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Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:33 pm

Ubaldo Jimenez has been traded from the Rockies to the Indians for pitching prospects Drew Pomeranz and Alex White and first base prospect Matt McBride, according to the Denver Post's Troy Renck.
Ubaldo, 27, has registered a 4.20 ERA and 1.34 WHIP in 20 starts this season. Jimenez is under contract through 2014 at a reasonable rate. All three Indians prospects were scratched from Saturday's game for Double-A Akron. Pomeranz, a 2010 first-round pick and the Indians top prospect, is the prize of the deal. He had a 1.87 ERA and 95/32 K/BB ratio over 77 innings for High-A Kingston before his promotion earlier this month and a 2.57 ERA over three starts at Double-A. Pomeranz might be ready for the big leagues at some point during the 2012 season. White, selected 15th overall in 2009, had a 3.60 ERA and 13/9 K/BB ratio over 15 innings in the majors before he hit the disabled list with a finger injury. McBride is 26 and has just an .811 career OPS in 2,342 games.

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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:33 pm

bac5665 wrote:I have no problem getting Jimenez, but it's just shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic without a real bat in the lineup. We have no one right now and if we're getting Jimenez then we won't have the ability to get that bat. And we need that bat or the rest doesn't matter.


Again, this move is for the duration of the window. They are banking on Choo, Santana, Chiz and Kip making it happen. Next year and the year after are more what this deal is for than this year.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:33 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Yeah I think they have a ton of faith in Choo coming back, Santana continuing to develop, and Kip and Chiz next year.


Blind faith? Scary. I think I like it.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby Dellucci TailGator » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:33 pm

The Indians can't suddenly give up on Santana and Choo. Frankly, they can't really even give up on Sizemore. There's nobody else there to slot into the positions. Santana either becomes Victor Martinez or this franchise won't win in 2012 and 2013. Choo has to be the old Choo or they won't win. Hafner has to stay healthy or they won't win.

Such is life in this market.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:34 pm

That's what I mean by fucked if it's not the window. Because if those four guys don't develop then... well.... what do you have?
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby redneckofsc » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:34 pm

So since White and Pomeranz cant be traded, it is going to be McBride and two PTBNL?
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby TribeinLA » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:35 pm

This deal just might have fallen through. Why would he even still be at the ballpark in SD?
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:35 pm

redneckofsc wrote:So since White and Pomeranz cant be traded, it is going to be McBride and two PTBNL?


White can be traded.

You can trade guys on the DL.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:36 pm

That's why I'm not liking this trade. WAY too much has to go our way now. There's little room for error, and it shortens our window considerably. If Jiminez gets hurt, we're screwed.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:36 pm

Apparently the Indians want to see medical reports. NY Post (meh source) is claiming the Rockies refused to show them to the Yanks so they dropped out.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby FortheWin » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:37 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:
redneckofsc wrote:So since White and Pomeranz cant be traded, it is going to be McBride and two PTBNL?


White can be traded.

You can trade guys on the DL.


White isn't on the DL
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:37 pm

Adverb Harry wrote:That's why I'm not liking this trade. WAY too much has to go our way now. There's little room for error, and it shortens our window considerably. If Jiminez gets hurt, we're screwed.


And if all of those things don't go your way you are staring at 2014 w/ two pitching prospects you hope are #2 caliber starters, no sure fire ace and no lineup.

How this is better off I don't know.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:37 pm

FortheWin wrote:
dazindiansfanuk wrote:
redneckofsc wrote:So since White and Pomeranz cant be traded, it is going to be McBride and two PTBNL?


White can be traded.

You can trade guys on the DL.


White isn't on the DL


Yes he is.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby Dellucci TailGator » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:38 pm

TribeinLA wrote:This deal just might have fallen through. Why would he even still be at the ballpark in SD?


My theory is it puts some presure on the Indians to make the deal. The fans are primed for the move and even if they're against it the thought of getting a big catch and the having it wriggle off the hook is really bad PR for the TRibe.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:38 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:That's what I mean by fucked if it's not the window. Because if those four guys don't develop then... well.... what do you have?


So this really breaks down to Choo. They think Choo will provide enough offense to give the guys around him some good looks.

If they thought Choo was going to be just ok, they don't make this deal and in 3 years you potentially have 2 SPs and Kip and Chiz.

FTR White is the real deal, Pomz very well may be.

Risky, to say the least.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby FortheWin » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:39 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:
FortheWin wrote:
dazindiansfanuk wrote:
redneckofsc wrote:So since White and Pomeranz cant be traded, it is going to be McBride and two PTBNL?


White can be traded.

You can trade guys on the DL.


White isn't on the DL


Yes he is.


He had a rehab start tomorrow that he was scratched from.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:40 pm

Adverb Harry wrote:This guy better never even get so much as a freaking hangnail. This is way too risky to bet it all on one player.


This is the second time you've alluded to the risk.....you do realize that history shows us time and time again that the risk is with Colorado.

It's not young pitchers just developing - it's them developing without injury. Have you checked out young pitchers injury rates.

A guy, like Jiminez, who has already been thru several years of the major league workload without serious incident, is waaaay more likely to be healthy than Pom and White combined.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby NH Tribe Fan » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:41 pm

The price is high, but I like it.

Ubaldo is a stud pitcher NOW (and under team control for 2 1/2 years) White topped out with the most optimistic projections as a #2-3. Pomeranz is still a ways a way, but he could be the guy that makes this deal look bad in the future (That Kazmir trade from the Mets a few years ago for an aging vet is worst case, but Ubaldo isn't aging).

We may keep sinking like a rock this year. But have we lost anything to compete next year? Rookie pitchers usually take longer to develop than rookie hitters, so in the "window" of contention I'd rather have a stud ace, than inconsistent prospects. Finally down the road 2013 we can easily trade Ubaldo (barring injury) at the deadline and reload prospects.

Prospects are just that, and we have burned by so many in the past (Miller, Marte, LaPorta just to name a few recent ones that I'd rather have the sure thing.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby bac5665 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:41 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
bac5665 wrote:I have no problem getting Jimenez, but it's just shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic without a real bat in the lineup. We have no one right now and if we're getting Jimenez then we won't have the ability to get that bat. And we need that bat or the rest doesn't matter.


Again, this move is for the duration of the window. They are banking on Choo, Santana, Chiz and Kip making it happen. Next year and the year after are more what this deal is for than this year.


And I'm with you on that. I don't have any faith on anyone but Choo of those players making any progress. I hope they do. All I'm saying is that I'd take a power bat over a pitcher right now 10 times out of 10. If we couldn't do that, fine, but then I just don't think this trade will make any difference when it matters.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:42 pm

FortheWin wrote:
dazindiansfanuk wrote:
FortheWin wrote:
dazindiansfanuk wrote:
redneckofsc wrote:So since White and Pomeranz cant be traded, it is going to be McBride and two PTBNL?


White can be traded.

You can trade guys on the DL.


White isn't on the DL


Yes he is.


He had a rehab start tomorrow that he was scratched from.


So?

He's on the ML DL..... you can't have a rehab outing without being on the DL.

And his rehab outing was supposed to be tonight.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:43 pm

leadpipe wrote:
Adverb Harry wrote:This guy better never even get so much as a freaking hangnail. This is way too risky to bet it all on one player.


This is the second time you've alluded to the risk.....you do realize that history shows us time and time again that the risk is with Colorado.

It's not young pitchers just developing - it's them developing without injury. Have you checked out young pitchers injury rates.

A guy, like Jiminez, who has already been thru several years of the major league workload without serious incident, is waaaay more likely to be healthy than Pom and White combined.


I got that, and I know what you're saying. What I mean is that we can't afford for him to get hurt now. There's no room for that now. That's the risk I'm alluding to.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby Dellucci TailGator » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:43 pm

Developing aces in a small market organization is a cruel exercise in puppy training for seven years and then watching the fully-trained dog run away never to be seen again.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby FortheWin » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:44 pm

Rockies are refusing to let a team give a physical to Ubaldo.

Whats wrong with him?
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby Dellucci TailGator » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:45 pm

bac5665 wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:
bac5665 wrote:I have no problem getting Jimenez, but it's just shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic without a real bat in the lineup. We have no one right now and if we're getting Jimenez then we won't have the ability to get that bat. And we need that bat or the rest doesn't matter.


Again, this move is for the duration of the window. They are banking on Choo, Santana, Chiz and Kip making it happen. Next year and the year after are more what this deal is for than this year.


And I'm with you on that. I don't have any faith on anyone but Choo of those players making any progress. I hope they do. All I'm saying is that I'd take a power bat over a pitcher right now 10 times out of 10. If we couldn't do that, fine, but then I just don't think this trade will make any difference when it matters.


I'm the opposite. If they traded Pomeranz and White for a bat, I'd be the one sounding like a Southern Baptist End of the World preacher.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby bac5665 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:48 pm

Dellucci TailGator wrote:I'm the opposite. If they traded Pomeranz and White for a bat, I'd be the one sounding like a Southern Baptist End of the World preacher.


Really? After this season, I have faith in our pitching to get us there. I've seen enough to think that White could have helped us now and from what we're hearing Pom maybe next year. Masterson, CarCar and Tomlin seem like the core of a solid rotation.

On the other side of that, there is Choo. That's it. And Choo's having his worst season in years. We've been saying we'll have a good offense every year since 2007 and it's been worse and worse every year. I just have no faith at all left in our offense. None.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:49 pm

Jiminez is pitching w/ someone warming up in the BP in the 1st. WTF?
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby idoctribefan » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:49 pm

that rockies/padres game just started. ubaldo hasn't taken the mound yet but still listed as the starter on espn.com gamecast.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby idoctribefan » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:50 pm

and now he has taken the mound
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:50 pm

FortheWin wrote:Rockies are refusing to let a team give a physical to Ubaldo.

Whats wrong with him?


Another reason I'm not on board. If he's so young and affordable, why aren't they building around him? Hell, they can control him a year longer than we can. That's why this trade concerns me...I'm not at all convinced it's worth the risk.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby FortheWin » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:50 pm

Esmil Rogers warming up in the colorado BP though
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:52 pm

Adverb Harry wrote:
FortheWin wrote:Rockies are refusing to let a team give a physical to Ubaldo.

Whats wrong with him?


Another reason I'm not on board. If he's so young and affordable, why aren't they building around him? Hell, they can control him a year longer than we can. That's why this trade concerns me...I'm not at all convinced it's worth the risk.


They missed their shot after having it for a few years and are loading up for another run in a couple years.

Stop making shit up.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby Dellucci TailGator » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:57 pm

I think there are real reasons to be concerned with his loss in velocity and just why the Rockies are trading him.

I'm trusting that the Indians' front office has investigated this.

Once reports earlier this month leaked that they were shopping him, it makes it tough to keep a guy around. I'm not sure they really thought they were going to trade him in mid-July, but when someone offers Pomeranz and White, you listen.

If they make the trade and his arm blows up, I file it in the same folder as the 1996 Jack McDowell deal. It didn't work out but it was worth the chance taken. If Black Jack's arm holds up, the Indians have an ace to add to that tremendous offense. It didn't. I don't think John Hart regrets taking that chance.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:58 pm

Dellucci TailGator wrote:I think there are real reasons to be concerned with his loss in velocity and just why the Rockies are trading him.

I'm trusting that the Indians' front office has investigated this.


100% agree w/ this.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby idoctribefan » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:00 pm

ubaldo defacating all over the mound in san diego.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:00 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
Adverb Harry wrote:
FortheWin wrote:Rockies are refusing to let a team give a physical to Ubaldo.

Whats wrong with him?


Another reason I'm not on board. If he's so young and affordable, why aren't they building around him? Hell, they can control him a year longer than we can. That's why this trade concerns me...I'm not at all convinced it's worth the risk.


They missed their shot after having it for a few years and are loading up for another run in a couple years.

Stop making shit up.


They've also got Tulowitzki, Carlos Gonzalez, and others. A better offense than ours. Not like they're barren. Could very easily be back in it next year. Why give up your ace?

I'm not making "shit" up. Just citing major concerns.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:01 pm

Ubaldo pitching right now.... has walked 3 in the bottom of the 1st and already given up two runs on a 2-run 2B to future Indian (??) Ryan Ludwick
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby idoctribefan » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:01 pm

my bad it's in san diego
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby Dellucci TailGator » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:02 pm

idoctribefan wrote:ubaldo defacating all over the mound in Denver.


I do think it's a shitty thing the Rockies are doing to him right now. You pull the guy and if the deal doesn't get done you throw him tomorrow night. I can' imagine trying to pitch while wondering where you're going to be living tomorrow.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:02 pm

idoctribefan wrote:my bad it's in san diego


That's a shame, I've heard San Diego is nice this time of year.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:03 pm

dazindiansfanuk wrote:Ubaldo pitching right now.... has walked 3 in the bottom of the 1st and already given up two runs on a 2-run 2B to future Indian (??) Ryan Ludwick


According to Jon Heyman, it now appears the Rockies are getting a fourth player in the deal. Oh boy.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby Dellucci TailGator » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:05 pm

Adverb Harry wrote:
dazindiansfanuk wrote:Ubaldo pitching right now.... has walked 3 in the bottom of the 1st and already given up two runs on a 2-run 2B to future Indian (??) Ryan Ludwick


According to Jon Heyman, it now appears the Rockies are getting a fourth player in the deal. Oh boy.


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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:05 pm

Adverb Harry wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:
Adverb Harry wrote:
FortheWin wrote:Rockies are refusing to let a team give a physical to Ubaldo.

Whats wrong with him?


Another reason I'm not on board. If he's so young and affordable, why aren't they building around him? Hell, they can control him a year longer than we can. That's why this trade concerns me...I'm not at all convinced it's worth the risk.


They missed their shot after having it for a few years and are loading up for another run in a couple years.

Stop making shit up.


They've also got Tulowitzki, Carlos Gonzalez, and others. A better offense than ours. Not like they're barren. Could very easily be back in it next year. Why give up your ace?

I'm not making "shit" up. Just citing major concerns.


The rockies think otherwise as it has been reported by everyone and their mother every player on the roster not name Tulo or Gonzalez is available.

Stop making shit up.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby idoctribefan » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:09 pm

45 pitches in the first inning for ubaldo. Channeling his inner Carmona.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:12 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:
Adverb Harry wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:
Adverb Harry wrote:
FortheWin wrote:Rockies are refusing to let a team give a physical to Ubaldo.

Whats wrong with him?


Another reason I'm not on board. If he's so young and affordable, why aren't they building around him? Hell, they can control him a year longer than we can. That's why this trade concerns me...I'm not at all convinced it's worth the risk.


They missed their shot after having it for a few years and are loading up for another run in a couple years.

Stop making shit up.


They've also got Tulowitzki, Carlos Gonzalez, and others. A better offense than ours. Not like they're barren. Could very easily be back in it next year. Why give up your ace?

I'm not making "shit" up. Just citing major concerns.


The rockies think otherwise as it has been reported by everyone and their mother every player on the roster not name Tulo or Gonzalez is available.

Stop making shit up.


Yeah, and just as many people don't get why that's the case. If they're not available, why is their ace who they can control for three more years?

Stop jumping on everything I say. I'm not the only one who's not on board. Check some of the twitter feeds and you'll find plenty of baseball people questioning this, as well.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby Dellucci TailGator » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:13 pm

Whatever a Joe Gardner is, it's been added to the deal.

Also on twitter, reporter talked to Alex White in the player's parking lot:

@Isley23 Ryan
Alex white told me he thought it was a stupid move #Indians #tradedeadline #Ubaldo


It's got to be tough to be told you're the future of an organization and then be traded. Denver is a fantastic place to live. He'll get over it.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:15 pm

No, you are making shit up.

They had those two locked up and plan to build around them. Pitchers in this day and age don't lock themselves up early like that. It's why aces get dealt.

I don't care if you don't like it, stop making up bullshit reasons to not like it.
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:16 pm

Dellucci TailGator wrote:Whatever a Joe Gardner is, it's been added to the deal.

Fuck me sideways, now I'm pissed. Not Joe Gardner!
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby Mr. X » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:16 pm

TroyRenck Troy Renck, Rockies
Players are hugging Ubaldo... in dugout...
3 minutes ago
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Re: anotonetti is out of his mind

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:22 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:No, you are making shit up.

They had those two locked up and plan to build around them. Pitchers in this day and age don't lock themselves up early like that. It's why aces get dealt.

I don't care if you don't like it, stop making up bullshit reasons to not like it.


That's not making up a bullshit reason. They can control him for THREE more years. That's a long time. Longer than we're getting. I would be pissed if we'd had traded away CC three years early...so would everyone else. With the talent they've got, they could contend again next year, let alone through 2014. Just a very odd move for them, and it makes me suspicious.
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Re: Indians Trade For Ubaldo Jimenez

Unread postby dazindiansfanuk » Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:23 pm

Joe Garnder alone is no big deal.... he's probably at best a reliever down the road.

But Pom, White, McBride and Gardner is a helluva lot to give up.
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