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What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby Govbarney » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:17 pm

scott wrote:
Govbarney wrote:
scrambler wrote:Please do nothing at all.

Sell.

There isn't anything to sell. Plenty of relievers available out there. Tribe won't get value there.


Your probably right not much to sell. Anyone think there is any chance someone would be willing to deal for Hafner right now while he is hot...? It be a hell of a lot to take on Salary wise, but I have to imagine he is close to being at his most valuable right now.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:29 pm

As far as I'm concerned, Pronk can stay until his contract runs out. He's proven to be useful when healthy. I'm fine with him staying, especially since we wouldn't be getting true value for him anyway.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby TribeinLA » Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:07 pm

Pronk and Droobs are the only hitters we have on this team right now.

If we were "sellers", it's been pointed out too many times that we'd be selling players no one wants. Sure, someone would pick up Carmona for a 4-5 starter. We don't have any Pavanos or De Rosas on this team. The team we have is from "selling". If you want to sell a guy like R. Perez for a good prospect, fine. I think today proves, though, that we need to buy and not sell. We have gotten awesome effort from guys like Huff. We need 2 added sticks in the lineup. Either Crisp for a legit basestealer (sorry, Brantley is no Kenny Lofton) or a Ludwick.

We need a true table setter. Carrera is not ready, nor is he expected to be. Crisp would bring us a true leadoff man and we could put Brantley in the bottom of the order -- where we absolutely stink at the present. I was down on a Crisp deal last week, but the more I think about it the more it makes sense. Also, if we could shop La Porta and find a team that really thinks they can fix his golf swing, then we should go after Ianetta. If anyone thinks ole Lou is ready to play everyday at catcher, then we might as well return to the late 80's when Andy Allanson's .220 average was overlooked enough because of his above average defense. Still, that took a stick outta the order and not to mention we had Felix Fermin and two outfielders would play 20 yards behind the IF. Basically, Kearns and Hannahan and Uncle Cabrera and Buck transform into a giant Felix Fermin ala Devastator from Transformers. Marson should caddy for Carmona and/or Carrasco to settle both down. Also, is anyone at AAA ready to come up and play 1b? I know Buck and Sloth can play it, but is there a true 1b on the radar? If so, we could let Santana dh, play first, and catch a day or two out of a week. Just my novice .02.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:18 pm

Why do you keep thinking that Crisp is a true lead-off man?

I'm not trying to be difficult, but his OBP is .316. Yes, he is tied for 5th in the bigs with SB, but he's also stealing at a 75% clip which is barely tolerable. If he were stealing 70 bases, sure, but he's basically less of a table setter than Brantley is right now, which isn't saying much. Neither have OBP that a lead-off man should have.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby Symbolic47 » Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:25 pm

WiscTribeFan wrote:Why do you keep thinking that Crisp is a true lead-off man?

I'm not trying to be difficult, but his OBP is .316. Yes, he is tied for 5th in the bigs with SB, but he's also stealing at a 75% clip which is barely tolerable. If he were stealing 70 bases, sure, but he's basically less of a table setter than Brantley is right now, which isn't saying much. Neither have OBP that a lead-off man should have.


+1

Again unless we go big we need to sit on what we have. I said it a month ago, this team isnt going anywhere IF they do make the playoffs. We have so much youth and holes, it's a miracle we are where we are right now with all the injuries we have.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:16 pm

The Indians are strongly in the mix for Jimenez, according to Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports. The Indians have been working aggressively to upgrade their offense and rotation, Rosenthal writes. They're "thinking big in multiple deals."
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:47 pm

I'll take Bourn and Jimenez for Phelps + Soto + Smith/R. Perez + Carrera + PTBNL/cash.

Phelps has value to both teams as both could use a decent 2B prospect. Soto's a Single-A arm with quite a bit of upside, would suck to deal one of our two good LHP prospects, but price you pay. Smith/Perez have value to either bullpen. Carrera plays well as a National Leaguer for pinch running/double switches/bunting ability and his potential to grow in to a NL type player.

Put some decent talent on the PTBNL list. McAllister/Gomez, maybe Barnes/Graham.

Makes us a lot better for 2012 lineup-wise with a true table setter and base stealer and makes us a lot better in the rotation for the foreseeable future to have a quality MOR/fringe FOR starter like Ubaldo.

Maybe you could even convince COL or HOU to take a shot on LaPorta. Doubtful, but maybe.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby Pressrunnr » Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:05 pm

Oh, I'm sure LaPorta would be pretty easy to move ... but as a throw-in. Heck, if he were on another team, I'd take him, but not as the central part of a deal. As a low-risk, high-reward type, he could be used as a piece of a deal. Normally I'd consider that "selling low" but in this case, it could help.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby TribeinLA » Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:13 pm

Wisc, he was 32 of 35 last year. He's not stealing at that clip now, but who do we have that even has 20 SB's? Choo might have 16-20 if he was healthy.

Ok, let's take away that he may not be a leadoff guy (he wasn't in Cleveland). Could he not help this team no matter where he's hitting? If I had a choice of 20 guys to pick from, he wouldn't sniff the list of trade prospects, but he's affordable. He costs abouut a million more than David Dellucci when we signed him. He plays great defense, steals bases, hits for a decent average, may or may not have a little pop in that bat, and he's played on winning teams and is a VETERAN presence. That last point is so key on this team. We don't have that and we've almost accepted the fact that we don't deserve or cannot afford a vet. Again, he's not on my Christmas list, but it's evident that we can only afford so much. It looks like Pence isn't going anywhere and the Braves are looking harder than us at Ludwick. What else is available...that is, if you're PRO obtaining a corner OF.

Sizemore being out at the same time as Choo is the only reason I want a Crisp-type trade. If Sizemore were healthy, I wouldn't worry. If Choo and Sizemore were healthy, I'd consider trading Sizemore to a contender for some prospects. BUT, how many other teams would not do a thing when they've been in first place 90 percent of the season and have a 4 horse race going with 3 teams who are on the up and up? The Pirates, who I believe are a bigger sham than us, are going to be buyers. Why would we want to play out the rest of the season with what we have? Let's take away the 30-15 start and we're 22-35. That's almost exactly where we were through 47 games in '10. Where's the improvement? Take away our 7-2 record over KC and we're below .500. We have surprising marks against Det and RedSox, but are 1-4 in our last 5 vs. both. We were 6-0 vs. both in April/May. Meanwhile, Texas, Chicago, Minnesota, and LAA have owned us. If we were actually improving with the team we have now compared to last year, it'd be okay. We're not improving, though, and we have Carlos Santana for a full season this year. We've had Sizemore for over half a season. We've lost Choo. No matter who vs. who, we're playing '10 Indians ball since late May.

The answer is to make a move. It may not be a totally smart move, but ket the fans know you are caring and wanting to do what makes THEM happy. Without the fans, the Indians are nothing. If Cleveland finishes in 4th place and makes no moves, the fans will once again turn their backs. It will be a similar snub when we parted with Thome in '02, which was met with so much disapproval because of not being able to resign Manny in '00. There is no superstar we're getting rid of this time, but the frustration would equal those moves. We make a move and it pays off? You're going to see a WILD Progressive in September (and hopefully October).

I realize I have rambled long enough, but I have to leave it with this thought. WHy does it seem that Jimenez is the main target we're after, with Koroda being the 2nd? I'd love an arm, but Jesus, it's certainly not the fault of this staff and there's not a lot more they can do. Hell, Huff could have won that game today even if a no-hitter was thrown. Santana proves again why he's not a good thinking catcher (don't get up, Carlos. The IF's were not covering). I just don't see where all of the Ubaldo need is coming from for us. He's losing zip on his fastball, too. If we can power up and get him and 1-2 bats, then hooray...but I do not think that's possible for a team like us. I'll argue til I am blue in the face and I may not want the guys who statistically have what we need. I just want Crisp or the like because we need a lineup shift. Let Brantley hit in the bottom 3rd of the lineup. Hell, let Crisp hit there, Wiscy and let Brantley lead off. We've been atrocious...worse than the Brousard/Boone/Blake year when we grounded into more DP's than anyone. Anyway, get us in a short series with Masterson, Tomlin, Carmona, Carrasco, and Masterson2 and we've got a chance as long as we have a formidable 3-4-5 and a presence at the bottom of the order. Right now, we don't have either.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby Pressrunnr » Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:23 pm

realize I have rambled long enough, but I have to leave it with this thought. WHy does it seem that Jimenez is the main target we're after, with Koroda being the 2nd? I'd love an arm, but Jesus, it's certainly not the fault of this staff and there's not a lot more they can do. Hell, Huff could have won that game today even if a no-hitter was thrown.


Pete Franklin must be smiling from his grave. Offense sucks, team gets no-hit. Response: Get more pitching. Pitching pitching pitching. And he's right. Jimenez would be more a long-term acquisition than addressing immediate needs. He's the guy you give up your top prospects for. Guys like Crisp, Ludwick, whoever, sure they'd help this year, but I suspect you'll be able to pick them or players like them up for a song at the deadline, similar to the way they got Segui and Cordero in 2000.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby The Math God » Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:42 pm

Now that Toronto has traded for Colby Rasmus, I would like to pick up Rajai Davis from the Blue Jays?

He is going to lose his CF job to Rasmus.

He is signed for 2011 ($2,500,000)and 2012 ($2,750,000)with a team option for 2013 ($500,000). He can be a free agent in 2014.

He bats and throws right handed.

He is having an awful year, only hitting .238, but when he was in Oakland hit .305 in 2009 with 41 steals and .284 last year with 50 steals. He will not provide a lot of power, but can give us some speed.

He can hold CF for the rest of the season and Grady and Choo can split RF until they get healthy. Allows Brantley to stay in LF.

The change of scenery might do him good.

Since we would be able to control him for a time, he would cost more than a 2-month rental, but he is a bit better than Upton.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:05 pm

Oh man, I'm getting a little nervous here with the countdown to the deadline. Hopefully it's unfounded, but I'm not thrilled with the prospect of dumping probably our top 2-3 prospects minimum for someone like Jiminez. He's a great pitcher to build around, yes, but not at the cost of sacrificing so much of our future. We trade guys like Pomeranz, Chisenhall, Kipnis, etc, there won't be any building...what we've got now WILL be our team going forward.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby Dellucci TailGator » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:56 pm

1. Jimenez is the out of the box thinking I've wanted. Don't settle for the obvious. Get creative, think big. Jimenez is a long-term fix and still helps this season, if they can swing it.

2. Also, what if Kipnis' call up wasn't about improving the offense, but instead showcasing him for scouts against ML pitching?

3. I'd love Antonetti to be able to dump Carmona's remaining salary as a addition to a big deal like that, too. get a AA prospect thrown in for him, perhaps.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:54 am

Adverb Harry wrote:Oh man, I'm getting a little nervous here with the countdown to the deadline. Hopefully it's unfounded, but I'm not thrilled with the prospect of dumping probably our top 2-3 prospects minimum for someone like Jiminez. He's a great pitcher to build around, yes, but not at the cost of sacrificing so much of our future. We trade guys like Pomeranz, Chisenhall, Kipnis, etc, there won't be any building...what we've got now WILL be our team going forward.



I think if any of those guys would go it would be Kipnis, who I would trade in a heart beat for Ubaldo Jimenez because starting pitching is far more valuable and we have at least 2 guys Phelps and Donald who could play 2nd base going forward. However I would prefer they trade Phelps over Kipnis. But Jiminez is the only guy I would include Kinis for.

However to get Ubaldo you are probably looking at a package like either of these two Depending on which of our top infield prospects headlines the deal:

1. Kipnis, Carmona, Joe Smith or Raffy Perez, Jeamar Gomez, Nick Weglarz, then a lower level high upside prospect.

2. Phelps, then either one or both of Hagadone & Chen Lee, Tomlin and or Carmona, Jeanmar Gomez, and another prospect.


Of course you could also open up the deal to include Ianetta, in which case Laporta would likely be headed over as well. Basically those two are in the same boat. highly touted prospects who have yet to really live up to their potential.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby pup » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:42 am

I can't wait until Sunday at 4:01.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:16 am

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:However to get Ubaldo you are probably looking at a package like either of these two Depending on which of our top infield prospects headlines the deal:

1. Kipnis, Carmona, Joe Smith or Raffy Perez, Jeamar Gomez, Nick Weglarz, then a lower level high upside prospect.

2. Phelps, then either one or both of Hagadone & Chen Lee, Tomlin and or Carmona, Jeanmar Gomez, and another prospect.


The Rockies want three high-end players for Jiminez, not one and a collection of second-tier prospects. Without a high-end arm like Pomeranz in the deal, there's no way the Rocks make a move like this. It would take a package of Kipnis and Pomeranz, most likely to get that train moving.

The Tribe's management would have to believe that Pomeranz would not be as good as Jiminez over the next few seasons. If he takes a path similar to White, he could end up in Cleveland at some point next year.

Tough call all around. I don't see it happening, though.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:21 am

pup wrote:I can't wait until Sunday at 4:01.



Whats wrong with trading for an impact starting pitcher who is under team control for 3 more years at a reasonable salary, if the cost isnt prohibitive? I dont think you can bank on being competitive next year. Im not saying sell the farm becuase realistically their shot at winning a world series is very very low, but they need to do something in order to try to captitalize and take the chance while they have it now (again as long as it isnt selling the farm) because you never know when the chance will pop up again. Yeah they are supposed to compete nex year but guess what, the central isnt getting worse next year, its getting better.

However it doesnt matter, Antonetti and or the Dolans cant win. If they trade for players people evidently will be complaining because they traded away prospects and if they dont make a move they will be crucified. :gah:
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:34 am

WiscTribeFan wrote:
Dnthateonthepronk wrote:However to get Ubaldo you are probably looking at a package like either of these two Depending on which of our top infield prospects headlines the deal:

1. Kipnis, Carmona, Joe Smith or Raffy Perez, Jeamar Gomez, Nick Weglarz, then a lower level high upside prospect.

2. Phelps, then either one or both of Hagadone & Chen Lee, Tomlin and or Carmona, Jeanmar Gomez, and another prospect.


The Rockies want three high-end players for Jiminez, not one and a collection of second-tier prospects. Without a high-end arm like Pomeranz in the deal, there's no way the Rocks make a move like this. It would take a package of Kipnis and Pomeranz, most likely to get that train moving.

The Tribe's management would have to believe that Pomeranz would not be as good as Jiminez over the next few seasons. If he takes a path similar to White, he could end up in Cleveland at some point next year.

Tough call all around. I don't see it happening, though.



I dont think it would have to take both Kipnis and Pomerenz of course they would want those two though. These deals are comparitive to what they are asking for from the Reds. Although I wouldnt be surprised if tehy wanted both Phelps and Kipnis either. Such as one centered around Billy Hamilton ( High upside A prospect) Devin Mosoraco Top level Catcher ( Main centerpiece ) and two pictehrs one from MLB such as Travis Wood or Homer Bailey( Who Tomlin and Carmona compare to respectively) and then another arm.


Prospects Mesoraco, Hamilton Untouchable For Reds
By Tim Dierkes [July 27 at 8:30am CST]
Yesterday, Reds GM Walt Jocketty explained to John Fay of the Cincinnati Enquirer, "There are guys I will not trade. I will not give you names. But they’re are certainly guys I will not trade." Today Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports has two of those prospects' names: catcher Devin Mesoraco, and shortstop Billy Hamilton (Twitter link).

Fay is under the reasonable belief that Aroldis Chapman is also off-limits. Would the Reds still have enough to pull off a deal for Ubaldo Jimenez? They could assemble an offer around prospects Yonder Alonso and Yasmani Grandal, plus pitchers Homer Bailey and Travis Wood.

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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby pup » Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:27 am

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
pup wrote:I can't wait until Sunday at 4:01.



Whats wrong with trading for an impact starting pitcher who is under team control for 3 more years at a reasonable salary, if the cost isnt prohibitive? I dont think you can bank on being competitive next year. Im not saying sell the farm becuase realistically their shot at winning a world series is very very low, but they need to do something in order to try to captitalize and take the chance while they have it now (again as long as it isnt selling the farm) because you never know when the chance will pop up again. Yeah they are supposed to compete nex year but guess what, the central isnt getting worse next year, its getting better.

However it doesnt matter, Antonetti and or the Dolans cant win. If they trade for players people evidently will be complaining because they traded away prospects and if they dont make a move they will be crucified. :gah:


Shit, I got no problem with them getting Ubaldo.

The 4:01 is about the time I can stop reading we are trading Cord Phelps to get Ubaldo Jimenez. And I can stop reading the people that have hopes that all of a sudden this team is going to make moves to actually improve the team.

They will just miss on getting any number of good players. Book it. Everyone can take solace in the fact they are trying. :lmfao:
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:01 am

As per MBLTradeRumors.com

The Tigers contacted the Rockies Thursday to discuss possible deals, according to Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports. Colorado is also discussing Jimenez with the Yankees, Red Sox, Reds and Indians, according to FOX. Names of interest to the Rockies: Kyle Weiland and Will Middlebrooks of the Red Sox, Ivan Nova, Dellin Betances, and Jesus Montero of the Yankees, Jacob Turner of the Tigers, Yonder Alonso and a Major League starting pitcher from the Reds, and Drew Pomeranz of the Indians.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:05 am

pup wrote:The 4:01 is about the time I can stop reading we are trading Cord Phelps to get Ubaldo Jimenez. And I can stop reading the people that have hopes that all of a sudden this team is going to make moves to actually improve the team.


And at 4:01 we can stop seeing your postings about trading Fausto Carmona for anything of value, when you know full well he's not worth squat right now, save to us hoping he can string together a few more good outings before he goes off the rails again.

He's a #5 starter that's going to make $7M next year. I can't believe teams aren't beating down our door for him. :lmfao:
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:16 am

WiscTribeFan wrote:As per MBLTradeRumors.com

The Tigers contacted the Rockies Thursday to discuss possible deals, according to Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports. Colorado is also discussing Jimenez with the Yankees, Red Sox, Reds and Indians, according to FOX. Names of interest to the Rockies: Kyle Weiland and Will Middlebrooks of the Red Sox, Ivan Nova, Dellin Betances, and Jesus Montero of the Yankees, Jacob Turner of the Tigers, Yonder Alonso and a Major League starting pitcher from the Reds, and Drew Pomeranz of the Indians.



Its Interest, never said they didnt have interest in Pomeranz but I dont see anything about him absolutley having to be included. You could do a deal without him if none of the other teams blink and give in. Fact is if nobody else meets their price and if they still feel so inclined to deal him, which for some reason they seem too, then the price would come down a little and a deal around Kipnis and or Phelps would be realistic.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:36 am

They won't blink. With his contract, they don't have to. A deal centered around Kipnis isn't enough. I think they'd hold pat and see what happens in the off season. They're in a great position not to have to do anything.

Here's something that made me chuckle from MLBRumors.com

The Tigers and Indians have talked to the Orioles about Guthrie, Zrebiec confirms.

There's true irony that we're kicking the tires on Guthrie.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:09 am

Any Jimenez deal with the Tigers would "almost certainly" include Jacob Turner and/or Rick Porcello, according to Danny Knobler of CBSSports.com (on Twitter).

Turner was the #11 prospect in BA's revised top 50, three higher than Pomeranz.

If it's both of them, that's a pretty steep price, given that Porcello's only 22.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby Adverb Harry » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:26 am

Put me firmly in the anti-Jiminez camp, at least at the current insane asking price. I wouldn't give up any of our big 4 prospects for a guy who's been only decent for the past 12 months and has an ERA over 4.00 so far this season. Add that to the fact that the Rockies seem a little too interested in trading a pitcher they have under team control with a very friendly contract through 2014, and something just doesn't feel right.

He's a good pitcher and I wouldn't be against having him, but not at the cost of so much of our future. Just too risky. We've waited this long for a productive, home-grown farm system, and I'd hate to see that squandered so early into "the plan," especially considering this wasn't supposed to even be a contending year, anyway. (And if you throw out our hot April, it's not a contending year, anyway.)
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby redneckofsc » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:31 am

WiscTribeFan wrote:They won't blink. With his contract, they don't have to. A deal centered around Kipnis isn't enough. I think they'd hold pat and see what happens in the off season. They're in a great position not to have to do anything.

Here's something that made me chuckle from MLBRumors.com

The Tigers and Indians have talked to the Orioles about Guthrie, Zrebiec confirms.

There's true irony that we're kicking the tires on Guthrie.



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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:32 am

Ubaldo Jimenez Rumors: Friday
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [July 29 at 8:52am CST]
The Tigers contacted the Rockies about Ubaldo Jimenez yesterday and they're far from the only team in the mix. The Yankees, Red Sox, Reds and Indians are still involved and the Rockies are eyeing each team's top prospects in possible deals. Colorado's asking price hasn't dropped, so it will still take multiple top young players to pry the right-hander away. Here are the latest rumors, with the most recent updates up top:

•Any Jimenez deal with the Tigers would "almost certainly" include Jacob Turner and/or Rick Porcello, according to Danny Knobler of CBSSports.com (on Twitter).
•Rival teams expect to know the Rockies’ true intentions regarding Jimenez tomorrow, according to ESPN.com’s Buster Olney. If the sky-high asking price drops in the next day and a half, other teams will see the price reduction as a signal that Colorado intends to move Jimenez.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:33 am

WiscTribeFan wrote:They won't blink. With his contract, they don't have to. A deal centered around Kipnis isn't enough. I think they'd hold pat and see what happens in the off season. They're in a great position not to have to do anything.

Here's something that made me chuckle from MLBRumors.com

The Tigers and Indians have talked to the Orioles about Guthrie, Zrebiec confirms.

There's true irony that we're kicking the tires on Guthrie.



:lmfao:
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:23 am

Dnthateonthepronk wrote:
WiscTribeFan wrote:As per MBLTradeRumors.com

The Tigers contacted the Rockies Thursday to discuss possible deals, according to Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi of FOX Sports. Colorado is also discussing Jimenez with the Yankees, Red Sox, Reds and Indians, according to FOX. Names of interest to the Rockies: Kyle Weiland and Will Middlebrooks of the Red Sox, Ivan Nova, Dellin Betances, and Jesus Montero of the Yankees, Jacob Turner of the Tigers, Yonder Alonso and a Major League starting pitcher from the Reds, and Drew Pomeranz of the Indians.



Its Interest, never said they didnt have interest in Pomeranz but I dont see anything about him absolutley having to be included. You could do a deal without him if none of the other teams blink and give in. Fact is if nobody else meets their price and if they still feel so inclined to deal him, which for some reason they seem too, then the price would come down a little and a deal around Kipnis and or Phelps would be realistic.



The reported price of Jimenez for the Yankees is three of their top prospects: Montero, Banuelos, Betances or two of those guys plus Ivan Nova i.e. a ML starting pitcher. You are delusional if you think the Indians are getting Jimenez without Pomeranz. Minimum it would take would be Pomeranz/Kipnis + a major league arm (Tomlin, Carrasco) + another one or two second tier prospects.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:42 am

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:

The reported price of Jimenez for the Yankees is three of their top prospects: Montero, Banuelos, Betances or two of those guys plus Ivan Nova i.e. a ML starting pitcher. You are delusional if you think the Indians are getting Jimenez without Pomeranz. Minimum it would take would be Pomeranz/Kipnis + a major league arm (Tomlin, Carrasco) + another one or two second tier prospects.



Thast what the Rockies want, doesnt mean its what they will get. They want/have interest in top prospects from each team. Im talking if and when the price comes down( if they are truly intent on trading him then the price will come down) unless somebody blinks and then you wouldnt have to include Pomeranz in a deal.

Im also sure the only reason they are asking for all those players from the Skankees is that the Rockies are hoping that Cashman feels pressure to make a splashy move and is hoping to Trade Rape them. I really dont think they realistically think they will recieve two blue chip prospects plus more for Ubaldo, but if they do, good for them.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby jerryroche » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:44 am

Law of supply and demand. Jiminez is much in demand -- by as many as five playoff contenders, including some heavy hitters. Asking price will be...

TOO MUCH.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:57 am

jerryroche wrote:Law of supply and demand. Jiminez is much in demand -- by as many as five playoff contenders, including some heavy hitters. Asking price will be...

TOO MUCH.



I wouldnt be surprised if somebody gives up that much, (all it takes is one desperate GM. ) Unless for some reason you have certain players that other GMs truly covet but dont seem to be too high on other's lists.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:12 pm

Ubaldo Jimenez Rumors: Friday
By Ben Nicholson-Smith [July 29 at 11:08am CST]
The Tigers contacted the Rockies about Ubaldo Jimenez yesterday and they're far from the only team in the mix. The Yankees, Red Sox, Reds and Indians are still involved and the Rockies are eyeing each team's top prospects in possible deals. Colorado's asking price hasn't dropped, so it will still take multiple top young players to pry the right-hander away. Here are the latest rumors, with the most recent updates up top:

•Joel Sherman of the New York Post says that the Yankees would only package Jesus Montero and Dellin Betances in the same deal in exchange for a sure thing, and they don't view Jimenez as a sure thing.
•Joel Sherman of the New York Post hears that talks between the Yankees and Rockies have not gone well (Twitter link).
•Any Jimenez deal with the Tigers would "almost certainly" include Jacob Turner and/or Rick Porcello, according to Danny Knobler of CBSSports.com (on Twitter).
•Rival teams expect to know the Rockies’ true intentions regarding Jimenez tomorrow, according to ESPN.com’s Buster Olney. If the sky-high asking price drops in the next day and a half, other teams will see the price reduction as a signal that Colorado intends to move Jimenez.



This is from Sherman:
That is why I could see the Yankees offering a package of something akin to Montero, Hector Noesi and Corban Joseph for Jimenez and waiting to see if the Rockies truly honor their public stance that they will not trade their ace without getting a blow-away return. Or does Colorado secretly know that near the deadline they will just take the best package available because they are committed to moving Jimenez?
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/yankees/ ... z1TVmxe5ra


If you go to baseball America just for an example, not saying that they are the foremost source of information, I am just using their rankings for arguments sake.

Montero is #1
Noesi is # 7


and Corbin is in the top 20

Comapre that to the Indians list:

Chisenhall is # 1

Lavon Washington is # 7

and then we will just go with Joe Gardener


I dont see as big a differece between Kipnis and Chisenhall So I can see if the price comes down Kipnis headlining a deal as long as we offer a better third player than the other teams. Yes I am basing this off a journalist who might have no idea what is actually transpiring but Im not the only one who thinsk its possible to get Jimenez without giving up a blue chip pitcher. tehn again we are probably both Idiots :dingle:
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:45 pm

Solid STO fail right here:

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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby pup » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:57 pm

WiscTribeFan wrote:
pup wrote:The 4:01 is about the time I can stop reading we are trading Cord Phelps to get Ubaldo Jimenez. And I can stop reading the people that have hopes that all of a sudden this team is going to make moves to actually improve the team.


And at 4:01 we can stop seeing your postings about trading Fausto Carmona for anything of value, when you know full well he's not worth squat right now, save to us hoping he can string together a few more good outings before he goes off the rails again.

He's a #5 starter that's going to make $7M next year. I can't believe teams aren't beating down our door for him. :lmfao:


Fausto is the third piece in the deals I have mentioned. A RH reliever with an ERA < 1, a LH reliever than can get RHers out and a #5 starter who has the stuff to be successful but not the execution at this point. If you don't think multiple pitching coaches look at his stuff and think "I can get him to harness that, and then we just got a #3 starter" you are nuts.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:02 pm

If you go to baseball America just for an example, not saying that they are the foremost source of information, I am just using their rankings for arguments sake.

Montero is #1
Noesi is # 7


and Corbin is in the top 20

Comapre that to the Indians list:

Chisenhall is # 1

Lavon Washington is # 7

and then we will just go with Joe Gardener


I dont see as big a differece between Kipnis and Chisenhall So I can see if the price comes down Kipnis headlining a deal as long as we offer a better third player than the other teams. Yes I am basing this off a journalist who might have no idea what is actually transpiring but Im not the only one who thinsk its possible to get Jimenez without giving up a blue chip pitcher. tehn again we are probably both Idiots :dingle:



That's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is overall rankings and not organization rankings because every team has a #1 overall prospect and they aren't all equal. Per KLaw rankings, Montero was the 4th best prospect coming into the season, Chisenall was 39 and Kipnis was 56. That's a pretty big difference and one the Rockies are unlikely to overlook when comparing offers. Not that they will look at KLaw ranking or Baseball America but the rankings tend to pretty consistently have Montero in the top 10 and Chisenhall just inside the top 50.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby TribeinLA » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:54 pm

Can someone tell me which would be more beneficial of Upton, Crisp, or Ludwick if we added a RH bat. What would be the best for cost, production, long-term, etc.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:01 pm

TribeinLA wrote:Can someone tell me which would be more beneficial of Upton, Crisp, or Ludwick if we added a RH bat. What would be the best for cost, production, long-term, etc.


Quite frankly, none of them are all that beneficial in my mind. Upton's under control for a few years, but he's a windmill and seems to be a bit of a whining baby when it comes to nagging injuries. He's the most athletic and best player defensively. He's an upgrade to Carrera, but I'm not high on him.

I'd rather have Trevor Crowe back off the DL than Crisp.

Ludwick might be a bit of an impact and an upgrade to Kearns. If he can be had for a mid-level prospect, I do it. If they want more, I pass. They'll come to their senses by Sunday if they don't get what they're asking. Ludwick's the most immediate help.

Can't say I'm enamored with any of the RH bats available right now at a decent price. Houston's got an astronomical price for Pence.

I'm still holding out hope we find a way to get Michael Bourn, though he's another left handed bat. Haven't heard much on him lately.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby Dellucci TailGator » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:16 pm

BPro has this team winning 79 games. within margin of error is .500. I think 87 wins takes the division.

So you're trying to find four or five extra wins to give youself a legitimate chance. Fukudome means probably one extra win. Ludwick would be almost an extra win. They're still a few wins short. But every one you can improve, you're closer to the front in case Detroit stumbles.

The goal is to give yourself a shot while keeping the cabinet stocked for next year. Jimenez would do both, but I'm fine with a couple bats at little cost and crossing the fingers for a favorable bounce.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby WiscTribeFan » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:21 pm

pup wrote:Fausto is the third piece in the deals I have mentioned. A RH reliever with an ERA < 1, a LH reliever than can get RHers out and a #5 starter who has the stuff to be successful but not the execution at this point. If you don't think multiple pitching coaches look at his stuff and think "I can get him to harness that, and then we just got a #3 starter" you are nuts.


This is the same logic that gamblers use when they lay down their last $100 bucks. This is the time I'm sure I'm GONNA WIN!

Heroin addicts call it 'chasing the high'. We've been chasing the Carmona high since 2007 and we've never quite gotta back to that level of comfortably numb. Now, like heroin, it just keeps costing us more and more money to have less satisfaction.

There have been countless pitchers throughout history with great 'stuff' that have never been able to put it all together, or put it together for only one season and never quite get it back. Fausto Carmona is management's worst nightmare. Talent to be a number one, but either lacking something mentally or physically to be able to do it on a regular basis. He's had a few different pitching coaches over the years and not one of the has been able to turn him into a guy that you can count on to win a game. You just never know which Fausto's gonna show up, and that's the reason no-one is going to give up much for him, especially with his salary increases.

No-one is going to make him the centerpiece of a deal, and St. Louis certainly would not have taken him and two solid middle relievers for Rasmus.

If you don't believe that, YOU are nuts.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:24 pm

Dellucci TailGator wrote:The goal is to give yourself a shot while keeping the cabinet stocked for next year. Jimenez would do both, but I'm fine with a couple bats at little cost and crossing the fingers for a favorable bounce.


Pitching's not the problem. Bats are at a premium, though.

I want a fighting chance, that's all. I'm content with the pitching we have. You've got three good shots to win every five days. We win 3 of every last 5, we win 88 games (36/60). Masterson looks like an ace. Tomlin's good more often than bad. Carrasco/Huff are 50/50 props both, and Carmona's the wild card.

Get bats. 3 runs or fewer in 46 games. 5 or more and we're 36-8.


It's a seriously flawed division. Despite our offensive problems, I'd say we have the fewest flaws. No real bullpen issues. Starting rotation is near the top of the division. Get bats.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby Dellucci TailGator » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:25 pm

buster Olney Tweet:
“COL in a tough place on Jimenez. If they don't lower asking price, hard to make a deal. If they do, question will be: What's wrong with him?”
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby Dellucci TailGator » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:29 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
Dellucci TailGator wrote:The goal is to give yourself a shot while keeping the cabinet stocked for next year. Jimenez would do both, but I'm fine with a couple bats at little cost and crossing the fingers for a favorable bounce.


Pitching's not the problem. Bats are at a premium, though.

I want a fighting chance, that's all. I'm content with the pitching we have. You've got three good shots to win every five days. We win 3 of every last 5, we win 88 games (36/60). Masterson looks like an ace. Tomlin's good more often than bad. Carrasco/Huff are 50/50 props both, and Carmona's the wild card.

Get bats. 3 runs or fewer in 46 games. 5 or more and we're 36-8.


It's a seriously flawed division. Despite our offensive problems, I'd say we have the fewest flaws. No real bullpen issues. Starting rotation is near the top of the division. Get bats.


I don't look at it from a problem standpoint. You find extra wins wherever you can get them. The pitching is good, but if you replace David Huff with Jimenez, this team is going to win two or three extra games this season. Ideally you fix your problems at the deadline, but when there is no obvious, viable solution (i.e.no legit RH sticks available), you think outside the box to get it done. Jimenez is just that kind of thinking.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby skatingtripods » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:33 pm

Dellucci TailGator wrote:I don't look at it from a problem standpoint. You find extra wins wherever you can get them. The pitching is good, but if you replace David Huff with Jimenez, this team is going to win two or three extra games this season. Ideally you fix your problems at the deadline, but when there is no obvious, viable solution (i.e.no legit RH sticks available), you think outside the box to get it done. Jimenez is just that kind of thinking.


Valid. I don't disagree.

But bats help all the pitchers whereas replacing Huff with Jimenez helps us once every 5 days. Obviously, Jimenez is better than Huff.

Does adding two bats for the entire staff add more wins than replacing Jimenez with Huff? That's really the question at hand, I guess.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby pup » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:42 pm

TribeinLA wrote:Can someone tell me which would be more beneficial of Upton, Crisp, or Ludwick if we added a RH bat. What would be the best for cost, production, long-term, etc.


Myself, I am willing to take a chance on a skill set like Upton's. So he is #1 on that list by a wide margin.

I could handle Ludwick, but he is not enough to put the team in position to do anything special.

Crisp is a slight improvement over the slappy they already brought in, but pretty pointless still.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby Pressrunnr » Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:07 pm

The Phillies may be willing to trade Brown to a third team to get the prospects the Astros want for Pence, Stark writes.


From MLB trade rumors.

I know he's LH, and he's essentially a prospect too (and he's not Hunter Pence) but ... any chance Tribe could worm its way in to be the 3rd team & snag their LF for the next 6 years or so in Domonic Brown? (Is he that good?) Who knows, maybe he would help this year too. Maybe expand the deal, send Raffy or someone to Phils, send more to Stros and get Wandy.

To Phils: Pence, Raffy
To Stros: Phil prospects, Tribe prospects (Pom? guess it depends on how much potential Brown has) :gah:
To Tribe: Brown, Wandy

Even a scaled-down one where Tribe just gets Brown would at least mitigate the mistake from 2 years ago in not insisting on him in the Lee deal.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby Dnthateonthepronk » Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:57 pm

Pressrunnr wrote:
The Phillies may be willing to trade Brown to a third team to get the prospects the Astros want for Pence, Stark writes.


From MLB trade rumors.

I know he's LH, and he's essentially a prospect too (and he's not Hunter Pence) but ... any chance Tribe could worm its way in to be the 3rd team & snag their LF for the next 6 years or so in Domonic Brown? (Is he that good?) Who knows, maybe he would help this year too. Maybe expand the deal, send Raffy or someone to Phils, send more to Stros and get Wandy.

To Phils: Pence, Raffy
To Stros: Phil prospects, Tribe prospects (Pom? guess it depends on how much potential Brown has) :gah:
To Tribe: Brown, Wandy

Even a scaled-down one where Tribe just gets Brown would at least mitigate the mistake from 2 years ago in not insisting on him in the Lee deal.



I would not deal Pomeranz for Brwon and Wandy straight up. Definitley agree with you on Brwon, would be nice to slide in as the 3rd team to get Brown
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby TribeinLA » Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:47 pm

I think the following scenarios will happen...

Our big pick-up is going to be Ludwick. That's not BIG by most standards, but that's going to be our gem signing. Who we'll give up...probably one prize and one low-level.

Now, the 3rd and final pickup and the move that defines the Cleveland Indians...Jeremy Guthrie. He's not who I want, but he sure as hell beats Mitch Talbot and Jeanmar Gomez. He's dwindling down the stretch and his ERA had been sub 4 until the break. Nevertheless, he's pitched 5 innings or more in 9 of his last 10 starts and obviously we can ignore the win/loss record as an Oriole. His worst two starts in that stretch were against us and the Rangers. One of his best performances of the season was against the Bo Sox just 10 days ago. The talks of Jimenez are just plain confusing as teams are backing off, but there are still lots of teams involved -- one of which is Detroit who I could likely see keeping him away from us. Kuroda is not going to come to Cleveland and that's 100 percent final. There's no way and yanno, I really don't care.

Then, there's Aaron Harang who this year has really made his stock rise as a 33 year old who is known to be just another picther (a .500 won loss record exeplifies that). I haven't followed him much in the trade talks until recently because I didn't think we were looking at him, nor were the Padres that concerned with dealing a guy who is helping them win. He's not been overpowering, but he's been pitching well and in his last 9 games, has given a QS. He's almost 4 million. Guthrie is 2 million more. The Tigers apparently are interested in him also and I'd think they'd likely want to keep us away from Jimenez and Harang in that order. Meanwhile, Guthrie is quietly being asked about. For the money and the results, Harang would make the most sense, but Guthrie might end up being the better bargain where Cleveland could resign him in 2012 for about what he's making now or less. Harang likely would want to negotiate for double what he's worth now. Are we wanting to sign a pitcher for the next 3 years or just a rental playoff run?

If I had to put money on it...Ludwick comes over tomorrow and Guthrie/Harang just before the deadline. I am just having fun and am only self-speculating, along with following the rumors. I don't see the sexy move with Jimenez (and he's likely going to go downhill from 2011); Kuroda has basically said NY or Boston or nothing; and the big name likes of a Shields would ask waaaay too much in likely a Kipnis or Pomeranz with a Carmona. Jeremy Guthrie was a guy I didn't want to lose when we did, but he hasn't been much of a thought since he left. In any case, he'd be a decent fit and could provide us with a quality 4 guy who can at least eat some innings. Harang -- likewise, only he'd likley be a 3, wouldn't he? Maybe a 2? And for the remainder of this season, he's cheaper than Guthrie! But again, do we want a long term guy or a rental? My guess is somewhere in between and it's either Guthrie or Harang as the tweeners we fool with.
Last edited by TribeinLA on Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby TribeinLA » Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:52 pm

1. Masterson
2. Carrasco
3. Tomlin
4. Guthrie/Harang
5. Carmona
*Huff if needed of anyone who goes on DL. That doesn't look too shabby. Jimenez looks better on paper, but that right there is a solid rotation that will eat tons of innings, overall.
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Re: What reasonable moves do you see us making? If any?

Unread postby Pressrunnr » Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:18 pm

4:34pm: The Indians have joined the Tigers in the pursuit of Marquis, tweets ESPN's Jim Bowden. The two division rivals appear to be chasing many of the same starting pitchers. The Nationals are asking a lot, as they reportedly want teams to take on Marquis' remaining $2.5MM and surrender a prospect.


He doesn't interest me all that much ... but I'd love to help drive up the price for ol' ashtray face & the tigers
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