Cleveland Indians & MLB

by **TribeinLA** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:16 am

And what would you like, within reason, to see.

Names tossed around goes as absurd as Kemp and Wright to Ludwick to Reuniting with Casey and Carroll.

Who would we move and what would you like to see us get and give up. I know it's a deadhorse topic...but I really think we're going to pull sommething. Had White and Choo not gotten hurt over longterm, I don't see any moves.

by **TribeinLA** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:20 am

It won't happen, but damn I would love to get Peralta back and stick him at 3rd. I'd trade one our better AAA guys. No one figured he was going to pan out, but he is so well protected in that det lineup. Hard to believe he was our 3 hitter for two seasons.

by **scrambler** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:30 am

by **Prosecutor** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 11:54 am

I think dumping Talbot and bringing up Gomez would be a reasonable move.

Playing Valbuena at 2nd against right-handers is another reasonable move.

As for trades, it's tough because so many teams are still in contention.

by **scrambler** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:54 pm

I think the biggest need is a starting pitcher if we can find one. I think Buck and Kearns can handle right until Choo comes back, they've actually both been starting to hit a bit more especially Buck. Even I have come around to where they need to replace Talbot. I'm not confident White will be ready, nor have overwhelming confidence in any of the AAA guys.

by **Symbolic47** » Sat Jul 09, 2011 6:00 pm

Again I dont want to see us trade for much if anything. I could support the Ludwick move, and would LOVE to get Josh Willingham as he just came off the DL thursday. But as far as pitchers go, I say go to battle with the kids. Lets see what they got, because honestly our real window begins next season.

I mean four spots are pretty much locks for next year

- Masterson
- Carrassco
- Tomlin
- White

And Pom is the wildcard as he might make the opening day roster if he continues to dominate. Time to move him up a level. We really need to figure out what we have in Mcallister, Gomez, Barnes and even Huff. Get them some experience, and then they could potentially be great trading chips.

by **smalls1129** » Sun Jul 10, 2011 6:22 pm

I honestly we might be thinking of this wrong. The general sentiment is that the indians are not going to trade the future to win this year. While this is correct if you listen to the manager and front office when discussing their needs, they always bring up a RH bat to hit for power in the middle of this lineup. I take this to mean they've changed their long term view on LaPorta and realize they needed to fill a future and present need from outside the system.

I may be wrong but I don't believe we have any RH power hitters anywhere close in our system, so this is going to be a need for the remainder of this window we have coming up. And which is more likely, that we go out in FA or attempt to trade for one? If the FO isn't just blowing smoke I think they realize that this is a need not going away and if the right deal presents itself I could see them trading anyone but AW or DP.

by **TonyIPI** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:08 am

I'd say realistically they will address all pitching needs in pen and rotation from within. No trades there. The only thing I see them doing on the trade front is getting a RH hitting OF bat. Could be any of Ludwick, Francoeur, etc type of guy....but the key is they will not want to part with any first division prospect. Right now just too many teams still in it....the trade need may not be addressed until August at this rate as I don't see the Indians being willing to overpay for any of these guys.

by **rebelwithoutaclue** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:37 pm

ESPN insider article kind of addresses this with a column about trades that should be made. Proposes Weglarz for Kuroda, who has been the main pitcher targeted on the boards. I'd prefer to give up one of our AAA starters + a bullpen minor leaguer but I think I could stomach letting go of the perpetually injured Weglarz for a reliable veteran starter.

Cleveland Indians trade Nick Weglarz to the Los Angeles Dodgers for Hiroki Kuroda and $2 million

His record looks ugly thanks to the sixth-worst run support in baseball, but Kuroda has put up another solid season, with a 3.06 ERA, 3.66 xFIP and strikeout-to-walk rate of nearly 3-to-1. The 36-year-old's pinpoint control (just over two walks allowed per nine innings for his career) bodes well for his succeeding outside Dodger Stadium, even if he's not top-of-the-rotation material. He doesn't have to be for the Tribe, who have innings concerns with young pitchers like Carlos Carrasco and regression concerns with unlikely success stories like Josh Tomlin, and mostly need a veteran who can offer 12 to 15 starts of slightly above-average performance. Kuroda's making $12 million this year, so the Indians could benefit from the Dodgers sending some cash back.

The 23-year-old Weglarz has struggled with injuries the past two seasons, and his defense is shaky. But he's also a legitimate on-base threat with power, something the Dodgers sorely need. James Loney isn't much better than replacement level and existing prospects like Jerry Sands and Trayvon Robinson are talented, but not sure things. Adding another candidate for the future first base or left field job would be a coup for a team that probably won't do anything more exciting than this for the rest of this season … on the field anyway.

by **TonyIPI** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:48 pm

Feh. To me trading for a veteran starting pitcher is a move just to make a move. According to what I have heard the Indians are not interested in acquiring pitching as they like their starting/bullpen depth. They may end up making a deal, but they likely only will go after bats, particularly in the outfield.

by **rebelwithoutaclue** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:54 pm

TonyIPI wrote:Feh. To me trading for a veteran starting pitcher is a move just to make a move. According to what I have heard the Indians are not interested in acquiring pitching as they like their starting/bullpen depth. They may end up making a deal, but they likely only will go after bats, particularly in the outfield.

I'd prefer an outfielder as well but my only pause is that if Fausto and Talbot keep pitching terribly and can't start anymore, that'd be 2/5 of the rotation that will be dependent on AAA guys. And it also seems like we can only have 1 or 2 at most of the Masterson/Tomlin/Carrasco trio pitching well at one time. Talbot's a dead man walking so it really comes down to Fausto. If he can get his shit together while on the DL, I'd be less inclined to puruse a starting pitcher. If not? Kuroda would be my #1 target.

by **TonyIPI** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:49 pm

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:I'd prefer an outfielder as well but my only pause is that if Fausto and Talbot keep pitching terribly and can't start anymore, that'd be 2/5 of the rotation that will be dependent on AAA guys. And it also seems like we can only have 1 or 2 at most of the Masterson/Tomlin/Carrasco trio pitching well at one time. Talbot's a dead man walking so it really comes down to Fausto. If he can get his shit together while on the DL, I'd be less inclined to puruse a starting pitcher. If not? Kuroda would be my #1 target.

I agree it gives pause.

Fausto no matter what is going to pitch here the rest of the season barring injury. Worst case he is moved to the bullpen, but they won't DFA him. Too talented and no going to lose him for nothing. So the question remains what they do with the 4th spot with Talbot....for now they are inclined to go with Gomez and see what happens. It is not out of the realm of possibility they won't get a vet starter, but that would only seem possible if they had an injury or two (or Fausto remains out).

By the way, we were THIS close to signing Bartolo Colon in the offseason. Wow, how good would he look in the 5th spot right now? Goodness gracious.

by **smalls1129** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:09 pm

From the limited comments the FO has made public I only see us making a deal if it helps fill an organizational weakness. RH bat with pop is the only thing I see lacking both now and for the next couple of seasons. The guy may not be a household name but I think that's where they're focussed, and if it don't happen this year it is real easy to say ' we are a year ahead and we'll run with this group for the future'. I might be wrong but that's how I see us playing it.

by **googleeph2** » Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:15 pm

Symbolic47 wrote:But as far as pitchers go, I say go to battle with the kids. Lets see what they got, because honestly our real window begins next season.

I don't get that. They may have planned to arrive next year, but they find themselves in contention this year. They can't just ignore that, and I don't think they will.

I mean, even if the Tribe is better next year, who's to say a key injury doesn't happen- or that other division teams won't become a LOT better?

If you have a chance to make the playoffs, you take reasonable strides to increase your odds. A veteran SP and a veteran RH bat to provide stability with the young team could help prevent the free fall we saw in June, and they could help lead with poise and by example. Nobody thinks they will pick up a David Wright. But a Ludwick replacing a Kearns on the roster would be huge. Or a Kuroda, helping to hedge against the # of innings these young pitchers must throw (hey, maybe Alex White being shelved will make him more available in Sept).

If the window has cracked open a year or two ahead of time, you don't ignore it.

In fact, no team has any business in completely standing pat, in any contending year.
If they do, they aren't trying hard enough. And they just might watch their competitors pass them by.

Also, why the love for Josh Willingham?

by **rebelwithoutaclue** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:32 am

Also, why the love for Josh Willingham?

Well if the pickings are this slim that we're debating Ludwick vs. Willingham, I'd take Willingham everyday. Both have injury histories but Willingham is more consistent, more patient, and has more power than Ludwick. Ludwick is still living off that monster year protecting Pujols (.966 OPS in 2008 with zero years above .818 the rest of his career) while Willingham, until this year, had an OPS above .827 every year of his career.

by **gotribe31** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:46 pm

Know what I'd like long-term? If we could pry Yonder Alonso from Cincy. He's blocked by Votto, and they don't have much in their upper levels in the middle infield. As much as I love Phelps, I'd deal him and a lower level arm for Alonso.

by **RedDawg53** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:21 pm

Marcus Thames is available. He's played a lot of RF and some LF. He might be worth a shot. :thumb up:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/d ... +Rumors%29

by **Pressrunnr** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:37 am

Seems to me they're as well-positioned as any team to acquire some help. The word on their farm system is that it's short on "star" potential players but lots of depth in terms of solid, major-league prospects. If that's true, then they should be able to pry a decent hitter or starter, since I don't think any team gives up their Chisenhall/Pomeranz caliber prospects anymore. If those guys are essentially off the table for everyone, it comes down to which team has the most depth of "decent" guys.

Although it does seem like national "analysts" always want the Indians to give up their top talent, but when they're sellers never seem to want them to get top dollar. (Remember how it was almost sacrilege for the Tribe to even think about getting both LaPorta AND Gamel for Sabathia?)

by **bookelly** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:15 pm

RedDawg53 wrote:Marcus Thames is available. He's played a lot of RF and some LF. He might be worth a shot.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/d ... +Rumors%29

Oh Lord no. Tomlin's a better hitter.

by **googleeph2** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:34 pm

Hear ya Press.

Weren't Santana (Blake) and C Perez (DeRosa) top prospects though?

by **WiscTribeFan** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:42 pm

gotribe31 wrote:Know what I'd like long-term? If we could pry Yonder Alonso from Cincy. He's blocked by Votto, and they don't have much in their upper levels in the middle infield. As much as I love Phelps, I'd deal him and a lower level arm for Alonso.

It's going to take more than that to pry him away from Cincy. He's blocked, but he's also one of their top rated prospects and raking at age 23 in AAA. He'll be expensive.

They've been linked to interest in Colorado's Ubaldo Jimenez. If they deal him, it will be in a major upgrade type of a deal, not one for a guy who struggles to play defense.

by **TribeinLA** » Wed Jul 13, 2011 2:22 pm

Leeph2 makes too much sense. I agree. Enough of the "still two years away plan". We have the makings NOW if we make TWO decent moves. I say:

Make the deal with the Dodgers. That's the best pitcher we can afford with those kind of stats. He'd be likely a good one-two year mystery like Nomo and Dice-K were, too. Hell, Chan Ho Park was good for 5 minutes. Those far east guys are tricky for an hour or two. That's about what we have left of this season.

Make a surprise deal with a solid corner guy. Could we afford Beltran? No. Could we pry Francouer away from KC, who is a team that is indeed two years away? It would take a lot of AAA flash. Could we get Ludwick from SD in exchange for some backend bullpen help? They'd likely go for it. Could we pull guys like Thames and Cameron out of thin air for virtually nothing? Yeah, but they aren't the answers.

I say go for this year. Give up two of the better prospects and maybe even someone we wouldn't think about parting with. Detroit is tearing the cover off of the ball, but have Verlander and that's about it. We combat them in the remaining 13 games with pitching and we do all we can to help ourselves. Beat up on your division -- best way of getting in the show. If we don't pull a move soon, we're going to finish in 3rd place. For God's sakes, we're 1/2 game out of first in a crappy division. We need to play the game.

by **Pressrunnr** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:52 pm

Just saw on MLB traderumors that the Reds are looking for relief help. System-wide, that seems to be where Tribe's depth is as well. Now, a guy like Alonso would be spectacular even though he's a LH. However ... there's this guy Chris Heisey who might be a nice fit. Has 10 HRs in limited action. Everyone here in Cincy is crying for him to play more, but Dusty likes him too much off the bench (and likes veterans like Jonny Gomes too much). He's not a "glamor" guy but a pretty good RH bat, plays pretty good D, under team control ... might be a guy to consider. Might a package including someone of the Judy-Putnam-Hagadone ilk get it done? Hate to mess w/the guys at the ML level, but maybe Durbin and a prospect?

by **peeker643** » Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:05 pm

Pressrunnr wrote:Just saw on MLB traderumors that the Reds are looking for relief help. System-wide, that seems to be where Tribe's depth is as well. Now, a guy like Alonso would be spectacular even though he's a LH. However ... there's this guy Chris Heisey who might be a nice fit. Has 10 HRs in limited action. Everyone here in Cincy is crying for him to play more, but Dusty likes him too much off the bench (and likes veterans like Jonny Gomes too much). He's not a "glamor" guy but a pretty good RH bat, plays pretty good D, under team control ... might be a guy to consider. Might a package including someone of the Judy-Putnam-Hagadone ilk get it done? Hate to mess w/the guys at the ML level, but maybe Durbin and a prospect?

Teams want relievers because they already have Durbins and if they want a reliever it won't be an untested AAA guy for their stretch run.

If you're dealing with a contender (and the Reds are in that division) then think more like Pestano, Sipp, R Perez and YOU plug the AAA guy in your pen and take your chance.

One of the three mentioned (depending on need, maybe Joe Smith too) and one of your hitting prospects might get your solid RH bat. If it's a young and controllable RH bat you're surely paying that price.

It all changes if you're dealing with a team out of the race. Then your prospects are far more in play IMO.

by **TonyIPI** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:41 am

I've heard that the Indians may be willing to part with Rafael Perez or Joe Smith in the right deal. They feel they have the bullpen depth to trade from the strength if needed, and both are getting expensive (arbitration). Would need to be the right deal, but those are probably the two most likely to be dealt (Pestano likely going nowhere).

by **Lokais** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:00 am

The Indians have apparently expressed interest in Jimenez as well. Tough competition for him though.

by **WiscTribeFan** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:21 am

Lokais wrote:The Indians have apparently expressed interest in Jimenez as well. Tough competition for him though.

Yeah, that would cost them a pretty penny. Pommeranz for sure to start the negotiations.

Don't see that type of deal happening.

by **Lokais** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:53 am

My guess is them being reported as interested was along the lines of "So hey, what are you looking for for Jimenez? Oh, that much huh? OK, thanks anyway."

by **scott** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:17 pm

per Peter Gammons on Twitter -

"Chase Headley .248/.694 @ Petco, .339/.869 road. If I'm trying to get a 3B, I'd pay for him"

Would fit our needs if they could get him for a reasonable offer. Though I don't see why the Padres would want to trade him.

by **peeker643** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:19 pm

TonyIPI wrote:I've heard that the Indians may be willing to part with Rafael Perez or Joe Smith in the right deal. They feel they have the bullpen depth to trade from the strength if needed, and both are getting expensive (arbitration). Would need to be the right deal, but those are probably the two most likely to be dealt (Pestano likely going nowhere).

Pestano is relatively young and exceptionally cheap. I agree he's unlikely to go anywhere. Including him in my post was more a statement of the quality of reliever that someone else would be interested in.

It's those guys that teams will be interested in as opposed to Chad Durbin who would be no more to anyone else than he is to the Tribe which is a competent, veteran guy with very little upside upside and less longevity than the others.

by **WiscTribeFan** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:22 pm

Lokais wrote:My guess is them being reported as interested was along the lines of "So hey, what are you looking for for Jimenez? Oh, that much huh? OK, thanks anyway."

Yeah, from Baseball Trade Rumors:

Rival GMs believe that a deal for Ubaldo Jimenez is “all but impossible,” since the Rockies would ask for so much in a trade for their ace. The Rockies will listen on Jimenez, who is on the Reds' radar.

by **peeker643** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:23 pm

scott wrote:per Peter Gammons on Twitter -

"Chase Headley .248/.694 @ Petco, .339/.869 road. If I'm trying to get a 3B, I'd pay for him"

Would fit our needs if they could get him for a reasonable offer. Though I don't see why the Padres would want to trade him.

Not a fan of Headley defensively at 3B and his offense isn't enough to carry me past that. If that's a target I'd prefer to keep Chisenhall there and let him take his lumps with Hannahan coming in defensively.

And the Padres might end up dealing Heath Bell somewhere. They seem to be in a perpetual rebuild or somewhere between rebuild and competitive. Bad place to be.

by **Rat_Tail** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:44 pm

Wonder what it would take to get Adam Jones. If they are going the OF route they might as well get someone relatively young.

by **TribeinLA** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:52 pm

I'd be content to part with Perez. Maybe even Pestano. We better NOT f with Sipp. He's got the most upside of the three by far.

I wish we could squeeze a deal with the Mets. They have 2 guys I'd give up something good for. Of course, it's illogical. We're not a major player...just a stand back and catch what's left team.

We're gonna hve to sacrifice SOMETHING to get something.

by **Dellucci TailGator** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:02 pm

TonyIPI wrote:I've heard that the Indians may be willing to part with Rafael Perez or Joe Smith in the right deal. They feel they have the bullpen depth to trade from the strength if needed, and both are getting expensive (arbitration). Would need to be the right deal, but those are probably the two most likely to be dealt (Pestano likely going nowhere).

I'd applaud them using Joe Smith as a trade piece. This is his career year. He essentially is Steve Reed. He can't stay healthy. And there's no way he keeps getting left-handers out at this rate.

Perez I'm more leery on parting with. This organization searched since Assenmacher to find a dependable left-hander. They traded Brian Giles to find one. They rehabbed guys for entire seasons to get one. And Perez has been the first to stick.

by **TribeinLA** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:01 pm

That's just it, though. I don't think any team would be willing to give up anything for Joe Smith unless we're talking a heavy contender desperate for bullpen help and willing to play for one year. The teams that want to play ball with us would likley be asking us about Pomeranz,Carrasco, AAA studs, Sipp, Perez, and Pestano in that order. Who knows? I just don't think we're going to get much for Smith unless we package him with a guy like Chisenhall or Phelps (doubt that we would).

What are the chances we give up and get anything for Gomez? IS he that valuable to our staff and why or why wouldn't he be a smart candidate? Would the Indians ever package together a Gomez/Smith/Phelps type of trade? Honestly, it's been so long other than 2007 that we were in an exciting deadline decision that I have lost the ability to know what a smart move for the Cleveland Indians would be. I recall '07 and we were actually thinking that the "mystery move to be expected" was going to be either Carl Crawford or Eric Gagne and it turned out to be Lofton. In other words, I haven't seen Shapiro and co. pull a blockbuster and that may never happen. God knows we have seen some good ones in the past, though...the Lofton for Grissom and Justice deal was certainly awesome as it ended up being Lofton for Justice, Grissom...and Lofton.

by **Symbolic47** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:09 pm

Last night looking at the Orioles lineup I couldn't notice they do have a handful of very nice hitters there, who are vets. The Orioles should be sellers this year. I dont think there is anyway they trade Adam Jones, but what about Nick Markakis? I know he would be due some money soon, but hes a good young guy, we could attempt to lock up as a core guy. Move him to LF and our OF is looking nice, even if Grady doesn't regain his past for. Just throwing crap out here, but I wonder what it would take to get him? Those would be the types I would want to look at.

by **jerryroche** » Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:26 pm

You guys are all whistling past the grave. The Tribe needs at least two more hitters, maybe three, to even come close to competing with the Bostons, New Yorks and Philadelphias of the world.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it would be nice to make the playoffs, but it’d probably be three-and-out with this weak-hitting (seven starters in the .230 to .250 range) crew. Why give up any promising arms or bats now just to make a quick exit from post-season, when -- with a productive off-season and the growth of the young’uns -- the Tribe stands a far better chance of actually doing some damage in the playoffs next season?

Color me skeptical, but the front office has admittedly built this team for the 2012 and 2013 seasons. Let's dream about a world championship in either of the next two years and give up our stupid dreams of one this year.

by **TribeinLA** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:52 am

NO offense, but this Jerry is the mindset that too many people have had for too long. 5 years ago (or so) it was all about developing Laffey, Miller, Sowers, and a whole big bag of fail. The front office, yes, has got to be pleased but when you're in first, you're there for a reason. We've hung with Boston and New York. We are not even close to the worst hitting club and we're really achieving with the RISP. I don't see what this team is going to gain by almost allowing Det or Chi to surpass and feel morally victorious because we THINK we're set for 2013. Fooooey. By 2013, Hafner and Sizemore could be coaching little league and Carmona likely doesn't get any of those club options to get his entire 45 mil. So, we expect Santana, Choo, Chisenhall, Phelps, LaPorta, and Brantley to carry us? I don't really see that unless we have a very solid staff...which could happen. The problem with that is 1-2 pitchers get hurt and then we're in hot water. I admit...that's probably the plan, but this staff is certainly capable of regression. I'm not so sure Tomlin stays this good (see Sowers '06) and Masterson and Carrasco would have to become the horses. I guess what I am saying is that I see a lot more certainties NOW than I do prophetic visions.

And why give up? No other franchise in first place has that mindset so why should we? We swept the Pirates, ate the Reds all but up, and have given everyone but the Rangers and Twinkies a damn fine run for the money. Masterson is pitching well and Carmona comes off the DL and he sure cannot get any worse. This is the best bullpen I have seen in Cleveland in 14 years. The formula is there. If we got to the playoffs and likley had to face Boston in the first round, yeah -- tough tits indeed. Would rather get there or pull an '05 and storm all the way but crash in the end? I love October baseball and I wasn't alive in 1948 so it's obvious I can still love it even if we don't get the title. Let's win the central; to do that we're gonna need to make a move or 2.

And I really like the idea of luring Markakis to Cleveland. We'd likely have to give up too much, but damn would he be a nice fit. Watching the Orioles play is like watching a warehouse full of misused talent that 2-3 teams should get a piece of by August 1. Gotta say that I wanna be a player. We can do this. See the St. Louis Cardinals of 2006.

by **bookelly** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:31 am

Don't fuck with the bullpen. We know what happens when we have a crap bullpen. 2008 anyone? ::doh::

by **jerryroche** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:00 am

TribeinLA wrote:Let's win the central; to do that we're gonna need to make a move or 2.

Understand where you're coming from and agree with most of your well-thought-out points. I'm not giving up on 2011, though, and I don't think that we have to make a move or two to win the Central Division. We're in first place using the guys on the 40-man, and the only reason we might not be able to finish there is if the young arms tire as the season progresses.

Face it: there aren't any bona fide RH thumpers or ace starters available on the trade market, so let's see what these guys can do without trading our future for a possible shot at "instant gratification.'

Great thread.

by **scrambler** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 10:46 am

jerryroche wrote:You guys are all whistling past the grave. The Tribe needs at least two more hitters, maybe three, to even come close to competing with the Bostons, New Yorks and Philadelphias of the world.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it would be nice to make the playoffs, but it’d probably be three-and-out with this weak-hitting (seven starters in the .230 to .250 range) crew. Why give up any promising arms or bats now just to make a quick exit from post-season, when -- with a productive off-season and the growth of the young’uns -- the Tribe stands a far better chance of actually doing some damage in the playoffs next season?

Color me skeptical, but the front office has admittedly built this team for the 2012 and 2013 seasons. Let's dream about a world championship in either of the next two years and give up our stupid dreams of one this year.

We're in a new world now. The world champions can't hit and still can't hit, and they're still in first place. Compare the Giants lineup to the team they beat in the World Series last year. You can't. There is no comparison. If you pitch really good, you can survive in post season. Torres, Sanchez, Posey, Ross, Uribe, Huff, Burrell, Rentereia, Rowand, that's your title clinching lineup right there.

I agree with the premise...anything this year is a bonus, but I simply don't buy that they can't compete if they actually do get to post season. If you pitch, you can compete, that was proven in spades last year.

by **Prosecutor** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:31 am

Forget Markakis; we're not trading for another left-handed hitter when we're already overweight on that side. If we're doing anything it's for a right-handed power bat. Hoynes says the Tribe has interest in Beltran, Willingham, and Ludwick. Beltran would be the game changer. The other two are pretty much identical to Matt LaPorta.

LaPorta .248/.730
Ludwick .243/.689 (in a pitcher's park, however)
Willingham .249/.763

Ludwick or Willingham would be upgrades over Kearns, Buck, or Duncan until Choo gets back, but another LaPorta in the lineup isn't going to get it done. If they're serious about this year they'll go after Carlos Beltran and his .893 OPS. The Mets are 12 games out and have no chance of catching Philly.

by **TribeinLA** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:38 pm

Don't tease me. Sending Beltran over would be like the equivalent of Winston Wolfe cleaning up at Jimmy's house. He would totally make me feel at ease about the rest of the year. Stick him in front/behind Hafner and all of a sudden, Santana becomes a 30-35 HR guy. How realistic would THAT be?

by **peeker643** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 12:49 pm

I agree with Prosecutor. If you're going to see any move it will be of that ilk. Whether it's Willingham, Ludwick, Morse, etc, that's the move you're going to see.

You wish all you want for a bigger name or a more impactful player but this team isn't going to give away a big piece of its future right now.

Nor should it when a large portion of the important players on this team have no meaningful late season experience. They will benefit by getting that right now and later this season and it will galvanize them and make them more dangerous. But they're not going to give guys away they believe are necessary to that future.

It's THESE guys who have competed and THESE guys who have the division lead. Carlos Beltran and the like haven't done shit to build a lead in the AL Central and there's zero guarantee they'll help when they get here.

Getting Choo back and getting a productive Sizemore going is what you need to hope for and for Tomlin, Carrasco, Masterson to continue dealing.

If Fausto would like to show up in 2011 that would be great too. And I still think there's a Jaret Wright potential for the rotation coming down the stretch. From who? I'm not sure. But it wouldn't surprise me to see someone not currently in the rotation step forward and become a big piece.

That's what you got. A Kevin Seitzer type deal (and even the cost to that was steep).

Nothing more and nothing more should be done IMO.

by **Symbolic47** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:10 pm

Markakis may be another lefty, but at least we could attempt to keep him as a core player. If you look at his career splits he is a .290 hitter career against lefties with a .350 OBP. So he doesn't exactly struggle with them.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... Career&t=b

I think its worth a call to Baltimore to see what it would take. Obviously he wont come cheap, but he isnt untouchable like Adam Jones( another Seattle fleecing). Looking over Baltimore's system they are in dire need of pitching, which we happen to have alot of right now. Id say anyone but White and Pom in the minors would be doable for a player like Markakis. Something like Gomez, Huff and Phelps might get the job done. And does anyone really feel like were going to mortgage out future trading guys like that? Gomez's value has never been higher, and dont think it ever probably well unless he lights up the majors the next month. I say no to Ludwick, no to Beltran( gonna take way to much for a one year guy) and a maybe to Willingham(but only if we can sign him for 2-3 years). Hell even Mark Reynolds would be a nice addition. Granted he doesn't hit for average, but he is a RH bat with alot of pop, and could really help this team. On the Markakis note, hell Id even move Brantley for him in a heartbeat with a few of our pitchers. A corner OF of Choo and Markakis would be really nice, and the best we have had since Belle and Ramirez IMO. Grady is the huge question mark right now. If he comes back to what he used to be this is all a moot point as our offense in the OF would be fine anyhow. Regardless Markakis is the kind of move I would love to at least see us kick the tires on. I could deal with Ludwick, but what do we have to get up? Same goes for Willingham, but again I want to be able to sign him for LF for the next 2-3 years as you know Billy will want our SP's.

All in all this is a great thread.

by **peeker643** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:43 pm

Symbolic47 wrote:Markakis may be another lefty, but at least we could attempt to keep him as a core player. If you look at his career splits he is a .290 hitter career against lefties with a .350 OBP. So he doesn't exactly struggle with them.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/playe ... Career&t=b

Dude's in the prime of his career or coming into it and makes 11, 12 and then $15m before hitting the market.

You're not getting Nick Markakis unless you want to gut your system. It's not happening.

The thread asks for reasonable moves. That's not one.

by **Symbolic47** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 1:54 pm

We wouldn't have to gut our system to get Markakis. A really nice package yes, but gut it no. That would be Adam Jones, one of the only two untouchables the O's have right now. They have a serious lack of depth throughout their entire system. All Im saying is its worth looking into. That is all.

by **peeker643** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:29 pm

Symbolic47 wrote:We wouldn't have to gut our system to get Markakis. A really nice package yes, but gut it no. That would be Adam Jones, one of the only two untouchables the O's have right now. They have a serious lack of depth throughout their entire system. All Im saying is its worth looking into. That is all.

Two of either Kipnis, Chisenhall and Phelps and one of Pomeranz/White. If not more for a young, excellent defensive, very good offensive OF under control (albeit expensively) for this year and three more.

That's the minimum cost unless Angelos is hell bent on shedding salary (and there are no indications giving he signings of Guerrero and Lee that that's his mind set).

by **TribeinLA** » Sat Jul 16, 2011 2:53 pm

Yes Peek, this is about reasonable and I agree, Markakis isn't happening (would be nice).

A Kevin Seitzer type deal? Can I get a platoon with Kevin Maas or Greg Jeffries with that? While Seitzer was certainly a decent ballplayer, I am not interested in acquiring someone just for the hell of it. If you see that as the best case scenario, let's just play through and worry about winning with what we've won with.

The only players I am not willing to deal (of the mentioned that we would) are Pomeeranz, Carrasco, and Sipp. Everyone else -- including Chisenhall -- can be expendable for the right move. Not saying I want a 30 year old Hannahan as our 3b of the future, but I also want to win.

Cleveland needs a title. I'm not a Browns nor a Cavs fan and I gather Ohio State is going to meet 1987ish Bruce Earl-like conditions for a couple of years. The Indians are now the best ticket in town again. Do you want to win now or gamble for later? I'm just askin.

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