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tired twoa/nba business rant

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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:57 pm

You’re point still doesn’t hold with the national trend this year re: the NBA so whatever. Attendance and TV revenue is up nationally, but you’re right Dewey Howard ditching that shit storm in Orlando in two years is going to kill interest! I just know it!

Cliches again.


But you don't see a difference between now, when the whole superteam thing still has a lot of novelty and intrigue, and five years from now when reality has set in? You have a lot of people tuned in this year to see how it plays out but that could give way to indifference if the same 5 preconceived destination city teams start being the only ones with perennial title aspirations. A couple of small market contenders will be in the mix too but their windows to compete are growing shorter at this point. I see OKC as the exception but that's not enough to keep the other half of the league interested. Teams aren't going to be able to make much hay at the box office if they're only relevant for 2 seasons before Player X wants to go party in Manhattan.

I don't even think we disagree on the needed changes though. They just need to beef up Bird rights on rookie contracts and share more revenue. It's probably all they can do. The product is still great and again, your argument is fine if you're also OK with contracting several teams. I just think this is a bigger problem than you give it credit for.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:10 pm

The NBA typically never has more than 5 relevant teams. Historically this is the truth.

Bird and Magic saved the NBA with two SUPER TEAMS.

Jordan was the last time the NBA drew like it is this year.

People have come back in increasing numbers since 2003 because of the growth of Superstars.

What you are saying in simply not reality and is literally on preached by burned Cleveland Fans. That is the truth.

This is basketball and basketball has always been about two superstars battling than cities being represented. You have your shitty NFL playoffs to reward your deep seeded need for fair and NBA fans have Paul versus Kobe right now.

My god Cleveland is historically the worst market in the NBA.

It’s incredibly disengenous to pretend like the NBA golden era’s (Bird – Magic and Jordan) EVER were about parity or many competing markets.

Mind blowing to act like all of the sudden all of America (and the Gen Y fan-base that is driving this) is just going to say FUCK IT WE HATE WATCHING SUPERSTARS PLAY SUPERSTARS and reverse what is approaching a ten year trend that just exploded.

One of the dumbest message board arguments ever to be frank.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:54 pm

It’s incredibly disengenous to pretend like the NBA golden era’s (Bird – Magic and Jordan) EVER were about parity or many competing markets.


I don't pretend like that's the case. Dynasties sell in sports. But I think there's a different dynamic to the 80's Lakers, 80's Celtics, and 90's Bulls building a powerhouse through smart transactions than to the guys today jockeying to be in glamorous cities. If you want a 20 team league, that's fine and you may even have a point, but admit it.

I love the Cavs and am coming from a very biased perspective. But, I've also had season tickets since 1993 and decided not to renew next year. You know why? Because any time I couldn't go (10 games or so), I had to sell them on Flash Seats and couldn't get more than 30% of face value. That's a problem. Sure, they sucked in the 90's too but lower level tickets didn't cost $140 a pop then. I'm just one person but I think I'm a fairly typical example of a passionate fan in a newly hopeless market.

And before you call me fairweather, I'll still go to 25-30 games next year paying way less through the secondary market. Great for my wallet, very bad for NBA business. What reason is there for me to shell out big money on full price tickets? My LeBron anger aside, do the Cavs even have a prayer at being competitive in the next five years? And I guarantee you can find season ticket holders that recently made the same decision for the Minnesota Timberwolves, Milwaukee Bucks, Detroit Pistons, etc. and more will do so in the future. 10-20 years ago, there was at least the ILLUSION that my team had a fair shake at winning (while good seats were much cheaper). But if the 5 fun coastal cities are what the league is becoming about (and only because they're fun coastal cities, not because team management does anything right), what's the point? You don't appear to think that mid-market NBA ticket customers like me matter(and that's OK), but I think it will hurt them.

This whole thing may be a product of the 24/7 sports information age and/or Gen Y players just being a more selfish lot than their predecessors. But, fair or unfair, I think the current setup casts a shadow over half of the league and see that being a problem in the future. Not a death knell, but a problem. You disagree. No big deal and no reason to suggest that I'm dumb. We'll have no idea of who's right for another 5-10 years.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby jb » Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:55 pm

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Again, strong points about a historic lack of parity. And speaking as a guy who grew up loving the 70;s game or parity and many good players stread out, I can't argue with your numbers.

One question, who pays the bills for the NBA?

Gen Y 20 somethings?

I know Cleveland is a bad NBA market, but whenever I went, I noticed the preponderance of people more like me than you. This one of those whacky message board cult observations, too>
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:27 pm

Yep Kingpin – the Bucks that had one of the best home crowds a mere year ago and made the playoffs (and had the worst luck in the NBA this year) are certainly a market that is hopeless.

And the Pacers that just made the playoffs (and were the youngest team in the playoffs) have no reason to watch games. Why would fans want to see that?

I mean I feel you, deeply re: the Fratello Era Cavaliers being that much more exciting a product to watch than either of those young teams.

Also, Kobe and Shaq joining up certainly made me feel better about the early 2000s Cavs. And that was 100% just Great Front Office Work That Everyone In America Could Appreciate.

Take your blinders off, seriously.

And if you refuse to AT LEAST STOP PROJECTING YOUR BUTT HURT DEMEANOR ABOUT THE SPORT ONTO THE ENTIRE COUNTRY WHEN THE NUMBERS SAY YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT

That is all I am asking.

And JB Gen Y pays a larger share than you would think (Christ I had season tickets to the 2007 C’s with 5 other Gen Yers).

BTW: Just released today 33% more people watching this years playoffs on TNT than last thus far and 39% in the key advertising demo (Gen Y). And Gen Y being the key advertising demo for TV is the biggest way they pay bills. This isn’t even taking into account the ratings absurdity that is going to the Heat – Celtics and Bulls – Celtics/Heat

Frankly there are two markets that are hopeless. Minny and Cleveland. And Minny has K-Love at least.

The Cavs are pretty effing pointless right now. Just like Memphis was a few years ago (a market that I am sure will go from bottom of the barrel re: attendance to selling out next year). The middle markets ebb and flow in the NBA. It just is how it is.

PS: Thank TMLP deciding that making a pretty practice center and arena was more important than building a real team for LBJ for those ticket prices
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby jb » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:49 pm

Question - any micro data available from a long-dormant NY post-season presence impacting the whole?
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:58 pm

Only Micro I have seen thus far on that is the game by game breakdown from opening weekend. All games were up over 30% from last year but the most watched and biggest increase Y/Y was the Boston – Knicks game.

That series drew a shit ton of eyes (not as many as Miami – Boston will though).
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:07 pm

Yep Kingpin – the Bucks that had one of the best home crowds a mere year ago and made the playoffs (and had the worst luck in the NBA this year) are certainly a market that is hopeless.

And the Pacers that just made the playoffs (and were the youngest team in the playoffs) have no reason to watch games. Why would fans want to see that?


My sister lives in Milwaukee and went to several 2009-2010 Bucks games through her office, place was half empty. I went to watch them play the LeBron Cavs on a Saturday night at the Bradley Center (with no bad weather) and it was a quarter empty. Three Fear The Deer games in April can't make up for six months of lackluster numbers.
Plus, Bulls fans making up half of Conseco Fieldhouse (the home of a 37-45 team) during these playoffs wasn't a good sign for Pacer ticket sales. And how much would you like to bet me that neither team comes within 2 games of a conference final in the next five years? The Pistons sold out every game for five years, the Palace is an absolute ghost town now. I could keep going. Just look on TV during the regular season games. The listed attendance figures are inflated to begin with and don't account for the no shows who aren't spending money on food, souvenirs, etc. Ticket sales are not good in NBA mid markets right now, even for great playoff stories like Memphis and New Orleans. Also, you brought up Shaq-Kobe as a counter example but only one of them was a free agent signing and TV numbers/the quality of the rest of the league were awful during their three titles.

And I fully admit it, my hatred for LeBron damages/eliminates my ability to be objective on this subject. And yes, Cleveland is an extreme case and probably shouldn't be lumped in with other middle markets at this point. But you're a smart guy, I'm not even arguing with a lot of your takes. A few posts earlier I agreed with how well the sport is doing at the top right now. There are some great storylines at work, the best players are in the mix, and the product itself is awesome. All I'm saying is that superstar collusion has started a new type of problem in the middle markets (whether it's real or just a new perception) and that COULD create trouble in the coming years (again, who knows right now?). What happened to Cleveland, Denver, and Utah (and will happen to Orlando and New Orleans next year) could have a ripple effect on 10 more similar markets, even if it's fans just panicking irrationally and not spending money out of apprehension.

You're coming from the perspective of a very knowledgeable fan who just wants to watch good basketball. That's great but you're not the Average Joe customer that the NBA needs to reel in for all 30 of its markets. Sure, people want to and will watch the best of the best go at it in April, May and June. However, there's an entire 82 game season that needs to pay the bills first. And what you're arguing isn't wrong, but is much more conducive to a 20-22 team league.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:20 pm

So again, the Bucks in 2009-10 post All-Star break had an amazing crowd.

The Pacers are on the upswing.

Memphis will sell out next year.

NoLA is back on the upswing.

These markets have reason to go watch games and if they don’t they don’t like basketball, period. I’ll bet you a big upswing in Pacers tickets occurs next year and the Bucks have another good middle market attendance run.

But none of that is as exciting as watching the Fratello era Cavs suck and/or the John Lucas Cavs? You’re on crack straight up.

Or you’re just insane.

Again, regular season TV and attendance numbers were also up. Down in some arenas, up in others. The middle markets always have and always will ebb.

Acting like a TEN YEAR trend is going to disappear because you are butt hurt isn’t analysis or smart, it sour grapes.

That is my point. TWO MARKETS LOST SUPERSTARS TOO A MARKET WITH A SUPERSTAR THIS YEAR AND THE NUMBERS WENT FUCKING UP.

There is precedence, there are trends and there are facts. None of these agree with you, Rich or Madre pretending like all of the sudden this is going to fall apart.

I’m done with this aspect of this discussion. Pretending like the tower is going to collapse because Dewey Howard is going to leave the most dysfunctional (hoopes wise) band-wagon tastic NBA team out there for someone like Boston (who drafted Rondo, who will be the only remaining superstar at that time with them) is going to cause some ripple effect isn’t a take anymore than 2012/Mayan Calendar shit is a take.

I’m not even arguing that things couldn’t be made better, they can BUT PRETENDING LIKE THE NBA FAN-BASE IS A TICKING TIMEBOMB IS LUDICROUS AND NOT SUPPORTED BY A SINGLE HISTORICAL OR CURRENT DATA POINT USE YOUR FUCKING HEAD

PS: I’m more Joe NBA fan than you. Joe NBA fan bandwagons more than any other sport, thus the fact that literally THREE DYNASTIES saved it. There is a reason when you own Celtics tickets you can sell heat games for double and Minny games on the 2nd market for 50%.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:23 pm

BTW: the 1% increase in attendance was actual attendance, not sold tickets. So no, in fact they are the opposite of inflated and you are just pulling things out your ass.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:28 pm

But none of that is as exciting as watching the Fratello era Cavs suck and/or the John Lucas Cavs? You’re on crack straight up.


Not really sure when I argued that, those teams were a joke. I was just saying that it's a lot more expensive to watch crappy basketball in person than it used to be, which kind of raises the stakes in this CBA go-around. I respect your opinion, though. You make good arguments and have data to back it up, I just disagree. I could be making a big deal over nothing but we won't know for a while.

And yes, my attendance comments were based purely on personal observation through seeing mid-market games in person and on TV. But a 1% overall increase could still happen while small markets struggle, right? And my argument spoke more to what the league will look like in five years, anyway.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:51 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:...alot


Sure an alpha will always want to do it on his own. Jordan, Kobe, some guy from b4 my time, but there is usually only one or two of these guys in any 10 year period. The rest have no problem teaming up, and our Alpha was well, more then willing to join his buddies and play AAU. It is how it always has been. Oh and Duncan was also thought to be joining "I drink Sprite" and T-Mac in Orlando.

Is it getting worse because of AAU, lack of the competitive flame, eh, maybe? But it is only marginally worse.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:02 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Baseball has produced more different title winners from the aughts forward than the NFL.

If only they could make the small markets relevant!!!!

Just a giant propaganda train. I could pull almost every post out of quotes dropped for ten years straight. Message Board Cliché Society.


Do large market teams deal in one and done? You know where they finally have the luck to pull it all together; mature drafted talent, well managed (GM and coach), sprinkled in FA (or all FA's), and then blow it up the second it either underachieves or is unsustainable ( ususally a 2-3 year windo ;-) ;) :wink: ).

While it would be SOOPER cool to have a Florida Marlins World Series Championship tell me what exactly that does for the teams long term fanbase? Should they even give a shit until the last possible second? Will this have any effect on the NBA metrics in 5+ years?
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby jb » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:26 am

Orenthal wrote: Will this have any effect on the NBA metrics in 5+ years?


The point is moot.

Chinese jersey & sneaker sales is the end to all the means.

What's that? They're all bootlegged so the greater NBA enterprise will receive limited share?

Shit. nevermind.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon May 02, 2011 5:12 pm

FTR: Stern said, publicly, today that the state of the NBA was very strong.

When Madre and Rich started going insane he was telling a very different story (remember this, please).

My point being, as always, the league is growing in a great way. Things need to change, people need to hug and LBJ needs to die, but the league is growing.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon May 02, 2011 5:19 pm

NM
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Mon May 02, 2011 5:20 pm

NM
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed May 04, 2011 7:57 pm

Read this. Become smarter. Larry Coon's CBA FAQ site is the bible on the subject, and he discusses multiple labor related issues...

here
http://www.hoopsworld.com/chat.asp?chat ... tus=Active
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Wed May 04, 2011 8:11 pm

Good stuff, O. I'm always up for a fresh knowledgeable take.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 11, 2011 12:08 pm

http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/05 ... -to-union/

Major update that looks like the league is trying to set up a very limited soft cap w/ a tag that allows teams to offer much more lucrative incentives than current bird rights versus what other teams can offer. However rather than rampant soft cap, it would be on a single player per team basis.

*caveat: we have no idea if this could happen annually or what, but it’s the first real insight into the soft/hard/franchise tag though process behind the league’s ideas
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Wed May 11, 2011 1:05 pm

Major update that looks like the league is trying to set up a very limited soft cap w/ a tag that allows teams to offer much more lucrative incentives than current bird rights versus what other teams can offer. However rather than rampant soft cap, it would be on a single player per team basis.


That's a big step if it's true, exactly what needs to change. It won't actually keep a guy in a small market if he doesn't want to be there but it will help with guys who are on the fence and if nothing else should up the trade compensation (whether it's a Carmelo extend-and-trade or a LeBron sign-and-trade).
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Wed May 11, 2011 5:54 pm

I think I'm more surprised than anything that it was Livingston on Outside the Lines today, and not Pluto. Anyhow, here's Dennis Manoloff throwing more logs in the fire:

dmansworldpd Dennis Manoloff
The NBA is in great shape -- as a 12-14 team entity. Problem is, the current total in the association is more than double that. #livvyrules
2 hours ago

dmansworldpd Dennis Manoloff
...on national tv...in the nba, too many teams have no realistic chance to win a title, year after year after year. #livvyrules
2 hours ago

dmansworldpd Dennis Manoloff
NBA ratings are high -- but numerous teams are losing gazzilions of dollars. How can that be? Because Milwaukee vs. Indiana is never...
2 hours ago

dmansworldpd Dennis Manoloff
How many times do I have to write/say this before enough people get it: TV ratings do not necessarily reflect the health of a league....
2 hours ago

dmansworldpd Dennis Manoloff
Easily Livvy's best national-TV appearance ever. Congrats to the kid from Vanderbilt.
2 hours ago

dmansworldpd Dennis Manoloff
Amazing how people can think having just eight different champions in 30 seasons is good for a league #nbaheadedtolockout
2 hours ago
»

dmansworldpd Dennis Manoloff
PD's Livvy just crushed this smarmy dude from The Miami Herald on espn's Outside The Lines. #livvyrules
2 hours ago
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed May 11, 2011 7:20 pm

Cleveland is for Cliche.

I've gone over the revenue disparities and everything else ad naseum. If guys like him don't want to educate themselves that is on them.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue May 17, 2011 9:25 am

Dan Gilbert’s pushing for the $45MM hard cap that has been discussed.

Amick mentioned it last year but that being the NBA’s goal is now confirmed.

Dan “I WILL SPEND WHATEVER IT TAKES” Gilbert… rolling toward a salary cap lower than the NHL’s.

And if this happens I can’t wait to see the melt down in here once teams like the Cavs, Grizzlies and OKC cannot afford to keep all stars and have to trot out scrubs.

Be careful what you twatwaffles ask for, because if you think replacing high caliber NBA talent is going to be like plugging a shitty mid-round NFL draft pick in to keep on rolling, you are badly mistaken.

$45MM would pretty much kill the league.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Tue May 17, 2011 9:48 am

Gilbert's last stand to force Miami to have to give up one of the "Big 3" or sign a worse group of bench players. Next year all 3 combined are set to make $47 mill and that'll increase year to year. $45 MM hard cap would cripple them and if Dan is pushing for that out of spite, he'll only handcuff himself when the time comes again for him to spend $$$.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Tue May 17, 2011 10:03 am

$45 mil is the starting point of the negotiations. You're also assuming guys like Heisley and Sarver aren't right alongside Gilbert in the choir. I'd imgaine its a pretty big choir right about now.

And if this happens I can’t wait to see the melt down in here once teams like the Cavs, Grizzlies and OKC cannot afford to keep all stars and have to trot out scrubs.


The only meltdown I see coming would be from those bemoaning the NFLication of the Association, and I'm pretty sure I know a guy who fits that description.

I see a hard cap and dropping of guaranteed contracts as spreading the talent and putting a bullet in the AAU mentality. You want your title, you'll have to work smarter and harder. That will be a big help for the mid-markets that are smart enough to take advantage of it. Granted, I can also see the problems considering its a superstar dominated league. For now, I for one welcome our parity overlords.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby fundamentals » Tue May 17, 2011 10:15 am

Allllllllllllllllllllllllllllll of a sudden, Mr. Moneybags wants a salary cap. Funny, when he was hoping LBJ would bring him a trophy, I bet he didn't think that way.
"It's all about winning for me, and I think the Cavs are committed to doing that," he said. "But at the same time I've given myself options to this point, and like I said before, me and my team, we have a game plan that we're going to execute, and we'll see what we get."

"We had a great time together."
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue May 17, 2011 10:57 am

Yeah Madre – a $45MM hard cap that will do nothing but cost OKC and Memphis as much talent as it will cost Miami is certainly going to prevent a team like the Knicks or Heat from tanking, clearing out all their cap room and using their market to attract stars.

It does absolutely nothing to prevent star movement and super-teams. As a matter of fact it makes guys fleeing to big markets more likely because small teams with two stars can only pay more for ONE of them.

This isn’t the NFLification, it is and will ruin the league.

And if Heisley is right along side Gilbert I gotta ask why he just gave a restricted FA in Z-Bo $17MM a year before the CBA negotiations (as in two weeks ago).

The guys that are rooting for this are the guys whose teams suck.

And with how much money Gilbert made off of LBJ it’s disgusting for him to be taking this $45MM hard cap stance.

Can’t wait for half the league to be FA’s!

This year, more than anything, has proven the fluid nature of competitiveness.

And the first time a small market can't afford a FA (which would be in two years after the cap is implemented) this board will melt the fuck down when they run to Brooklyn.


This does absolutely not a damned thing to stop the AAU mentality and Brooklyn will be lying in wait to take the scraps cut from the small markets. As will Boston.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue May 17, 2011 11:17 am

e0y2e3 wrote:Be careful what you twatwaffles ask for.....


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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Tue May 17, 2011 12:11 pm

I wouldn't mind a hard cap just to shake things up and reduce mediocre player salaries (and I think the $50-55M range is more reasonable). But I agree with Lee, I don't think it will do much to stop the superstar movement. They'll figure out a way around it. The Heat were basically dealing with a hard cap figure last summer anyway (they got rid of everyone). The Antichrist and Rupaul ended up getting sign and trades but they were willing to sign outright for less than the max.

Increasing the Bird Right incentives to stay with your team and/or implementing some sort of franchise tag will do way more to help small markets.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue May 17, 2011 12:24 pm

There is currently one team under $45MM, the Kings at $44MM.

A $45MM Hard Cap with no exception to allow your “franchise Bird Rights Guy” (No one else would get Bird Rights) is going to turn small markets into a Colts style team where one guy eats too large a chunk of your cap to properly build around him in a league where you need multiple studs to win it all and push the other talent coastward.

This proposal will hurt small markets more than the current system, bank on that. And with the elimination of Sign and Trades it will also take away getting actual talent back when you have to watch your talent run away.

Players aren’t dumb enough to go anywhere near this though.

A reasonable Hard Cap that you are allowed to go over with your franchise tag guy makes the most sense by far and would let you properly build a roster around a star.

This is a joke and the players are right to tell them to fuck off. It’s a money grab and nothing else.

Well a money grab and Dan Gilbert’s version of a penis pump.

That said, this has to just be a ridiculous negotiating ploy. No way the old guard owners want this. Everything about tAssociation would be ruined. The 80’s w/ Bird and Magic, MJ, the current and unprecedented growth of the sport, it would take all of that and ruin it.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby swerb » Tue May 17, 2011 1:42 pm

Interested to read Woj's take on this. If anyone sees it, link it in here so I don't miss it.

45mm is clearly unreasonable for all the reasons mentioned. The likely outcome is more like 55-60mm with a franchise tag.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue May 17, 2011 1:53 pm

Ideally I could live with a system where you got a $45MM cap but once you and your “franchise tag guy” came to terms he didn’t count against the cap.

It’s already been stated that the NBA isn’t doing anything more with the franchise tag than allowing the “home team” to pay far more than anyone else and guarantee more money. There will be no NFL style tag and that’s fine. But if you are going to inflate a single star’s salary and have a tiny ass salary cap you are going to cause less desirable markets a huge problem.

You want a smart and hard system? Build under $45MM, find your franchise guy (remember according to the proposal the franchise tag is a mutual thing, nothing a team can just dump on a player), get him to agree and remove him from the $45MM cap figure.

That would elate me.

And FWIW: this $45MM figure was leaked to Amik a year ago and the “source” used destroying the Heat as an example. Probably was TMLP.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue May 17, 2011 2:34 pm

Listening to a Brandon Jennings interview on Bomani’s show from this morning:

VERBATIM: “If they put a $45MM cap on us the big markets are going to become even more attractive to the superstars and stars because of the off the court money opportunities”

Again, this hard cap hurts the mid-small markets, period.

And stop hoping for an NFL style franchise tag, because it ain’t coming. The biggest franchise tag opportunity is as was mentioned earlier: off more money and more guaranteed years to one player and only one player. And the franchise tag will be mutually agreed upon.

Careful what you wish for hard cap fans. I’m sure Miami will be crying when they dump Bosh and replace him with Haslem…. HA.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue May 17, 2011 3:57 pm

$45, 50, 60 70, 100 million??? All arbitrary numbers that just inflate or deflate. Nothing changes. Star players will still band together. You're not changing mentality, its basically a stock split accounting transaction.

The "increased" Bird Rights and increased overall revenue sharing still seems the only way...
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue May 17, 2011 4:06 pm

Wrong.

When a Superstar is only making $7MM a year under a $45MM hard cap he is going to get his ass to the biggest market he can to maximize off the court money while at least living la vida loca in a place he likes.

And add that the hard cap does nothing to prevent H3AT and this is the dumbest effing idea ever.

Good thing our owner doesn’t give a fuck about his own franchise and supports it just because he wants to force Chris Bosh out of Miami.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue May 17, 2011 4:11 pm

That is a bunch of horseshit. You tell me how many ACTUAL NBA stars are even worth a trifle of off court sponsorship money? Then tell me of those how many of the deals matter geographcally.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue May 17, 2011 4:15 pm

...and fuck Dan Gilbert he is f'ing up this casino. Get it built dummy.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue May 17, 2011 4:21 pm

Seriously?

Every big name rookie or guy who does anything has sponsorship money and a lot of it.

Ask Jennings.

And what he said on air came straight from his business advisors as a small market NBA guy with high marketability. Not everyone is LBJ and can transcend geography.

New York, LA, Boston = much more sponsorship money than Cleveland…. Period.

Hell even now LBJ’s doing much better in in H3AT than he did in Cleveland.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue May 17, 2011 4:28 pm

John Wall gots him $25 million for 5yrs, before he was drafted. Is the local difference material? Is State Farm, Nike, and Sprite putting locality kickers in their deals? How many car dealers are using James?

Is this enough to choose a big market for that reason alone? Or is it still to create a sooperteam, weather, whatever?

I'm glad Jennings isn't playing on the most recent fears of Joe Fan.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Tue May 17, 2011 4:30 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Listening to a Brandon Jennings interview on Bomani’s show from this morning:


Yes, because if anyone knows anything about #winning its a jagoff like Jennings. Assuming we stick with the 30% max, that's $10.5 mil to start. Carry over 6 years with a max 5/10% increase each year and its what... something like $80 mil over six years? More if the cap is in the $50 to $55 mil range. I'm trying to find where the big market money going to cover that.

And Haslem is going to stay in Miami and make vet min as opposed to low or mid-level bucks elsewhere. Maybe he could make up for it by starring in McDonald's commercials with Mario Chalmers.

And if you are right, then how is the 'franchise' exception going to fix anything? After all, those off the court money opportunities aren't going anywhere and cash is cash.

Best of all, I love the implication that somehow Gilbert and friends svengali'd or forced David Stern and the old guard into a hard cap. I'll wait on Woj's take, but I have a hard time believing this all got passed over Stern without him either signing on or cashing out.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Tue May 17, 2011 4:32 pm

Orenthal wrote:...and fuck Dan Gilbert he is f'ing up this casino. Get it built dummy.


He will when Kasich remembers he's supposed to be for less government, not more.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Jumbo » Tue May 17, 2011 4:32 pm

Hard caps and guaranteed contracts (usually) don't mix. Still, I think eye's idea about the franchise tag + hard cap + franchise player's salary doesn't apply to the cap is an interesting way to allow teams to draft and keep a superstar. It would destroy the overpaid NBA middle class, too...which (as I understand the problem) largely gets overpaid because so many teams have to scramble to get players after the superstars have formed their superteams.

I took a quick look at last year's free agency, and here's an astounding (to me) factoid: last year, 35 players signed contracts of 3 years or longer, including 21 of 5 or 6 years. Even given that last year was an unusual FA year, that seems like a huge number and a recipe for disaster for most of those deals. To pick a name not at random: the Bucks signed Drew Gooden for 5 years? For comparison's sake, only 15 MLB free agents signed 3+ year contracts, with only 4 at 5+ years.

I also suppose that the salary cap and max contracts might result in longer contracts, since it reduces some of the flexibility of (for example) offering a shorter contract at more annual, but instead teams can only offer more by increasing the years.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue May 17, 2011 4:33 pm

Geezes fucking Christ dude.

If you can add another $1MM for being in a big market (AND THEY WANT TO LIVE THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE) in revenue it is a huge deal if you are making a measley $7MM a year compared to $20MM now.

This is simple.

And Jennings isn’t threatening on his own front, he’s being honest. It’s one of the reason’s Jennings is so awesome, guy spits pure truth.

Rest assured if he is saying this EVERYONE is.

And it isn’t about your first contract, it’s about the second and the new advertisers you add after you start playing. Stop being stupid because you feel like shit.

LBJ has added a bunch of sponsors in Miami.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue May 17, 2011 4:36 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
Orenthal wrote:...and fuck Dan Gilbert he is f'ing up this casino. Get it built dummy.


He will when Kasich remembers he's supposed to be for less government, not more.


I know that aspect, but he is doing a leveraged build, as opposed to Penn National. Thus the financing and blah blah enter Gilbert business method hate.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue May 17, 2011 4:39 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Listening to a Brandon Jennings interview on Bomani’s show from this morning:


Yes, because if anyone knows anything about #winning its a jagoff like Jennings. Assuming we stick with the 30% max, that's $10.5 mil to start. Carry over 6 years with a max 5/10% increase each year and its what... something like $80 mil over six years? More if the cap is in the $50 to $55 mil range. I'm trying to find where the big market money going to cover that.

And Haslem is going to stay in Miami and make vet min as opposed to low or mid-level bucks elsewhere. Maybe he could make up for it by starring in McDonald's commercials with Mario Chalmers.

And if you are right, then how is the 'franchise' exception going to fix anything? After all, those off the court money opportunities aren't going anywhere and cash is cash.

Best of all, I love the implication that somehow Gilbert and friends svengali'd or forced David Stern and the old guard into a hard cap. I'll wait on Woj's take, but I have a hard time believing this all got passed over Stern without him either signing on or cashing out.


1: All %'s are changing, that much is promised

2: Contracts won't be guaranteed, Ad money is

3: WTF is the burn on Jennings, HE IS RELYING HOW THE LEAGUE IS TALKING. Guy has done that forever. Gets him in trouble sometimes but he never dares not say what the truth is.

4: This wasn't Gilbert's idea, it is obviously a money grab. Fact is though that said money grab doesn't help mid markets, at all. Players are not going to stay in Milwaukee or Cleveland for three million more dollars a year and eat so much cap they can't have a good enough team to win a title. They'll congregate in big markets, make a bunch of commercials together and try to buy ad money with rings and super teams. There is nothing appealing about taking $3MM more to stay in Cleveland. Didn't you learn this lesson last year when the amount was much more?

5: It would be in Gilbert's best interest to look out for his own team, not trying to break up Miami because he is an angry little fuck. I am astounded you think that paying a guy $20MM now to stay in Cleveland isn't enough but $10MM and shitty local spotlights is going to help.

6: Look at Amare in NYC. He became a marketing force there in under a year and is reaping financial benefits left and right from it. If you play this shit right being a celebrity always = money. LBJ was big enough it didn't matter that much (EVEN THOUGH HE IS GETTING NEW SPONSERS IN MIAMI WHEN HE LOST SPONSERS THE LAST FEW YEARS IN CLEVELAND).
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue May 17, 2011 4:44 pm

Jumbo wrote:Hard caps and guaranteed contracts (usually) don't mix. Still, I think eye's idea about the franchise tag + hard cap + franchise player's salary doesn't apply to the cap is an interesting way to allow teams to draft and keep a superstar. It would destroy the overpaid NBA middle class, too...which (as I understand the problem) largely gets overpaid because so many teams have to scramble to get players after the superstars have formed their superteams.

I took a quick look at last year's free agency, and here's an astounding (to me) factoid: last year, 35 players signed contracts of 3 years or longer, including 21 of 5 or 6 years. Even given that last year was an unusual FA year, that seems like a huge number and a recipe for disaster for most of those deals. To pick a name not at random: the Bucks signed Drew Gooden for 5 years? For comparison's sake, only 15 MLB free agents signed 3+ year contracts, with only 4 at 5+ years.

I also suppose that the salary cap and max contracts might result in longer contracts, since it reduces some of the flexibility of (for example) offering a shorter contract at more annual, but instead teams can only offer more by increasing the years.


Under this proposal no contract is 100% guarunteed, including "franchise" deals.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue May 17, 2011 4:48 pm

It's still marginal IMO because the Bird Rights guy gets taken care of beyond what any other team can provide. Anyone got some local Wade, Bosh, or James spots they can post?

Seems this would effect the second guy who would be joining their Bird Rights guy. Every team will have a Bird Rights guy right? You can only have one of those per team for the duration of their contract, right?

Beyond uncomfotable. Just trying to ease my doubts on a debate that had James going to NYC lock, stock...
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue May 17, 2011 4:49 pm

PS: Haslem made his money from Miami and took a big paycut last year already to stay over more money later because he wanted to win a ring with the assholes.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Tue May 17, 2011 4:52 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Players are not going to stay in Milwaukee or Cleveland for three million more dollars a year and eat so much cap they can't have a good enough team to win a title. They'll congregate in big markets, make a bunch of commercials together and try to buy ad money with rings and super teams. There is nothing appealing about taking $3MM more to stay in Cleveland. Didn't you learn this lesson last year when the amount was much more?


I am astounded you think that paying a guy $20MM now to stay in Cleveland isn't enough but $10MM and shitty local spotlights is going to help.


6: Look at Amare in NYC. He became a marketing force there in under a year and is reaping financial benefits left and right from it. If you play this shit right being a celebrity always = money. LBJ was big enough it didn't matter that much (EVEN THOUGH HE IS GETTING NEW SPONSERS IN MIAMI WHEN HE LOST SPONSERS THE LAST FEW YEARS IN CLEVELAND).


So in other words, the system is broken now. With a hard cap its still broken. So no matter what, the small markets are hosed. Should they start taking Rush Limbaugh's advice or cash out to Don Stirling remoras while they still can?
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