Electric or hydrogen?

[jb]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/automakers-promote-hydrogen-cars-obama-administration-remains-skeptical/2011/04/13/AFnQ84iD_story.html?hpid=z3

Interesting

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Good thing they're so fucking "Skeptical". Maybe that'll get us somewhere. I'll shit my own head before I drive one of these piles of garbage.

[Ziner]

Commuter Rail. That is where I think the democrats are misplacing their attention and Republicans are sleep at the wheel or afraid to be called a commie.

The democrats need to re-look at what they are targeting. For example, the high speed rail they worry about in Florida. Tampa > Orlando > Miami What the fuck is that. Who is going to take a train from Tampa to Miami? You either fly or drive. The amount of people who will need to go from downtown Tampa to downtown Miami are very low. If you need to rent a car once you are there why not just drive. Take the resources allocated for the bs high speed rail and make public transportation in large metro areas more prevalent. They are working to get commuter rails out here in Denver. I like it. I wish it would come together quicker and am in full support of the sales tax increase for it. This area can't grow 10% a year with out serious infrastructure changes. Traffic sucks now, plan for the future. Any city that can have commuter rail should do it and that would do far more to ease congestion and stop pollutants than a rail from Orlando to Miami. That shit might be ok on the east coast, but doesn't work many other places.

[Orenthal]

Hydrogen was the Republican baby, and they subsidized it. Democrats and environmental pinko retards opt for the utter retardedness of electric cars, especially plug ins that get the juice from electric power plants.

Couple of good spots from my absolute favourite television series.

Crappy quaility, but I just love the commentary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DfHyGD7 ... re=related

The Hydrogen fuel cell Honda.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AUurBnLbJw

In the end, no matter the subsidy the "better" technology wins.

[jb]

Hydrogen was the Republican baby, and they subsidized it. Democrats and environmental pinko retards opt for the utter retardedness of electric cars, especially plug ins that get the juice from electric power plants.

Couple of good spots from my absolute favourite television series.

Crappy quaility, but I just love the commentary.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DfHyGD7 ... re=related

The Hydrogen fuel cell Honda.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AUurBnLbJw

In the end, no matter the subsidy the "better" technology wins.

Betamax says "hi".

While hudrogen is superior long-term and need to be the ultimate answer to ground transporation, the issue is that there is no ability to actually make the fuel in any significant quantity. Thus "investing" (whatever paltry sums that were invested) in Hydrogen was just a backhanded agenda to elogate the usage of oil based internal combustion to support big oil. If the EV1 had been allowed to continue on its trajectory from it's 1980's start in California, electric would be in significant production right now.

In short, electric for cars for the next 40 years, natural gas for trucks, and then hopefully a real hydrogen infrastructure can be in place in a half century.

What we do know is that internal combustion as we know it needs to go within a decade.

[danwismar]

Well...maybe 2 or 3 decades, JB. Internal combustion isn't going away that soon.

The article says the problem with hydrogen is that it would take 55 billion in investment...so it ain't the money...just the priority. Our president is fine with dropping 50 billion or so of taxpayer money on Bamtrak, which an extremely small segment of our society would use, and which has never been proven broadly profitable without large ongoing operating subsidies.

I've got no dog in the fight. I'll be gone before either technology is widely implemented. (As the owners of GM, I suppose we're all invested in the success of whatever electric car they're trying to sell now and in the future though.)

My technical understanding of the hydrogen technology is exactly zip, but I suppose it will all come down to how much energy is used to create the energy to power vehicles. We know that with electricity, it's a lot...and until the enviros let us start doing it with nukes, it will be with coal and gas. (which makes natural gas powered vehicles seem like a nifty shortcut)

[Orenthal]

Better is obviously subjective. Marginally better picture quality with betamax, but more recording time, cheaper, and better distribution/licensing lead to VHS dominance.

Feh to that whole post. Electric blows, and the plug-ins are at the summit of hypocrisy. Go ahead and pay the premium for the polluting batteries and fossil fuel required of a hybrid. My petrol powerd car still has less of an overall "carbon footprint", is only marginally less efficient, and is more fun and practical.

Forget electric entirely, focus all investment on hydrogen and better batteries, and eek out more efficiency from gasoline engines in the meantime.

[Orenthal]

Sometimes a company give up on something, the EV1, because its a failure. But hey, maybe they should have continued making a handful of cars at an insane cost, so a infinitely small group of people can have their lil electric car. Save the world woohoo!

[FUDU]

Combustion engines are going nowhere, nor should they, so deal with it. It is a legit working technology that is still being improved. The technology gets thrown under the bus in the energy debate not based on it's own merit(s) but based on our future wants and desires (especially b/c we really do not know much about long term oil supplies).

Hydrogen is probably a pipe dream, but worth the efforts for long term. The more I read about electric the more bleh is seems to me. The tech as means to daily transportation is so limited that IMO we should not subsidize one penny of future development. Not to mention the public, the smart public anyway, isn't going to touch it until the price drops 20% or more and the range double or triples. 25K + to go 40 miles, fuck you I'll ride a bicycle.

Plus as mentioned the infrastructure is not capable of anything other than gasoline powered transportation right now. Retooling the infrastructure is a major project that will need internal combustion engines to complete such an endeavor, despite our impatience with the technology or the efforts of the environmental crack monkeys.

[mistero]

Electricty provided by nuclear plants. Cars run on electricty. What am I missing about the carbon footprint yada yada?

I want the middle east out of relevance.

The Nissan Leaf goes 100 miles on a change. I'm in line for the 2011 model.

[FUDU]

Not in the real world mistero, without ideal conditions you're going to fall short of the advertised range probably 95% of the time.

Just one of many articles on the issue: http://blogs.wsj.com/japanrealtime/2010/12/03/nissans-electric-leaf-how-far-can-it-go/

[mistero]

Ok, I need 64 miles round trip. I think a 100 mile promise can get me that far. Besides my employer is bound to offer a plug in sooner rather than later.

[Triple-S]

Commuter Rail. That is where I think the democrats are misplacing their attention and Republicans are sleep at the wheel or afraid to be called a commie.

I only want commuter rail if you are able to do a couple of things

A.) Have it be made by AMURRICAN companies
B.) HIGHSPEED, don't give me that 35 mph garbage, it has to go at a max speed of at least 186
C.) It's maintained by private companies.

Also, anything under 4 hours and over 9 hours in drive time is impractical.

for example, Cleveland to Columbus wouldn't make a lot of sense, but something like Cleveland to Nashville, Washington DC, St. Louis, Milwaukee, Chicago and Indy make a lot of sense.

[FUDU]

Ok, I need 64 miles round trip. I think a 100 mile promise can get me that far. Besides my employer is bound to offer a plug in sooner rather than later.

I forget where you live mistero and that comes into play big time, weather, terrain etc. Don't be surprised if you get closer to 64 RTM than you do 100. Not to mention the time to recharge, imagine needing to travel an extra 20 miles after the work day, you're at the mercy of mother time then. Also even if the EV is your second car, well you're not really getting off of oil dependence then are you?

I'm not judging you by any means, I just think the cons outweigh the pros by a lot and ultimately owning one of these as your primary vehicle will be very restraining.

[Ziner]

Commuter Rail. That is where I think the democrats are misplacing their attention and Republicans are sleep at the wheel or afraid to be called a commie.

I only want commuter rail if you are able to do a couple of things

A.) Have it be made by AMURRICAN companies
B.) HIGHSPEED, don't give me that 35 mph garbage, it has to go at a max speed of at least 186
C.) It's maintained by private companies.

Also, anything under 4 hours and over 9 hours in drive time is impractical.

for example, Cleveland to Columbus wouldn't make a lot of sense, but something like Cleveland to Nashville, Washington DC, St. Louis, Milwaukee, Chicago and Indy make a lot of sense.

Not talking about that type of rail. I am talking about commuter metro rail systems. Chicago has it, NYC, Boston, SF, etc. I ain't taking a train from Cleveland to Nashville. I am going to fly.

I am talking about a train from Hudson or Avon to Downtown. I took it when I lived in Chicago when I was in the suburbs for a while, no traffic, read the paper, in to work within 30 minutes. Cleveland might not be the best place for commuter rail since I am not sure the downtown population could support it, but cities like Denver, Atlanta, LA even could use a huge upgrade. As well, I know at least Chicago could use more trains, tracks, stations etc. Venture to guess the other city systems could be improved as well. People driving from Cleveland to Nashville once a year aren't polluting nearly as much as the cars sitting on the shoreway who drive back and forth from Mentor everyday.

Ease traffic and pollution and as an added bonus all the places that these rail stops come in to instantly increase property values. Not to mention the impact you could have on a downtown night life and DUI's if people had a cheap, safe and effective mode of transportation back home.

These trains would likely need to be supported by tax dollars and most of them are run by the government as well. To me they are no different than roads. Whats the difference if they add 2 lanes to every highway around here or spend the money building a rail that would ease congestion just as well. There are cities that commuter rail makes a ton more sense than spending billions to have a Tampa to Miami high speed rail route. The ones in Chicago are regular trains, run on diesel I believe, and they hit up to 70 mph when able to. They are plenty fast even running at 2/3rds that speed to get you downtown in an jiffy.

[FUDU]

Ziner is correct in pointing out the key differences in rail systems.

Any legit thoughts on building a long distance system need to start and end with the best of the best, otherwise why bother. Maglev or bust.

[JJN]

Chicago's L is electric trains. Their Metra (which brings further out users to the L) is diesel. For a city Cleveland's size, an all electric L-style might be enough. That could just be my love of riding the L speaking though.

[Ziner]

Chicago's L is electric trains. Their Metra (which brings further out users to the L) is diesel. For a city Cleveland's size, an all electric L-style might be enough. That could just be my love of riding the L speaking though.

I was thinking more along the lines of the Metra, I would think the electric system might be a little tough to run to Mentor/Hudson/Avon distances.

Maybe not though, just googled and O'Hare is 18 miles from downtown. That is for them to decide, I envisioned a Metra type system where people actually had seats, suburban stations, free or dirt cheap parking with reliable service.

But I am with you, I had a strange love of riding the L too.... but I rode the Brown Line.... the upper class line. Smelled far better than the blue or red lines.

[Larvell Blanks]

"If you give them great coffee and great music, they'll ride."

[FUDU]

Hey what happens to CDT's dumb post?

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Hey what happens to CDT's dumb post?

Which one?

I deleted it because I didn't want to offend sensitive Republicans. I'd rather drive a fart powered scooter than a fucking electric or Republican backed hydrogen shitbomb car.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

Hey what happens to CDT's dumb post?

Which one?

I deleted it because I didn't want to offend sensitive Republicans. I'd rather drive a fart powered scooter than a fucking electric or Republican backed hydrogen shitbomb car.

If you design one that runs on bullshit you'll be set for life

[FUDU]

OK since you admitted to have many dumb posts I'll let you be....for now.

But just for S&G's, you know the Repubes support the 2nd Amendment and your right to own firearms, are you going to sell all your guns now?

[Cerebral_DownTime]

No doubt. I live in a 70% Republican neighborhood. No shortage of bullshitters around these parts. I could just have them talk into my tank.

But alas I no time to invent such an engine. I probably could though, i've got all kinds of tools. I even have a machete, and I have no idea why. I think someone just left it here and it became mine by default.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

OK since you admitted to have many dumb posts I'll let you be....for now.

But just for S&G's, you know the Repubes support the 2nd Amendment and your right to own firearms, are you going to sell all your guns now?

HURRRR!!!! What a stupid question.

Yep. Because ever since Vladimir Obama became POTUS, all the Dems have tried to do is take my guns. It's a stupid myth Republicans use that only hillbillies fall for.

I ain't buying no fucking GOP backed Hydrogen car....... or a Liberal backed electric car for that matter.

[FUDU]

CDT are you Ted Nugent?

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Damnit. You got me.

Wango Tango everyone.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

Machettes are like cross bows and 1600 fps pellet guns

Once you have them you'll find something to shoot at...or chop

They work great on watermelon, cantalope, even cutting steaks... and it'll make a statement on your neighborhood Man Scale

[FUDU]

Machettes are like cross bows and 1600 fps pellet guns

Once you have them you'll find something to shoot at...or chop

They work great on watermelon, cantalope, even cutting steaks... and it'll make a statement on your neighborhood Man Scale

Well if he's Ted Nugent the only thing he's looking up at on the man scale is Chuck Norris.

[jb]

Combustion engines are going nowhere, nor should they,
.

What does that mean you mongoloid bike rider?

This isn't right, left, enviro, carbon footprint; whatever.

Internal combustion fueled by oil has MAYBE another 40 years, max, and during the last few decades the cost will rise at an enormous rate. Technologies don't turn on dimes like that when you have those infrastructures. You fuckin' deal with it.

Personally, I think the asnwer is "both". Clearly there are no hydrogen fuel cell suppliers yet and the technology isn't there. Like Dan writes, it's a pipe dream. But electric hybred probably isn't truly renewable or inexhaustive yet either.

Reality is probably a hundred year model where internal cumbustion is obsolete ion a few as 2 decades, electric fills the gap for pasenger vehicals and natural gas runs larger trucks for the next 50 years, and then by then anyone who doesn't want to live like China in the 60's and ride bikes with FUDU to Kamms' Corners for a 40 and a trip to the Tom Kat Klub best hoome hydrogen gets here by then.

Too bad the Chinese will have the STEM professionals and investment money to corner the market.

[FUDU]

Dude combustion engines go 150K without breaking a sweat anymore, 15-20 years THAT was a pipe dream. We were supposed to run out of oil in 1975, 5 years before SS was supposed to run out as well, etc etc etc.

Yeah something else will take the place of the CE, and something SHOULD, but it ain't happening inside of a decade, nor is there anything close to dethroning it on the horizon either.

Without the combustion engine you wouldn't have been born JB.

[jb]

Dude combustion engines go 150K without breaking a sweat anymore, 15-20 years THAT was a pipe dream. We were supposed to run out of oil in 1975, 5 years before SS was supposed to run out as well, etc etc etc.

Yeah something else will take the place of the CE, and something SHOULD, but it ain't happening inside of a decade, nor is there anything close to dethroning it on the horizon either.

Without the combustion engine you wouldn't have been born JB.

It's no secret how you got your FUDU name, and threads like this show why.

We have 8 years of oil resevres left in the States pert the most recent estimates, even with ANWAR. So go on and bury your head in the unremoved snow on Munn Rd ur always cryin' about when ur not riding your short-bike.

And I was an oops baby by two 30 + year old parents who more than likely had a bungled rythem method cycle becsue they were good Catholics. They didn't need any back seat of a car to conceive me. So the internal combustion engine didn't mean dick to my exsitance.

[FUDU]

You buy that swamp land in Florida yet?

...and don't think I didn't notice either.

[jb]

You buy that swamp land in Florida yet?

...and don't think I didn't notice either.

Yeah, with the tip your Mom gave me.

WTF are you talking about?

[Cerebral_DownTime]

What does that mean you mongoloid bike rider?

Oh wow.

Without the combustion engine you wouldn't have been born JB.

I don't even......

You buy that swamp land in Florida yet?

...and don't think I didn't notice either.

Yeah, with the tip your Mom gave me.

WTF are you talking about?

This is like a conversation bewteen 2 drunks on cell phones.

JB, you called him a retard and managed to get in a mom blast. Productive Tuesday night?

[mistero]

Combustion engines are going nowhere, nor should they,
.

ride bikes with FUDU to Kamms' Corners for a 40 and a trip to the Tom Kat Klub best hoome hydrogen gets here by then.

.

Holy crap. I saw the fattest white trash chick dancing topless there when I was underaged sneaky drinking circa 1985.