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Maybe Gilbert was right...

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Maybe Gilbert was right...

Unread postby Spin » Wed May 18, 2011 9:07 am

When LeBron left, Gilbert promised he would win a championship before LBJ does.

With LBJ still puckering up under stress, and the Cavs scoring the #1 and #4 picks, it could happen. If LBJ's buddies don't carry him, the Heat may never win it all. And if the Cavs play their cards right, they could be 3-5 years away.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby furls » Wed May 18, 2011 9:43 am

Throw in the fact that Miami's "Big Three" will stop being a "bargain" in the next couple of years and your point is actually pretty well made. Bosh, Wade and James only cost 42M this year, but their incrementally increase over the next 4 years to the point where they will eat up 63M of cap space. What else will they be able to afford? Who knows, good draft this year from the Cavs, bad year and subsequent lottery pick in 11/12 with a very impressive class and the Cavs could be very young, deep and in expensive enough to add some great pieces for 12/13 as Jamison's contract expires and Baron Davis' last year makes him very movable.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby swerb » Wed May 18, 2011 9:45 am

LOL ... hope you're right. Wouldn't bet Rat Tail's money on it though.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby fundamentals » Wed May 18, 2011 9:47 am

Spin wrote:When LeBron left, Gilbert promised he would win a championship before LBJ does.

With LBJ still puckering up under stress, and the Cavs scoring the #1 and #4 picks, it could happen. If LBJ's buddies don't carry him, the Heat may never win it all. And if the Cavs play their cards right, they could be 3-5 years away.


The bump in enthusiasm is understandable but then reality sets in for me. I don't see the Cavaliers winning one before LBJ. Neither entity may win one during the time MeBron is in South Beach. I don't see the Cavaliers on the cusp of greatness in three to five years, but that's me.
"It's all about winning for me, and I think the Cavs are committed to doing that," he said. "But at the same time I've given myself options to this point, and like I said before, me and my team, we have a game plan that we're going to execute, and we'll see what we get."

"We had a great time together."
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Wed May 18, 2011 9:51 am

A lot depends. How high is Irving's ceiling and how fast can he get there? What do we do at #4? Where do we draft next year? What can we get in trades? What's the next CBA like?

That said, Miami's got problems they'll more than likely be climbing uphill to fix. That also said, last night went a long way to putting the Heat in my rear-view mirror. I hope it did the same for Gilbert.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby swerb » Wed May 18, 2011 9:51 am

Bottom line - tonights game is huge.

I'll be cheering for the Bulls like a man on death row cheering for a pardon.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby furls » Wed May 18, 2011 9:56 am

The Bulls are officially my 2nd favorite NBA team because that team is the biggest roadblock in Miami's championship runs for the next five years. The C's are done, the Lakers are done, it is really all on the Bulls now and I think they have the pieces to do it.

I am optimistic about the Cavs future as much by their future contract situation as I am by their lottery picks. Will they win championships? You have to be good and you have to be lucky.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Wed May 18, 2011 10:05 am

As a point of reference, its been almost four years since Durant and Noah were drafted.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 18, 2011 10:06 am

Again, the West teams are better than the Bulls.

And this is one of your dumbest threads ever Spin, kudos.

In a superstar less draft we are proclaiming LBJ and Wade dead (even with a worst case CBA, Bosh goes, those two are together for the long haul) because we got a good to very good but not elite PG prospect and a raw big? Which EOD is what this team is ending up with, an above average PG prospect and a raw prospect. Which, of course, hopefully plugs 2 of the 5 positions they need help at.

Dayamn, I want some of what you’re smoking.

What’s next, Andy Marte leading the Indians to the world series?

Stick to your stupid car racing sports and Akron soccer. It suits you better.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed May 18, 2011 10:16 am

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:A lot depends. How high is Irving's ceiling and how fast can he get there? What do we do at #4? Where do we draft next year? What can we get in trades? What's the next CBA like?

That said, Miami's got problems they'll more than likely be climbing uphill to fix. That also said, last night went a long way to putting the Heat in my rear-view mirror. I hope it did the same for Gilbert.



This is awesome and so very TCF/Cleveland.

Call me crazy, call me nuts, but I'd still rather be Miami and I'd trade their present situation for the Cavs every day of the week and 12 times on Sunday.

Jesus.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Wed May 18, 2011 10:36 am

peeker643 wrote:Call me crazy, call me nuts, but I'd still rather be Miami and I'd trade their present situation for the Cavs every day of the week and 12 times on Sunday.


No way, this is so very TCF/Cleveland.

He ain't comin' back, and frankly I wouldn't want a self-entitled chump like him back.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 18, 2011 10:40 am

I will say this, no matter what kind of a player Kyrie ends up being (and lets be real, he will at least be a league average PG), Cleveland is going to absolutely love his non-LBJness. Kids character is through the roof and after The Decision the city will embrace the hell out of that.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby fundamentals » Wed May 18, 2011 10:42 am

Here is something I can't figure out. While LBJ was here, they were a contender. He played with a variety of poo poo platters during his tenure here and they won nada. There are some that will say the Heat won't be able to get it done which might be very true but ummmmmmmm D Wade is better than any other guy that the Cavaliers ever had paired with MeBron and they won't be a contender, why?

Having draft picks and some good ones for this season is tremendous and may very well be a shot in the arm so much needed in Ctown but to discount/discredit/dismiss the Heat as being a team to reckon with in the years to come is laughable. I hope Gilbert's prediction would come to fruition about winning a title before MeBron, but it ain't gonna be easy.
"It's all about winning for me, and I think the Cavs are committed to doing that," he said. "But at the same time I've given myself options to this point, and like I said before, me and my team, we have a game plan that we're going to execute, and we'll see what we get."

"We had a great time together."
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Wed May 18, 2011 10:45 am

e0y2e3 wrote:I will say this, no matter what kind of a player Kyrie ends up being (and lets be real, he will at least be a league average PG), Cleveland is going to absolutely love his non-LBJness. Kids character is through the roof and after The Decision the city will embrace the hell out of that.


^ This. I hope the kid can hold up against what could be unreasonable expectations.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed May 18, 2011 10:54 am

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
peeker643 wrote:Call me crazy, call me nuts, but I'd still rather be Miami and I'd trade their present situation for the Cavs every day of the week and 12 times on Sunday.


No way, this is so very TCF/Cleveland.

He ain't comin' back, and frankly I wouldn't want a self-entitled chump like him back.


I don't care that he's not coming back. They have two of the best players in the game and three of the top 25 in the game regardless of how big a douchebag each may be.

Gimme that over your sack of magic beans and hope.

I'll take Roethlisberger the person/QB over a good christian kid who respects women and can't throw too.

I HOPE Irving is the Durant of PGs with his character and ability.

I also HOPE he doesn't flame out and I HOPE his toe doesn't fall off and I HOPE that the guy with the fourth pick is a viable NBA player and I HOPE Baron Davis isn't an a-hole and I HOPE Eyenga actually ultimately does more than jump and I HOPE Samardo Samuels is a thug enforcer at his realistic 10th-12th spot on the roster and I HOPE that the Heat don't win 4 of the next 6 titles while the Cavs avoid a record losing streak and compile more ifs.

You guys are funny.

Seriously.

Great that they got the #1 and #4 for sure. If that's better than being a legit and likely NBA Finals favorite for the next six years I guess it's my prioroties that need adjusted.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Ziner » Wed May 18, 2011 10:58 am

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:I will say this, no matter what kind of a player Kyrie ends up being (and lets be real, he will at least be a league average PG), Cleveland is going to absolutely love his non-LBJness. Kids character is through the roof and after The Decision the city will embrace the hell out of that.


^ This. I hope the kid can hold up against what could be unreasonable expectations.


Another added bonus of getting two high picks. HOPEFULLY the expectations can be spread out and tempered. This kid is not LBJ, chances are both of them combined won't be, but having two high draft picks hopefully spliting attention will do Kyrie some good and ease some pressure. I do love what I hear about this kid's character.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby jb » Wed May 18, 2011 11:05 am

Spin wrote:When LeBron left, Gilbert promised he would win a championship before LBJ does.

With LBJ still puckering up under stress, and the Cavs scoring the #1 and #4 picks, it could happen.



Alas, had we had these picks in 2003, then yeah.

Need similar lukc next lotto and more than anything, more good moves by Dunphy that fit a coherent philosophy. Not an espoused desire to win with defense and loading up on Mo Williams, amon ones, and yellshell.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Wed May 18, 2011 11:05 am

Sure, why not. Miami would just have to keep choking deep in the playoffs for the next 5-6 years, Irving would have to be an All Star type, #4 guy would have to be a solid starter, we'd have to stink for the next 2-3 years, end up with top 5 picks, and hit on them, we'd have to use all of our current trade assets perfectly, and our current roster would have to net at least 2 championship caliber rotation guys. Piece of cake!

I'm just glad we're trending towards relevant basketball in the next few years again.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby jb » Wed May 18, 2011 11:08 am

e0y2e3 wrote:I will say this, no matter what kind of a player Kyrie ends up being (and lets be real, he will at least be a league average PG), Cleveland is going to absolutely love his non-LBJness. Kids character is through the roof and after The Decision the city will embrace the hell out of that.



So in 8 years he'll bid us a fond farewell for a major market / warm climate with class and apologize for not winning a title.

Yee haw.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby jb » Wed May 18, 2011 11:14 am

I'll take Roethlisberger the person/QB over a good christian kid who respects women and can't throw too.



But he also kills big ugly snakes. You gotta factor that in.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby fundamentals » Wed May 18, 2011 11:15 am

jb wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:So in 8 years he'll bid us a fond farewell for a major market / warm climate with class, SHAKE HANDS and apologize for not winning a title.


Fixed. :lmfao:
"It's all about winning for me, and I think the Cavs are committed to doing that," he said. "But at the same time I've given myself options to this point, and like I said before, me and my team, we have a game plan that we're going to execute, and we'll see what we get."

"We had a great time together."
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed May 18, 2011 11:22 am

"When a man with money meets a man with experience, the man with experience leaves with money and the man with money leaves with experience."
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby jb » Wed May 18, 2011 11:27 am




Proof eyesore doesn't know what he's talking about.

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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 18, 2011 11:31 am

Wow, talk about a nobody writing a lazy POS article?

“in his pime PG Mo Williams?!?!?!”

A bunch of ripped snippets from here and there, no mention that the Cavs payroll is toward the bottom of the leagues with Baron?!

No mention of Gilbert being pro small ass hard cap?

Again, Gilbert may spend whatever it takes to get back while running a deficit, HE HASN’T YET.

Fucking dumbass people.

Geezes Christ, He bought a lottery pick for less than ten million with a payroll that is about to bottom out after this year and he gets a medal for that?

Danny Ainge bought Rondo for $3MM, you guys oughta blow him too. This is common NBA practice. OKC spent well over $10MM rotating players in and out with their exception, but no Dan Gilbert is the bold money bags!

Also, SI must have found this guy on a street corner because I follow NBA writers as closely as the league and I haven’t even seen him before.

PS: Your team plays tonight JB.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed May 18, 2011 11:32 am

^Seemed like it was written by a RCF poster.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 18, 2011 11:34 am

BTW: this guy has no sources and is citing the same damn heresy re: Rip as the Cleveland press. Show Me The Money and I’ll believe.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Wed May 18, 2011 11:48 am

Can we give Gilbert credit for promoting Dunphy?
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed May 18, 2011 11:51 am

Of course. Well the guy won't give you anything outside of sports and corporate cliches, he needs to be judged on results. So far his moves are looking good at the time they are made, and with the benefit of hindsight, but its still a very small sample size.

Gilbert was just on tRBS, but I missed...

Doug Gottlieb coming up soon, and Tom Whithers at 12:30.

How about the Cavaliers moving the team??? LMAO morons.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 18, 2011 11:52 am

What? He ran Ferry out because he wanted to be involved in basketball ops and then hired the #3 guy so he could be involved?

That trade was nice, but The Talking Shirt Puppet has a long way to go to prove Gilbert’s hand isn’t running him from his anal cavity. Thank gawd they got #1 because the rumors were already spreading quickly about them being infatuated with Brandon Knight and him being their top non-number 1 target….
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Wed May 18, 2011 11:54 am

peeker643 wrote:I don't care that he's not coming back. They have two of the best players in the game and three of the top 25 in the game regardless of how big a douchebag each may be.

Gimme that over your sack of magic beans and hope.


Screw that, I'll take Chicago and OKC. And I'll take Aaron Rodgers over Rottenburger too.

And screw Scott Raab and his public boiling of LeQuit's bunny while I'm at it.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Ziner » Wed May 18, 2011 11:54 am

So you believe the Brandon Knight rumors and not the Rip Hamilton rumors. :thumb up:
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 18, 2011 11:57 am

The Rip rumors were at the same time as the Baron Davis rumors. No reputable person out there has been able to straight line report that Gilbert was trying to add both of them. If Cleveland had a beat reporter we would probably know the answer to this question, but we don’t so we are left with side talking bullshit being taken as truth.

The Knight (a guy whose UPSIDE is Jamal Crawford) rumors came from Scouts that have been spending months sitting with the Cavs and other orgs on a daily basis.

Credibility.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby hiko » Wed May 18, 2011 11:59 am

fundamentals wrote:Here is something I can't figure out. While LBJ was here, they were a contender. He played with a variety of poo poo platters during his tenure here and they won nada. There are some that will say the Heat won't be able to get it done which might be very true but ummmmmmmm D Wade is better than any other guy that the Cavaliers ever had paired with MeBron and they won't be a contender, why?

Having draft picks and some good ones for this season is tremendous and may very well be a shot in the arm so much needed in Ctown but to discount/discredit/dismiss the Heat as being a team to reckon with in the years to come is laughable. I hope Gilbert's prediction would come to fruition about winning a title before MeBron, but it ain't gonna be easy.


You're seeing why - no depth.

And it's not like that'll get any better. If the owners institute a hard cap (likely), then Bosh is gone, and they'll have to fill that roster every year with whatever they can afford after LBJ and Wade's salaries are counted. LBJ and Wade aren't parting ways anytime soon, they're still in love, and as long as Miami has them they'll be dangerous. But I have my doubts about whether a team that flawed in other positions/on the bench can win 4 rounds of playoffs.

This year might be their best chance to win it all... Boston got old and injured, Lakers got old and injured, Bosh still on team, Dallas and 2 teams that were 8 seeds last year only thing in their way... but it'll be a mighty tall task if they lose Game 2.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby HoodooMan » Wed May 18, 2011 12:12 pm

peeker643 wrote:I guess it's my prioroties that need adjusted.


Maybe.

Personally, I don't think it would be very fun to root for this Heat team, but then I stopped watching the Cavaliers several years before LBJ left because I didn't think it was fun rooting for him here either.

It's going to be fun rooting for Kyrie Irving. Whether or not anything else worth a damn ends up falling into place here.

Also, as a point of reference, Kobe's starting to break down. He's 32. If we get a long enough lockout, the Heat's next shot after this postseason might be with a 31-year-old D Wade. That "We got two Top 5 players and yoooouuuuuuu don't, neener, neener!" window might not last all that long.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 18, 2011 12:17 pm

Shame that OKC has not shot at a title with two 23 year olds in Durant and Westbrook and two 22 year olds in Serge and Harden. And that old bastard Perk at 27.

Nope, mid-market teams have no chance to mature.

Oh wait... that's right... the Hard Cap is going to gut that team.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed May 18, 2011 1:06 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:PS: Your team plays tonight JB.


Is JB flying a Bulls flag yet while dressed in Tribe gear? :hide:
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby scrambler » Wed May 18, 2011 1:26 pm

What Gilbert said is completely meaningless. It was simply stupid. All it did was give James cover for his nonsense for the national talking heads to gloat over. In the end it is completely meaningless going forward for either franchise. The next 3 to 4 years if the Heat stay healthy they have at least a 30 percent shot or so to win it all every year. The cavs have an absolute zero chance the next 3 or 4 years to win it all. Those are the plain facts. Gilbert wanted James back with every bone of his body despite his "quitting". James was really good for his NBA business and Gilbert didn't give a rat's ass that he quit plain and simple until that July day. Gilbert wanted to sign him again. Right now the Heat are legit contenders and the Cavs have to get very lucky with draft picks the next couple years. I hope Gilbert's right, but not very likely.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby diminishingskills » Wed May 18, 2011 1:50 pm

peeker643 wrote:This is awesome and so very TCF/Cleveland.

Call me crazy, call me nuts, but I'd still rather be Miami and I'd trade their present situation for the Cavs every day of the week and 12 times on Sunday.

Jesus.


Peeks, I get what you're saying. Let me ask you this, though:

Do you think the Heat will win a title in the next five years?

I can see why those who think they will think that. I happen to think they'll come up empty-handed.

The Heat are the best team in the league, one thru three. Problem is, you need eight to be championship caliber. The Heat have next to nothing in those four thru eight spots. Mike Bibby? A one-footed Haslem? A zero-footed Z? Please. They get some three point shooting from James Jones, and maybe some play from Chalmers (he of the 40% FG%, lest we forget). That's it. Chicago can run wave after wave of players at you, even if Rose-Boozer-Deng isn't quite on par with LBJ-Wade-Bosh.

And I don't see how it gets any better for Miami in the coming years. Assuming that the current CBA rules are extended in the next CBA (and as Hiko said upthread, there may well be a hard cap in the next CBA), they have the MLE to add more talent. That's it. They have one draft pick in the next three drafts. This team is not getting any better.

Meanwhile, Gilbert is following the exact right path for an owner with his strengths (money and the willingness to spend it) and weaknesses (a team in a smaller, older market that gets snow four months out of the year, making it an unattractive FA destination). It's the Oklahoma City model, adjusted to take advantage of Gilbert's willingness to spend.

The real challenge in the next year or two (especially after last night) will be resisting the temptation to say "now we're on the brink", and instead continuing to peddle the contracts of expiring veterans, taking on longer contracts of other veterans in return, and plucking a pick/young player or two as the cost of doing business. If the Cavs think that they will win with Kyrie/#4 pick/Jamo/Baron/etc., they are fooling themselves. They are one year into what will be a three to five year process (IF it all goes well).

Will it work? There's no guarantee. But there isn't any path to building a winner that DOES come with a guarantee, and this path makes more sense than any other.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 18, 2011 1:54 pm

It's simple really, Gilbert has to be patient and put a five year rebuild into effect (notice though, the angry little fuck still refuses to let anyone in the org use the word rebuild) and do everything the exact opposite of the way he has operated for the duration he has owned the team.

And for the 400th freaking time, OKC spent a lot of money buying draft picks too. Can we stop blowing Gilbert for spending less than $10MM on a payroll that is about to bottom out and is below the cap now?

Christ almighty. HE MAY BE WILLING TO DEFICIT SPEND BUT WE DON'T KNOW YET FOR THE 400TH TIME.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby hiko » Wed May 18, 2011 1:55 pm

What Gilbert said is completely meaningless. It was simply stupid. All it did was give James cover for his nonsense for the national talking heads to gloat over. In the end it is completely meaningless going forward for either franchise. The next 3 to 4 years if the Heat stay healthy they have at least a 30 percent shot or so to win it all every year. The cavs have an absolute zero chance the next 3 or 4 years to win it all. Those are the plain facts. Gilbert wanted James back with every bone of his body despite his "quitting". James was really good for his NBA business and Gilbert didn't give a rat's ass that he quit plain and simple until that July day. Gilbert wanted to sign him again. Right now the Heat are legit contenders and the Cavs have to get very lucky with draft picks the next couple years. I hope Gilbert's right, but not very likely.


Unless Miami wins it this year, I doubt either one (LBJ or Cavs) wins a championship for quite some time. Maybe LBJ will get one when he joins the Lakers at the back end of his career. Maybe he never wins one, and then Gilbert is right by default (since if the Cavs win a championship 50 years from now, it's still before James).

Right now, I put LBJ's chances at ever winning a ring at about 50%. I said all along that if he wanted the best chance to win championships, he should've joined the Bulls. But he didn't want to have to live up to the Real 23.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 18, 2011 1:58 pm

You guys do realize that a team with LBJ, Wade + scrubs is going to weather a hard cap better than teams like OKC, Memphis, LA, Dallas and NY, right?

Right?

We can start pasting who on those teams is paid what and what extensions are due to clarify this fact if we need to.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed May 18, 2011 2:01 pm

diminishingskills wrote:
peeker643 wrote:This is awesome and so very TCF/Cleveland.

Call me crazy, call me nuts, but I'd still rather be Miami and I'd trade their present situation for the Cavs every day of the week and 12 times on Sunday.

Jesus.


Peeks, I get what you're saying. Let me ask you this, though:

Do you think the Heat will win a title in the next five years?


I do think they will. I think they win more than one as a matter of fact. And at the very least they're an ECF-caliber team for the next 4-6 years.

The Cavs are not and will not be.

So I need someone to explain to me again why I should prefer to be the Cavs and not the Heat during that time.

Sorry- I give no credit for 'rebuilding the right way'. I can't tell you how many title-less years I've heard that phrase uttered.

Remember the groundbreaking and innovative way John Hart built the Tribe teams of the mid 90's? Yeah...I'd still rather be the simplistic and behind the times Braves and Marlins.

YMMV
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby diminishingskills » Wed May 18, 2011 2:37 pm

peeker643 wrote:
diminishingskills wrote:Do you think the Heat will win a title in the next five years?


I do think they will. I think they win more than one as a matter of fact. And at the very least they're an ECF-caliber team for the next 4-6 years.

The Cavs are not and will not be.

So I need someone to explain to me again why I should prefer to be the Cavs and not the Heat during that time.

Sorry- I give no credit for 'rebuilding the right way'. I can't tell you how many title-less years I've heard that phrase uttered.

Remember the groundbreaking and innovative way John Hart built the Tribe teams of the mid 90's? Yeah...I'd still rather be the simplistic and behind the times Braves and Marlins.

YMMV


My mileage doesn't vary that much, actually. It would have definitely been more fun to be a Miami fan than a Cavs fan this year. Probably true for the next 2-3 years as well (at least, if your scale as a fan is "will the team be a title contender"; I think there's something to be said for watching a young, developing team that isn't quite there yet but is still fun to watch).

I just happen to believe that the Bron/Wade/Bosh incarnation of the Heat are not going to win a title. Not because of residual LBJ-hate, but because objectively, the Heat have some pretty big weaknesses that even their considerable strengths do not cover. I think the Bulls take them out this year, and I think the Bulls and Thunder block them in 2012/2013, and then I think the combination of (a) the sun starting to set on Wade's career and (b) the media pressure of "it's been three season and you STILL haven't won a title???" take their toll.

Meanwhile, I see the Cavs as building towards something using the best path available to them. It's still early on that path, but I can see where it is heading, and I think the trip will be a fun one.

Besides, how much can we REALLY enjoy rooting for a team that features Boozer and Noah? ;)
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby scrambler » Wed May 18, 2011 3:05 pm

[quote="peeker643"][quote="diminishingskills"][quote="peeker643"]Remember the groundbreaking and innovative way John Hart built the Tribe teams of the mid 90's? Yeah...I'd still rather be the simplistic and behind the times Braves and Marlins.

It was pure happenstance the Marlins won in '97 and not the Indians. I liked the 94-01 Tribe. Most sustained period of success of a team in my lifetime, and I'm pretty old! (the Indians are still well run. The brilliance of Shapiro is why I finally registered as I find it beyond laughable how this guy is ripped on here, I'll address that at another time!) What are the options for the Cavs other than what they have?? The only periods of success came as a result of the number 1 pick in the draft (Daugherty, James). They tried to sign James as his presence was probably the 2nd most sustained period of success in my lifetime! No matter how big a jerk he is, we as fans really didn't care one iota until he left. I think the chances Irving is as good as Daugherty or James is pretty slim, but it's all we got. No free agent other than Larry Hughes signed here when we had James, so the draft is all the Cavs got and trading for overpriced players whose best years are behind them. The best case scenario is that they stink again this year and Irving and the 4 pick are really good and they get another top 5 pick next year. That's all we got.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed May 18, 2011 3:15 pm

I doubt more and more every day that a hard cap with non-guaranteed contracts even sniffs reasonable proposal. The NBA can see what is going on with the NFL, and will compromise on a deal with tweeked revenue sharing, a slightly lower cap number, less rich max deals in length and %raise yoy, less exceptions, and a stronger Bird Rights.

IMO, Wade, James, and Bosh live on , and OKC and Memphis aren't forced to blow up their young properly built cores.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/b ... &eref=sihp

The language and rhetoric being used by both sides is light years closer then what is going on with the NFL.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed May 18, 2011 3:18 pm

Also there is no doubt, the numbers are available online, that Gilbert is bottom 3rd is salary next season. Unless that exception turns into an on the books contract, or he takes on years for a Jamo expiring, he is spending bottom 3rd. I don't call it cheap/fire sale, but lets be real.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed May 18, 2011 3:26 pm

scrambler wrote:It was pure happenstance the Marlins won in '97 and not the Indians.


No it wasn't. It was pure happenstance the Indians were even there.

The Marlins won 92 games that season to the Indians 86 and then they beat a 101 win Braves team badly in the NLCS.

They had an all star and GG catcher as well as ridiculous years from Bonilla, Sheffield and Alou.

They also had Kevin Brown, Alex Fernandez, Al Leiter and Livan Hernandez and a tremendous closer in Nenn.

That wasn't happenstance. That was better talent ultimately catching up and winning in dramatic fashion but it wasn't happenstance.

No one is arguing whether or not they enjoyed the 94-01 Indians. But they didn't win shit.

I'll take the Marlins "happenstance" that apparently happenstanced twice in a decade as opposed to '94-'01.

Like I said, maybe you differ in sustained periods of 'good' as opposed to a couple titles.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 18, 2011 4:42 pm

scrambler, unlike most rubes that sign up here you genuinely seem to have a head on your shoulders and a grasp on WTF your fingers are spitting.

So I must ask, WHY oh WHY oh WHY would you SIGN UP to have the Shapiro debate with the Indians forum? Wasn’t there a meat grinder around you could stick your arm in? How about a screw driver to use to rip your fingernails off? I’m 100% sure either of these things would provide you more enjoyment than trying the Shapiro debate in The Indians Forum.

It’ll be a damn shame when a seemingly promising newb quits because of foolishly attempting that argument…

Although maybe motherscratcher could give you a lesson on using quote boxes. He’s TCF’s official customer supper rep and tech guy. If you have any problems you should send him a private message. He always responds and is very helpful. That goes for everyone as a matter of fact.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed May 18, 2011 4:54 pm

No matter how it shakes out with Miami....whether they can add help or not. Whether their future teams will be better, or not. It is a fact that they will have a good chance this year, and in the next 5 years to win a title. They'll be one of the teams that can.

How many times since 1970 could the Cavs say this?

They aren't the first garbage team to collect high picks. Garbage teams collect high picks every damn year. The Cleveland Cavs in the next 5 years will not be close to a championship - even if many of the draft picks pan out - yet we're going to argue they'll be on par with a team that is clearly going to be in the hunt for years to come?

The reality is, in the near future the Heat aren't going to get worse. And we can say they need to look better, they looked like crap many times this year, but that disjointed, mess of a squad, well, the last 60 games of the season, nobody managed a better record.

The delusional thinking that has come from Lebron dicking all of us is remarkable. This Chicago series is an example. The Heat go up two on the Celts and it's cries of "Series doesn't start till the home team loses" The Heat lose the lid-lifter against Chicago, and it's over already.

This is why I've said all year to not waste your time basing your season on all things Lebron. What's the point? His career will be over before the Cavs get over on him - if they ever do. We got F'd. Better not to dwell.

Cause the Heat can win tonight. And, while I agree with eO, that both teams in the West can take them down, there are no locks in a series against two of the greatest players in the world. What if one goes unconscious for a week?

But really, anyone wanna bet? I'll take the Heat and you got the Cavs in a race for the championship. What sane person on God's green earth is taking this wager without huge odds?

I'll say it one more time, huge assholes win championships all the time.
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Re: Maybe Gibert was right...

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed May 18, 2011 5:09 pm

Ha! Well said. I remember Twohigs winning a couple Metro titles that prove this point.

Anyway, what others also can't seem to get their minds around is that the lure of playing with the Threatles or Miami Thrice is strong. A-holes beget a-holes and if people here think Miami is in trouble regarding their roster they'll soon see players taking less to get down there and throw down with the Big 3. And it won't be the corpse of Z and Bibby. Less is relative too. Ain't gonna matter what the cap is once one that's realistic is in place. There will be guys who go down there and suit up with Miami that are equal to or better than Antawn Jamison and Samardo Samuels and Baron Davis/Andy Varejao, etc and those guys in Miami won't actually be overpaid by 6,000% like our studs are.

I don't think you need 8 to be great. I think you need five though. 3 great + 2 who don't blow and you're okay. Because the Heat have only the 3 great right now and that's good enough for ECF.

With time comes perspective. That's my only excuse. I still hope the Heat plane crashes into the Steelers facility, but comparing the Heat and the Cavs from an enjoyability standpoint?

Nope. Like I said, I've gotten my dose of perspective.



leadpipe wrote:No matter how it shakes out with Miami....whether they can add help or not. Whether their future teams will be better, or not. It is a fact that they will have a good chance this year, and in the next 5 years to win a title. They'll be one of the teams that can.

How many times since 1970 could the Cavs say this?

They aren't the first garbage team to collect high picks. Garbage teams collect high picks every damn year. The Cleveland Cavs in the next 5 years will not be close to a championship - even if many of the draft picks pan out - yet we're going to argue they'll be on par with a team that is clearly going to be in the hunt for years to come?

The reality is, in the near future the Heat aren't going to get worse. And we can say they need to look better, they looked like crap many times this year, but that disjointed, mess of a squad, well, the last 60 games of the season, nobody managed a better record.

The delusional thinking that has come from Lebron dicking all of us is remarkable. This Chicago series is an example. The Heat go up two on the Celts and it's cries of "Series doesn't start till the home team loses" The Heat lose the lid-lifter against Chicago, and it's over already.

This is why I've said all year to not waste your time basing your season on all things Lebron. What's the point? His career will be over before the Cavs get over on him - if they ever do. We got F'd. Better not to dwell.

Cause the Heat can win tonight. And, while I agree with eO, that both teams in the West can take them down, there are no locks in a series against two of the greatest players in the world. What if one goes unconscious for a week?

But really, anyone wanna bet? I'll take the Heat and you got the Cavs in a race for the championship. What sane person on God's green earth is taking this wager without huge odds?

I'll say it one more time, huge assholes win championships all the time.
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