im also tired of watching Santana taking lazy stabs at balls in the dirt, and not getting down and blocking the damn ball. Would be for the best all around.

- OTOH I have zero faith in Matt LaPorta anymore. I have been a supporter for a long time, and thought he would turn into a good hitter. But he clearly has no clue, and has the baseball IQ of a stadium dog.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby pup » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:51 pm

Two weeks ago..who thought we would be talking about the plus offense making it able to hide Marson's bat?
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:53 pm

Considering that Marson gets about two hits a week, I think the less of him in the lineup, the better.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby Rat_Tail » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:56 pm

Yeah I hate to keep knocking on LaPorta but he really is a poor mans Russell Branyan. And that's a pretty generous comparison. Which is sad.

He is either swinging at a terrible pitch, checking his swing, whiffing like a girl, or hitting the occasional home run.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:58 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Considering that Marson gets about two hits a week, I think the less of him in the lineup, the better.


If that's the response you didn't read the article. Because it acknowledges the nominal difference between Marson and LaPorta and provides the rationale for making the move anyway.

Which you didn't speak to. ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby Symbolic47 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:07 pm

Rat_Tail wrote:Yeah I hate to keep knocking on LaPorta but he really is a poor mans Russell Branyan. And that's a pretty generous comparison. Which is sad.

He is either swinging at a terrible pitch, checking his swing, whiffing like a girl, or hitting the occasional home run.



At this point I would be ecstatic if Matt could turn into a poor mans Russel the Muscle.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby paulcousineau » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:09 pm

pup wrote:Two weeks ago..who thought we would be talking about the plus offense making it able to hide Marson's bat?

Amazing...now figure you take out Carrera for Choo and suddenly maybe you can actually hide Marson's bat. Assuming of course, that Kipnis continues to be Chase Utley.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:09 pm

peeker643 wrote:
GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Considering that Marson gets about two hits a week, I think the less of him in the lineup, the better.


If that's the response you didn't read the article. Because it acknowledges the nominal difference between Marson and LaPorta and provides the rationale for making the move anyway.

Which you didn't speak to. ;-) ;) :wink:


That is true, I didn't see there was an article linked.

I will read it, and then dispute all of its salient points! Starting with pining for Marson in the lineup is like wishing for more playing time for Jack Hannahan. Dude can't hit. His glove won't make up for it.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby DrPoove » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:14 pm

Love me some Tofu Lou.

What is this team being built around for the next 2-3 years? Pitching.

Would you rather have a defensive catcher who can throw out baserunners, call a helluva game and has the trust of the pitching staff or a guy behind the plate who looks like a monkey (expletive deleted) a football half of the time, has a propensity for passed balls and has to look into the dugout to call the game.

I will take the former.

Especially when you can shift Santana over to 1B and (as Peeker correctly pointed out) not lose a lot offensively by not having a spot for LaPorta. Kid just looks average at best. Doesn't hit for enough average, power or consistancy to be what you want to have at a "power" position.

For a guy who was supposed to the the "premier power hitter in the minors" it seems that he has gone bust-o.I hope he turns it around but I do not see it happening.

Love me some Tofu Lou. I will buy me a Tofu Lou jersey t-shirt.

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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby Symbolic47 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:16 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Considering that Marson gets about two hits a week, I think the less of him in the lineup, the better.


If that's the response you didn't read the article. Because it acknowledges the nominal difference between Marson and LaPorta and provides the rationale for making the move anyway.

Which you didn't speak to. ;-) ;) :wink:


That is true, I didn't see there was an article linked.

I will read it, and then dispute all of its salient points! Starting with pining for Marson in the lineup is like wishing for more playing time for Jack Hannahan. Dude can't hit. His glove won't make up for it.



Nobody is saying Marson can hit. We are just saying that having him catching regularly improves the team. Of course now that I need it, I cant find the link I was looking at the other night. But the team ERA is significantly lower with Marson calling the shots than Santana. Take into account the all around ineptitude of LaPorta and its a move I would go for till next season.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby paulcousineau » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:25 pm

Symbolic47 wrote:
GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Considering that Marson gets about two hits a week, I think the less of him in the lineup, the better.


If that's the response you didn't read the article. Because it acknowledges the nominal difference between Marson and LaPorta and provides the rationale for making the move anyway.

Which you didn't speak to. ;-) ;) :wink:


That is true, I didn't see there was an article linked.

I will read it, and then dispute all of its salient points! Starting with pining for Marson in the lineup is like wishing for more playing time for Jack Hannahan. Dude can't hit. His glove won't make up for it.


Nobody is saying Marson can hit. We are just saying that having him catching regularly improves the team. Of course now that I need it, I cant find the link I was looking at the other night. But the team ERA is significantly lower with Marson calling the shots than Santana. Take into account the all around ineptitude of LaPorta and its a move I would go for till next season.

Going into last night, ERA of 3.76 when pitching to Marson and a 4.12 ERA when throwing to Santana.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby Symbolic47 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:28 pm

Haha i feel dumb. I didn't read the article, I wont lie. But thanks for saving me the time......I was losing my mind trying to find my link haha.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:35 pm

I think Lou is about as good as he's going to be as a hitter.

I think LaPorta is better than he's been showing lately, but not good overall. So that gives a team struggling offensively more chances to score.

Now, I did take a look at Lou's game log for the year. The Indians are 17-10 when he has 4 or more plate appearances. Interstingly, they are 2-10 when he has exactly 3 plate appearances. I am assuming he started in every one of those games. What that tells me is that he's not exactly hurting the team when he plays a full game. But he is not helping when no one else is doing anything. In other words, he's not a difference maker. If the guys who are supposed to be doing their jobs at the plate don't do their jobs at the plate, Marson's not going to make up for that. Hence, since he bats ninth, he only gets to the plate three times in games where no one is hitting, and he rarely does enough with the bat to make up for everyone else. When everyone is clicking, Lou gets his 4 ABs and he doesn't do anything terrible to ruin the team's chances. Sometimes he's even helping!

I suppose it is akin to the Angels' situation where they shipped out slugging catcher Mike Napoli and use no-hit Jeff Mathis regularly. They have a worse offense than the Indians but a better record (and fewer runs allowed).
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:47 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:I think Lou is about as good as he's going to be as a hitter.

I think LaPorta is better than he's been showing lately, but not good overall. So that gives a team struggling offensively more chances to score.

Now, I did take a look at Lou's game log for the year. The Indians are 17-10 when he has 4 or more plate appearances. Interstingly, they are 2-10 when he has exactly 3 plate appearances. I am assuming he started in every one of those games. What that tells me is that he's not exactly hurting the team when he plays a full game. But he is not helping when no one else is doing anything. In other words, he's not a difference maker. If the guys who are supposed to be doing their jobs at the plate don't do their jobs at the plate, Marson's not going to make up for that. Hence, since he bats ninth, he only gets to the plate three times in games where no one is hitting, and he rarely does enough with the bat to make up for everyone else. When everyone is clicking, Lou gets his 4 ABs and he doesn't do anything terrible to ruin the team's chances. Sometimes he's even helping!

I suppose it is akin to the Angels' situation where they shipped out slugging catcher Mike Napoli and use no-hit Jeff Mathis regularly. They have a worse offense than the Indians but a better record (and fewer runs allowed).


I agree with that. But what I think gets lost in a lot of discussions here are the varyine degrees of improvement that are possible. Putting Marson in at C and Santana at 1B isn't going to revolutionize your lineup or your defense.

But if you're looking to wring every drop of advantage you can get out of a $49m payroll and with what's available then I think it's the right move.

No one is pining for Marson or Hannahan. Just saying that when you look at the players on the rosters and their potential value, guys like those two have more value than guys like LaPorta (in his present state- I agree he might be a BIT more than what he is now) or Duncan.

A .4 ERA differential between Santana and Marson is significant IMO.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:51 pm

A few things.

First, if LaPorta could ever be a poor man's Russ Branyan, we'd all be happy. He's a great mistake hitter, but pitchers are getting pretty good at not throwing him mistakes much. He hasn't adjusted to major league pitching well at all. Will he? I'm not really sure.

Second, when you consider Lou Marson in the lineup, I really think that you need to forget the offensive side of things a bit. Think Jim Hegan. Yes, he's hovering at the Mendoza line, and will probably never be a real solid hitter, but look at his defensive game and tell me he isn't light years ahead of Santana *right now*. Forget Santana's potential behind the dish. Means nothing. He's a bat.

Marson calls a great game, is fantastic at blocking balls in the dirt and is throwing out potential base stealers and nearly a 50% clip. Think on that stat for a bit. How many teams aren't running on him for fear of getting thrown out? That alone is worth the price of seeing him flail at the plate. He's 25, which is still really young, but he receives like a veteran out there.

The catcher is the field general out there. I'm much more comfortable with Marson doing that job than Santana right now.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:02 pm

Santana doesn't even call his own game, I don't think. He's always looking in to the dugout for signs. How can a pitcher trust a catcher who isn't even competent enough to call his own game?

Santana's footwork is awful, he gets under the release on throws, and his receiving skills are severely lacking. I'll take Marson's .220 average if he's saving us runs defensively.

Saddest part is, and I've talked with McPeek a lot about this, Santana is uncoachable. He has to be. There are catchers all over the place in the clubhouse pre and post-game and he's regressing. He looks like he simply doesn't give a shit. Not to mention his pull-happy approach at the plate. Kid's been told he's the next big thing for a long time. He's got Terrelle Pryor Syndrome.

Watch the way Kipnis glared at him on the pop-up in the 6th last night. Not the first time it's happened either with a fielder staring at him. He's on his own little island out there.

Pitching will win this division and they're undoubtedly better with Marson catching.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:33 pm

And I don't want the polarization process to take root. I love Santana's bat and I'm thrilled he's here. He just needs to understand that being more receptive to coaching and making improvements is for his benefit and his best interests.

If he continues down this road he's still a terrific hitter and a viable part of a team. But he'll also be settling short of what he's capable of and may ostracize himself with his teammates.

Albert proved that's not fatal (and Santana isn't in that offensive category). But it would be, IMO, disappointing.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:51 pm

I'd rather have the guy the pitcher trusts behind the plate. I don't think Carlos is that guy.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby DrPoove » Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:00 pm

Tofu Lou in the line-up again today.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby Commodore Perry » Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:02 pm

DrPoove wrote:What is this team being built around for the next 2-3 years? Pitching.



This is a very good point. Santana's catching skills appear below average but more importantly I would guess he does not contribute much to calling a game. Can't see a tribe hurler throwing a no-hitter and citing Santana' pitch calling as a reason.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby scrambler » Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:03 pm

I agree 100 percent with Cousineau's article. LaPorta is so bad right now, I think Marson and Santana playing gives you your best shot to win. Santana as a .235 hitter is far and away our 3rd best offensive player. His offensive potential I still feel is far to great to risk him playing C much longer. Santana as a .280 hitter is one of the best offensive players in the game. I think he'll get there. You don't want that catching, especially if he isn't any good at it.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:45 pm

Said this last week. Again, there's a reason several teams - several GOOD teams have guys catching that appear to have no idea how to hit. It's also a fact that these same teams could put a better hitter in there and sacrifice the defense. There's a reason they don't - cause if you gotta guy back there who's a hack, you're gonna lose.

Not that I know this answer for fact, but we all could make a good guess - Ask every Tribe pitcher who they'd like to work with. This counts for more than something.

Bottom line, the 2011 Cleveland Indians are a better team with Lou Marson catching. Most importantly, they pitch better, which is the strength of the team.

And God Hates, nobody's jumping for joy cause Lou Marson is in the line-up. We see the offensive limitations. It's a vote against a defensive hack at a critical position.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby DrPoove » Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:49 pm

NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE

FREE LOU MARSON!
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:23 pm

Really cant argue with the article or any of the points really. Not sure how much longer we can try to hope LaPorta can become what we want him to become. But we want to win now, and Marson behind the plate more is a good way to help do that
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby StewieG » Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:53 pm

Is LaPorta's hip still bothering him? He just seems like he's swinging with his arms and not using his legs much at all. That, and he tries to pull EVERYTHING. I cringe when I see him trying to pull a pitch a foot outside.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:52 pm

StewieG wrote:Is LaPorta's hip still bothering him? He just seems like he's swinging with his arms and not using his legs much at all. That, and he tries to pull EVERYTHING. I cringe when I see him trying to pull a pitch a foot outside.


I don't think he'll ever be the same guy as he was before the hip injury.

Case in point: Luis Valbuena played left field for a couple nights. LaPorta can't do it any more.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby Spanky » Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:08 am

Santana is a DH at best. He is a showboat behind the plate even though he sucks and he's too short to play first and he makes no effort there either. The fact that he got in a fight with Chris Perez in spring training and again with Asdrubal the other night should tell you everything you need to know about him. He thinks he's the second coming and won't hear otherwise. Lou has the potential to be a better hitter. Before he got sent down for Santana last year he was really starting to hit his stride. And by the way, Santana being brought up last year was nothing more than a PR stunt since we were facing the Nationals with Strasberg. Santana is a man without a position and I would rather not have him on this team. He's cancer.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:54 am

Spanky wrote:Santana is a DH at best. He is a showboat behind the plate even though he sucks and he's too short to play first and he makes no effort there either. The fact that he got in a fight with Chris Perez in spring training and again with Asdrubal the other night should tell you everything you need to know about him. He thinks he's the second coming and won't hear otherwise. Lou has the potential to be a better hitter. Before he got sent down for Santana last year he was really starting to hit his stride. And by the way, Santana being brought up last year was nothing more than a PR stunt since we were facing the Nationals with Strasberg. Santana is a man without a position and I would rather not have him on this team. He's cancer.


Congratulations.... you've won the "biggest over-reaction post of the year" award.

On this board, that's quite an accomplishment.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby Spanky » Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:09 pm

care to disagree with any of the aforementioned points?
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:19 pm

Spanky wrote:care to disagree with any of the aforementioned points?


I disagree with most of them actually.

Especially calling him a cancer. Like I said, that is the biggest over-reaction of the year and quite frankly ridiculous.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:20 pm

Spanky wrote:care to disagree with any of the aforementioned points?



Yeah. I'll quote Joe Pesci in My Cousin Vinny:

"Everything that guy just said is bullshit. Thank you."
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby Spanky » Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:32 pm

You clearly havent met him before
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:35 pm

Spanky wrote:You clearly havent met him before


Who? Joe Pesci?
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! » Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:22 pm

You just said Lou Marson has the potential to be a better hitter than Santana. You sir, are an idiot.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:34 pm

YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! wrote:You just said Lou Marson has the potential to be a better hitter than Santana. You sir, are an idiot.





I think he meant lou has the potential to be better than Lou is right now, not lou has the potential to be better than Santanna.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby Spanky » Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:41 pm

YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! wrote:You just said Lou Marson has the potential to be a better hitter than Santana. You sir, are an idiot.


context is a bitch.....idiot
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! » Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:42 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! wrote:You just said Lou Marson has the potential to be a better hitter than Santana. You sir, are an idiot.





I think he meant lou has the potential to be better than Lou is right now, not lou has the potential to be better than Santanna.


Haha yeah that makes more sense. You sir, are not an idiot. Just overreacting way too much.
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! » Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:46 pm

I'm also confused as to how bringing up the top prospect still in the minors at the time, was a PR stunt?
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Re: Marson at C, Santana at 1B

Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:11 pm

YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! wrote:I'm also confused as to how bringing up the top prospect still in the minors at the time, was a PR stunt?


Not sure I'd let myself get confused by a slice of about the worst post ever.
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