Cleveland Indians & MLB

by **FortheWin** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:24 pm

So is the deal official yet?

by **dazindiansfanuk** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:25 pm

FortheWin wrote:So is the deal official yet?

Doubt it will be until after the game.

by **Adverb Harry** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:27 pm

If we were getting someone else, too (Wiggington?), it'd be one thing. (Still wouldn't like it, but it wouldn't look quite as bad to me.) But we've just fired all our major bullets and not even gotten a bat out of it.

by **e0y2e3** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:28 pm

Adverb Harry wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:No, you are making shit up.

They had those two locked up and plan to build around them. Pitchers in this day and age don't lock themselves up early like that. It's why aces get dealt.

I don't care if you don't like it, stop making up bullshit reasons to not like it.

That's not making up a bullshit reason. They can control him for THREE more years. That's a long time. Longer than we're getting. I would be pissed if we'd had traded away CC three years early...so would everyone else. With the talent they've got, they could contend again next year, let alone through 2014. Just a very odd move for them, and it makes me suspicious.

They gave up on contending and their actions have proved it.

We got a shit pile for CC on the half year when we kept him praying to contend.

And we got meh for Lee w/ 1.5 years left.

In this day and age, w/ how prospects are overvalued you have to trade a pitcher that is going to command top dollar early to get a return. It's reality.

You know this and are just huffing and puffing.

by **Anglefan** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:29 pm

Adverb Harry wrote:If we were getting someone else, too (Wiggington?), it'd be one thing. (Still wouldn't like it, but it wouldn't look quite as bad to me.) But we've just fired all our major bullets and not even gotten a bat out of it.

What bat are we getting for Pomeranz? Lay out for us all of the great options that are out there who we should have been able to flip Pom for.

by **metalhead9x9** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:34 pm

Yeah, Ubaldo's had a proven track record and our two blue-chippers aren't sure things, but it'd be a bit more reassuring if Ubaldo hasn't lost some mph's on his fastball. Plus that funky delivery doesn't exactly scream longevity.

by **Adverb Harry** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:34 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
Adverb Harry wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:No, you are making shit up.

They had those two locked up and plan to build around them. Pitchers in this day and age don't lock themselves up early like that. It's why aces get dealt.

I don't care if you don't like it, stop making up bullshit reasons to not like it.

That's not making up a bullshit reason. They can control him for THREE more years. That's a long time. Longer than we're getting. I would be pissed if we'd had traded away CC three years early...so would everyone else. With the talent they've got, they could contend again next year, let alone through 2014. Just a very odd move for them, and it makes me suspicious.

They gave up on contending and their actions have proved it.

We got a shit pile for CC on the half year when we kept him praying to contend.

And we got meh for Lee w/ 1.5 years left.

In this day and age, w/ how prospects are overvalued you have to trade a pitcher that is going to command top dollar early to get a return. It's reality.

You know this and are just huffing and puffing.

I agree that this maximizes his value, but I don't agree that they had to actually trade him. They could contend with him for three more years. That's an eternity in baseball. Who knows what they could have accomplished with their ace on board.

Does this mean we trade Masterson next year if we start tanking early? Jiminez, too? (And I'm not being sarcastic by asking this. It's a rhetorical question.)

by **Adverb Harry** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:37 pm

Anglefan wrote:
Adverb Harry wrote:If we were getting someone else, too (Wiggington?), it'd be one thing. (Still wouldn't like it, but it wouldn't look quite as bad to me.) But we've just fired all our major bullets and not even gotten a bat out of it.

What bat are we getting for Pomeranz? Lay out for us all of the great options that are out there who we should have been able to flip Pom for.

I'm not. There aren't many. I'm saying we should have at least held out for someone like Wiggington in this deal if we're giving up our top prospect.

by **dazindiansfanuk** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:38 pm

This trade, if it goes down as reported, is a defining trade for Antonetti.

It also shows a clear message that the front office believe 2011-2013 is their window of opportunity. With Choo, Hafner and AC all controlled thru 2013 I guess the feel now is their chance to make a mark.

As much talent as White and Pom have, I think you could make a solid arguement that they wouldn't be at their peak in those years.

It's bold, perhaps foolish.... one thing's for sure though..... it's definitely different!

by **Adverb Harry** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:40 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:This trade, if it goes down as reported, is a defining trade for Antonetti.

It also shows a clear message that the front office believe 2011-2013 is their window of opportunity. With Choo, Hafner and AC all controlled thru 2013 I guess the feel now is their chance to make a mark.

As much talent as White and Pom have, I think you could make a solid arguement that they wouldn't be at their peak in those years.

It's bold, perhaps foolish.... one thing's for sure though..... it's definitely different!

Agreed. They HAVE to be right.

by **Adverb Harry** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:44 pm

How'd you like to be Drew Pomeranz right now? You know you've been traded, but you're part of the Cleveland organization until mid-August because you can't be officially dealt until one year into your professional career. That's got to be awkward.

by **TribeinLA** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:45 pm

Alex White's response. LOL.

by **trsteve1** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:46 pm

I like this trade better giving up Kipnis/Phelps and keeping one of Pomeranz/White.. BUT.. we need the hitting more, so hanging onto both bats in the hopes that one pans out makes sense..

Especially with the weak market in terms of bats out there..
Still, like the trade, just wish we could have hung on to Pomeranz somehow.. he seemed to be on a similar track as Strasburg (just without as much hoopla or as much domination.. but he still had been IMPRESSIVE)

by **FortheWin** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:47 pm

Sources are now saying the deal is NOT DONE

by **Dnthateonthepronk** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:50 pm

trsteve1 wrote:I like this trade better giving up Kipnis/Phelps and keeping one of Pomeranz/White.. BUT.. we need the hitting more, so hanging onto both bats in the hopes that one pans out makes sense..

Especially with the weak market in terms of bats out there..
Still, like the trade, just wish we could have hung on to Pomeranz somehow.. he seemed to be on a similar track as Strasburg (just without as much hoopla or as much domination.. but he still had been IMPRESSIVE)

thats why I went a little nuts that it was reported Kipnis was in the deal too.

by **idoctribefan** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:50 pm

FortheWin wrote:Sources are now saying the deal is NOT DONE

http://colorado.rockies.mlb.com/news/ar ... l&c_id=col

SAN DIEGO -- The Rockies have agreed to trade ace pitcher Ubaldo Jimenez, who has thrown the only no-hitter in club history and was the first Colorado pitcher to start an All-Star Game, to the Cleveland Indians for four prospects, although one -- pitching prospect Drew Pomeranz -- cannot become official until next month.

by **FortheWin** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:51 pm

http://twitter.com/#!/Kevin_Goldstein

by **Adverb Harry** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:51 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
trsteve1 wrote:I like this trade better giving up Kipnis/Phelps and keeping one of Pomeranz/White.. BUT.. we need the hitting more, so hanging onto both bats in the hopes that one pans out makes sense..

Especially with the weak market in terms of bats out there..
Still, like the trade, just wish we could have hung on to Pomeranz somehow.. he seemed to be on a similar track as Strasburg (just without as much hoopla or as much domination.. but he still had been IMPRESSIVE)

thats why I went a little nuts that it was reported Kipnis was in the deal too.

Me too. Initial reports were a lot worse.

by **Dnthateonthepronk** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:53 pm

FortheWin wrote:Sources are now saying the deal is NOT DONE

hopefully its because we are getting something back with Jiminez.....anything a bag of balls...hell maybe one of Car-Go's bats, that might help

by **TribeinLA** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:55 pm

We gave them 4 players. It'd be swell for them to give us even an A reliever.

Meanwhile, trade #1 has a chance to be a hero now.

by **Dnthateonthepronk** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:00 pm

Adverb Harry wrote:
Me too. Initial reports were a lot worse.

yeah Ive come down from the roof now

by **TribeinLA** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:00 pm

Twitter reports that Lex Luger getting on a plane in Houston headed to Cleveland.

Meh heh heh

by **Adverb Harry** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:06 pm

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
Adverb Harry wrote:
Me too. Initial reports were a lot worse.

yeah Ive come down from the roof now

I might still camp up here for a couple more days. :lmfao:

by **TribeinLA** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:09 pm

Ok, who we giving up for Lud?

by **Erie Warrior** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:09 pm

TribeinLA wrote:Twitter reports that Lex Luger getting on a plane in Houston headed to Cleveland.

Meh heh heh

Who?

by **Dellucci TailGator** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:15 pm

Jayson Stark reports that the Reds were offering Homer Bailey, Mike Leake and two position prospects. That's a pretty hefty haul, as well.

by **motherscratcher** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:17 pm

I'm sitting in my hotel room in charlston. I just heard about this trade 2 seconds ago.

1. My first impression is that it seem like a lot to give up, but I don't hate it. Kind of like it.

2. I can't wait to go back now and read this thread. I'm going to take my time because it is surely epic.

by **Dellucci TailGator** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:18 pm

Dellucci TailGator wrote:Jayson Stark reports that the Reds were offering Homer Bailey, Mike Leake and two position prospects. That's a pretty hefty haul, as well.

Kevin_Goldstein Kevin Goldstein
Source: Ubaldo deal 100% not done, teams still talking, start threw wrench into things.

I bet Antonetti was PISSED when they sent him out there.

by **Dellucci TailGator** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:21 pm

Rob Neyer's take:

"The Indians now own Jiménez's services through 2013, for the bargain-basement price of roughly $10 million. That's the sort of money even the Tribe can afford ... and if they decide next summer that even that's too much money, they can always flip Jiménez for some other team's prospects."

"The only real risks here are that Jiménez isn't good, or gets hurt. But if he's healthy, they're unlikely to come away losing on this transaction."

http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/7/30/2306299/ubaldo-jimenez-trade-indians-rockies-news

by **swerb** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:22 pm

Baseball America-Indians Top 10 2008 Prospects

1. Adam Miller, rhp
2. Chuck Lofgren, lhp
3. Beau Mills, 3b/1b
4. Wes Hodges, 3b
5. Aaron Laffey, lhp
6. Nick Weglarz, of
7. Jordan Brown, of
8. David Huff, lhp
9. Ben Francisco, of
10. Jensen Lewis, rhp

Nuff said.

by **motherscratcher** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:23 pm

Before I do that, my initial thoughts: I kind of assume that it would be unlikely for Pom and White to both pan out. It just usually doesn't work like that. So, if we throw away one of those guys, the other one has a ceiling of....

Wait for it....

ubaldo Jiminez. We would do backflips if one of those guys panned out like Jiminez.

sure, shit can happen, but you have to take your shots, I guess.

I was perfectly happy with them standing pat this year, but I don't hate this.

Oh, btw, I could give 2 shits about McBride and whoever the other numb nuts we traded is.

Pom and White for Jiminez. Not bad.

by **swerb** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:25 pm

Better chance Pomeranz or White is the Wal-Mart greeter in 2014 than it is one of them ever becomes what Ubaldo already is.

by **Dellucci TailGator** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:36 pm

Here's a thought: the need for this trade actually began back in 2008, when Fausto Carmona showed he wasn't going to be the ace the Indians hoped he would develop into.

One guy's lack of development can completely change the course of a franchise.

by **Dellucci TailGator** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:45 pm

Very good news via Hoynes' Twitter feed.

hoynsie paul hoynes
Ubaldo Jimenez must pass physical for deal to be OK'd by Indians.

by **skatingtripods** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:46 pm

Man, am I glad I wasn't online for this shitshow. In fact, I was in Akron hoping to see Pomeranz pitch. Got to watch the process develop right before my eyes, from Pomeranz warming up, to being scratched, to wandering around the dugout like he needed a steady IV of liquid Ritalin.

Baseball's a risky business. Can't sit here for 3 years and hope that Pomeranz and White develop into FOR starters when one is available and under contract for 2 more years, potentially 3. It's a risk you have to take when you have a window like the Indians have.

I like the trade. We kept our young offensive parts and traded from a position of relative strength based on the ages and contract statuses of the guys in our rotation and the depth guys in Columbus.

To be honest, the Indians have gone about this 100% the right way. They want medicals of Jimenez. They're giving up damaged goods in White. Really, there's a chance that this deal is Pomeranz for Jimenez. Given our situation, I make that deal 100 times out of 100.

by **FUDU** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:48 pm

I thought we needed a bat?

by **1Perry** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:51 pm

swerb wrote:Better chance Pomeranz or White is the Wal-Mart greeter in 2014 than it is one of them ever becomes what Ubaldo already is.

Yep. Great trade.

by **Adverb Harry** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:55 pm

Calmed down a bit from my initial shock (and the erroneous reports floating around on twitter and the Internet that Kipnis was involved too...I think anyone would admit, that would have been way too much), but these are my thoughts. (As if anyone actually cares, but I seem to have pissed some people off tonight by not being on board, so I thought I should elaborate.)

1) Yes, he's a good pitcher. The best we currently have.
2) He's cheap and affordable...definitely a plus.

However,

3) On the flip side, he's lost a couple miles per hour lately, isn't always lights out, and hasn't been the elite pitcher who started last year's All-Star game for a full season. Coupled with the fact that we couldn't give him a physical (just now hearing that could be changing), and it's risky. If he gets hurt, we now don't have a Pomeranz or even White waiting in the wings. This is our team going forward for the next couple seasons, so everything has to go right.
4) We have to get hot very quickly this season if we want to have any chance of turning it around. The offense has to step up, but unfortunately I think the key bats (Kipnis, Chiz, even Santana) need another year of seasoning. That only gives us a two-year window ('12-'13) with Jiminez. Not entirely convinced that by the end of 2013, Pomeranz + White is less valuable than Jiminez. Guess we get to find out now! The window of contention seriously narrows with this trade, so they've got to get their asses in gear now.

Not the nightmare trade that was initially reported (and to which more people than just me reacted accordingly to), and it has the potential to be to our benefit. But it has the potential to go south, too, if Jiminez doesn't live up to expectations or gets hurt in any way. When small market teams gamble with their farm system, they have to get it right. Let's hope they did.

by **Bayou Tribe** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:58 pm

I care as much about the 2014 Indians as I do about the 2011 Akron Aeros. It takes a set of nuts from the front office to be successful in baseball. Kudos to Antonetti, he is pulling the strings that you have to pull in order to give yourself a shot.

by **andrew6586** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:01 am

I too am not pissed about the trade anymore. It is h likely that both White and Pom turned out to be great bur I still wish we used those two guys to get a bat as well as Jimenez.

by **Adverb Harry** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:01 am

The physical definitely helps. I was extremely nervous about the fact that we had to take him based on scouting and medical records alone, and that the Rockies knew something we didn't. Still find it very odd they'd trade their ace with so much left on his contract, but now at least the Indians can inspect him for themselves before totally signing off on the deal and being sure he's not damaged goods in some way. If we hadn't, and his arm fell off three starts into his Indians career, that would have been a nightmare, and that was the majority of my negative stance. Still unsure of the long-term implications, but this eases some major concerns.

by **Adverb Harry** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:02 am

Just announced they got rid of O-Cab.

So, the night isn't a total loss. :nanner:

by **rebelwithoutaclue** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:03 am

Love the trade. 2+ years of Jimenez for two guys that will be lucky to scratch the surface of Jimenez' talent. Two guys that MIGHT become #2 starters for 2+ years of a Cy young caliber pitcher that sits at 95+; sign me up.

by **googleeph2** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:03 am

motherscratcher wrote:I'm sitting in my hotel room in charlston. I just heard about this trade 2 seconds ago.

1. My first impression is that it seem like a lot to give up, but I don't hate it. Kind of like it.

2. I can't wait to go back now and read this thread. I'm going to take my time because it is surely epic.

Just got done doing that. 'Epic' is a good word. Eye holding the voice of reason early on. I agree- I like the trade, for the reasons noted by a few here.
And, needing a bat is not a reason not to do this.

They are a contender, and the division is not good. Nice to see they are acting as such.

Also, ESPN's coverage a few minutes ago referred to the Indians controlling Jimenez for 3 seasons after this one.

by **Adverb Harry** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:04 am

andrew6586 wrote:I too am not pissed about the trade anymore. It is h likely that both White and Pom turned out to be great bur I still wish we used those two guys to get a bat as well as Jimenez.

That was part of my anger, as well. If Colorado is unloading players they don't see as part of the future, we should have gotten Wiggington for such a large haul of prospects. Don't see why that couldn't have happened.

by **pup** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:05 am

THEY TRADED JIMENEZ THIS YEAR BECAUSE THAT IS WHEN YOU CAN GET THE MOST IN RETURN FOR HIM. NOT SURE WHY THAT IS HARD TO COMPREHEND.

Congratulations Mr. Antonetti. Brass balls win.

by **rebelwithoutaclue** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:06 am

swerb wrote:Baseball America-Indians Top 10 2008 Prospects

1. Adam Miller, rhp
2. Chuck Lofgren, lhp
3. Beau Mills, 3b/1b
4. Wes Hodges, 3b
5. Aaron Laffey, lhp
6. Nick Weglarz, of
7. Jordan Brown, of
8. David Huff, lhp
9. Ben Francisco, of
10. Jensen Lewis, rhp

Nuff said.

That is such a sad list. Today that is Miller + Lofgren for Jimenez. Puts things into perspective.

by **phutatorius** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:06 am

Some perspective: we couldn't pull the trigger on Wright + Colon for Pedro back in '97. If we had, we'd have won multiple championships. You don't see pitching prospects figure it out until they're just short of arby-eligible — or for that matter, on the cusp of free agency. At least that's how it's worked here, and I don't think the Indians have been uncharacteristically slow in developing pitchers. And so all told we've had really 1.5, 2 years of CC pitching like an ace, barely a year of Colon as a stopper, 1.5 years of Cliffie at his best. Add in Fausto and his two-year sabbaticals/psychotic fugues, and you realize it's unlikely that White and Pomeranz were going to give us a 1-2 punch anytime soon.

That said, Ubaldo ain't Pedro. His first half of 2010 skews his stats dramatically. It's not like he's been consistently a #1 starter for a period of years. His splits for this year show he's been failing at Coors, but the Rockies' other starters have pitched just fine at home, and so we can't pin this on the humidors not working.

Yes — I like that we're buyers. I like that we're aggressive, and I like that I actually read some Yankee fan's tweet complaining that we're "in on" every player. (Life's a bitch, innit?)

I'm just not sure that Ubaldo helps us more than Al White this year. He's got 11 or 12 chances to make a difference; White would have been back with us soon and probably could have given 9-10 starts. Given the resurgence in pitching of late, Ubaldo doesn't have anything close to the kind of separation from the pack that a guy like Pedro did. He's not obviously a postseason mower, like a Halladay or a Clifton Phifer Lee. He might align better with "the window" than Pomeranz and White — yeah, sure. But he doesn't strike me as DOMINANT. He strikes me as a guy who CAN be dominant. There's a big difference there.

Right about now I've talked myself out of liking this deal, but then consider that if this were a Yankees/Red Sox/Phillies board and we'd just landed Jimenez for one of those teams (I added the Phillies to make the exercise a little more palatable), we'd be unqualifiedly over the moon about this deal. This is exactly what that sort of team does: live for now. I get that we don't necessarily have the luxury to trade away Justin Masterson for next to nothing and still play 20 games over .500, but sometimes it's fun to run with the teams that do. Hell, this trade has value just for the Schadenfreude alone: somewhere NYY and BOS talk radio is lighting up over this.

I dunno. I guess the short answer is, we'll see. I'm going to the Monday night game at Fenway — would love to see him start.

by **skatingtripods** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:07 am

The official Rockies Twitter just tweeted the trade.

No additional player with Jimenez. Have to imagine the OC deal was a precursor to some kind of UTIL IF move. Maybe Jamey Carroll!!

Edit: Or Donald just comes up.

by **Adverb Harry** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:09 am

pup wrote:THEY TRADED JIMENEZ THIS YEAR BECAUSE THAT IS WHEN YOU CAN GET THE MOST IN RETURN FOR HIM. NOT SURE WHY THAT IS HARD TO COMPREHEND.

Got that. I always did. I was just sceptical of any less savory motives, like trading him now before his arm fell off. Getting the physical as part of the deal changes that. That should have been insisted upon all along.

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