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Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby Dellucci TailGator » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:24 am

Another Passan passage that stood out:
Maybe Drew Pomeranz and Alex White are different. Perhaps the velocity Pomeranz lost late last year as a junior at Ole Miss was an aberration and he’ll throw 10 healthy seasons. It’s possible the middle-finger injury that has kept White on the disabled list since May is nothing more than a fluke at which he’ll laugh when the Rockies are celebrating another World Series that came from the Jimenez trade. Luck could well be on their side.


As Indians fans we're worried Colorado is passing off damaged goods. We never think that perhaps the Indians are selling on two guys that send up red flags physically,though. If you're the Rockies, you're just praying White's finger is okay and Pomeranz doesn't need TJ next year.

You can't live in fear of pitchers getting injured, because most of the time it's going to happen no matter how diligent a physical you give. Pitchers get hurt. That's what they do. You're just trying to ride them long enough to get to wherever you're going and then find some more. You don't build your team around the longevity of guys hurling a ball 95 mph unnaturally 30 times a year.

Another thought: if White didn't hurt his finger this season, I don't think they make this trade.

For godsake, Jake Westbrook needed TJ surgery.. A guy with a flawless repeatable motion who seemed to be floating the ball towards the plate.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:45 am

Dellucci TailGator wrote:As Indians fans we're worried Colorado is passing off damaged goods. We never think that perhaps the Indians are selling on two guys that send up red flags physically,though. If you're the Rockies, you're just praying White's finger is okay and Pomeranz doesn't need TJ next year.


That's a good point. Interesting perspective.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:46 am

peeker643 wrote:
swerb wrote:Rack the living shit out of this piece.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=A ... cts_073111


When it's all said and done this is exactly right. I said it before in the The Wrap, you benefit form prospects by them becoming players or trading them for one (or more).
But when your resources are limited you just better be right a lot more often than you're wrong.

Hopefully they're right about UJ's health and hopefully the fact they can't hit doesn't last or doesn't matter.

They microwaved the process last night.

Stunning.




“Here’s the thing,” the scout said Friday. “If you have a chance to get a known quantity, someone who has been there and done that, you do it. Do you understand?”

Ubaldo Jimenez is 27 years old. He arrived in 2007 with an odd delivery in which his arms seem to cantilever in the wrong direction. Somehow he coaxed 100-mph fastballs from that funk. Last year, his fastball, splitter, slider and curveball played together with harmonic beauty. Jimenez started 13-1 with a 1.15 ERA – one of the best starts in history and the blossoming of a toolset that reminded scouts why they value projection over production.

It’s that sort of dreaming that has birthed the prospect revolution. It’s funny: The majority of scouts employed by baseball teams file reports on amateur and minor league players, and the scouts bellyache about the overvaluation of the very prospects whose existence necessitates their employment.

Baseball’s prospect fetish is more pragmatic than some font of avant-garde theory. In a nutshell: Prospects are cheap. Whether it’s the Indians, with their revenues in the bottom 10, or the New York Yankees, everybody likes a sale. So the smartest teams horde prospects and use them judiciously – sometimes to trade for the best player on the market, like the Indians did with Jimenez, and other times to complement their major league team, as they’ve done with third baseman Lonnie Chisenhall(notes) and second baseman Jason Kipnis(notes).


A running theme on these boards.....

"Prospect Guy" refusing to understand the chasm between "Prospect" and "Good"

It's ridiculously hard to develop into an excellent major league player. Even harder at the pitching position cause of injuries.

There's a reason Smoltz/Doyle Alexander from 95 years ago is still brought up - cause there's a zillion similiar transactions since where the young pitcher fell off the face of the earth.

Ask the Pirates how 15 years of drafting the next great pitcher number 1 turned out.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:57 am

I get the big risk of counting on prospects to pan out. Some do, most don't. My biggest fear was and is the possibility of Jimenez getting hurt or becoming ineffective at the cost of two blue chippers who could very well be good themselves. Doesn't leave a lot to fall back on if this trade fails. And being a small market team, we can't supplement our holes through free agency like the Yankees or Red Sox can do. Getting that physical as part of the deal alleviates that to a large degree...at least they're sure what they're getting.

Going all in for next year (and hopefully this one, too) is exciting, but it sure puts the pressure on. I just hope these guys can step up. Maybe this trade galvanizes them and they pull their heads out of their asses a little. That might be the best effect of the entire trade.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:09 pm

The bottom line is simply that they made a bold move for the short & moderate term future. A move that does hold some promise and didn't just sit back with their feet in the water.

Now it's up to the players and the manager to make it all happen.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby JacksonDysonJackson » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:12 pm

1Perry wrote:
swerb wrote:Rack the living shit out of this piece.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=A ... cts_073111


"Here’s the thing,” the scout said Friday. “If you have a chance to get a known quantity, someone who has been there and done that, you do it. Do you understand?”

:thumb up:


But, is he a known quantity? Seems like there are a lot of question marks to me.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:27 pm

Sounds like his physical is taking place right now. I wonder what happens if the Indians see something they don't like. Back out completely? Acquire him anyway, but revise the deal to reflect their concerns?
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby Bigfist » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:30 pm

I would guess no deal if Jimenez fails the physical. That would be awkward situation, to say the least.

Still wondering what others think..who is the odd guy out in the rotation, if, in fact, Jimenez is an Indian?
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby Commodore Perry » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:33 pm

Bigfist wrote:I would guess no deal if Jimenez fails the physical. That would be awkward situation, to say the least.

Still wondering what others think..who is the odd guy out in the rotation, if, in fact, Jimenez is an Indian?



Gotta be Huff.

Ubaldo
Masterson
Tomlin
Carrasco
Carmona

And we still have good depth in columbus.

With just a little bit of hitting, that rotation can win quite a few games for us.

I'm liking this deal the more I think it over.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby Symbolic47 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:57 pm

Im hoping cookie gets shipped of to Columbus to send a message after that complete mess that was Friday. Pitch got away my ass. See what Huff has got, the time is now for him.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:10 pm

Talked to a scout yesterday as I was walking on the concourse at Canal Park. Told me exactly what is said in that article. If you get a chance for a proven pitcher like Ubaldo at the cost of prospects, in our position, you do it.

The more I think about this trade, the more I like it.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:14 pm

Symbolic47 wrote:Im hoping cookie gets shipped of to Columbus to send a message after that complete mess that was Friday. Pitch got away my ass. See what Huff has got, the time is now for him.


What are you talking about? He was right on top of the plate! :lmfao:
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby Spin » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:14 pm

Adverb Harry wrote:Sounds like his physical is taking place right now. I wonder what happens if the Indians see something they don't like. Back out completely?


The Red Sox did yesterday
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby FortheWin » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:15 pm

We could go on a 6 man rotation
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby The Math God » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:25 pm

I would rather have traded that minor league talent for Hunter Pence.
But when folks talk about prospects, remember these guys were the 2nd coming--Andy Marte, Jeremy Sowers, Adam Miller, Aaron Laffey.....
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby davemanddd » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:29 pm

Commodore Perry wrote:I'm liking this deal the more I think it over.


i like the deal the more i think it over too, but with one exception - the fact that it includes both white and pomeranz. if it was for 3 players and just one or the other of them but not both, i say great deal. now if colorado would have thrown in outfielder ty wiggington too, i think i would feel much, much better about it.

i mean how come the indians could only get 4 prospects for then-reigning cy young winner cc sabathia in 2008 and then the following year they got 4 prospects for then-reigning cy young winner cliff lee along with starting outfielder ben francisco, but yet the rockies got 4 prospects for the guy who only finished 3rd in last year's cy young voting???

something just isn't adding up here. i mean it took both the cy young winning lee and the ben francisco treat to get 4 prospects out of philly and yet we couldn't get jimenez for only 3 prospects or we couldn't get another serviceable player included for the 4th prospect???

at first blush, i say the rockies got the better end of this deal. of course, you know what "they" say that you can't judge a trade for 2 or 3 years and so 2 or 3 years from now when white and pomeranz are locking down the # 1 & # 2 spots in the rockies starting rotation, are we still going to be liking this deal??? i think not.

of course it all depends on what happens this season if the trade actually helps the indians win the division??? if they do win the division and are in the playoffs for each of the next 2 years with jimenez being the stud of the rotation during that time, well then of course i say "geat deal". we can only hope. go tribe!!!

:itcf:
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:30 pm

davemanddd wrote:
Commodore Perry wrote:I'm liking this deal the more I think it over.


i like the deal the more i think it over too, but with one exception - the fact that it includes both white and pomeranz. if it was for 3 players and just one or the other of them but not both, i say great deal. now if colorado would have thrown in outfielder ty wiggington too, i think i would feel much, much better about it.

i mean how come the indians could only get 4 prospects for then-reigning cy young winner cc sabathia in 2008 and then the following year they got 4 prospects for then-reigning cy young winner cliff lee along with starting outfielder ben francisco, but yet the rockies got 4 prospects for the guy who only finished 3rd in last year's cy young voting???

something just isn't adding up here. i mean it took both the cy young winning lee and the ben francisco treat to get 4 prospects out of philly and yet we couldn't get jimenez for only 3 prospects or we couldn't get another serviceable player included for the 4th prospect???

at first blush, i say the rockies got the better end of this deal. of course, you know what "they" say that you can't judge a trade for 2 or 3 years and so 2 or 3 years from now when white and pomeranz are locking down the # 1 & # 2 spots in the rockies starting rotation, are we still going to be liking this deal??? i think not.

of course it all depends on what happens this season if the trade actually helps the indians win the division??? if they do win the division and are in the playoffs for each of the next 2 years with jimenez being the stud of the rotation during that time, well then of course i say "geat deal". we can only hope. go tribe!!!

:itcf:


We have control of Ubaldo through 2013, we didnt have that long of control of CC and Lee when we dealt them.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby Spin » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:38 pm

Don't forget Carrasco, Tomlin, and as far as I can tell Huff are unrestricted free agents after this season.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:38 pm

FWIW: Apparently New York backed out when Colorado nixed the physical, specifically a shoulder MRI. At least we got them to include that.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:44 pm

Spin wrote:Don't forget Carrasco, Tomlin, and as far as I can tell Huff are unrestricted free agents after this season.


What are you talking about?

None of them are free agents until after 6 years ML service.... and they're nowhere near that level.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby gotribe31 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:44 pm

Spin wrote:Don't forget Carrasco, Tomlin, and as far as I can tell Huff are unrestricted free agents after this season.


Huff is the only one of those three who even has one full year of ML service. So no, they are not free agents after this season.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby davemanddd » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:54 pm

YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! wrote:
davemanddd wrote:
Commodore Perry wrote:I'm liking this deal the more I think it over.


i like the deal the more i think it over too, but with one exception - the fact that it includes both white and pomeranz. if it was for 3 players and just one or the other of them but not both, i say great deal. now if colorado would have thrown in outfielder ty wiggington too, i think i would feel much, much better about it.

i mean how come the indians could only get 4 prospects for then-reigning cy young winner cc sabathia in 2008 and then the following year they got 4 prospects for then-reigning cy young winner cliff lee along with starting outfielder ben francisco, but yet the rockies got 4 prospects for the guy who only finished 3rd in last year's cy young voting???

something just isn't adding up here. i mean it took both the cy young winning lee and the ben francisco treat to get 4 prospects out of philly and yet we couldn't get jimenez for only 3 prospects or we couldn't get another serviceable player included for the 4th prospect???

at first blush, i say the rockies got the better end of this deal. of course, you know what "they" say that you can't judge a trade for 2 or 3 years and so 2 or 3 years from now when white and pomeranz are locking down the # 1 & # 2 spots in the rockies starting rotation, are we still going to be liking this deal??? i think not.

of course it all depends on what happens this season if the trade actually helps the indians win the division??? if they do win the division and are in the playoffs for each of the next 2 years with jimenez being the stud of the rotation during that time, well then of course i say "geat deal". we can only hope. go tribe!!!

:itcf:


We have control of Ubaldo through 2013, we didnt have that long of control of CC and Lee when we dealt them.


granted, cc was a 2-month rental, but lee still had a year and a half left on his contract and francisco still wasn't even arbitration eligible yet. i just wish they could have gotten another player like wiggington included in the deal instead of just jimenez alone.

also, keep in mind, we would have had control of both white and pomeranz for 6 more years, which now the rockies will enjoy.

it figures, we finally draft some top-flight players over the last 2 years after enduring the 7 years of ugh from john mirabelli, but now we won't get to see them play in an indians uniform. just doesn't seem fair, does it???
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby Spin » Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:56 pm

That's right. I was going by spotrac.com.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:03 pm

CaminoTribe Nick Camino
Source confirms Matt McBride is in an Akron hospital with eye fracture ball struck him during BP Friday. Holding up Jimenez trade.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby FortheWin » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:09 pm

skatingtripods wrote:CaminoTribe Nick Camino
Source confirms Matt McBride is in an Akron hospital with eye fracture ball struck him during BP Friday. Holding up Jimenez trade.


They didn't know this yesterday?
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:10 pm

Wow. This is almost turning into a soap opera. What happens next, we try to slip in McBride's evil twin?
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:36 pm

They are confirming that Jiminez passed his physical. Officially an Indian.

Welcome to the fold Ubaldo. Don't shit the bed.

Please.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby Am I Here Again? » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:43 pm

So glad to see so many of you climbed down off the chandeliers after a good night's sleep. ;-) ;) :wink: Even D-Pronk edited the title of the thread. I must admit thought that is has been great fun reading all the rants. Your docs must all be so proud of your blood pressure readings...

OK, enough nonsense. I still can't believe no one else has hit on the fact that I pointed out in the wee hours of the morning (1:10AM in this very thread) that DEEtroit was also in the hunt for Jiminez as recently as Friday. Not only did we add a supposed ace to our rotation we kept him out of the rotation of our biggest challenger (at the present but look out behind). It could be a double win for the Tribe if he works out as well as we all hope.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:13 pm

Mitch Talbot DFA'd to make room on 40-man roster for Ubaldo.

Still need to make a move to add him to the 25-man roster (Huff or Little CC).
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:41 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:Mitch Talbot DFA'd to make room on 40-man roster for Ubaldo.

Still need to make a move to add him to the 25-man roster (Huff or Little CC).


Looks like each of them gets one more start to make their case. Ubaldo in line to go Friday in Texas, which would be Fausto's turn in the rotation. That would mean pushing Fausto back to one of their two spots.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:20 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
dazindiansfanuk wrote:Mitch Talbot DFA'd to make room on 40-man roster for Ubaldo.

Still need to make a move to add him to the 25-man roster (Huff or Little CC).


Looks like each of them gets one more start to make their case. Ubaldo in line to go Friday in Texas, which would be Fausto's turn in the rotation. That would mean pushing Fausto back to one of their two spots.


Who get's taken off the roster temporarily then?

Do they not have to add Ubaldo to the 25-man straight away??
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby phutatorius » Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:27 pm

I'd expect they won't make a roster move until the day he starts. Question is when that happens — yesterday's inning could be the equivalent of a bullpen session. Figure he could start basically whenever, unless they want to keep him on his five-day cycle (and my guess is they won't, if that means fewer appearances).

Huff is slated to pitch Tuesday. Hard to pull him out of that game. Harder still to hold Ubaldo in reserve until Carrasco's due to start on Wednesday.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby Bigfist » Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:29 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:
dazindiansfanuk wrote:Mitch Talbot DFA'd to make room on 40-man roster for Ubaldo.

Still need to make a move to add him to the 25-man roster (Huff or Little CC).


Looks like each of them gets one more start to make their case. Ubaldo in line to go Friday in Texas, which would be Fausto's turn in the rotation. That would mean pushing Fausto back to one of their two spots.


Who get's taken off the roster temporarily then?

Do they not have to add Ubaldo to the 25-man straight away??


Good point. I think they do, unless he takes his alloted 72 hours to report to Cleveland.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:29 pm

phutatorius wrote:I'd expect they won't make a roster move until the day he starts. Question is when that happens — yesterday's inning could be the equivalent of a bullpen session. Figure he could start basically whenever, unless they want to keep him on his five-day cycle (and my guess is they won't, if that means fewer appearances).

Huff is slated to pitch Tuesday. Hard to pull him out of that game. Harder still to hold Ubaldo in reserve until Carrasco's due to start on Wednesday.


Acta's already said Ubaldo isn't starting in the Red Sox series..... is going to make his debut in Texas.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:31 pm

Damn, I was 100% jacked up to buy tickets to the Sox series if he was starting.

Now, feh.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby skatingtripods » Sun Jul 31, 2011 6:36 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:Who get's taken off the roster temporarily then?

Do they not have to add Ubaldo to the 25-man straight away??


Hard to say. Can't send Herrmann down because you probably need him in this series.

I'd guess that they wait to add him until Wednesday? Not sure what the rule would be on him being in the dugout or whatever.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:23 pm

Talbot was DFA'd. They'll make a move on the 25 man right before he pitches.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby Eckersley » Sun Jul 31, 2011 8:29 pm

Am I Here Again? wrote:I still can't believe no one else has hit on the fact that I pointed out in the wee hours of the morning that DEEtroit was also in the hunt for Jiminez as recently as Friday. Not only did we add a supposed ace to our rotation we kept him out of the rotation of our biggest challenger (at the present but look out behind). It could be a double win for the Tribe if he works out as well as we all hope.


Good point, although the Tigers did trade for Fister. He's no Ubaldo, but he should improve their rotation.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:13 pm

•More than a handful of teams called the Indians "to gauge the club’s willingness to flip Ubaldo Jimenez less than 24 hours after acquiring him." The Indians wanted Jimenez for themselves though. Rosenthal adds that the Indians entertained a "flurry of offers" for starter Fausto Carmona before the deadline.


very interesting.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby RedDawg53 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:48 pm

[quote="We have control of Ubaldo through 2013, we didnt have that long of control of CC and Lee when we dealt them.[/quote]

Makes me wonder why Colorado would trade him if he was still under contract for 2 more seasons. Maybe its been said on the 6 pages of this topic already, not sure.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby pup » Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:55 pm

RedDawg53 wrote:[quote="We have control of Ubaldo through 2013, we didnt have that long of control of CC and Lee when we dealt them.


Makes me wonder why Colorado would trade him if he was still under contract for 2 more seasons. Maybe its been said on the 6 pages of this topic already, not sure.[/quote]

Because every day they hold onto him, the return decreases. They obviously decided that they were not going to extend him after 2014, and with his language contract voiding that 2014 option if they traded him, they had to deal him now to get the proper value.

They learned from the CC and Lee trades it would appear.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby Eckersley » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:08 pm

RedDawg53 wrote:[quote="We have control of Ubaldo through 2013, we didnt have that long of control of CC and Lee when we dealt them.


Makes me wonder why Colorado would trade him if he was still under contract for 2 more seasons. Maybe its been said on the 6 pages of this topic already, not sure.[/quote]

Evidently they were overwhelmed. :bag:
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby TribeinLA » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:24 pm

Wonder what we could have done to add either Ianetta or Wigginton to that deal? I'm confident Antonetti didn't hang up the phone and go "Doh! Forgot to ask about Ianetta and Ty! Shirley, get the Rockies back on the phone."

I am assuming the Rockies did NOT ask about Carmona (could you imagine him at Coors), but probably wanted to get Chisenhall or Kipnis, too. Glad we didn't...especially if it would have been for Wigginton. No thnks. I did want Ianetta, though.

The Rockies got a fair shake. They look like they have an understudy for Helton and if one of the three pitchers turns out to be a 15 game-winner within 2 years, they got what they traded for. Maybe more.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:52 pm

pup wrote:
RedDawg53 wrote:[quote="We have control of Ubaldo through 2013, we didnt have that long of control of CC and Lee when we dealt them.


Makes me wonder why Colorado would trade him if he was still under contract for 2 more seasons. Maybe its been said on the 6 pages of this topic already, not sure.


Because every day they hold onto him, the return decreases. They obviously decided that they were not going to extend him after 2014, and with his language contract voiding that 2014 option if they traded him, they had to deal him now to get the proper value.

They learned from the CC and Lee trades it would appear.[/quote]

Yeah, in that sense, it was smart on their part to trade now in order to maximize his value. I'd say they accomplished that. But still, with such a huge amount of time of time remaining, it still struck me as very odd they wouldn't try to keep him around and reload with that strong young core they already have. You've got Tulo, Carlos Gonzalez, and an ace pitcher, and you decide your cheap, young, very effective pitcher is more valuable as a trade asset? Imagine how that would have gone over here in Cleveland. Heck, remember how pissed people were when Lee was traded with a year and a half left, and, at least in my opinion, that trade made more sense from Cleveland's side than this one does from Colorado's, considering we were spinning out of control and were clearly not going to contend during the duration of Clifton's remaining time. I'm not sure you can say the same about Colorado, but if this is what they wanted (and Ubaldo is sufficiently healthy in the Indians' view, a major factor in justifying this trade), then both sides walked away with what they wanted. I'm just not sure why Colorado really wanted this, is all. Their fans have got to be pissed, and it's hard to blame them. But hey, we don't make those calls.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:55 pm

TribeinLA wrote:Wonder what we could have done to add either Ianetta or Wigginton to that deal? I'm confident Antonetti didn't hang up the phone and go "Doh! Forgot to ask about Ianetta and Ty! Shirley, get the Rockies back on the phone."



Ha! Maybe that's exactly what happened:

"Whoops! Well, it's too late now. I'll just get Ludwick and call it a day. Wait, Pittsburgh got him? Crap. Well, Grady's coming back soon. We'll be fine."
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:00 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
Rosenthal adds that the Indians entertained a "flurry of offers" for starter Fausto Carmona before the deadline.


very interesting.


Maybe Rosenthal got that backwards and it was an "offer of Flurries." My local ice cream stand sells those. They're pretty damn good. Antonetti might have been smart to take the deal!
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:13 pm

pup wrote:Because every day they hold onto him, the return decreases. They obviously decided that they were not going to extend him after 2014, and with his language contract voiding that 2014 option if they traded him, they had to deal him now to get the proper value.

They learned from the CC and Lee trades it would appear.


It was an interesting deal from Colorado's side. Clearly they've got two young hitters signed long term in CarGo and Tulowitzki. With UJ signed on for the next 3 seasons and at a rock-bottom price for an ace, you could easily imagine them trying to make a run for it in the next couple of years, especially with Helton in the twilight of his career.

For them to deal him, they had to believe in their heart of hearts that he would never pitch like the true ace he was last year. Bottom line is that they were selling at the peak of his worth. If they believed he was truly the guy who won 19 games last year, there's no way they trade him with that contract. He will make $2.8M less than Carmona next year, and $3.25M less in 2013. That's how cheap this guy really is. If he pitched like he did last year, even if they lost him after 2014 to FA, they would have gotten their money's worth and much, much more out of him, especially if they got to the playoffs. You don't deal a young ace with a ridiculous contract like that unless you think he's not ever going to fulfill that promise again.

He's an innings eater and a guy who misses bats (and the strike-zone occasionally). The Rocks are betting that the won't repeat 2010, we are betting that he will, and that he and Masterson will be a killer 1-2 punch. You don't trade two top pitching prospects for a #2 or 3 guy.

This is similar to the situation if we pick up Carmona's expensive option. We will bet that he'll pitch like he once did, not like he has for a large part of this season. I'm happy to see him pitching better of late, actually. He is the true wild-card for us and for our success over the next couple of years. If he pitches up to his potential, we've got a fantastic rotation, one that's going to be tough to beat. We just need the young bats to figure it out.

The way I see it playing out is that White ends up as the closer of the future in Colorado and Pomeranz a solid #2 guy, maybe #1. If that happens, they will have had a very successful deal. McBride's a spare piece, and Gardner's a project.

If Masterson hadn't have broken out this season as a legit ace, I don't believe they make this deal. As much as they need UJ to be the 2010 version, they'll need Masterson to also pitch at this level next year for us to be successful.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby pup » Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:26 pm

Maybe they just decided that Jimenez+Jason Hammel (+Jorge De La Soul when he comes back) wasn't quite enough.

And they don't have anyone in the pipeline to fill in those spots. So getting a 2 and a 3 is better than having a 1.

And the Indians decided they had enough depth in the rotation that a 1 was more important than more 2s and 3s.

Maybe, and I know this is crazy in this day and age, but just maybe somebody didn't lose in the trade? Maybe a couple of people got together and figured out each others wants match their needs and made a deal that works for both sides...in principle. Now all of the other factors (luck, health, development so on and so on) takes over and you see how it shakes out.

Maybe we just traded 2 quarters for a fifty cent piece.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:00 pm

pup wrote:Maybe they just decided that Jimenez+Jason Hammel (+Jorge De La Soul when he comes back) wasn't quite enough.

And they don't have anyone in the pipeline to fill in those spots. So getting a 2 and a 3 is better than having a 1.

And the Indians decided they had enough depth in the rotation that a 1 was more important than more 2s and 3s.

Maybe, and I know this is crazy in this day and age, but just maybe somebody didn't lose in the trade? Maybe a couple of people got together and figured out each others wants match their needs and made a deal that works for both sides...in principle. Now all of the other factors (luck, health, development so on and so on) takes over and you see how it shakes out.

Maybe we just traded 2 quarters for a fifty cent piece.


I do agree with this. The Rocks took as big of a risk in this deal as we did. I haven't read much about the deal from the Rockies angle. I don't know if their fan base was pissed off or not, or if they thought that the potential they are getting in return is worth it.

I do know that if we got guys like Pomeranz and White for CC or Lee, people around here would have been doing cartwheels.

This trade has brought to light the fascination with top prospects. Some folks think the Rocks won this deal. Passan thinks the Tribe did. We're not going to know the answer to that, if there is one, for a few years. Clearly the Rockies don't believe White's finger injury is going to be an issue long-term, and Antonetti isn't worried that UJ's drop in velocity and numbers this year is troubling either. If UJ flames out, at least he's not going to have massive salary to eat. Let's hope it doesn't go that direction, however.

It would be our luck, though that he blows out his elbow against the Rangers. The entire city would be on suicide watch.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby JCoz » Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:54 pm

This was a quote from Knights article today:

The odds of pitching prospects tell us that White and Pomeranz won’t both turn out to be top-notch pitchers. It’s possible neither will. But more than likely, one will emerge as a bona fide ace, and will probably still be a bona fide ace long after Jimenez has left the Indians to be somebody’s inning-eating No. 3 starter.


So not only is it MORE THAN likely that we traded away a bonafide ace, but one that will far outlast the one we just got in Jiminez.

The article tries to paint a levelheaded view at prospects, but this paragraph badly betrays him as believing whole heartedly in going down the very same line of thinking that helped management pass on Pedro years ago.

I don't know whether or not Jiminez has legit issues that will doom his career, but it just seems insane to state that any prospect is more than likely to become the most coveted of assets in MLB- the FOR bonafide Ace. And to top it off with predicting longevity as the cherry on that Sunday..again we are talking about a pitcher here....well that's bordering on elite level optimism......or I guess pessimism, in this case.
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