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Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

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Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

Unread postby Loo » Mon May 09, 2011 10:14 pm

Fans are still fawning over the Browns' draft-day trade like it was some great steal, I wasn't as excited when it happened. I think Shurmur said something along the lines of the "greatest trade in history." CLE's trade was right on par with the 49ers' '95 deal for J.J. Stokes. In that deal, for SF to move up 20 spots, they gave up two firsts, a third and a fourth. Atlanta gave up two firsts, a second and two fourths to move up 21 spots. Pretty similar. Smart move and it was a little better, but not some incredible heist.

Also, I realized this from reading Clayton's column, otherwise I never would have known about the Stokes deal. Credit where credit is due.
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Re: Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

Unread postby peeker643 » Mon May 09, 2011 10:21 pm

Loo wrote:Fans are still fawning over the Browns' draft-day trade like it was some great steal, I wasn't as excited when it happened. I think Shurmur said something along the lines of the "greatest trade in history." CLE's trade was right on par with the 49ers' '95 deal for J.J. Stokes. In that deal, for SF to move up 20 spots, they gave up two firsts, a third and a fourth. Atlanta gave up two firsts, a second and two fourths to move up 21 spots. Pretty similar. Smart move and it was a little better, but not some incredible heist.

Also, I realized this from reading Clayton's column, otherwise I never would have known about the Stokes deal. Credit where credit is due.


Who exactly?

None of their top 5 were there. They made a good deal to accumulate picks this year and next and got a guy they wanted in a deep draft.

Not recalling seeing anyone say this was Lofton for Taunbensee.
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Re: Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

Unread postby hiko » Mon May 09, 2011 11:37 pm

Who cares if it was similar? That was 1000 years ago.

Two 1's, a 2, and two 4's for just one pick is pretty good value, especially when all the elite prospects are already off the board.
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Re: Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

Unread postby yogi » Tue May 10, 2011 6:53 am

I thought I had read an interview with Heckert (not a Prof. Pinhead article)and how they came to the compensated value of the #6 to the #27 was they went back and found that trade with the 49ers all those years ago and tweaked it for their deal.

That trade is very relevant.
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Re: Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Tue May 10, 2011 7:26 am

The Stupidification of America

That's my new one...it takes the place of The Pussification of America

Defined: Giving a too much of a rats ass about sports and television programs

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Re: Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

Unread postby JCoz » Tue May 10, 2011 8:57 am

Loo wrote:Fans are still fawning over the Browns' draft-day trade like it was some great steal, I wasn't as excited when it happened. I think Shurmur said something along the lines of the "greatest trade in history." CLE's trade was right on par with the 49ers' '95 deal for J.J. Stokes. In that deal, for SF to move up 20 spots, they gave up two firsts, a third and a fourth. Atlanta gave up two firsts, a second and two fourths to move up 21 spots. Pretty similar. Smart move and it was a little better, but not some incredible heist.

Also, I realized this from reading Clayton's column, otherwise I never would have known about the Stokes deal. Credit where credit is due.


Guess I'm still waiting for the punchline Loo.

What's your point? That it wasn't the greatest heist ever?

I think even if you got 5 1st's and 4 2nd's, ultimately the picks aren't worth anything at all unless you turn them into good players.

So all you can say at this point is Cleveland was in a favorable position in where:

1. All the players they valued at that spot were taken already,

AND

2. A player that another team held in extremely high value was available.

Its fairly rare that you sit in that exact position at #6 overall. Usually you just get one or the other.

Beyond that its wait and see.
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Re: Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Tue May 10, 2011 10:08 am

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:The Stupidification of America

That's my new one...it takes the place of The Pussification of America

Defined: Giving a too much of a rats ass about sports and television programs

Kerri on


SD:

Did you know much of the public water systems buy water from private conglomerates who are foreign owned,
and in bigger cities have permission to introduce laudanum into drinking water.

Did you know the great Lakes in Michicgan is 5 feet lower as a result of deals with foregein Nationals where they are free to take our water and sell it back to us while paying a paltry fee for the land but no sur charge on every botle of water they steal.

Did you know the chinese float our water out of here in bladders each as large as an oil tanker strung six and seven
units together in one trip, while we suffer water shortages in parts of our own Country.

Did you know T Boon pickens bouht a 68,000, acre ranch where he drilled down and tapped into the Ockawalaha Aguafer (sp) which is the underground water reserve under half the midwest States in anticipation of selling you something you take for granted that should be free.

Did you know the Bushes bought 110,000 acres in Bolivia of the cleanest drinking water source on the planet .

Did you know Haliburton paid 248 million for the only company in the World with the capabilities to clean up deep water oil spills Boot and Coots ,2 weeks before the Gulf disaster .

and the resultant Cleanup and payoff for that quarter billion investment may well exceed $10 billion dollars and change .

Yeah Bro , we're real smart as a populace .

And nobody can pull no shit on our watch .....................................................................................


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Re: Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Tue May 10, 2011 10:24 am

LOFL

This from a guy who just posted Bldg 7 was brought down by "exploding paint"....

I guess I can pretty much rest my case, eh?
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Re: Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue May 10, 2011 11:07 am

SoulDawg74 wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:The Stupidification of America

That's my new one...it takes the place of The Pussification of America

Defined: Giving a too much of a rats ass about sports and television programs

Kerri on


SD:

Did you know much of the public water systems buy water from private conglomerates who are foreign owned,
and in bigger cities have permission to introduce laudanum into drinking water.

Did you know the great Lakes in Michicgan is 5 feet lower as a result of deals with foregein Nationals where they are free to take our water and sell it back to us while paying a paltry fee for the land but no sur charge on every botle of water they steal.

Did you know the chinese float our water out of here in bladders each as large as an oil tanker strung six and seven
units together in one trip, while we suffer water shortages in parts of our own Country.

Did you know T Boon pickens bouht a 68,000, acre ranch where he drilled down and tapped into the Ockawalaha Aguafer (sp) which is the underground water reserve under half the midwest States in anticipation of selling you something you take for granted that should be free.

Did you know the Bushes bought 110,000 acres in Bolivia of the cleanest drinking water source on the planet .

Did you know Haliburton paid 248 million for the only company in the World with the capabilities to clean up deep water oil spills Boot and Coots ,2 weeks before the Gulf disaster .

and the resultant Cleanup and payoff for that quarter billion investment may well exceed $10 billion dollars and change .

Yeah Bro , we're real smart as a populace .

And nobody can pull no shit on our watch .....................................................................................


SoulDawg


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Re: Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

Unread postby gotribe31 » Tue May 10, 2011 11:26 am

SoulDawg74 wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:The Stupidification of America

That's my new one...it takes the place of The Pussification of America

Defined: Giving a too much of a rats ass about sports and television programs

Kerri on


SD:

Did you know T Boon pickens bouht a 68,000, acre ranch where he drilled down and tapped into the Ockawalaha Aguafer (sp) which is the underground water reserve under half the midwest States in anticipation of selling you something you take for granted that should be free.


SoulDawg


I think this is my favorite SD post ever, mainly because all of a sudden he cares about spelling.

Flouride and exploding paint. What a great week already, and it's only Tuesday.
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Re: Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

Unread postby hiko » Tue May 10, 2011 12:08 pm

This explains my unreasonable addiction to water.
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Re: Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

Unread postby jta1975 » Tue May 10, 2011 12:47 pm

This is great stuff, this post made my day...and got me my daily ab workout..
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Re: Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

Unread postby gotribe31 » Tue May 10, 2011 3:09 pm

Ripper.jpg
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Re: Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Tue May 10, 2011 5:34 pm

If I pould get my hands on some of that paint I'd become a grafitti artist
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Re: Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

Unread postby Loo » Tue May 10, 2011 9:52 pm

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:The Stupidification of America

That's my new one...it takes the place of The Pussification of America

Defined: Giving a too much of a rats ass about sports and television programs

Kerri on


You're on a message board talking about sports. Hypocrisy.

JCoz wrote:
Loo wrote:Fans are still fawning over the Browns' draft-day trade like it was some great steal, I wasn't as excited when it happened. I think Shurmur said something along the lines of the "greatest trade in history." CLE's trade was right on par with the 49ers' '95 deal for J.J. Stokes. In that deal, for SF to move up 20 spots, they gave up two firsts, a third and a fourth. Atlanta gave up two firsts, a second and two fourths to move up 21 spots. Pretty similar. Smart move and it was a little better, but not some incredible heist.

Also, I realized this from reading Clayton's column, otherwise I never would have known about the Stokes deal. Credit where credit is due.


Guess I'm still waiting for the punchline Loo.

What's your point? That it wasn't the greatest heist ever?

I think even if you got 5 1st's and 4 2nd's, ultimately the picks aren't worth anything at all unless you turn them into good players.

So all you can say at this point is Cleveland was in a favorable position in where:

1. All the players they valued at that spot were taken already,

AND

2. A player that another team held in extremely high value was available.

Its fairly rare that you sit in that exact position at #6 overall. Usually you just get one or the other.

Beyond that its wait and see.


Well yeah, the trade could end up giving CLE five HOFs or five one-and-done guys, but it's just based on value on draft day.

I've talked with quite a few people around here who thought it was "brilliant" among other words, basically going about the way of saying they couldn't believe Atlanta pulled the trigger. Then on the radio, heard a scout said CLE "fleeced" ATL, and the Heckert said something about the greatest trade in history, although I didn't hear the context. It was a great trade and a very smart move but the "exceptional" and "extraordinary" talk is unwarranted.

Just saying. Sorry to piss in everyone's Cheerios. I'm especially sorry if they were Cinnamon Cheerios, which I hear are scrumptious.
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Re: Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Tue May 10, 2011 10:15 pm

Loo wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:The Stupidification of America

That's my new one...it takes the place of The Pussification of America

Defined: Giving a too much of a rats ass about sports and television programs

Kerri on


You're on a message board talking about sports. Hypocrisy.

JCoz wrote:
Loo wrote:Fans are still fawning over the Browns' draft-day trade like it was some great steal, I wasn't as excited when it happened. I think Shurmur said something along the lines of the "greatest trade in history." CLE's trade was right on par with the 49ers' '95 deal for J.J. Stokes. In that deal, for SF to move up 20 spots, they gave up two firsts, a third and a fourth. Atlanta gave up two firsts, a second and two fourths to move up 21 spots. Pretty similar. Smart move and it was a little better, but not some incredible heist.

Also, I realized this from reading Clayton's column, otherwise I never would have known about the Stokes deal. Credit where credit is due.


Guess I'm still waiting for the punchline Loo.

What's your point? That it wasn't the greatest heist ever?

I think even if you got 5 1st's and 4 2nd's, ultimately the picks aren't worth anything at all unless you turn them into good players.

So all you can say at this point is Cleveland was in a favorable position in where:

1. All the players they valued at that spot were taken already,

AND

2. A player that another team held in extremely high value was available.

Its fairly rare that you sit in that exact position at #6 overall. Usually you just get one or the other.

Beyond that its wait and see.


Well yeah, the trade could end up giving CLE five HOFs or five one-and-done guys, but it's just based on value on draft day.

I've talked with quite a few people around here who thought it was "brilliant" among other words, basically going about the way of saying they couldn't believe Atlanta pulled the trigger. Then on the radio, heard a scout said CLE "fleeced" ATL, and the Heckert said something about the greatest trade in history, although I didn't hear the context. It was a great trade and a very smart move but the "exceptional" and "extraordinary" talk is unwarranted.

Just saying. Sorry to piss in everyone's Cheerios. I'm especially sorry if they were Cinnamon Cheerios, which I hear are scrumptious.


SD:


You've lodged a premiss as a contrarian , butt you've hardly made a case to support your point.

In the world of professionals and glorified ham handed amateurs who flourish in this type of posting ,

your paltry contribution toward the cause doesn't even amount to speed bump worth countering .

Since its slow and i got nothing better to do than eviscerate a wannabee I really wish you could bring a little sumpthin sumpthin to the table so we could make this a Russian death match .


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Re: Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

Unread postby Loo » Tue May 10, 2011 11:28 pm

My claim was that instead of the "extraordinary" adjective attached to the trade, it actually just followed the precedent set 16 years ago. It was smart, but not a one-sided trade by any means like many seem to think.

Just an observation is all, people seem to kiss the ass of H/H but it just wasn't a "special" deal when it was done 16 years ago. Just think people are being a bit homerish here, IMHO.

Guess you missed that.

And no, SD, you can't rope me into name-calling. That's your game. If you say I don't bring anything to the table because I won't indulge you with some foul language and compete in the "Russian Death Match" you say you desire, well that's OK by me.

I await your response stating my incompetence, my poor "reading comprehension" in deciphering your grammar or that I'm narrow minded, just like everyone else who disagrees with your viewpoints. Yawn.
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Re: Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

Unread postby JCoz » Wed May 11, 2011 6:51 am

Loo wrote:Well yeah, the trade could end up giving CLE five HOFs or five one-and-done guys, but it's just based on value on draft day.

I've talked with quite a few people around here who thought it was "brilliant" among other words, basically going about the way of saying they couldn't believe Atlanta pulled the trigger. Then on the radio, heard a scout said CLE "fleeced" ATL, and the Heckert said something about the greatest trade in history, although I didn't hear the context. It was a great trade and a very smart move but the "exceptional" and "extraordinary" talk is unwarranted.

Just saying. Sorry to piss in everyone's Cheerios. I'm especially sorry if they were Cinnamon Cheerios, which I hear are scrumptious.


I guess what I was saying is that your point in starting a thread still isn't all that clear.

So It was a great trade or smart move but not Exceptional or Extraordinary?

Yeah, ok, sure. I'll roll with that.

What now?

Was your point that its shocking to learn that some fans and pundits came out of a draft overly optimistic about how well a team did? Say it ain't so, Loo.

Or was it that our new HC tossed around some hyperbole talking about that trade?

”I think we did great,” Shurmur said. ”I don’t care what anybody says. But we obviously started off the draft by making a historic trade, probably one of the greatest trades in draft history, when we traded with [the] Atlanta [Falcons] — our sixth pick to get to [No.] 27, eventually up to [No.] 21 — because we felt like we needed help in areas and based on the talent, based on what other teams around us were gonna do and based on what we needed, we felt like that was the perfect thing to do.”


I think it's fair to say what he said was much less earth shatteringly crazy when viewed in its entirety.
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Re: Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

Unread postby hiko » Wed May 11, 2011 9:16 am

Loo wrote:My claim was that instead of the "extraordinary" adjective attached to the trade, it actually just followed the precedent set 16 years ago. It was smart, but not a one-sided trade by any means like many seem to think.

Just an observation is all, people seem to kiss the ass of H/H but it just wasn't a "special" deal when it was done 16 years ago. Just think people are being a bit homerish here, IMHO.


As JCoz pointed out, your point was somewhat unclear.

The groundwork for the trade is similar to what happened 16 years ago? OK, that's fine.

That trade didn't work out so well? So? What's that got to do with this trade?

Obviously, if Heckert makes bad selections with the picks he's obtained, then the trade down will all be for naught. That goes without saying. If the picks are wasted like they were 16 years ago, then it doesn't look like that great a deal.

But if he stayed at 6 and made a bad pick, that would be just as much a waste.

If Heckert makes good selections, then the value was certainly there to make the trade down. So, from sheer trade value (not knowing how the players selected will end up performing), it was a solid move.
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Re: Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Wed May 11, 2011 9:23 am

Loo wrote:My claim was that instead of the "extraordinary" adjective attached to the trade, it actually just followed the precedent set 16 years ago. It was smart, but not a one-sided trade by any means like many seem to think.

Just an observation is all, people seem to kiss the ass of H/H but it just wasn't a "special" deal when it was done 16 years ago. Just think people are being a bit homerish here, IMHO.

Guess you missed that.

And no, SD, you can't rope me into name-calling. That's your game. If you say I don't bring anything to the table because I won't indulge you with some foul language and compete in the "Russian Death Match" you say you desire, well that's OK by me.

I await your response stating my incompetence, my poor "reading comprehension" in deciphering your grammar or that I'm narrow minded, just like everyone else who disagrees with your viewpoints. Yawn.


SD:

Moir use foul langauage Shirley you jest .

My response requires no emotional diatribe but simple math .

I'm in accord with your skepticism of second day fare offered by H&H both this year and last , but find no support in your premiss finding fault in the trade down .

At six the four studs in this draft were gone when we picked , Jones was hardly worth two players let alone four additional swings at the plate plus the Falcons #1 .

We netted a defensive starter a 335 lb tank who can move , plus two other starters with our next two picks one of which (LITTLE)was a direct aquisition due to the extra ammo gleaned in the trade .

A receiver of equal ability to Greene and Jones save the playing time due to suspension for 1/5th the cost .

The three starters make this draft a success unto itself before you factor in we gleaned a #1 and and extra four next year .

Long term we will add four additional quality starters vs adding one guy to a team which needs everything , not to mention we now have a chip in the game to position ourselves in the Luck Barkley sweepstakes as we can potentially offer three #1's without totally crippling this franchise.

Adjusted for inflation the value to glean the same player values as 16 years ago is hitting the lottery , there hasn't been anything to equal it since the Walker deal in magnitude.

You are both ill informed and ill advised in your assessment of the true value of this deal.


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Re: Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

Unread postby pup » Wed May 11, 2011 10:59 am

Just because the "slots" are similar of that trade 16 years ago does not mean the trades are the same. The value of draft choices has increased exponentially over that time, no? Teams places higher value on their picks and hoard them like never before so the willingness to get someone to pay the same price today as 16 years ago is actually impressive.
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Re: Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

Unread postby mattvan1 » Wed May 11, 2011 1:03 pm

JCoz wrote: Or was it that our new HC tossed around some hyperbole talking about that trade?

”I think we did great,” Shurmur said. ”I don’t care what anybody says. But we obviously started off the draft by making a historic trade, probably one of the greatest trades in draft history, when we traded with [the] Atlanta [Falcons] — our sixth pick to get to [No.] 27, eventually up to [No.] 21 — because we felt like we needed help in areas and based on the talent, based on what other teams around us were gonna do and based on what we needed, we felt like that was the perfect thing to do.”


I think it's fair to say what he said was much less earth shatteringly crazy when viewed in its entirety.


OMG. When I first read the above, I was certain that JCoz was just playin' and the quote was fabricated.

No, Pat Shurmur actually was quoted as saying "probably one of the greatest trades in draft history"

Browns pressers will cetainly be a lot more lively with Pat "The Quote Machine" Shurmur as opposed to Mangini. Mary Kay has a hard on already.
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Re: Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

Unread postby diminishingskills » Wed May 11, 2011 1:09 pm

Loo wrote:My claim was that instead of the "extraordinary" adjective attached to the trade, it actually just followed the precedent set 16 years ago. It was smart, but not a one-sided trade by any means like many seem to think.

Just an observation is all, people seem to kiss the ass of H/H but it just wasn't a "special" deal when it was done 16 years ago. Just think people are being a bit homerish here, IMHO.


Maybe someday, someone can explain to me why supporting the local team necessarily equals "homerism". You don't have to kiss Heckert's ass to say that the Browns made a good trade.

As for following precedent ... if something happens once every 16 years, that's pretty extraordinary, no? What's the precedent anyway? Trading from high in the first round to low in the first round? That seems to be a pretty narrow precedent to set. Draft trades happen every year, sometimes with teams moving out of the first round entirely.

Trades rarely are one-sided. Each team has to agree to it. This isn't radio talk show land, where the Browns can trade Jake Delhomme, two late round picks, and an old photo of Otto Graham to Indy for Peyton Manning. Heckert himself was quoted as saying that it was a good deal for both teams.

You can be in favor of something without being a blind, Kool-Aid drinking homer. Recognize la difference.

BTW, with regards to the JJ Stokes deal, you DO know who ended up being selected with the future first-rounder that San Francsico traded to the Browns, right? Not that the Browns will necessarily get the same value out of their pick next year, but if you want to use that trade as the precedent, it sure looks good for Cleveland.
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Re: Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed May 11, 2011 1:36 pm

diminishingskills wrote:Trades rarely are one-sided. Each team has to agree to it. This isn't radio talk show land, where the Browns can trade Jake Delhomme, two late round picks, and an old photo of Otto Graham to Indy for Peyton Manning. Heckert himself was quoted as saying that it was a good deal for both teams.


You know how old Manning is? You know Tom Brady was a late round pick?

Are you crazy dealing Delhomme and two potential Brady's for an old QB not long for the league?
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Re: Browns Draft-Day Trade Not As Shiny As Some Think

Unread postby diminishingskills » Wed May 11, 2011 5:10 pm

peeker643 wrote:You know how old Manning is? You know Tom Brady was a late round pick?

Are you crazy dealing Delhomme and two potential Brady's for an old QB not long for the league?


Shit man, you're right. Delhomme and two sixth-rounders for Brady and that CB they have. Devin something-or-other. Then it'd be a fair deal. Is it time to cut to weather and traffic yet?
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