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Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

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Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby danwismar » Mon May 02, 2011 9:44 pm

FYI...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/sport ... erson.html

Duerson shot himself in the chest in order to preserve his brain for the doctors to examine,and for the NFL to learn from. He killed himself because he was suffering from mental difficulties caused by his football career.

I think we are approaching the day when high schools (at least) will have some real justification for eliminating football programs based on a growing body of research about concussions and brain injury. Parents groups are already making substantial progress toward that end in many communities.

It's sad, but we're past the point where we can deny that young men's lives are being cut short and the quality of their lives is suffering for having played this game. At the pro level, you can say they know the risks and they play anyway...for large quantities of cash...but Duerson might have gladly traded some of that cash for a few more years on the planet.

Interested in what the forum thinks.
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Mon May 02, 2011 9:59 pm

danwismar wrote:FYI...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/sport ... erson.html

Duerson shot himself in the chest in order to preserve his brain for the doctors to examine,and for the NFL to learn from. He killed himself because he was suffering from mental difficulties caused by his football career.

I think we are approaching the day when high schools (at least) will have some real justification for eliminating football programs based on a growing body of research about concussions and brain injury. Parents groups are already making substantial progress toward that end in many communities.

It's sad, but we're past the point where we can deny that young men's lives are being cut short and the quality of their lives is suffering for having played this game. At the pro level, you can say they know the risks and they play anyway...for large quantities of cash...but Duerson might have gladly traded some of that cash for a few more years on the planet.

Interested in what the forum thinks.


SD:

The Country is soft as Charmin toilet paper now and the populace is as dumb as cattle with the average adult operating on a 5th grade level .

Thats just what we need to announce to the world we're a bunch of pussies who have no stomach for our own sport .


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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby JacksonDysonJackson » Mon May 02, 2011 10:11 pm

I don't see HSs dropping football for these reasons. Football is usually the most popular and highest revenue generator for schools. What could happen, though, is that parents will stop allowing their kids play the game. I think this is happening to a certain extent already.

There needs to be substantial changes to the game. Fines and suspensions for head shots will not solve the problem. IMO, the NFL is doing / does the bare minimum in order to remain politically correct and create the illusion that they actually give a fuck about these guys.

These won't happen, because no one has the stones to press the issue, but here are some changes that could / should be done:

- Widen the playing field - Same old argument, players are bigger, stronger, faster.
- Modify the helmets - I'm sure most will laugh, but they should make the helmets out of a weaker material and possibly take off the face masks. This would eliminate people using their headgear as a weapon.
- Penalize hits above the #s - Encourage form tackling as opposed to the bs propeller hits you see now.

Of course, none of this will happen and players will keep sustaining head injuries. If you think the current retirees are in bad shape, wait for this generation of players post career lives to play themselves out. Gonna be ugly.
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby mattvan1 » Mon May 02, 2011 10:38 pm

It would be interesting to see some breakdown on HS head injuries. If they are even tracked. I wonder how many are caused by helmet to helmet, and how many are the result of something else - like a knee to the head in a pile or banging the head on some crap indoor outdoor carpeting thrown over concrete like the old Veterans Stadium in Philly. Not sure how in works up there, but down here each conference (school district) provides a certain number of public use stadiums shared by all the teams. Some are pretty nice with Field Turf. Others are like playing in the street. First thing I would do for HS football is mandate either Field Turf or natural grass - no legacy Astroturf which is on quite a few fields.

Next would be high quality helmets provided equally to all schools by the district AD, and not letting individual schools buy and maintain their own headgear. More expensive, but it at least balances the rich/poor divide. Didn't make enough from your car wash/bake sale and need to buy crap jerseys? - fine. No skimping on helmets.
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby Loo » Mon May 02, 2011 11:51 pm

SoulDawg74 wrote:
danwismar wrote:FYI...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/sport ... erson.html

Duerson shot himself in the chest in order to preserve his brain for the doctors to examine,and for the NFL to learn from. He killed himself because he was suffering from mental difficulties caused by his football career.

I think we are approaching the day when high schools (at least) will have some real justification for eliminating football programs based on a growing body of research about concussions and brain injury. Parents groups are already making substantial progress toward that end in many communities.

It's sad, but we're past the point where we can deny that young men's lives are being cut short and the quality of their lives is suffering for having played this game. At the pro level, you can say they know the risks and they play anyway...for large quantities of cash...but Duerson might have gladly traded some of that cash for a few more years on the planet.

Interested in what the forum thinks.


SD:

The Country is soft as Charmin toilet paper now and the populace is as dumb as cattle with the average adult operating on a 5th grade level .

Thats just what we need to announce to the world we're a bunch of pussies who have no stomach for our own sport .


SoulDawg


[/begin sarcasm] Yeah, football players suffering from mental problems and severe depression...what pussies! [/end sarcasm]

Come on SD, have some empathy.

And speaking of people operating with a fifth grade level--have you seen how you write?
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby danwismar » Tue May 03, 2011 12:26 am

SoulDawg74 wrote:The Country is soft as Charmin toilet paper now and the populace is as dumb as cattle with the average adult operating on a 5th grade level .

Thats just what we need to announce to the world we're a bunch of pussies who have no stomach for our own sport .


SoulDawg


Well, we lose 50,000 lives a year to traffic accidents. We could save 90% of those lives if we were willing to lower the speed limit to 20 mph.

But we're not. (and I'm not saying we should be) As a society, we're willing to sacrifice those lives in order to keep driving the way we like to drive.

We also like our football the way it is. It's a very similar kind of calculation on a smaller scale.
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby hermanfontenot » Tue May 03, 2011 12:39 am

I agree with SD. There are fewer and fewer places for young men to test themselves physically and mentally; fewer and fewer spaces of their own in what is becoming an increasingly feminized country.

I think it's important that we preserve the bastions of masculinity we still have left in this society, while acknowledging the risks that accompany them. The risks are part of the package.

I understand these men pay a price. They're the closest thing to modern-day gladiators that we have.
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue May 03, 2011 8:49 am

There is a difference between the safety of those who choose the sport as a career - or choose to be a "gladiator" and those young kids who are just playing the sport as a youth activity. Therefore, the conversation of Is football safe for young kids? and How do we change the rules of big time college and professional football to make it safer? are two different arguments.

The fact of the matter is that the organization that is spearheading head injury thru athletic activities studies (the name escapes me now - headed by Chris Nowitsky)is learning more and more each day. And, just a few short years ago they had very few brains available to them for analysis. At the current time they are receiving more than they can handle - from a variety of sports, and a variety of ages. And the bottom line is, if their analysis of the young brains they receive show the characteristics of the older ones they've analyzed, the football landscape is going to look much different.

And it won't be another example of "The Pussification of America" unless, of course, you want to paint "keeping your child away from brain injury" with the same broad brush as you would "We're not going to keep score of the game, cause my kid will be hurt if he loses."

Again, there's empathy for Dave Duerson and Mike Webster, and there's empathy for Joe Suicide, who didn't necessarily choose his path.

Would you love if your kid chose to box? Is he a pussy if he doesn't?
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Tue May 03, 2011 9:28 am

Reduce the padding and helmets. Teach form tackling and wrapping up and the number of brain altering hits will decrease. First saftey to come over the middle leading with his head will die, and that will be all it takes.
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Tue May 03, 2011 9:54 am

danwismar wrote:
SoulDawg74 wrote:The Country is soft as Charmin toilet paper now and the populace is as dumb as cattle with the average adult operating on a 5th grade level .

Thats just what we need to announce to the world we're a bunch of pussies who have no stomach for our own sport .


SoulDawg


Well, we lose 50,000 lives a year to traffic accidents. We could save 90% of those lives if we were willing to lower the speed limit to 20 mph.

But we're not. (and I'm not saying we should be) As a society, we're willing to sacrifice those lives in order to keep driving the way we like to drive.

We also like our football the way it is. It's a very similar kind of calculation on a smaller scale.



SD:

My original comments addressed those who would advocate banning football altogether ,
No I don't want kids hurt , but hell every year Dads teach their kids hw to go hunting , and last I checked that involves killing something to eat .

Should we also ban that and just chew lettuce.

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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Tue May 03, 2011 10:05 am

Loo wrote:
SoulDawg74 wrote:
danwismar wrote:FYI...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/sport ... erson.html

Duerson shot himself in the chest in order to preserve his brain for the doctors to examine,and for the NFL to learn from. He killed himself because he was suffering from mental difficulties caused by his football career.

I think we are approaching the day when high schools (at least) will have some real justification for eliminating football programs based on a growing body of research about concussions and brain injury. Parents groups are already making substantial progress toward that end in many communities.

It's sad, but we're past the point where we can deny that young men's lives are being cut short and the quality of their lives is suffering for having played this game. At the pro level, you can say they know the risks and they play anyway...for large quantities of cash...but Duerson might have gladly traded some of that cash for a few more years on the planet.

Interested in what the forum thinks.


SD:

The Country is soft as Charmin toilet paper now and the populace is as dumb as cattle with the average adult operating on a 5th grade level .

Thats just what we need to announce to the world we're a bunch of pussies who have no stomach for our own sport .


SoulDawg


[/begin sarcasm] Yeah, football players suffering from mental problems and severe depression...what pussies! [/end sarcasm]

Come on SD, have some empathy.

And speaking of people operating with a fifth grade level--have you seen how you write?


SD:

Why you want to insult fifth graders like that :)

Seriously , I'm all for protecting kids health to advance the sport , but stop short of advocating putting dresses on them or little flags they pull off each others waist to prevent tackling.

We used to be the standard for toughness and ingenuity for the entire World .

The #1 society on this planet to look upto , I don't want the silly frilly sissyfied set to further erode the high ground we forfeit more and more everyday from that perch.

Chinese kids walk to school doing Calculus in their head , we're we have adults who couldn't find the right button on a calculator to complete an addition program .

They have a 10 million man standing army and during recess everybody in school practices martial arts , while workers do the same in organized breaks when they aren't slaving to out produce us , while we contemplate skirts for our QB's and turning a collision sport into a hug and dance social.


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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby JacksonDysonJackson » Tue May 03, 2011 10:26 am

My original comments addressed those who would advocate banning football altogether ,
No I don't want kids hurt , but hell every year Dads teach their kids hw to go hunting , and last I checked that involves killing something to eat .

Should we also ban that and just chew lettuce.




Seriously , I'm all for protecting kids health to advance the sport , but stop short of advocating putting dresses on them or little flags they pull off each others waist to prevent tackling.

We used to be the standard for toughness and ingenuity for the entire World .

The #1 society on this planet to look upto , I don't want the silly frilly sissyfied set to further erode the high ground we forfeit more and more everyday from that perch.

Chinese kids walk to school doing Calculus in their head , we're we have adults who couldn't find the right button on a calculator to complete an addition program .

They have a 10 million man standing army and during recess everybody in school practices martial arts , while workers do the same in organized breaks when they aren't slaving to out produce us , while we contemplate skirts for our QB's and turning a collision sport into a hug and dance social.


Jesus H.

This isnt about being a pussy. Or an erosion of our society. Or whatever other ill of the country you want to point out.

Its about guys suffering brain damage. Its about an NFL player's life expectancy being 20 yrs younger than the average American male. Its about this problem being 100x worse 10-15 yrs from now.

And its about the NFL not giving a fuck.
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby mattvan1 » Tue May 03, 2011 10:41 am

I neglected to mention the absolute number 1 must, IMO, for Pop Warner, Middle School and HS football players is a baseline brain scan before they begin playing. The baseline scan can then be compared to a post concussion scan and help determine if/when a player is ready to return to the field. No, it is not free, but at all levels of the sport football is the cash cow and I would like to see some more of that $$$$ plowed back into safety for the participants instead of supporting girls field hockey (sorry ladies) In 10 years this will be, I hope, mandated at least at the state level for HS athletics.
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Tue May 03, 2011 11:05 am

mattvan1 wrote:I neglected to mention the absolute number 1 must, IMO, for Pop Warner, Middle School and HS football players is a baseline brain scan before they begin playing. The baseline scan can then be compared to a post concussion scan and help determine if/when a player is ready to return to the field. No, it is not free, but at all levels of the sport football is the cash cow and I would like to see some more of that $$$$ plowed back into safety for the participants instead of supporting girls field hockey (sorry ladies) In 10 years this will be, I hope, mandated at least at the state level for HS athletics.



SD:

I'm all for spending whatever it takes to help the kids and also to promote other healthy recreational sports .

We spend money all over the World developing other countries to promote good will , that cash should stay here to make sure we're taking care of our own first .

But you see school district after school district cutting back in extra curriculars or eliminating them all together , because they're broke .

We're going the wrong way , we can't afford not to maintain these programs and do whatever it takes to keep them going and provide our kids the healthy outlets they need .

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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby danwismar » Tue May 03, 2011 1:16 pm

mattvan1 wrote:I neglected to mention the absolute number 1 must, IMO, for Pop Warner, Middle School and HS football players is a baseline brain scan before they begin playing. The baseline scan can then be compared to a post concussion scan and help determine if/when a player is ready to return to the field. No, it is not free, but at all levels of the sport football is the cash cow and I would like to see some more of that $$$$ plowed back into safety for the participants instead of supporting girls field hockey (sorry ladies) In 10 years this will be, I hope, mandated at least at the state level for HS athletics.


The NFL has these same tests of mental acuity or whatever you want to call it...that they make every player take periodically before and during the season. I just read this week where Peyton Manning says he intentionally does poorly on the "baseline" tests so that if he gets dinged during a game, the bar will be set lower to allow him to get back in the game. You gotta love the competitive fire burning there, but...

I wonder how widespread that practice is among NFL players.
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby yogi » Tue May 03, 2011 1:18 pm

IMO the helmet needs to be redone.

A hard core helmet should be replaced with a soft outer shell to minimize the impact.

Why is it that football players that haved had a history of concussions, use a soft outershell covering? I cant remember his name but a little special teams guy on Buffalo wore that soft shell for years and although he ended up looking like the Great Gazoo from the Flintstones, it seemed to be effective for him.

I also noticed that the new batting helmet in baseball has a diiferent look and absorbs more impact.
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby JacksonDysonJackson » Tue May 03, 2011 1:27 pm

Steve Tasker
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue May 03, 2011 1:34 pm

yogi wrote:I cant remember his name but a little special teams guy on Buffalo wore that soft shell for years and although he ended up looking like the Great Gazoo from the Flintstones, it seemed to be effective for him.



Mark Kelso ( a lot of people think it was Tasker) and Steve Wallace both wore special helmets:

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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby JacksonDysonJackson » Tue May 03, 2011 1:48 pm

Damn, you're right. Forgot about Kelso.
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby jb » Tue May 03, 2011 3:48 pm

Three words: madatory mouth guards.

Millions are spent on helmet technology and concussion study but this one, simple, proven approach to significamtly decrease consusions is ignored after the HS level because players don't like them. Nuts.

Then again with no union, who cares if the "workers" don't care enough about their safety to collectively bargain this issue?
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby jb » Tue May 03, 2011 3:50 pm

peeker643 wrote:
yogi wrote:I cant remember his name but a little special teams guy on Buffalo wore that soft shell for years and although he ended up looking like the Great Gazoo from the Flintstones, it seemed to be effective for him.



Mark Kelso ( a lot of people think it was Tasker) and Steve Wallace both wore special helmets:

Image

Image


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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby JCoz » Tue May 03, 2011 3:53 pm

I kind of feel like no modification to the helmet would be nearly as effective as removing helmets entirely...
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby jb » Tue May 03, 2011 3:55 pm

JCoz wrote:I kind of feel like no modification to the helmet would be nearly as effective as removing helmets entirely...



Sweet. We're ahead of the curve in getting players for this rule change

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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue May 03, 2011 4:31 pm

The new helmet doesn't nee more or less padding, or a different material. The safer helmet has already been developed.

What it lacks is the contract.
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby Soul_Thief_420 » Fri May 06, 2011 8:30 am

This is my first post, so please don't throw things at me guys lol...

IMO football players are our modern day gladiators, now think about that...50% of gladiators never walked out of the arenas in rome, and they didn't have multi-million dollar contracts. These kids today all know the risks (i believe) and choose to play, either for fame or fortune. I applaud them for their sacrifices on behalf of my entertainment however let me make this analogy...

if you whore yourself out, can you really cry cuz you got aids?
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby pup » Fri May 06, 2011 8:42 am

Soul_Thief_420 wrote:This is my first post, so please don't throw things at me guys lol...

IMO football players are our modern day gladiators, now think about that...50% of gladiators never walked out of the arenas in rome, and they didn't have multi-million dollar contracts. These kids today all know the risks (i believe) and choose to play, either for fame or fortune. I applaud them for their sacrifices on behalf of my entertainment however let me make this analogy...

if you whore yourself out, can you really cry cuz you got aids?


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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby jb » Fri May 06, 2011 9:01 am

Soul_Thief_420 wrote:This is my first post, so please don't throw things at me guys lol...

IMO football players are our modern day gladiators, now think about that...50% of gladiators never walked out of the arenas in rome, and they didn't have multi-million dollar contracts. These kids today all know the risks (i believe) and choose to play, either for fame or fortune. I applaud them for their sacrifices on behalf of my entertainment however let me make this analogy...

if you whore yourself out, can you really cry cuz you got aids?



welsome. post lots.

I read somewhere else ave life expectency of NFL player is 51. Can that be true?
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby JacksonDysonJackson » Fri May 06, 2011 9:57 am

This article says 55: http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/14477196/nfl-is-killing-its-players-and-league-doesnt-care

Its younger for linemen, but I'm sure thats attributed more to obesity than head injuries.
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Fri May 06, 2011 10:18 am

JacksonDysonJackson wrote: Its younger for linemen, but I'm sure thats attributed more to obesity than head injuries.


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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby mattvan1 » Sat May 07, 2011 9:12 am

Soul_Thief_420 wrote:This is my first post, so please don't throw things at me guys lol...

IMO football players are our modern day gladiators, now think about that...50% of gladiators never walked out of the arenas in rome, and they didn't have multi-million dollar contracts. These kids today all know the risks (i believe) and choose to play, either for fame or fortune. I applaud them for their sacrifices on behalf of my entertainment however let me make this analogy...

if you whore yourself out, can you really cry cuz you got aids?


I think it's important to divide your term "kids" into ages/levels of playing. You're in the NFL, you get paid, (I wish your union would pressure the league into better safety measures instead of just demanding more $$$, but) you're all grown men, so it's your choice.

Your're a 16 year old HS kid who got your bell rung last game and how you get killer headaches during every practice but don't want to tell yoiur coach - those are the "kids" that need more awareness, better protection, increased monitoring.
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby hiko » Sat May 07, 2011 11:15 am

I've been saying for years that the helmet should be a foam/nerf thing like what Steve Wallace is wearing up there (except more so). Foam would greatly absorb the force of the impact.
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby Soul_Thief_420 » Sat May 07, 2011 12:03 pm

mattvan1 wrote:
Soul_Thief_420 wrote:This is my first post, so please don't throw things at me guys lol...

IMO football players are our modern day gladiators, now think about that...50% of gladiators never walked out of the arenas in rome, and they didn't have multi-million dollar contracts. These kids today all know the risks (i believe) and choose to play, either for fame or fortune. I applaud them for their sacrifices on behalf of my entertainment however let me make this analogy...

if you whore yourself out, can you really cry cuz you got aids?


I think it's important to divide your term "kids" into ages/levels of playing. You're in the NFL, you get paid, (I wish your union would pressure the league into better safety measures instead of just demanding more $$$, but) you're all grown men, so it's your choice.

Your're a 16 year old HS kid who got your bell rung last game and how you get killer headaches during every practice but don't want to tell yoiur coach - those are the "kids" that need more awareness, better protection, increased monitoring.


eh....sorry. @46 years old now, everyone in the nfl is a kid, my bad sir... :cheers:
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby mattvan1 » Sat May 07, 2011 2:28 pm

Soul_Thief_420 wrote:
mattvan1 wrote:
Soul_Thief_420 wrote:This is my first post, so please don't throw things at me guys lol...

IMO football players are our modern day gladiators, now think about that...50% of gladiators never walked out of the arenas in rome, and they didn't have multi-million dollar contracts. These kids today all know the risks (i believe) and choose to play, either for fame or fortune. I applaud them for their sacrifices on behalf of my entertainment however let me make this analogy...

if you whore yourself out, can you really cry cuz you got aids?


I think it's important to divide your term "kids" into ages/levels of playing. You're in the NFL, you get paid, (I wish your union would pressure the league into better safety measures instead of just demanding more $$$, but) you're all grown men, so it's your choice.

Your're a 16 year old HS kid who got your bell rung last game and how you get killer headaches during every practice but don't want to tell yoiur coach - those are the "kids" that need more awareness, better protection, increased monitoring.


eh....sorry. @46 years old now, everyone in the nfl is a kid, my bad sir... :cheers:


No worries. When I saw your screen name for a minute I hoped you were a SoulDawg74 stalker.

Sadly, you seem like a normal guy. Welcome anyway.
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby FUDU » Sat May 07, 2011 11:33 pm

hiko wrote:I've been saying for years that the helmet should be a foam/nerf thing like what Steve Wallace is wearing up there (except more so). Foam would greatly absorb the force of the impact.



You do know helmets are not just made of a hard surface like plastic (poly carbons), and that there is significant foam and cushioning reinforcement right?
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby hiko » Sat May 07, 2011 11:40 pm

FUDU wrote:
hiko wrote:I've been saying for years that the helmet should be a foam/nerf thing like what Steve Wallace is wearing up there (except more so). Foam would greatly absorb the force of the impact.



You do know helmets are not just made of a hard surface like plastic (poly carbons), and that there is significant foam and cushioning reinforcement right?
:cheers:


Underneath. Yes, little chunks of foam (the helmet I had in school could not be described as having anything near "significant" foam) surrounded by a hard shell that transmits shock.

Make the whole fucking thing out of foam.

Nerf helmet.

Better yet, make the helmet out of a water-filled bladder that explodes if you spear someone hard enough. Dye the water red. A good hit would no longer kill either player, and might result in a satisfying spray of "blood".
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby FUDU » Sat May 07, 2011 11:46 pm

I'm not so sure a purely foam helmet would suffice due to the need for deflection and dispensing of impact, IIRC the shape is where that comes from, with absorption being secondary priority (Don't quote me on that however). Not sure foam can be used that way, I would think there was a friction factor with foam not allowing it to be safely used that way.
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Re: Duerson's brain injury diagnosed

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Sun May 08, 2011 8:38 am

Meh...

They need to be made like cars, and houses in tornado alleys....absorb the hit and disintegrate
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