The Real Dope on Gabbert

[SoulDawg74]

Mayock can spin it any way he wants .

the hard truth is that Gabbert doesn't have an elite arm .

Quote McShay at his pro day, "Its good enough to make all the throws "

"Though not Elite like the Ryans or the Newtons "

Didn't view him as an upgrade over Colt because I suspicioned such was the case when he hid at the combine, and definitely don't want him now.

Not at those prices.

If Newtons gone and he's there i hope they pass and go defense while looking at Christian Ponder in the second , whose star is rising fast , conventional offense so footwork is not an issue while showing he's a tough QB who plays hurt and came out labeled as the best QB at the Senior bowl, with a gun and excellent football IQ in lue of a total project.


SoulDawg

WAR : OUR TIME HAS COME

[Triple-S]

Funny, guess who else didn't have a great arm

Peyton Manning's NFL detractors in '98: arm strength barely above average, didn't spin it, just an average Pro Day workout.

Also, Tom Brady was panned by the scouts for having a poor arm, as was Drew Brees coming out of college at ol' purdue.

But yeah, lets keep hyping up arm strength over stuff like intelligence and accuracy in a QB, because we all could use the 2nd coming of DA.

[peeker643]

What was the 411 on Colin Kaepernick at the combine? Did he have his pro day yet?

[SoulDawg74]

What was the 411 on Colin Kaepernick at the combine? Did he have his pro day yet?

SD:

Harbugh has been huddling up with that one , the tidbit i got from NFLN.


SoulDawg

[SoulDawg74]

Funny, guess who else didn't have a great arm

Peyton Manning's NFL detractors in '98: arm strength barely above average, didn't spin it, just an average Pro Day workout.

Also, Tom Brady was panned by the scouts for having a poor arm, as was Drew Brees coming out of college at ol' purdue.

But yeah, lets keep hyping up arm strength over stuff like intelligence and accuracy in a QB, because we all could use the 2nd coming of DA.

SD;

gabberts yPA is not much greater than some running backs at 6.7 IIRC.

Thats abysmal for College with no press coverage or sophisticated zones.

Dude had offfield issue which get hushed up and pooh poohed , drug rumors so exnay on the einstein Paint job.

Kid is just a bigger physical package than Colt who failed in his big games and has no
appreciable advantage in arm strength over what we already got.

if he's the choice , I'd rather pass and go defense.

If your spending Elite cash , you should be buying an elite prospect.


SoulDawg

[Fire Marshall Bill]

AJ Green @ 6 ...or DE. Anything but QB

...and I doubt the Browns ever gave Gabbert even a passing thought or that Prima Newton is a subject of conversation...

[motherscratcher]

If Newton's gone, I don't want a QB until at least round 4. I think we can get someone much more useful immediately in rounds 2 and 3.

SD - If we don't go QB with #6 (which looks like the case) why would we want to go in the 2nd round? Wouldn't we be better off waiting until next year at that point? Nothing is certain, but we are bound to be drafting high again next year.

In fact, I'd say that if we aren't drafting near the top again next year it must be because Colt is everything we want him to be. But if he's not, we are going to be able to bag someone better at the top in 2012 than Ponder. Doncha think?

[SoulDawg74]

If Newton's gone, I don't want a QB until at least round 4. I think we can get someone much more useful immediately in rounds 2 and 3.

SD - If we don't go QB with #6 (which looks like the case) why would we want to go in the 2nd round? Wouldn't we be better off waiting until next year at that point? Nothing is certain, but we are bound to be drafting high again next year.

In fact, I'd say that if we aren't drafting near the top again next year it must be because Colt is everything we want him to be. But if he's not, we are going to be able to bag someone better at the top in 2012 than Ponder. Doncha think?

SD:

Hell I'm down witcha on passing on a QB to the later rounds if we miss on Newton and building the defense and augmenting the receiving corp in between , but i have to give Ponder his due .

View him as more than a flyer project , moves well ran an offense from under center so he's well versed in the 2 , 5 , and seven step drops plus he's smart and he's tough and can actually contribute this year in a pinch if we need him which isn't necessarily the case with more of a project.

Will play hurt takes command and demands respect .

Has solid size and an arm which rocks and he's accurate on the move or out of the pocket .

Stock is rising and he may go in the first with so many teams desperate for signal callers , so this could be a mute point midway thru the first day anyway.


SoulDawg

[jta1975]

What was the 411 on Colin Kaepernick at the combine? Did he have his pro day yet?

No his pro day is 3-27.

He got praise for his rocket arm. Very raw coming from a spread option offense. Footwork is not good coming from under center. He is a project mechanics wise but most feel he will be fine(footwork wise) with time because he is an elite athlete. That was the buzz.

[peeker643]

What was the 411 on Colin Kaepernick at the combine? Did he have his pro day yet?

No his pro day is 3-27.

He got praise for his rocket arm. Very raw coming from a spread option offense. Footwork is not good coming from under center. He is a project mechanics wise but most feel he will be fine(footwork wise) with time because he is an elite athlete. That was the buzz.

Any round projections being discussed? This QB intrigues me.

[jta1975]

What was the 411 on Colin Kaepernick at the combine? Did he have his pro day yet?

No his pro day is 3-27.

He got praise for his rocket arm. Very raw coming from a spread option offense. Footwork is not good coming from under center. He is a project mechanics wise but most feel he will be fine(footwork wise) with time because he is an elite athlete. That was the buzz.

Any round projections being discussed? This QB intrigues me.

Projections vary from 2-4. It really depends on how you view Dalton and Ponder. He is in a battle with these guys to be fifth behind the big 3 and Locker.

Jim Harbaugh has already went for a private workout. He is picking up steam as the process plays out. If they truly have confidence there will be slotting for draft picks he will go higher than projections due to his possible upside. He reminds me a lot of Freeman from an upside standpoint.

I don't see him getting out of the second actually. If the Bills,Titans,Vikings,Seahawks don't get one in the first. I see them taking him in the second.

[JacksonDysonJackson]

Whooops! I must have stumbled into thecharlottefan.com by accident.

[SoulDawg74]

What was the 411 on Colin Kaepernick at the combine? Did he have his pro day yet?

No his pro day is 3-27.

He got praise for his rocket arm. Very raw coming from a spread option offense. Footwork is not good coming from under center. He is a project mechanics wise but most feel he will be fine(footwork wise) with time because he is an elite athlete. That was the buzz.

Any round projections being discussed? This QB intrigues me.

Projections vary from 2-4. It really depends on how you view Dalton and Ponder. He is in a battle with these guys to be fifth behind the big 3 and Locker.

Jim Harbaugh has already went for a private workout. He is picking up steam as the process plays out. If they truly have confidence there will be slotting for draft picks he will go higher than projections due to his possible upside. He reminds me a lot of Freeman from an upside standpoint.

I don't see him getting out of the second actually. If the Bills,Titans,Vikings,Seahawks don't get one in the first. I see them taking him in the second.

SD:

This kid is as raw as they come , but his skillset has teams drooling , somebody will view him as a poor mans Newton and he'll get taken much sooner than many a more polished cohort.

ball explodes out of his hand , has a true live arm and is Oakland bound if Sang Fran or one of the aforementioned you called out don't save him from purgatory.

Whereas a Ponder could conceivably come in and immediately execute your offense , this kid is
projected to take quite a bit longer with a higher ceiling as the payoff if you can bring him around.

SoulDawg

[hiko]

My issue with Gabby is that his skill set isn't much different than Colt's, so I'm not sure he's a significant upgrade. His ceiling is lower than a lot of the other top prospects.

I too would be much happier passing on Gabby and getting someone in Round 4 - Kaepernick if he was still there (though he likely won't be).

[FUDU]

No comments on the irony of this thread title and OP yet?

[jta1975]

What was the 411 on Colin Kaepernick at the combine? Did he have his pro day yet?

No his pro day is 3-27.

He got praise for his rocket arm. Very raw coming from a spread option offense. Footwork is not good coming from under center. He is a project mechanics wise but most feel he will be fine(footwork wise) with time because he is an elite athlete. That was the buzz.

Any round projections being discussed? This QB intrigues me.

Projections vary from 2-4. It really depends on how you view Dalton and Ponder. He is in a battle with these guys to be fifth behind the big 3 and Locker.

Jim Harbaugh has already went for a private workout. He is picking up steam as the process plays out. If they truly have confidence there will be slotting for draft picks he will go higher than projections due to his possible upside. He reminds me a lot of Freeman from an upside standpoint.

I don't see him getting out of the second actually. If the Bills,Titans,Vikings,Seahawks don't get one in the first. I see them taking him in the second.

SD:

This kid is as raw as they come , but his skillset has teams drooling , somebody will view him as a poor mans Newton and he'll get taken much sooner than many a more polished cohort.

ball explodes out of his hand , has a true live arm and is Oakland bound if Sang Fran or one of the aforementioned you called out don't save him from purgatory.

Whereas a Ponder could conceivably come in and immediately execute your offense , this kid is
projected to take quite a bit longer with a higher ceiling as the payoff if you can bring him around.

SoulDawg

He is pretty smart too. Some value the Wonderlic some don't. He scored a 37.
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/NFL-source-Colin-Kaepernick-scored-a-37-on-Wonderlic.html

[Fire Marshall Bill]

No comments on the irony of this thread title and OP yet?

Thank you. I thought it was just me

[SoulDawg74]

No comments on the irony of this thread title and OP yet?

Thank you. I thought it was just me

[Fire Marshall Bill]

No comments on the irony of this thread title and OP yet?

Thank you. I thought it was just me

I got 10 bucks that says you're clueles as to what we're talking about

[SoulDawg74]

No comments on the irony of this thread title and OP yet?

Thank you. I thought it was just me

I got 10 bucks that says you're clueles as to what we're talking about

SD:

Ah Contraire Mon Ami .

I am the master of the double entendre .

So will that be cash check or charge .






SoulDawg

[RickNashEquilibrium]

This places is slowly turning into the Tribe boards.

/HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE

//I'm only partially joking.

[SoulDawg74]

This places is slowly turning into the Tribe boards.

/HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE

//I'm only partially joking.

SD:

That be a shame , because baseball as a sport in America is dieing.

On a side not Mort says Newton will go before Gabbert .

Teams don't view him as elite , Clayton relays they're not enamored with his 30 % accuracy while throwing on the move despite being a mobile QB with his 4.62 forty time.

Further, on film his deep ball accuracy is not there .

Said earlier i didn't view him as an upgrade over Colt ,and that goes double now .

At least Locker has an arm , even though the scare crow would give him a run for his money in his game time decision making.


SoulDawg

[SoulDawg74]

This places is slowly turning into the Tribe boards.

/HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE

//I'm only partially joking.

SD:

That be a shame , because baseball as a sport in America is dieing.

On a side not Mort says Newton will go before Gabbert .

Teams don't view him as elite , Clayton relays they're not enamored with his 30 % accuracy while throwing on the move despite being a mobile QB with his 4.62 forty time.

Further, on film his deep ball accuracy is not there .

Said earlier i didn't view him as an upgrade over Colt ,and that goes double now .

At least Locker has an arm , even though the scare crow would give him a run for his money in his game time decision making.


SoulDawg

[RedDawg]

I think its far more important where the QB goes than his arm strength, height, Wonderlic score or anything else. Anything.

Cam Newton could be a Pro Bowler in AZ if he goes there. He could be a monster bust in CIN or BUF. Peyton Manning would have won 7 games this year on the Browns. Derek Anderson wins 10 on the Patriots.

Same with Gabbert.

Although being good at the QB position has more say on wins and losses than any other position, I say everything around the QB has a huge role in how well he plays. If we had a fairly talented 8-9 win type team - I could see taking Newton to pair with McCoy. Then you need something to get you over the top, and then it makes sense to double down at QB.

If the Browns think that McCoy MIGHT just be good enough to get the job done, then it makes a lot more sense to NOT take a QB and upgrade some positions that we KNOW aren't good enough right now.

[hiko]

I think its far more important where the QB goes than his arm strength, height, Wonderlic score or anything else. Anything.

Cam Newton could be a Pro Bowler in AZ if he goes there. He could be a monster bust in CIN or BUF. Peyton Manning would have won 7 games this year on the Browns. Derek Anderson wins 10 on the Patriots.

Whoa whoa whoa now! I agree that location location location has a lot to do with a QB's eventual success (or lack thereof). But DA winning 10 in New England? A team whose success was almost single handedly predicated by the play of the QB? A team with a mediocre (at best) Running Game and weak WR's?

DA wins 7 games there, tops. That's just how huge the gulf is between Tom Brady and Drek Anderson.

[RedDawg]

NE did win 14 this year. And DA did win 10 in CLE in '07. I don't think its a stretch at all. In fact, that's why QBs are so important because they ARE 3-4 extra wins if they are studs.

You don't think that the rest of NE's '10 team and coaching is at least as good as the Browns in '07? I'm not sure I call the WR corps weak though they are lacking in star power. But I'll take Welker over Edwards every day of the week and ten times on Sunday.

Jamal Lewis vs. Law Firm
Braybray vs. Wes Welker
Crennel vs. Belichik

So...if Tom Brady is worth MORE than +4 wins, then we would have been undefeated if he was wearing seal and brown for us in'07?

[jb]

So...if Tom Brady is worth MORE than +4 wins, then we would have been undefeated if he was wearing seal and brown for us in'07?

I know you're doing the hyperbole thing. At least I think I know. But in all seriousness?

How about 15 - 1 ? Look at it. Think about it.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/2007.htm

[hiko]

NE did win 14 this year. And DA did win 10 in CLE in '07. I don't think its a stretch at all. In fact, that's why QBs are so important because they ARE 3-4 extra wins if they are studs.

You don't think that the rest of NE's '10 team and coaching is at least as good as the Browns in '07? I'm not sure I call the WR corps weak though they are lacking in star power. But I'll take Welker over Edwards every day of the week and ten times on Sunday.

Jamal Lewis vs. Law Firm
Braybray vs. Wes Welker
Crennel vs. Belichik

So...if Tom Brady is worth MORE than +4 wins, then we would have been undefeated if he was wearing seal and brown for us in'07?

I simply believe that it took a little while before the NFL figured out how to defense Drek. Since the end of the '07 season, he's had maybe one good game. He's a liability now. The '07 Drek Anderson that no one had yet figured out how to play might've won 10 or 11 games in New England last year. The '10 Drek Anderson? No f-ing way.

And, yeah, if Drek got the Browns 10 wins in '07, Brady would've gotten more. You have to remember that the Browns schedule that year was loaded with patsies. They beat exactly one team with a winning record on the way to that farcical 10 win season. It would've been a farcical 12 or 13 win team in Cleveland in '07 with Brady, and they would've gotten booted first round... just like the Pats did this year.

PS - 2007 Jamal was better than the Law Firm, and 2007 BrayBray caught 16 TD's.

[RedDawg]

So...if Tom Brady is worth MORE than +4 wins, then we would have been undefeated if he was wearing seal and brown for us in'07?

I know you're doing the hyperbole thing. At least I think I know. But in all seriousness?

How about 15 - 1 ? Look at it. Think about it.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/cle/2007.htm

I'd put them at 14-2, with wins over the Ravens, Cardinals, Bengals and maybe the Steelers.

We've seen great QBs go from good to bad teams, and vice versa too many times to not give the team they are on the proper weight it deserves.

You switch Cassell and Brady, KC wins 12-13 and NE wins 11-12.

3-4 games is a lot dude. Thinking the QB is 7 or 8 games difference is way too much IMO.

[hiko]

3-4 games is a lot dude. Thinking the QB is 7 or 8 games difference is way too much IMO.

It is, but I still would submit that some of those 13-3, 14-2 Colts teams would've been 7-9 with Jim Sorgi starting. Some QB's are THAT important to their team, and some QB's are THAT useless.

[RedDawg]

For giggles:

Jim Sorgi
Career 89.9 QB rating 99/156 63.5% 929 yds 6.0 6 TDs 1 INT

Derek Anderson
2007 82.5 rating 298/527 56.5% 3,787 yds 7.2 29 TDs 19 INT

Granted that most of Sorgi's stats came in situations where he was sitting on a lead, but it's all I got on him.

Could Sorgi have gone 10-6 with the Browns in '07? I'd guess yes. Dink and Dunk guy vs. Chucker Deep.

What would be the Browns record in '07 with Manning as the QB? I'm guessing 14-2. So I'm saying Manning is about +4 wins on an NFL team with poor to mediocre QB play.

By that logic, this year's Browns are about 9-7 with Manning at the helm, which sounds about right.

Is McCoy as good as Anderson/Sorgi? Almost definitely. Is he as good as Manning? Duh, no. It looks like he's somewhere between the two,but with the potential to be as good as All-Pro and SB champion Drew Brees.

If there is a significant chance that McCoy turns into a pretty good NFL QB, and the Browns FO obviously thinks that chance is significant, then its unwise to draft a QB with the #6 slot.

I have more to back that statement up that I'll put into another post.

[RedDawg]

It would be a tremendous and foolish gamble to take a QB at the #6 slot because there are just too many scenarios where this is a bad idea.


Scenario 1. Both McCoy and the rook look great.

In this scenario you have to trade one of them and get at least the value of the #6 slot to break even. No way a team that is this bad, with this many holes can sit on a resource like a starter caliber QB sitting on the bench. Having both do well AND being able to trade one of them for good value seems highly unlikely to me. SD straight up got lucky when they took Rivers and Brees still played pretty well.

Unfortunately, trading McCoy and keeping the rook with his bigger salary means we lose some of the value of taking a gem in the 3rd and trading him and his smaller salary.

This suggests that the best case scenario is to take the rook QB, develop him, and trade him for greater than the #6 pick to someone else.


Scenario 2. McCoy looks good/great, rook is average or mediocre and sits the bench with a huge salary.

Busted pick, and a complete waste. Not sure how you can argue this.


Scenario 3. McCoy gets beaten out by rook and becomes backup. aka "SD74 option."

Only option that justifies taking Newton or Gabbert with the pick, but unfortunately there is a gaping hole elsewhere on the roster that will require an outstanding draft or great FA get to fill. If you KNOW that McCoy doesn't have what it takes AND that the rook is going to be starter quality, then this is the way to go.

I find that a huge reach based on what the FO has said about McCoy so far.


4. Both McCoy and the Rook struggle.

Worst case scenario; the Browns suck ass, and we have the added pain of not having that top WR, CB, DE or DT that we could have taken and who likely will bend up being a Pro Bowler elsewhere.



So...unless Heckert sees some great value in later rounds on the DL, it just doesn't make sense to me to take a QB unless they are can't miss like Luck. I don't think Newton or Gabbert are anywhere close to a sure thing as Luck is.

If McCoy pans out = WIN. If he doesn't, bench him, start Seneca Wallace and start getting ready to make Luck the #1 overall pick in 2012.

[SoulDawg74]

For giggles:

Jim Sorgi
Career 89.9 QB rating 99/156 63.5% 929 yds 6.0 6 TDs 1 INT

Derek Anderson
2007 82.5 rating 298/527 56.5% 3,787 yds 7.2 29 TDs 19 INT

Granted that most of Sorgi's stats came in situations where he was sitting on a lead, but it's all I got on him.

Could Sorgi have gone 10-6 with the Browns in '07? I'd guess yes. Dink and Dunk guy vs. Chucker Deep.

What would be the Browns record in '07 with Manning as the QB? I'm guessing 14-2. So I'm saying Manning is about +4 wins on an NFL team with poor to mediocre QB play.

By that logic, this year's Browns are about 9-7 with Manning at the helm, which sounds about right.

Is McCoy as good as Anderson/Sorgi? Almost definitely. Is he as good as Manning? Duh, no. It looks like he's somewhere between the two,but with the potential to be as good as All-Pro and SB champion Drew Brees.

If there is a significant chance that McCoy turns into a pretty good NFL QB, and the Browns FO obviously thinks that chance is significant, then its unwise to draft a QB with the #6 slot.

I have more to back that statement up that I'll put into another post.

SD:

Brees has an arm , allways did even in College .

He throws one of the best deep balls in the pro Game .

In that regard Right now with that little pistol Colt can't carry his jock strap.


SoulDawg

[pup]

For giggles:

Jim Sorgi
Career 89.9 QB rating 99/156 63.5% 929 yds 6.0 6 TDs 1 INT

Derek Anderson
2007 82.5 rating 298/527 56.5% 3,787 yds 7.2 29 TDs 19 INT

Granted that most of Sorgi's stats came in situations where he was sitting on a lead, but it's all I got on him.

Could Sorgi have gone 10-6 with the Browns in '07? I'd guess yes. Dink and Dunk guy vs. Chucker Deep.

What would be the Browns record in '07 with Manning as the QB? I'm guessing 14-2. So I'm saying Manning is about +4 wins on an NFL team with poor to mediocre QB play.

By that logic, this year's Browns are about 9-7 with Manning at the helm, which sounds about right.

Is McCoy as good as Anderson/Sorgi? Almost definitely. Is he as good as Manning? Duh, no. It looks like he's somewhere between the two,but with the potential to be as good as All-Pro and SB champion Drew Brees.

If there is a significant chance that McCoy turns into a pretty good NFL QB, and the Browns FO obviously thinks that chance is significant, then its unwise to draft a QB with the #6 slot.

I have more to back that statement up that I'll put into another post.

Here is the problem with that. Derek Anderson, for a majority of that season was not mediocre or poor. So Peyton is worth four wins over good QB play.

[RedDawg]

"Here is the problem with that. Derek Anderson, for a majority of that season was not mediocre or poor."

Chicken or the Egg man. I say that Derek Anderson did not look mediocre or poor was because of the team around him. Your take means that we have to buy that somehow DA elevated his play for roughly 12 games that year when he was unable to repeat that at any other time in his career.

I am pretty comfortable saying that DA value as a NFL QB is somewhere between poor to mediocre based on the sample size of his entire career. Even in his Pro Bowl alternate season he posted pretty mediocre numbers.

There were remarkably few injuries that year on the Browns IIRC, and the threat of J. Lewis gained Edwards a lot of single coverage which allowed DA to play to his strength of being able to chuck it deep. Yet he still posted a low completion % and threw 19 INTs to go with his 29 TDs. That roughly 3:2 ratio is NOT GOOD.

Turnovers are the most important thing in football, and DA gave the football away like it was on fire.

[e0y2e3]

Wow - you front like some hard ass HS football coach yet you place no value at all on film getting out their on a player with one skill (CHUCK IT DEEP!!@#!) and coaches at the highest level not adjusting?

Fucking joke of a coach if I ever saw one. No wonder you're just a position coach.

[pup]

"Here is the problem with that. Derek Anderson, for a majority of that season was not mediocre or poor."

Chicken or the Egg man. I say that Derek Anderson did not look mediocre or poor was because of the team around him. Your take means that we have to buy that somehow DA elevated his play for roughly 12 games that year when he was unable to repeat that at any other time in his career.

I am pretty comfortable saying that DA value as a NFL QB is somewhere between poor to mediocre based on the sample size of his entire career. Even in his Pro Bowl alternate season he posted pretty mediocre numbers.

There were remarkably few injuries that year on the Browns IIRC, and the threat of J. Lewis gained Edwards a lot of single coverage which allowed DA to play to his strength of being able to chuck it deep. Yet he still posted a low completion % and threw 19 INTs to go with his 29 TDs. That roughly 3:2 ratio is NOT GOOD.

Turnovers are the most important thing in football, and DA gave the football away like it was on fire.

What difference does it make why DA played well through 3/4 of that season? The fact is he did.

[RedDawg]

Wow - you front like some hard ass HS football coach yet you place no value at all on film getting out their on a player with one skill (CHUCK IT DEEP!!@#!) and coaches at the highest level not adjusting?

Fucking joke of a coach if I ever saw one. No wonder you're just a position coach.

Yeah, NFL coaches need a full season of film to realize that a guy is one-dimensional. It's not like anyone thought to double cover Braylon or pressure him that whole year. LeBeau, Marvin Lewis, and Belichik and the best defensive minds just had no answer for the mighty DA until they had the off-season to realize that he was inaccurate in the short and mid-range passing game and forced the ball under pressure.

Course we all knew that as Browns fans, but they hadn't realized it yet.

Bullshit. DA put up respectable numbers for less than one season because he was in the perfect situation that year. Our defense was awful so we had to try to outscore people, the OL and Jamal Lewis were actually healthy most of the year.

And btw, get your insults straight. I'm a fucking joke of a defensive coordinator of a team that has made the OHSAA playoffs six years in a row.

Thank goodness the head coach hasn't realized I don't know jack shit about football yet. I guess the smoke and mirrors is still working.

So glad some fatass with a beer in one hand and a remote in the other hand was nice enough to bring me back to reality.

Thanks!

[RedDawg]

"Here is the problem with that. Derek Anderson, for a majority of that season was not mediocre or poor."

Chicken or the Egg man. I say that Derek Anderson did not look mediocre or poor was because of the team around him. Your take means that we have to buy that somehow DA elevated his play for roughly 12 games that year when he was unable to repeat that at any other time in his career.

I am pretty comfortable saying that DA value as a NFL QB is somewhere between poor to mediocre based on the sample size of his entire career. Even in his Pro Bowl alternate season he posted pretty mediocre numbers.

There were remarkably few injuries that year on the Browns IIRC, and the threat of J. Lewis gained Edwards a lot of single coverage which allowed DA to play to his strength of being able to chuck it deep. Yet he still posted a low completion % and threw 19 INTs to go with his 29 TDs. That roughly 3:2 ratio is NOT GOOD.

Turnovers are the most important thing in football, and DA gave the football away like it was on fire.

What difference does it make why DA played well through 3/4 of that season? The fact is he did.

But the question is why. I happen to believe that good QB play depends on the whole gestalt working together.

It's illogical to think that DA was not very good, great, then not very good again.

QBs don't elevate their skills to the highest level, then just lose them. He just was in the perfect situation for a season, and still couldn't beat the suck ass Bengals when the game was on the line.

[e0y2e3]

No dumbfuck – we played bottom dwellers for the majority of that season and DA’s performance started out as high as it ever was and began to slope downward almost quickly.

It certainly didn’t take a full season. Just look at the second time the Bengals ran into him.

And good for you. Nothing better than fucks who define themselves by making the OHSAA playoffs as bitch ass high school coordinators. What’s next, gonna tell the board how big your dick is? Or relive your college wars on the boards yet again?

Your take, as usual sucks and you are spinning to try and save face. It’s almost Treeian.

[hiko]

Love the smell of vitriol in the mornin'.

[pup]

"Here is the problem with that. Derek Anderson, for a majority of that season was not mediocre or poor."

Chicken or the Egg man. I say that Derek Anderson did not look mediocre or poor was because of the team around him. Your take means that we have to buy that somehow DA elevated his play for roughly 12 games that year when he was unable to repeat that at any other time in his career.

I am pretty comfortable saying that DA value as a NFL QB is somewhere between poor to mediocre based on the sample size of his entire career. Even in his Pro Bowl alternate season he posted pretty mediocre numbers.

There were remarkably few injuries that year on the Browns IIRC, and the threat of J. Lewis gained Edwards a lot of single coverage which allowed DA to play to his strength of being able to chuck it deep. Yet he still posted a low completion % and threw 19 INTs to go with his 29 TDs. That roughly 3:2 ratio is NOT GOOD.

Turnovers are the most important thing in football, and DA gave the football away like it was on fire.

What difference does it make why DA played well through 3/4 of that season? The fact is he did.

But the question is why. I happen to believe that good QB play depends on the whole gestalt working together.

It's illogical to think that DA was not very good, great, then not very good again.

QBs don't elevate their skills to the highest level, then just lose them. He just was in the perfect situation for a season, and still couldn't beat the suck ass Bengals when the game was on the line.

And I believe good QB play makes the rest of the shit work.

Ever play baseball? Know the kid that couldn't hit a curveball if he knew it was coming? Remember how good he was until peeps figured that out? Then how bad he was? Same player.

He couldn't beat those Bengals because there were 70 MPH winds to eliminate any shot at a deep ball being completed. Which meant the one thing he could not do became the only thing that could be done. And it pretty much settled the debate. If he cannot duck and chuck, he can't play.

[RedDawg]

Sorry, been busy. Good stuff Pup.

I think its important to realize that good QB play is partly the QB's skills and performance, but also partly dependent on the pieces and org around him. It's a combination of the two. Very tough to have one without the other. No?

The curveball analogy is pretty good. To extend it to this discussion, imagine that a pitcher knows a kid struggles with the curve so he feeds him steady diet of it. He gets the kid to strike out twice, but the third time he manages a weak ground ball to third.

Unfortunately the third basemen is too slow and the runner beats the throw. Now that kid that struggles against a curve is standing on first with a .333 BA. Next kid hits a triple and the only run of the game is scored, with that pitcher taking the loss, because his team has no offense and his two-hitter wasn't good enough.

Upgrading a "maybe good" QB to a "maybe great" QB is wonderful if you have the rest of the pieces to justify the move. When the rest of your team blows its not wise for us to take a QB at #6 unless the org is purely making the move for the long term and can accept short term failure.

[SoulDawg74]

Sorry, been busy. Good stuff Pup.

I think its important to realize that good QB play is partly the QB's skills and performance, but also partly dependent on the pieces and org around him. It's a combination of the two. Very tough to have one without the other. No?

The curveball analogy is pretty good. To extend it to this discussion, imagine that a pitcher knows a kid struggles with the curve so he feeds him steady diet of it. He gets the kid to strike out twice, but the third time he manages a weak ground ball to third.

Unfortunately the third basemen is too slow and the runner beats the throw. Now that kid that struggles against a curve is standing on first with a .333 BA. Next kid hits a triple and the only run of the game is scored, with that pitcher taking the loss, because his team has no offense and his two-hitter wasn't good enough.

Upgrading a "maybe good" QB to a "maybe great" QB is wonderful if you have the rest of the pieces to justify the move. When the rest of your team blows its not wise for us to take a QB at #6 unless the org is purely making the move for the long term and can accept short term failure.

SD:

So if your current team sucks so bad your drafting in the top of the draft because you suck , don't bother upgrading the QB position with superior talent , because you suck.

Check .

That was simply outstanding logic what were we doing before you could grace our paths with such astute deep thinking .

On a scale from one to ten , I give it a minus 11 .

Thank you can I have another


SoulDawg

[pup]

Red - It is my belief (check the sig line) that the position of quarterback in the NFL is the single most important position in any team sport. And there are only two options. You have a great one, or you need to find a great one.

If Colt is great, move along.
If he is not, you should be looking for one. Now, if you do not think anyone in this draft has the potential to be great, pick a different position. I have no problem with that. But if you think someone has the potential to be great, and you think you have the skills and your coaching staff has the skills to bring that greatness out of him, you have to take that player.

I believe, more than any other position in team sports, a great QB can make up for some(but not all) inadequacies of the rest of the roster. I believe Tom Brady could play for Arizona in 2010 and win 13 games. And I believe the Pats with Derek Anderson win 5. And you can make that case with the haves and the have nots throughout the league.

So, while building a "team" is admirable, the surest route to respectability is through the QB position.

[RedDawg]

Soul, with all due respect you may not be open-minded enough to discuss this rationally.

Here's why:

You are operating on the premise that McCoy doesn't have "IT." The entire Browns FO disagrees with you, but I respect the fact that you might be right. IF, you are right - then it absolutely makes sense to take Newton at #6 and I would whole-heartedly agree with you. I love the idea of having a revolutionary figure at QB for the Browns.

However, the fact remains that the Browns FO thinks that McCoy "appears" to have enough in the tool box to get the job done. That's their assessment, and they are operating accordingly.

Whether or not to seriously consider taking Cam completely hinges on the dice roll of the development of McCoy.

IMO, both stances are valid depending on how you feel about McCoy. Even you have to concede that the Browns FO might be right and that he can be a winning QB in the NFL, and only hindsight and a whole lot of other variables will determine which stance was correct.

If you can't admit that fact - then you are wearing Cam Newton blinders and really aren't worth threading with, childish insults or not.

[RedDawg]

Red - It is my belief (check the sig line) that the position of quarterback in the NFL is the single most important position in any team sport. And there are only two options. You have a great one, or you need to find a great one.

If Colt is great, move along.
If he is not, you should be looking for one. Now, if you do not think anyone in this draft has the potential to be great, pick a different position. I have no problem with that. But if you think someone has the potential to be great, and you think you have the skills and your coaching staff has the skills to bring that greatness out of him, you have to take that player.

I believe, more than any other position in team sports, a great QB can make up for some(but not all) inadequacies of the rest of the roster. I believe Tom Brady could play for Arizona in 2010 and win 13 games. And I believe the Pats with Derek Anderson win 5. And you can make that case with the haves and the have nots throughout the league.

So, while building a "team" is admirable, the surest route to respectability is through the QB position.

I agree with the spirit of everything you say. The fact that the 2007 Browns didn't have enough around DA to win a game against a bad team when it was windy speaks volumes for my take.

The fact is, both Colt and Cam are question marks. Neither is a sure thing, and we already have Colt.

There are other positions where we are SURE we don't have a good NFL player, and the DL is the most glaring.

If you KNOW you don't have a good QB, you take one when you get a chance because it is the most important position in team sports. If you aren't sure, then its a crapshoot entailing a lot of risk for a already bad franchise.

Hey, if Lerner/Holmgren give Shurmur 3 years to develop a .500 team, then maybe taking Cam or Gabbert isn't too bad an idea.

[SoulDawg74]

Soul, with all due respect you may not be open-minded enough to discuss this rationally.

Here's why:

You are operating on the premise that McCoy doesn't have "IT." The entire Browns FO disagrees with you, but I respect the fact that you might be right. IF, you are right - then it absolutely makes sense to take Newton at #6 and I would whole-heartedly agree with you. I love the idea of having a revolutionary figure at QB for the Browns.

However, the fact remains that the Browns FO thinks that McCoy "appears" to have enough in the tool box to get the job done. That's their assessment, and they are operating accordingly.

Whether or not to seriously consider taking Cam completely hinges on the dice roll of the development of McCoy.

IMO, both stances are valid depending on how you feel about McCoy. Even you have to concede that the Browns FO might be right and that he can be a winning QB in the NFL, and only hindsight and a whole lot of other variables will determine which stance was correct.

If you can't admit that fact - then you are wearing Cam Newton blinders and really aren't worth threading with, childish insults or not.

SD:

Newton may or may not be the answer , but I've maintained all along the joint sing along
where everybody being in luv with Colt was smoke .

Teams don't bypass 1st round QB talent for third round injury prone small framed guys with weak arms unless they come in and go Joe Montanna Tom Brady on them .

Otherwise the Browns are scrambling like muthas to upgrade that position without revealing their intentions , or causing a tiff with McCoy in case they miss.

and

If you think we'll have the option to pick Newton or trade him at 6 to Washington you're just one of many suckas just playing with yourself .

Kid will never make it past Buffalo , because Galley has no illusions about Fitzpatrick as the Browns fans have fantasized and have wet dreams about McCoy.


SoulDawg

[Gradysmanldy]

Ever play baseball? Know the kid that couldn't hit a curveball if he knew it was coming? Remember how good he was until peeps figured that out? Then how bad he was? Same player.

He couldn't beat those Bengals because there were 70 MPH winds to eliminate any shot at a deep ball being completed. Which meant the one thing he could not do became the only thing that could be done. And it pretty much settled the debate. If he cannot duck and chuck, he can't play.

I can't decide if you're referencing:


or



but either way i'm with it and totally

[Fire Marshall Bill]

Ever play baseball? Know the kid that couldn't hit a curveball if he knew it was coming? Remember how good he was until peeps figured that out? Then how bad he was? Same player.

He couldn't beat those Bengals because there were 70 MPH winds to eliminate any shot at a deep ball being completed. Which meant the one thing he could not do became the only thing that could be done. And it pretty much settled the debate. If he cannot duck and chuck, he can't play.

I can't decide if you're referencing:


or



but either way i'm with it and totally

Ya know, speaking of hitting curve balls in a NFL QB debate, Matt Williams was sent back to Triple A IIRC 3 times because he couldn't hit a curve ball...look how that turned out