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Maybe Gilbert was right...

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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby FUDU » Wed May 18, 2011 5:33 pm

diminishingskills wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
diminishingskills wrote:Do you think the Heat will win a title in the next five years?


I do think they will. I think they win more than one as a matter of fact. And at the very least they're an ECF-caliber team for the next 4-6 years.

The Cavs are not and will not be.

So I need someone to explain to me again why I should prefer to be the Cavs and not the Heat during that time.

Sorry- I give no credit for 'rebuilding the right way'. I can't tell you how many title-less years I've heard that phrase uttered.

Remember the groundbreaking and innovative way John Hart built the Tribe teams of the mid 90's? Yeah...I'd still rather be the simplistic and behind the times Braves and Marlins.

YMMV


My mileage doesn't vary that much, actually. It would have definitely been more fun to be a Miami fan than a Cavs fan this year. Probably true for the next 2-3 years as well (at least, if your scale as a fan is "will the team be a title contender"; I think there's something to be said for watching a young, developing team that isn't quite there yet but is still fun to watch).

I just happen to believe that the Bron/Wade/Bosh incarnation of the Heat are not going to win a title. Not because of residual LBJ-hate, but because objectively, the Heat have some pretty big weaknesses that even their considerable strengths do not cover. I think the Bulls take them out this year, and I think the Bulls and Thunder block them in 2012/2013, and then I think the combination of (a) the sun starting to set on Wade's career and (b) the media pressure of "it's been three season and you STILL haven't won a title???" take their toll.

Meanwhile, I see the Cavs as building towards something using the best path available to them. It's still early on that path, but I can see where it is heading, and I think the trip will be a fun one.

Besides, how much can we REALLY enjoy rooting for a team that features Boozer and Noah? ;)

I'm somewhere in the middle of these two takes, leaning a bit more toward John. IMO the Heat need a couple more pieces with a semblance of a bench being one multi faceted piece. While they have a big advantage over most teams in possessing 2 of the top 5 players in the league they will probably end up resembling the Cavaliers from the past few years in that they will need to sacrifice their future to add the pieces they need to win short term, and if they don't win after 3-4 years of trying they just might need to give up on the experiment?

I also think it is crazy to assume the Cavaliers will in no way be in position to win in 5 years. Of course the picks have to pan out, and of course it needs to be built correctly, but if you do so it doesn't have to take longer than 5 years for it all to come to fruition.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed May 18, 2011 5:52 pm

The hypocrisy of the series doesn't start to someone loses holds some truth. Look past the irrational emotion and their is a difference to be had in relation to Miami. They are fragile. That is a past performance historical perspective, because this team doesn't have an extensive history of toughness.

So while people held on to hope for Boston, it was because they had that history of bouncing back, and outside of that horrible busted play, it showed. The script is still unfolding for these Heat.

Let's see how Miami responds to Chicago's bigz, if they stick with playing small, or if they roll out Z and Damps corpses. If they throw Wade on Rose...

Fun times, as I attempt to cover my complete rage with lucid thought.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby OldDawg » Wed May 18, 2011 5:55 pm

Maybe Gilbert was right???

Probably not. But I have to admit, when I heard that we got the #1 and #4 last night, that was the first thought that entered my mind. Mind you, it was only a thought, not a rational one, just a thought.

If it happens, however, that would be just wonderful.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby FUDU » Wed May 18, 2011 6:03 pm

Orenthal wrote:The hypocrisy of the series doesn't start to someone loses holds some truth. Look past the irrational emotion and their is a difference to be had in relation to Miami. They are fragile. That is a past performance historical perspective, because this team doesn't have an extensive history of toughness.

So while people held on to hope for Boston, it was because they had that history of bouncing back, and outside of that horrible busted play, it showed. The script is still unfolding for these Heat.

Let's see how Miami responds to Chicago's bigz, if they stick with playing small, or if they roll out Z and Damps corpses. If they throw Wade on Rose...

Fun times, as I attempt to cover my complete rage with lucid thought.

Good post, I agree but I still think the saying "it isn't a series until the home team loses" holds a lot of truth, mainly b/c of how big home court can be in hoops.

I agree that Miami being down 0-2 can and should be looked upon as different than the C's being down 0-2 to some degree. Again this is one of the things that says to me this Heat team has taken on the image and mentality of LeBron more than that of Wade when playing the game.

To take this a step further with the Heat, at what point would the LeBron/Wade experiment being viewed as a failure or not working, after two years w/o a ring, 3 or 4? It most certainly isn't now but at some point when you have the two best (and a my lil buddy to go along) and don't win it has to right?
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby StewieG » Wed May 18, 2011 6:05 pm

What Miami needs is a guy down low who can get tough rebounds, defend, and takes no shit. Any scorers they get will be negated by the fact that LeBron and Wade dominate the ball. Any PG they get will just play off the ball anyways. A healthy Udonis Haslem, Varejao, Joakim Noah type player. They have nothing down low. Their one big man with any sort of a skill set has the mentality of a 2-guard.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby OldDawg » Wed May 18, 2011 6:46 pm

Its kinda funny. Until last night, there were essentially crickets chirping and tumbleweeds blowing through this ghost town Cavs forum. Its good to care again. It's good to have something to be excited about. It may not be an NBA title, but it might be the potential for an exciting basketball team.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed May 18, 2011 6:56 pm

FUDU wrote:
diminishingskills wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
diminishingskills wrote:Do you think the Heat will win a title in the next five years?


I do think they will. I think they win more than one as a matter of fact. And at the very least they're an ECF-caliber team for the next 4-6 years.

The Cavs are not and will not be.

So I need someone to explain to me again why I should prefer to be the Cavs and not the Heat during that time.

Sorry- I give no credit for 'rebuilding the right way'. I can't tell you how many title-less years I've heard that phrase uttered.

Remember the groundbreaking and innovative way John Hart built the Tribe teams of the mid 90's? Yeah...I'd still rather be the simplistic and behind the times Braves and Marlins.

YMMV


My mileage doesn't vary that much, actually. It would have definitely been more fun to be a Miami fan than a Cavs fan this year. Probably true for the next 2-3 years as well (at least, if your scale as a fan is "will the team be a title contender"; I think there's something to be said for watching a young, developing team that isn't quite there yet but is still fun to watch).

I just happen to believe that the Bron/Wade/Bosh incarnation of the Heat are not going to win a title. Not because of residual LBJ-hate, but because objectively, the Heat have some pretty big weaknesses that even their considerable strengths do not cover. I think the Bulls take them out this year, and I think the Bulls and Thunder block them in 2012/2013, and then I think the combination of (a) the sun starting to set on Wade's career and (b) the media pressure of "it's been three season and you STILL haven't won a title???" take their toll.

Meanwhile, I see the Cavs as building towards something using the best path available to them. It's still early on that path, but I can see where it is heading, and I think the trip will be a fun one.

Besides, how much can we REALLY enjoy rooting for a team that features Boozer and Noah? ;)

I'm somewhere in the middle of these two takes, leaning a bit more toward John. IMO the Heat need a couple more pieces with a semblance of a bench being one multi faceted piece. While they have a big advantage over most teams in possessing 2 of the top 5 players in the league they will probably end up resembling the Cavaliers from the past few years in that they will need to sacrifice their future to add the pieces they need to win short term, and if they don't win after 3-4 years of trying they just might need to give up on the experiment?

I also think it is crazy to assume the Cavaliers will in no way be in position to win in 5 years. Of course the picks have to pan out, and of course it needs to be built correctly, but if you do so it doesn't have to take longer than 5 years for it all to come to fruition.


How is it "crazy" to assume the Cavaliers will not be in position to win in 5 years?

How many years in the 40 years of existence has this been true? Now take away the ones in which the public enemy took them there. Than look at the examples of teams with multiple high draft choices that still blew 5 years later.

Not being some sort of hater. The reality of a team that needs a point guard, a shooting guard, a center, and a couple forwards finds themselves in. And this is the exact place the irrationality will creep in. We'll have guys here that'll in one breath explain to me that for the first time in his GD career, Baron Davis - in Cleveland of all places, is going to work his ass off in the off season and come in - in shape, and be a "sage" for the younger guys - instead of the sorry example/underachiever he's been wire to wire. The exact type of guy you DON'T want around a young, growing team and players. And then tell me how this is more likely to happen then the Heat simply being able to pick up a complimentary guy that can give them some help.

The Cavs, right now - STINK. The Heat are a final four team. It's a huge jump to go from where the Heat are to breaking the ice and winning it all - but it sure the hell is a lot smaller jump than stink to trophy is.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby FUDU » Wed May 18, 2011 7:22 pm

leadpipe wrote:
FUDU wrote:I'm somewhere in the middle of these two takes, leaning a bit more toward John. IMO the Heat need a couple more pieces with a semblance of a bench being one multi faceted piece. While they have a big advantage over most teams in possessing 2 of the top 5 players in the league they will probably end up resembling the Cavaliers from the past few years in that they will need to sacrifice their future to add the pieces they need to win short term, and if they don't win after 3-4 years of trying they just might need to give up on the experiment?

I also think it is crazy to assume the Cavaliers will in no way be in position to win in 5 years. Of course the picks have to pan out, and of course it needs to be built correctly, but if you do so it doesn't have to take longer than 5 years for it all to come to fruition.


How is it "crazy" to assume the Cavaliers will not be in position to win in 5 years?

How many years in the 40 years of existence has this been true? Now take away the ones in which the public enemy took them there. Than look at the examples of teams with multiple high draft choices that still blew 5 years later.

Not being some sort of hater. The reality of a team that needs a point guard, a shooting guard, a center, and a couple forwards finds themselves in. And this is the exact place the irrationality will creep in. We'll have guys here that'll in one breath explain to me that for the first time in his GD career, Baron Davis - in Cleveland of all places, is going to work his ass off in the off season and come in - in shape, and be a "sage" for the younger guys - instead of the sorry example/underachiever he's been wire to wire. The exact type of guy you DON'T want around a young, growing team and players. And then tell me how this is more likely to happen then the Heat simply being able to pick up a complimentary guy that can give them some help.

The Cavs, right now - STINK. The Heat are a final four team. It's a huge jump to go from where the Heat are to breaking the ice and winning it all - but it sure the hell is a lot smaller jump than stink to trophy is.


Are you basing your opinion on mathematical odds etc, or just on the overall fact that the franchise has sucked more often than not? Frankly either way is a bit a strange way to look at the current situation seeing as both are virtually completely irrelevant to the here and now. It's like saying the Buckeyes are favorite over scum b/c they've had so much recent success over them (so many things change, rosters, coaches, systems that make history completely irrelevant).

When starting over with a couple of semi-workable pieces, a coach and a respectable system and then having two top 4 picks/prospects land in your lap you have to assume the regime is going to apply some lessons they learned from the last go around and make a real run at doing things properly. It isn't a stretch by any means to think that in 3-4 years that young group of kids can compete and do so well IF (<----big) we stay the course, they won't be rookies anymore at that point. I'm not saying it is easy or even highly probable as much as I'm suggesting that thinking it is extremely improbable is a subjective and jaded perspective.

Sure Miami has an easier road b/c they have more of what most teams do not have 1 of, super studs. I mean way to go out on a limb to suggest they'll win one sooner. But Miami isn't necessarily going to retain youth while doing so if they take a long time to in fact do so, without some creative GMing. The Cavaliers route will more likely have to look like a Piston title team than the usual NBA formula, but from crap to a decent shot at a title isn't a 5 year swing either. Plenty of variable to push it either way.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed May 18, 2011 8:17 pm

^Seems he is just basing it on historical performance and just a rational look at overall odds of making all the right choices.

The Cavaliers have ONLY accomplished putting themselves on the right track. After hearing all the abject negativity last year (the owner, GM, players, fans, direction, team moving), this is the ultimate small step.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 18, 2011 8:18 pm

Gilbert is still an angry and irrational midget OJ, so BAH
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed May 18, 2011 8:26 pm

FUDU wrote:Sure Miami has an easier road b/c they have more of what most teams do not have 1 of, super studs. I mean way to go out on a limb to suggest they'll win one sooner. But Miami isn't necessarily going to retain youth while doing so if they take a long time to in fact do so, without some creative GMing. The Cavaliers route will more likely have to look like a Piston title team than the usual NBA formula, but from crap to a decent shot at a title isn't a 5 year swing either. Plenty of variable to push it either way.


Dude, the OP was this...

When LeBron left, Gilbert promised he would win a championship before LBJ does.

With LBJ still puckering up under stress, and the Cavs scoring the #1 and #4 picks, it could happen.


Try and stay focused on that wine and gold colored shit-tacular. Plenty of variables to push it one way or the other? Okay. I guess Delonte could hunt down LBJ and slit his throat and Eyenga could become Jordan.

But again, which side would you lay your money down on?
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby FUDU » Wed May 18, 2011 8:38 pm

peeker643 wrote:
FUDU wrote:Sure Miami has an easier road b/c they have more of what most teams do not have 1 of, super studs. I mean way to go out on a limb to suggest they'll win one sooner. But Miami isn't necessarily going to retain youth while doing so if they take a long time to in fact do so, without some creative GMing. The Cavaliers route will more likely have to look like a Piston title team than the usual NBA formula, but from crap to a decent shot at a title isn't a 5 year swing either. Plenty of variable to push it either way.


Dude, the OP was this...

When LeBron left, Gilbert promised he would win a championship before LBJ does.

With LBJ still puckering up under stress, and the Cavs scoring the #1 and #4 picks, it could happen.


Try and stay focused on that wine and gold colored shit-tacular. Plenty of variables to push it one way or the other? Okay. I guess Delonte could hunt down LBJ and slit his throat and Eyenga could become Jordan.

But again, which side would you lay your money down on?

That's great and all but my reply was to the points you and John mentioned and to this line from Lead:
The Cleveland Cavs in the next 5 years will not be close to a championship - even if many of the draft picks pan out -
.

Pretty sure I never said the Cavaliers are a lock to win a title real soon. But nice to know that it is certain that they will not be close to one in 5 yrs even with 2 of the top 4 picks this year and a very possible lottery pick next year. If I'm being vague by saying things can go either way than Lead is his Vagueness, and I guess we need to define close.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed May 18, 2011 8:53 pm

FUDU wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
FUDU wrote:Sure Miami has an easier road b/c they have more of what most teams do not have 1 of, super studs. I mean way to go out on a limb to suggest they'll win one sooner. But Miami isn't necessarily going to retain youth while doing so if they take a long time to in fact do so, without some creative GMing. The Cavaliers route will more likely have to look like a Piston title team than the usual NBA formula, but from crap to a decent shot at a title isn't a 5 year swing either. Plenty of variable to push it either way.


Dude, the OP was this...

When LeBron left, Gilbert promised he would win a championship before LBJ does.

With LBJ still puckering up under stress, and the Cavs scoring the #1 and #4 picks, it could happen.


Try and stay focused on that wine and gold colored shit-tacular. Plenty of variables to push it one way or the other? Okay. I guess Delonte could hunt down LBJ and slit his throat and Eyenga could become Jordan.

But again, which side would you lay your money down on?

That's great and all but my reply was to the points you and John mentioned and to this line from Lead:
The Cleveland Cavs in the next 5 years will not be close to a championship - even if many of the draft picks pan out -
.

Pretty sure I never said the Cavaliers are a lock to win a title real soon. But nice to know that it is certain that they will not be close to one in 5 yrs even with 2 of the top 4 picks this year and a very possible lottery pick next year. If I'm being vague by saying things can go either way than Lead is his Vagueness, and I guess we need to define close.


Sure thing. Just grab Durant and Westbrook at 1 and 4 and then give it 4 years and see what ya got.

;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby googleeph2 » Wed May 18, 2011 9:19 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Gilbert is still an angry and irrational midget OJ, so BAH


George Steinbrenner Jr. GSJr.


GSJr. gonna be relentless. He'll be a punchline. He'll fly off the cuff.

But as I say, he'll not consider success to be based on the bottom line.

GSJr. won't just fade away as a loser.

It's personal, and I wouldn't want it any other way.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed May 18, 2011 11:28 pm

Leave out the Cavs historical ineptness, if it makes things clearer. (Although when they're on practically a 40 year heater it can creep into a mind)

It was being inferred in this thread that Gilbert may be right. To that point I offer this:

One team is on the brink of a title TODAY. A bit of an underdog - but no matter the opinion, they are one of four left. This same team has the personel signed that would lead one to believe they can be in at least this position the next several years.

One team is coming off a 19 win season. The team needs a player at practically every GD position. It has zero stars, let alone superstars. It has high draft picks.

I choose number one as the team first to a championship all day, every day. And I would assume rational thinkers would do the same.

Clear enough FUDU, or is that too vague as well?
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 18, 2011 11:30 pm

googleeph2 wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Gilbert is still an angry and irrational midget OJ, so BAH


George Steinbrenner Jr. GSJr.


GSJr. gonna be relentless. He'll be a punchline. He'll fly off the cuff.

But as I say, he'll not consider success to be based on the bottom line.

GSJr. won't just fade away as a loser.

It's personal, and I wouldn't want it any other way.


Steinbrenner would have sold the team before he would have supported a hard cap. Gilbert is supporting one. Terrible analogy. And Gilbert isn't worth all that much money, just kept reinvesting the LBJ profits thinking it would keep him here instead of focusing on building a team from the ground up.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby diminishingskills » Thu May 19, 2011 8:53 am

leadpipe wrote:It was being inferred in this thread that Gilbert may be right. To that point I offer this:

One team is on the brink of a title TODAY. A bit of an underdog - but no matter the opinion, they are one of four left. This same team has the personel signed that would lead one to believe they can be in at least this position the next several years.

One team is coming off a 19 win season. The team needs a player at practically every GD position. It has zero stars, let alone superstars. It has high draft picks.

I choose number one as the team first to a championship all day, every day. And I would assume rational thinkers would do the same.

Clear enough FUDU, or is that too vague as well?


Mike, that wasn't the OP's point, and I don't think it was Donny's point either. Here's what the OP said:

When LeBron left, Gilbert promised he would win a championship before LBJ does. With LBJ still puckering up under stress, and the Cavs scoring the #1 and #4 picks, it could happen. If LBJ's buddies don't carry him, the Heat may never win it all. And if the Cavs play their cards right, they could be 3-5 years away.


I don't think anybody seriously believes that the Cavs will get to title contender status before the Heat do. After all, the Heat are already there. But I think it's a very fair question to ask whether this Heat team will win any titles. If they don't, then Gilbert's prophecy wins by default. (Maybe not technically -- a fat 37 year old LBJ could latch on with the 2022 version of today's Celtics/Spurs and back his way into a ring -- but that's different than LBJ leading a team to a title.) And after a year that has been a giant shit sandwich for the Cavs, it's nice to finally have some optimism that the team's fortunes are turning around. YMMV.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu May 19, 2011 9:16 am

diminishingskills wrote:
leadpipe wrote:It was being inferred in this thread that Gilbert may be right. To that point I offer this:

One team is on the brink of a title TODAY. A bit of an underdog - but no matter the opinion, they are one of four left. This same team has the personel signed that would lead one to believe they can be in at least this position the next several years.

One team is coming off a 19 win season. The team needs a player at practically every GD position. It has zero stars, let alone superstars. It has high draft picks.

I choose number one as the team first to a championship all day, every day. And I would assume rational thinkers would do the same.

Clear enough FUDU, or is that too vague as well?


Mike, that wasn't the OP's point, and I don't think it was Donny's point either. Here's what the OP said:

When LeBron left, Gilbert promised he would win a championship before LBJ does. With LBJ still puckering up under stress, and the Cavs scoring the #1 and #4 picks, it could happen. If LBJ's buddies don't carry him, the Heat may never win it all. And if the Cavs play their cards right, they could be 3-5 years away.


I don't think anybody seriously believes that the Cavs will get to title contender status before the Heat do. After all, the Heat are already there. But I think it's a very fair question to ask whether this Heat team will win any titles. If they don't, then Gilbert's prophecy wins by default. (Maybe not technically -- a fat 37 year old LBJ could latch on with the 2022 version of today's Celtics/Spurs and back his way into a ring -- but that's different than LBJ leading a team to a title.) And after a year that has been a giant shit sandwich for the Cavs, it's nice to finally have some optimism that the team's fortunes are turning around. YMMV.


"With LBJ still puckering up under stress, and the Cavs scoring the #1 and #4 picks, it could happen."

To the point Lebron puckering under stress I would ask what playoffs he's been watching? And, for that matter, aside from last season, what playoffs he has watched.

To the point of the one and four picks, the history of the league shows us it'll take much more than that.

Your point John, is much different. We can certainly have a rational debate/argument as to if the Heat will win a title.

So, the OP's post, to me, seemed to imply Gilbert could be correct in his letter. I would deem it as laughable as the day it was written - fueled by anger.

Then you have posts following that claim the "Heat are facing uphill battles" and "last night put them in the rear view"........just these grasps of hope, ignoring a cold reality.

Then they win last night and there are posts about Lebron's "slop shots" going in etc.

It's enough already.

How bout this, why don't we concentrate on the Cavs, and their progress, without saying irrational shit about the Heat and LeBron. I've been saying all along - forget about that shit - it's over. It ain't doin' people any good, and frankly, it's making many sound like about the biggest boobs ever.

Lebron is a fantastic player. The Heat have at least a decent chance to win titles the next several years. Those are FACT.

Lebron F'd us over, and is an asshole. FACT.

I don't really care anymore, and some others need to get over it as well, cause it's causing them not to think straight.

Ray Lewis, Curt Schilling, Reggie Jackson, Bill Laimbeer & IT and on and on and on. Just enormous assholes that won it all. It happens. If them being assholes made them worse on the field they wouldn't a won. Turns out being good, and an asshole doesn't hurt anyone that much.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Spin » Thu May 19, 2011 9:45 am

e0y2e3 wrote:Again, the West teams are better than the Bulls.

And this is one of your dumbest threads ever Spin, kudos.

In a superstar less draft we are proclaiming LBJ and Wade dead (even with a worst case CBA, Bosh goes, those two are together for the long haul) because we got a good to very good but not elite PG prospect and a raw big? Which EOD is what this team is ending up with, an above average PG prospect and a raw prospect. Which, of course, hopefully plugs 2 of the 5 positions they need help at.

Dayamn, I want some of what you’re smoking.

What’s next, Andy Marte leading the Indians to the world series?

Stick to your stupid car racing sports and Akron soccer. It suits you better.


It's a good thing that third string center brought the Heat out of its funk last night, because LeChoke wasn't capable of it. My god, Spoelstra was throwing everybody out there, hoping to find someone, anyone, to pull the Heat out of it's spin. He was looking for a uniform for the hot dog vender. He has assistant coaches looking for a nearby D League game they could raid.

We know LeBron's game as well as anyone. Big game, overpowering opponent, LBJ gets constipated and needs someone else to bring the game back. He was hoping Wade or Bosh was that person. Shit would could have got Udonis for a song if we knew that's all we needed.

And if I had a penny for everytime I had to listen to a soccer fan complain about how boring pro football was, I could buy the Crew and move them to your front yard.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Spin » Thu May 19, 2011 9:48 am

fundamentals wrote:Here is something I can't figure out. While LBJ was here, they were a contender. He played with a variety of poo poo platters during his tenure here and they won nada. There are some that will say the Heat won't be able to get it done which might be very true but ummmmmmmm D Wade is better than any other guy that the Cavaliers ever had paired with MeBron and they won't be a contender, why?


Contender? Yes.

Champions? I think they're very vulnerable.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Spin » Thu May 19, 2011 10:21 am

leadpipe wrote:To the point Lebron puckering under stress I would ask what playoffs he's been watching? And, for that matter, aside from last season, what playoffs he has watched.


I can answer that. Game One. The first quarter of Game Two, before Spoelstra got Udonis out of the museum, dusted him off, and he actually brought the game back to the Heat. Something LBJ can't do.

Then there's the Celtics game last year. Very un-Michael-like.

To the point of the one and four picks, the history of the league shows us it'll take much more than that.


Thus all of the cap room (that Eyesore keeps thrashing Gilbert for).

Your point John, is much different. We can certainly have a rational debate/argument as to if the Heat will win a title.


Same GD thing...

Ray Lewis, Curt Schilling, Reggie Jackson, Bill Laimbeer & IT and on and on and on. Just enormous assholes that won it all. It happens. If them being assholes made them worse on the field they wouldn't a won. Turns out being good, and an asshole doesn't hurt anyone that much.


Until LBJ shows up when the going gets tough, he's just a great regular season asshole, with a tight sphincter when it really mans something.

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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby fundamentals » Thu May 19, 2011 10:31 am

Spin wrote:It's a good thing that third string center brought the Heat out of its funk last night, because LeChoke wasn't capable of it. My god, Spoelstra was throwing everybody out there, hoping to find someone, anyone, to pull the Heat out of it's spin. He was looking for a uniform for the hot dog vender. He has assistant coaches looking for a nearby D League game they could raid.

We know LeBron's game as well as anyone. Big game, overpowering opponent, LBJ gets constipated and needs someone else to bring the game back. He was hoping Wade or Bosh was that person. Shit would could have got Udonis for a song if we knew that's all we needed.



What's it matter who helped the Heat win that game last night? Last time I checked anyone on that roster could, in theory, help them win. Last night it was Haslem. Haslem before he was injured was a pretty important player and serviceable one too. He has come back from a pretty serious injury and got it done last night.

Now, to say LBJ was waiting for help is laughable. The guy had a good game. Again, I know he's a doofus and an egomaniac but it doesn't change his skill set. Did you actually watch the last few minutes? I didn't see D Wade take the game over. It was LeBron. I believe the pro wrassler Ric Flair once said "you don't have to like it but learn to love it cuz it's the best thing goin' wooooooooooooooooo!" For a few minutes again last night, he made it tough to stomach again, but he did it.

They don't win that game without MeBron. Same guys who use to wax poetic about his abilities and that he was the greatest now say he's a choker and he sucks and he's no good. Come onnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn. ::doh::
"It's all about winning for me, and I think the Cavs are committed to doing that," he said. "But at the same time I've given myself options to this point, and like I said before, me and my team, we have a game plan that we're going to execute, and we'll see what we get."

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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu May 19, 2011 10:33 am

You should stick to college soccer Spin. You have more passion and knowledge in that regard.

James has closed out Games 4 and 5 in against the Celtics as well as Game 2 last night.

Is he doing it because he's fresh and doesn't have to do it all himself? Probably. That's un-Michael-like really?

The same Michael who won nothing til another HoF and Top 50 player got there in Pippen and who needed the top 3-point shooter of all time in Kerr to help get him another one?

The same Michael that played with HoFers Pippen and Rodman for a couple more titles even later?

Shit. Like I said. College soccer needs a voice.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Orenthal » Thu May 19, 2011 10:40 am

I feel so much less hate after getting those picks.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu May 19, 2011 10:57 am

There are some long posts in this thread. So, before I waste time reading it could someone tell me...Is this thread an argument about whether the Cavs (with the 1 & 4 pick in the 2011 draft) now have as good or better chance than the Heat (with LeBron and Wade) of winning an NBA championship?

And is this discussion actually happening WHILE the Heat are playing in the ECF?

Thanks. An answer could save me a lot of time here.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Orenthal » Thu May 19, 2011 11:05 am

Like religion and politics sports are hardly rational. Nothing wrong with feeling good about the Cavaliers, and hating the Heat, though it skews a logic.

Until one or the other happens, the debate is about whats likely to happen, and that's not likely to be settled till it does.

;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu May 19, 2011 11:12 am

Orenthal wrote:Like religion and politics sports are hardly rational. Nothing wrong with feeling good about the Cavaliers, and hating the Heat, though it skews a logic.

Until one or the other happens, the debate is about whats likely to happen, and that's not likely to be settled till it does.

;-) ;) :wink:


Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely ecstatic about the lottery and think we're going to get 2 pretty good players. I fucking love it. I'm excited as hell.

But we aren't going to get Lebron and Wade caliber players, so we still will be less likely than the Heat to win. It's not impossible, I know, but if I'm betting my life on it I'm taking the Heat.

I mean, right? Isn't thinking the Cavs are now as close or closer than the Heat kind of...bananas?
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Orenthal » Thu May 19, 2011 11:16 am

No doubt agree, but I think the OP was thinking a bit more long term. Given the whole premise is simply us before you. Advantage still Heat... But until they win it you never know...!!!
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Spin » Thu May 19, 2011 11:44 am

Now, to say LBJ was waiting for help is laughable. The guy had a good game. Again, I know he's a doofus and an egomaniac but it doesn't change his skill set. Did you actually watch the last few minutes?


You should stick to college soccer Spin. You have more passion and knowledge in that regard.

James has closed out Games 4 and 5 in against the Celtics as well as Game 2 last night.


Maybe I should because what I saw in game one, and in the first period last night, was a man lost in the woods, unable to unpucker his ass hole, until someone else brought things under control.

Same as the Boston series last year, except there he didn't have Udonis to bring the game under control for him.

But you can't simply take an objective look at a question (not even an opinion) and just answer it. That wouldn't (flex) your egos, just answering a question.

And if you haven't figured it out yet, I leave that avatar up just to piss you fucks off. :lmfao: Six months later and it still gets under your skin. :nanner:
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu May 19, 2011 12:00 pm

Spin wrote:And if you haven't figured it out yet, I leave that avatar up just to piss you fucks off. :lmfao: Six months later and it still gets under your skin. :nanner:


Just another shitty take.

I have no issue with your love of soccer. I've become a big fan myself (not necessarily of college soccer but the game in general) and never even noticed the avatar to tell the truth. I spent two days at the State Cup in Lodi last weekend watching evidence of what Akron soccer has done in terms of generating interest locally.

So if you're wrong about that....

BTW- because I use stats solely when I need them to back up my point even if I hate the statistic itself, Udonis Haslem was minus-11 in +/- last night.

I don't know wat that says really but it should drive some conversation.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby scrambler » Thu May 19, 2011 12:05 pm

peeker643 wrote:
scrambler wrote:It was pure happenstance the Marlins won in '97 and not the Indians.


No it wasn't. It was pure happenstance the Indians were even there.

The Marlins won 92 games that season to the Indians 86 and then they beat a 101 win Braves team badly in the NLCS.

They had an all star and GG catcher as well as ridiculous years from Bonilla, Sheffield and Alou.

They also had Kevin Brown, Alex Fernandez, Al Leiter and Livan Hernandez and a tremendous closer in Nenn.

That wasn't happenstance. That was better talent ultimately catching up and winning in dramatic fashion but it wasn't happenstance.

No one is arguing whether or not they enjoyed the 94-01 Indians. But they didn't win shit.

I'll take the Marlins "happenstance" that apparently happenstanced twice in a decade as opposed to '94-'01.

Like I said, maybe you differ in sustained periods of 'good' as opposed to a couple titles.


Well, I disagree. Alex Fernandez got hurt if you remember in the NLCS and didn't even pitch in the WS which I thought is why of the 3 teams the INdians played in that post season, the Marlins were the worst of the 3. Those Indians teams won 2 AL pennants. That is not shit in my opinion. I'm a 45 year old who has seen zero championships in my lifetime....those teams actually did win somthing. I take anything.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Spin » Thu May 19, 2011 12:11 pm

peeker643 wrote:Just another shitty take.


So this is just a forum version of the Jim Rome show.

Know the "correct" opinions to have
Have a take
Don't suck (translated: DO NOT go against the "correct" opinions. EVER.)

Not a sports talk forum. Where you can throw ideas out and ask for opinions. Just a place for everyone else to massage the egos of clones.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu May 19, 2011 12:14 pm

scrambler wrote:Well, I disagree. Alex Fernandez got hurt if you remember in the NLCS and didn't even pitch in the WS which I thought is why of the 3 teams the INdians played in that post season, the Marlins were the worst of the 3. Those Indians teams won 2 AL pennants. That is not shit in my opinion. I'm a 45 year old who has seen zero championships in my lifetime....those teams actually did win somthing. I take anything.


Well, we can disagree. then. I'm roughly the same age and if you don't win the last game you play in the postseason you came up short.

That Marlins team was a collection of stars and talent. They were the better team. Fernandez got hurt only to see a 20 yr old rookie in Hernandez go 9-2 and win the WS MVP Award.

The '97 Indians were vastly different than the '95 Indians as it was. The Indians never had a lead in the series and relied on Chad Ogea and Jaret Wright, neither of whom ever captured the success they had in the '97 post season again in their careers.

That's happenstance. Not the better, more talented team never trailing in the series and ultimately winning it.

Your mileage may vary (ymmv)
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby scrambler » Thu May 19, 2011 12:17 pm

And I understand your point about the '97 team, they did catch lightning in a bottle and were likely the worst of those Indian teams. You go to the bottom of the 9th with the lead in game 7, you're pretty darn close.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu May 19, 2011 12:21 pm

Spin, substitute 'shitty' for 'uneducated' or 'presumptuous' or continue to cock around and whine. Or, if you're miserable, go away, I really don't care.

FTR, you said the avatar was up there to drive me crazy or drive us crazy or whatever. I told you that I didn't notice it and it doesn't bother me. Therefore you were wrong as it relates to at least me.

I understand that's a ridiculous and foreign concept to you. But you were wrong. So deal or don't man. I'm not a soccer hater. I love watching the game. I have it on every effing night at 11 or 1130 on 1318 and I haul my youngest's ass 40 minutes away and back three times a week because she loves it too.

You have the avatar up there because you like it and relate to it. That's excellent. It's also about all you offer. The LBJ take is horrible if you've watched the Heat's last 3 wins.

It just is. Not getting into a pissing contest because you're sensitive about soccer.

Peace.



Spin wrote:
peeker643 wrote:Just another shitty take.


So this is just a forum version of the Jim Rome show.

Know the "correct" opinions to have
Have a take
Don't suck (translated: DO NOT go against the "correct" opinions. EVER.)

Not a sports talk forum. Where you can throw ideas out and ask for opinions. Just a place for everyone else to massage the egos of clones.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby fundamentals » Thu May 19, 2011 12:42 pm

Spin wrote:Maybe I should because what I saw in game one, and in the first period last night, was a man lost in the woods, unable to unpucker his ass hole, until someone else brought things under control.

Same as the Boston series last year, except there he didn't have Udonis to bring the game under control for him.

But you can't simply take an objective look at a question (not even an opinion) and just answer it. That wouldn't (flex) your egos, just answering a question.

And if you haven't figured it out yet, I leave that avatar up just to piss you fucks off. :lmfao: Six months later and it still gets under your skin. :nanner:


1. I don't care about soccer. Congratulations to you and your university on a great accomplishment.
2. Citing the fact that you apparently didn't watch more than the first quarter last night nullifies any "take" you can make on the play of LBJ.
3. What happened last year doesn't matter now as far as his play goes.
4. to get back onto the original topic, two draft picks at top of the upcoming NBA draft will help the Cavaliers but certainly will not put them in the upper echelon of teams for the next couple of years
5. having an opinion is one thing, being totally wrong and resorting to name calling is another
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Spin » Thu May 19, 2011 1:42 pm

fundamentals wrote:2. Citing the fact that you apparently didn't watch more than the first quarter last night nullifies any "take" you can make on the play of LBJ.


Welcome class to Hooked On Phonics course "Reading Comprehension 101".

Fundamentals, did you miss the part where I said "until Udonis brought the game under control for him", or did you just ignore it? Nowhere does it say I just watched the first quarter, I was simply pointing out LeBron's long history of puckering up when the game is out of control.

Everybody, I have a couple questions. There are prizes involved.

Whoever can point out where I brought up soccer or Zips soccer in a non-soccer forum gets an extra milk before nap. Only Europhobes bring that shit up.

And this is for everyone. Pay attention, whoever gets it first gets a shiny star sticker for their shirt.


What's the first word in the title of this thread?

Concentrate. I know it's not your strong point. But someone will notice it, probably be accident.

And next time I start a thread, someone remind me that I hate Jim Rome, other wannabe thugs, takes, and ass holes that can't see past their preconceived realities to actually READ a post.

:fu:
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby fundamentals » Thu May 19, 2011 1:51 pm

Spin,

Maybe Gilbert was right? And, maybe he wasn't.
You say yes. I say no.
Reading is, as you say, is fundamental.
But, sooo is SPELLING.
GILBERT is spelled with an L, just sayin' :salute:
"It's all about winning for me, and I think the Cavs are committed to doing that," he said. "But at the same time I've given myself options to this point, and like I said before, me and my team, we have a game plan that we're going to execute, and we'll see what we get."

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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Spin » Thu May 19, 2011 1:54 pm

fundamentals wrote:Spin,

Maybe Gilbert was right? And, maybe he wasn't.
You say yes. I say no. The End.
Thanks. :salute: :group:


I said Maybe. ;-) ;) :wink: Haven't decided, didn't know I needed to. Just sparking some conversation on the topic.

The educated answers I got where "Yeah, maybe." or "I'm sure the Heat will win one first". Or "LBJ will back into one in his pre-retirement years."

Actually good discussion, hidden in bits and pieces between the usual waste of bandwidth bullshit.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu May 19, 2011 2:02 pm

Spin wrote:
fundamentals wrote:Spin,

Maybe Gilbert was right? And, maybe he wasn't.
You say yes. I say no. The End.
Thanks. :salute: :group:


I said Maybe. ;-) ;) :wink: Haven't decided, didn't know I needed to. Just sparking some conversation on the topic.

The educated answers I got where "Yeah, maybe." or "I'm sure the Heat will win one first". Or "LBJ will back into one in his pre-retirement years."

Actually good discussion, hidden in bits and pieces between the usual waste of bandwidth bullshit.



Terrible take regarding LBJ's playoffs thus far by an Akron soccer fan-bois who misspelled 'Gilbert' in the subject line and called everyone else dumb.

That's how I'll remember this one when it goes in the library.

:tfh:
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu May 19, 2011 2:22 pm

I, for one, am proud to have contibuted. And I'm going to stick by my well thought out and articulated "this is bananas" take.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Rat_Tail » Thu May 19, 2011 2:40 pm

Can't you guys wait until the fucker is actually eliminated before posting stuff like this?

You're jinxing the fuck out of it.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby daddywags » Thu May 19, 2011 3:07 pm

I, for one, am at peace with this now. I will still root against Miami and hope they don't win it all, but I've come to peace with it if it happens. This is Kyrie Irving's team now, not LeBron's, and I'm ready to move forward with that. Call me what you will.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Orenthal » Thu May 19, 2011 4:51 pm

^That seems to be where I am getting. There is inertia to go along with platitudes now. I like inertia. I think I have gotten closer to Lead's "ideal" then the pure hater I was before. Was more fun being a hater, have to admit that.

Also James did have a shit Game 1, and a great Game 2. What he did in the Boston series doesn't mean jackshit, just like last year, or Pistons '07. Him taking over a game, hell a series, has happened. Leading, hell, just winning a title has not.

Spin don't let them upset you. If I got that upset, or whatever you guys want to call these melting douchefests, everytime someone called my takes stoopid, well it would be alot of something.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby FUDU » Thu May 19, 2011 5:37 pm

leadpipe wrote:Leave out the Cavs historical ineptness, if it makes things clearer. (Although when they're on practically a 40 year heater it can creep into a mind)

It was being inferred in this thread that Gilbert may be right. To that point I offer this:

One team is on the brink of a title TODAY. A bit of an underdog - but no matter the opinion, they are one of four left. This same team has the personel signed that would lead one to believe they can be in at least this position the next several years.

One team is coming off a 19 win season. The team needs a player at practically every GD position. It has zero stars, let alone superstars. It has high draft picks.

I choose number one as the team first to a championship all day, every day. And I would assume rational thinkers would do the same.

Clear enough FUDU, or is that too vague as well?
Well no shit Leadstradamus, and I'm not trying to be a dick here. All I said and stand by is that just b/c the Heat are in position to contend (for say minimum 3-5) and the Cavaliers are in phase one of the rebuild doesn't equate to the Cavaliers will have no shot for at least 5 years. Especially since we got a pretty significant small step this week with the lottery. Doesn't guarantee anything either way but going from broke to sitting pretty does not have to take 5 years.

IMO you are basing way to much of Lead's opinion on our history, which as I stated is irrelevant in all this. Plus you are assuming the new regime will make all the same mistakes the old one did, if you believe TMLP calls every shot all the time then fine (can't say I blame you) but there is no way to ever know that for sure...until the BaldHeadofDannyFerry&Roker write a tell all book.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Spin » Thu May 19, 2011 5:46 pm

Orenthal wrote:Spin don't let them upset you. If I got that upset, or whatever you guys want to call these melting douchefests, everytime someone called my takes stoopid, well it would be alot of something.


True, it's just a different flavor of douche than I'm use to on other boards. On the other hand, hypotheticals throw them for a loop too.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Thu May 19, 2011 5:51 pm

Kick in the door, wavin the four-four
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Ziner » Thu May 19, 2011 5:52 pm

What flavors does douche come in?
In the end, we're all "only for a limited time," you guys.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Orenthal » Thu May 19, 2011 5:56 pm

^Peeker (thought admitting meltdowns was a positive, no it got you on this irrelevant and meaningless list), JB, Rat Tail, Ea$t Side, Timmuh, EdgeWaterJoe/ProgRocker/HarveyPekar/PROS(still don't buy it), sure am I missing many who have had meltdowns on either tOBR or here.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu May 19, 2011 6:55 pm

Orenthal wrote:^Peeker (thought admitting meltdowns was a positive, no it got you on this irrelevant and meaningless list), JB, Rat Tail, Ea$t Side, Timmuh, EdgeWaterJoe/ProgRocker/HarveyPekar/PROS(still don't buy it), sure am I missing many who have had meltdowns on either tOBR or here.



You lost me brotha. But maybe you mean what I said about the NBA, etc and not watching? There's a whole lotta shit above this ^ my man ;-) ;) :wink:

I didn't hit the core last August or whenever that was exactly and I still hang onto the fact that anyone here knows what I was talking about. But I ain't beyond admitting to parts of me dripping down the cone when it happens.

Anyone who says they haven't either doesn't have the posts in or the ability to come correct.

I was as much wrong as right back in that post. I was right about the player and wrong about the game. Lee was right about the game and the player but IMO wrong about geography.

It went where it went, not my proudest day, but I'll own it. Shit, it'll happen again at some point. ;-) ;) :wink:
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"None of us is as dumb as all of us."


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