Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

[jb]

It is certainly the fault of state governments in some aspects. Should have never agreed to the terms of the rules, the issue is the people that screwed the pooch had their time in office and are long gone.

Senators and Congressmen get a similar benny package, why aren't they shelling out more money? And the ten percent works because there are so many people that pay into the system. You want 10% to work for you, find a few hundred thousand of your closest friends and pool your money.

I'm serious, privatize the entire thing. I know I'd get more money money out of that deal. Can't afford 10 grand to send your kid to 3rd grade, fuck you, work harder. And if you think you can do it for less, by all means go ahead.

Same for the police and firemen. Pay them when you use them. In fact, there are roads I never drive on. I will pay only for the roads I use. Set up toll booths at every intersection. And I can drive my own garbage to the dump, or I will burn it in my back yard. Actually, in your back yard because if you come over and complain, I'll beat your ass. Then when you call the police, you have to pay them before they do anything about it.

Don't forget the use of gov't backed student loans, EW.

Bring up the student loans.

[Ziner]

what are you clapping at

index.php?f=9&t=18921&rb_v=viewtopic

Now why are emergency services pay-to-play in the first place in a civilized society?

I guess you centrists forget your positions

[Fire Marshall Bill]

In any event, 70K wouldn't be bad for part time work, eh?...esp if you have time to sell tomatos and corn for cash

Really easy to make a pipe from a corn cob. A bong would be a challenge. But no wou know what is really being sold from that fruit stand, eh?

Now you're just making yourself look stupid because of my bluntness

The only difference between me, herm and a couple others on this is that my outrage is a decade or 2 older

One doesn't become "gumpier" when one gets older

One just has less patience with ignorance and quits 'playing the game' for the sake of playing the game....

At some point you too will resort to 'go for the throat' when the puck gets dropped

[comish]

You aren't going nuts, Ziner, I posted on the fly, thought it over, and then retracted....I can own up

I am NOT bitching about my job, I enjoy what I do, I'm complaining about what might happen to my job...and yes, more importantly, what my compensation will be to perform it under SB-5.

I don't know how Toledo does things, but in my district the actual board members DO NOT negotiate, they approve of the final result and give recommnendations, but the actual negotiating is done between admin and the union team. Teachers in most districts have been taking freezes or reductions over the last few years in addition to raises in what they pay for health. How is CB not working again?

You are right, Herm, my last post was a bit self-righteous I guess. I'm very frustrated. I feel like I provide an excellent service for my consumers (Johnny Tax Payer) and feel they, and my government, are now turning their backs on me as if I have done nothing for the last several years. And I'm in the MIDDLE of my career which might be the worst possible place to be if SB-5 becomes a law.

Have you guys actually read it? Do you know all of what it entails? For many of us it will automatically triple our health care cost, be even harder on our pension plans (ZERO CONTRIBUTION BY EMPLOYER), wipe out our salary schedules, and use the dreaded merit pay system for advancement (see like page 3 of this thread for my arguments there) In addition to all of that, our way of negotiating in the future will be reduced to nothing short of a Kangaroo Court. This isn't a cut to my wallet...this is potentially an evisceration.

SB-5 is a slap in the face to all of us in the public sector. I agree that some reform is necessary, but this Bill is EXTREMELY AGRESSIVE. Will I go get a different job if under this Bill I can no longer provide for the family adequetly? I might have to, I don't want to...who would, but I might have to. The loser in that situation, other than admittedly my poor pocket, is the kids who enjoy having me around...if that is self righteous too....then so be it. I think I'm pretty gosh darn good at what I do.

Look, we can have all the fun and games on this topic we want. Lets call SB-5 and its twin in Wisconsin what it is...a Republican power grab. They made ZERO EFFORT to work with the unions or democrats to write or ammend this Bill. They can't even get THEIR OWN PEOPLE COMPLETELY ON BOARD (In Ohio). Once passed the privitization of all public systems will be next. You won't have to wait long, and then God help us all.

Should we start a different thread at this point?

[Ziner]

Have you guys actually read it? Do you know all of what it entails? For many of us it will automatically triple our health care cost, be even harder on our pension plans (ZERO CONTRIBUTION BY EMPLOYER), wipe out our salary schedules, and use the dreaded merit pay system for advancement (see like page 3 of this thread for my arguments there) In addition to all of that, our way of negotiating in the future will be reduced to nothing short of a Kangaroo Court. This isn't a cut to my wallet...this is potentially an evisceration.

Zero contribution by employer? How are they going to cover that shortfall? See the problem is you don't get much compassion because everyone has gone through this. Pay freezes, higher health care costs, etc. Your "401K" took a nose dive, now the guaranteed benefits still need to be paid, you guys have risk free pension plans because we back you up. Who was there to bail out the people who were ready to retire in 2008 based off their own investments that took a dive? The public absorbs that risk for you so don't tell me it is zero contribution. If you are contributing 20% I might believe you, but pensions are not sustainable with the 10% number that I have heard.

Look, we can have all the fun and games on this topic we want. Lets call SB-5 and its twin in Wisconsin what it is...a Republican power grab. They made ZERO EFFORT to work with the unions or democrats to write or ammend this Bill. They can't even get THEIR OWN PEOPLE COMPLETELY ON BOARD (In Ohio). Once passed the privitization of all public systems will be next. You won't have to wait long, and then God help us all.

Should we start a different thread at this point?

Slippery slope arguments are not applicable, Democrats banned them during the health care debate.

It is too bad they didn't try to get them on board, but Mitch Daniels unilaterally did this in Indiana and they are doing just fine. People always say politicians have no stones to do what is needed. Time will tell if this is a key tough step that needs to be made by politicians who go against popular opinion. However you can draw a line right back to popular opinion for most of our deficits (federal, state and local). Popular opinion isn't always what is best.


I like teachers, I have a lot of friends who are teachers, I had plenty of good ones, but to pretend as if your way of life is being threatened is just over the top. There are plenty of states that do not have public employee collective bargaining, they arent falling off a cliff. Shit, Erie apparently moved to one for a job from what it seems, I believe he said something along the lines of not wanting to teach in Ohio because of the way they are funded. EOD schools aren't going away nor are they going to be privatized.

[FUDU]

This is all going down exactly as planned and expected, tax payers and voters divided against each other. Would be funny if it wasn't sad and concerning.

As much as part of me is totally for this much of this bill another part of me wants this to get rejected by voters come November.

[Orenthal]

Too funny, they have to contribute 5%. What % do they contribute towards their healthcare premium. I need another laugh.

So far we have them making a middle to upper middle class wage and paying probably the smallest % imaginable for their retirement and healthcare.

Yeah its about the voters, that is why people go after the unions. Their structure has created an extremely powerful, minority voting block, that has made unsustainable promises. This is like 30 years too late.

[Orenthal]

This is all going down exactly as planned and expected, tax payers and voters divided against each other. Would be funny if it wasn't sad and concerning.

As much as part of me is totally for this much of this bill another part of me wants this to get rejected by voters come November.

Get a grip. This was voted FOR in November.

This "division" is nothing.

[hermanfontenot]

Get a grip. This was voted FOR in November.

This "division" is nothing.

Exactly. The people have spoken. This is simply obstructionism.

I love my fiancee, but God, her union sucks. And she's talking about how they're going to bust her down from 60K to 19K a year. Give me a break.

[comish]

Sigh

That's what I mean Herman, you haven't read the Bill. The original SB-5 DID have a pay scale that had some pretty atrocious starting salaries. You can talk your fiance off the ledge though and let her know that they have pulled it...FOR NOW

I disagree, Orenthal, the people DID NOT altogether speak in November. Many of the Repubs pushing this Bill kept it under the radar and were actually endorsed BY UNIONS. Exit polls have shown that 35% or so of union households actually voted FOR some of these folks. Those votes/endorsements are going to disappear faster than a case of X-Mas Ale in December now.

The people will be speaking again THIS November...Republicans who support this horrifying legislation if they are up, will be toast...and the Bill? Well for now it is clipping along at a brisk 30 something percent approval rating.

[FUDU]

My bad OJ I forgot to clarify my post was in regards to OH as well with the voting comment. Ifth ey can get an appeal to get it on the ballot in November IMO it will fail.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

If this about saving money, why are worthless faggots like Wisco's gov still drawing paychecks?

Shouldn't they sacrafice first and most? Since they don't do anything to earn the moeny or bennies or they get on the taxpeyer's dime.

He's a piece of shit and I wish him the worst.

[FUDU]

Interesting piece here :http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/mar/10/wisconsin-us-unions.

IMO it brings to light some great points but kind of persuades the reader to go off on more of a historical tangent.

Not to fully hijack this, but looking back objectively it is almost funny how much more of a democrat Reagan really was in his actions, how much closer to the middle Bill was, and how similar all these so called leaders have been from Obama to Reagan (maybe even further back).

There is a fairly obvious trend in all this, most of us live it every day, but damn if we don't allow ourselves to get conned into thinking change is always on the horizon.

[Orenthal]

Sigh

Took the rest of that outta there just to keep the quote box small. IMO, we differ on people knowing or not knowing what they were voting for. I think its pretty blind to think people did not know these types of bills would result out of a 2 YEAR TEA PARTY MOVEMENT. I mean are you serious?

Kasich was very upfront with his views months before the election. They tried to tar and feather the guy as a Wall Street fatcat. There we no surprises. He mentioned massive change. Face it, people have had enough of public sector workers making double what they make (benefits + pay).

[Orenthal]

My bad OJ I forgot to clarify my post was in regards to OH as well with the voting comment. Ifth ey can get an appeal to get it on the ballot in November IMO it will fail.

Again I highly doubt that to be the case. IMO it is time to break these unions.

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

EDIT
http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/indexp.php

^Just too funny.

[FUDU]

My bad OJ I forgot to clarify my post was in regards to OH as well with the voting comment. Ifth ey can get an appeal to get it on the ballot in November IMO it will fail.

Again I highly doubt that to be the case. IMO it is time to break these unions.

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

I agree there is an argument that they need breaking, IMO it just isn't going to happen through the will of the people, just yet.

The media can impact that outcome greatly.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

You two queens going to set up a date, or just kiss here?

[Cerebral_DownTime]

C'mon, Dooshbags, say something mean back! I'm bored and not buzzed enough yet.

Fucking Republicunts.

[FUDU]

Do you ever trip over that sickle and hammer?

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Do you ever trip over that sickle and hammer?

Oh no. I keep it up the wall, just in case.

I do bang my head on door frames alot.

[comish]

To the point that SB-5 is to aggressive.

http://thinkprogress.org/?p=148533

Again, reform is necessary...I admit it, but this too much (Some of their own party members think so). But honestly, they (repub leadership) doesn't care, because this isn't about the budget or even Collective Bargaining reform, there is an agenda...and I never considered myself a conspiracy theorist before

[Orenthal]

Force the opposition to scale back an over reach. That is Democrat 101. It is about time the Fiscal Conservatives go on offense.

[Ziner]

Have to admit there is some irony with all of this since the unions are constantly supporting those in favor of big government, represent people employed by big government, but now are worried that the government will have unchecked power over them. Government is good, fixes all problems, why complain now?





Listen, my wife got laid off from her job a few years ago. There was no arbitration, there were no union concessions, there was a pink slip. Why public employees think they are entitled to more than people who work in the private sector has me confused. They don't quite get it, they think we should be outraged for them.


Actually comish, I am interested in hearing it. Why are you entitled for more protections and bargaining power for your job, especially when you bargain against our wallets when you get increased compensation, than I am entitled on the open market?

[comish]

I don't really.

The elimination of tenure..or more specifically the use of more than just longevity to determine staffing layoffs doesn't really bother me. I'm good at my job, I have good reviews, if you need to lay people off I'm confortable with you looking at my body of work AND how long I've been there. What worries me is dropping people who make to much money, just cuz....well they make to much money.

If you get laid off after 15 years or so on the job you have acquire experience and a skill set that might make you attractive for others. If I (or any teacher) gets laid off after 15+ years we are too expensive for anyone to hire, and therefore you have just handed me a death certificate along WITH my pink slip. (Yes I'm over dramatizing, but you get the point I'm sure)

and before I snap a trap on myself, this STILL doesn't make me comfortable with erasing pay scales and going to merit. Merit is a VERY VERY slippery slope in the world of education.

[Ziner]

If you get laid off after 15 years or so on the job you have acquire experience and a skill set that might make you attractive for others. If I (or any teacher) gets laid off after 15+ years we are too expensive for anyone to hire, and therefore you have just handed me a death certificate along WITH my pink slip. (Yes I'm over dramatizing, but you get the point I'm sure)

This is a fair point and accept this.

There is no fantastic counterpoint that I have to combat that. Nothing is perfect.

[comish]

True dat, nothings perfect. I have said multiple times in this thread that I believe we need some reform.

Through comments/discussions here and elsewhere I am getting a clearer picture of how some people feel. I have over the years had to argue with my own members who don't realize how good they have it. We recently ratified a new contract and I had members whining that they didn't get a bigger raise

As stated, IMO, SB-5 is too big of a swing being taken by King Kasich and the Republicans. If what they truly want is reform and to ease the leaking budget, scale it back a bit. They can still accomplish both goals without trying for the knock out.

Pushing it through and keeping it as is could come back to haunt them in future elections, and if this gets zapped by the citizen veto it might be all for nothing.

[Ziner]

Pushing it through and keeping it as is could come back to haunt them in future elections, and if this gets zapped by the citizen veto it might be all for nothing.

That is good though. Give it 3 years, see how it is working, if it falls on its face then they can get booted out of office. Elections should matter, seems like in Washington they don't. Perhaps on a state level they still can. Bold steps need taken, time will tell if this is the correct one.

[comish]

the rub is though that some of the House seats will be up next November from what I understand. THOSE PEEPS have to be very wary of how they vote on what is (according to polling) an unpopular Bill.

[Ziner]

the rub is though that some of the House seats will be up next November from what I understand. THOSE PEEPS have to be very wary of how they vote on what is (according to polling) an unpopular Bill.

You know there is an interesting debate in this statement. Should they be? Should politicians always go with popular opinion? Or should they do what they think is right. There is a delicate balance there that is very interesting IMO.

[Orenthal]

Obama didn't make a single mention of Wisconsin in his press conference today, and not a single question was asked by the press corps. Odd.

(Somthing that front burner would normally be asked no matter why the presser was called.)

[jb]

In any event, 70K wouldn't be bad for part time work, eh?...esp if you have time to sell tomatos and corn for cash

Really easy to make a pipe from a corn cob. A bong would be a challenge. But no wou know what is really being sold from that fruit stand, eh?

Now you're just making yourself look stupid because of my bluntness

The only difference between me, herm and a couple others on this is that my outrage is a decade or 2 older

One doesn't become "gumpier" when one gets older

One just has less patience with ignorance and quits 'playing the game' for the sake of playing the game....

At some point you too will resort to 'go for the throat' when the puck gets dropped

Color me completely baffled.

Unless you take extreme umbridge at the assertion that a corncob can not be easily made to hold water.

[jb]

what are you clapping at

index.php?f=9&t=18921&rb_v=viewtopic

Now why are emergency services pay-to-play in the first place in a civilized society?

I guess you centrists forget your positions

Meh. I liked EW's style of attack on that last one, so this is just a cheap shot from the cheaper seats. Thought I'd toss out an oldie but goodie, like a battery chuck into the squared circle.

But there is a grain of truth. Be a good thread to run out all the epic failures and corruption of privitization over the past 30 years. When you live in the center position, like myself, you understand both extremes when you see them. Government is neitehr the solution nor the casue of all problems. It merely has an appropriate role.

Carry on.

[Ziner]

Be a good thread to run out all the epic failures and corruption of privitization over the past 30 years. When you live in the center position, like myself, you understand both extremes when you see them. Government is neitehr the solution nor the casue of all problems. It merely has an appropriate role.

Carry on.

Start one, because frankly I am not sure what you are referring to.

Look JB is in the center

JB

[jb]

How does Moore not just expload ? Dang man, look at that photo.

I do love me some Maher though. probably the closest pndit to me as far as having a smart ass view of the world. By far the best political talking heads show on TV.

If you can't laugh at "new rules", you really are Michelle bachman. Mostly becasu ethe humor goes over ur head.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

How does Moore not just expload ? Dang man, look at that photo.

I do love me some Maher though. probably the closest pndit to me as far as having a smart ass view of the world. By far the best political talking heads show on TV.

If you can't laugh at "new rules", you really are Michelle bachman. Mostly becasu ethe humor goes over ur head.

Agreed.

Michelle Bachman is walking talking proof on why we need to improve our education system in the US. Otherwise kids might grow up to be a brainless dingbat spouting absolute nonsense on National TV. The people who vote for her must be the dumbest motherfuckers on the planet.

Her and Palin are like the Dumbass Wonder Twins.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

what are you clapping at

index.php?f=9&t=18921&rb_v=viewtopic

Now why are emergency services pay-to-play in the first place in a civilized society?

I guess you centrists forget your positions

Meh. I liked EW's style of attack on that last one, so this is just a cheap shot from the cheaper seats. Thought I'd toss out an oldie but goodie, like a battery chuck into the squared circle.

But there is a grain of truth. Be a good thread to run out all the epic failures and corruption of privitization over the past 30 years. When you live in the center position, like myself, you understand both extremes when you see them. Government is neitehr the solution nor the casue of all problems. It merely has an appropriate role.

Carry on.

I live in the center, too...in the center of my own little world...where all politicians are scum

So, like yourself, in spite of what I write here on occasion, in the reality portion of my day, most of this shit is just that....shit...shit that either doesn't affect me or does and I have no control over it

I call it adapting...

....and when unions and teachers start worrying about the self emoployed like myself and our 15% contribution to SS and paying our own healthcare, maybe I'll start giving a rats ass about them and their constant whining

...and a pre-emptive yeah yeah I'd cut some from Defense

[comish]

I'll pay my 15% when I start getting paid a salary the same as a private sector employee with same level/amount of education that I have

[FUDU]

I'll pay my 15% when I start getting paid a salary the same as a private sector employee after all I can do any of your jobs but none of you can do mine!

[comish]

I'll pay my 15% when I start getting paid a salary the same as a private sector employee after all I can any of your jobs but none of you can do mine!

Now, now...that's not what I said

[FUDU]

You did not, however many people that have the same feeling as you do on this pretty much come across that way. Makes it hard to take them serious, IMO they give others like you, who seem somewhat level headed, a bad name.

[comish]

Well I certainly do NOT make those assumptions, but I also feel that what I do is harder than what some of you think.

Sort of brings me to another point, and a possible unintented consequence of financially crippling the public workforce.

I know what I can and can't do, the things I need help with I go and purchase those services. See unlike what some out there think, rather than sit in my room and count my stacks of high society, I'm out there spending it right back to the tax payers who are helping keep me employed.

If I'm not donking it off at a table somewhere, I'm purchasing goods and services from all the private sector businesses around me. You give, I give right back. Certainly not a complete give back, but I do my share to keep the economy running..as do most of the rest of the public workers.

Trust me, no hoarding here.....my bank account and I haven't been on speaking terms since the 90's.

[FUDU]

While a fair point I would only answer with I highly doubt there is a difference (of any statistical significance) that Joe Public gives back any more to the economy than Joe Private. We all have our abilities and talents to which we either DIY it or sub the job out.

To the point of hoarding money, while there is nothing wrong with it on the individual level if hoarding takes place on a the macro then yeah the economy can suffer, IIRC we talked about this in here in the past 6 months...is there such a thing as collectively saving to much money?

[Fire Marshall Bill]

I'll pay my 15% when I start getting paid a salary the same as a private sector employee with same level/amount of education that I have

Thats my favorite. Thinking you're a corporate excec

Put in as many hrs as that guy and you mite get some respect. Tioll then I read you as just another letch in the system looking to bleed it


...and your education doesn't mean shit if you were out there on your own putting up you own capital and no one to blame but yourself if you fail and it certainly doesn't mean shit to me

...and blame is all you got, so go drive a school bus

I love that line...the "I'm over educated" one.....cuz thats what you're saying. BTW, Einstien mocks you and that line of thought...but you're smart....you knew that, right?

Heard that from a teachers union Prez around here a number of yrs ago when she was on TV complaining about how much her mechanic charged and the fact she had "twice the education" he had...to which I sneeringly responded via my mental telepathy powers...

"If you're so smart fix you're own damn car, bitch!"

I now say it to you...

The only unions worth a rats ass are the building trades...after them you can all go suck eggs and suffer the ridicule heaped upon your lazy asses

[motherscratcher]

Are you kidding me FMB? What the hell makes the trade unions any better?

I know people in some of those. You wouldn't believe some of the shit they tell me as far as work they can refuse to do and standing around doing nothing time just because they are union jobs.

It's like the joke about the pyramids. The plan was for a big square building, but it was a union job. Every shift did a little bit less until the last shift threw a rock on top and headed to the bar.

[Ziner]

Are you kidding me FMB? What the hell makes the trade unions any better?

I know people in some of those. You wouldn't believe some of the shit they tell me as far as work they can refuse to do and standing around doing nothing time just because they are union jobs.

It's like the joke about the pyramids. The plan was for a big square building, but it was a union job. Every shift did a little bit less until the last shift threw a rock on top and headed to the bar.

Gotta second that. I did some work up in Michigan that technically was "union" construction work. Of course I appreciated getting their wages plus benefits paid in cash when doing it. However, I have never seen a collectively lazier group than those union guys. If they spent half as much time trying to figure out if we were union as they did actually working they might be worthy of their inflated wages.

Once they found out we weren't union they were all sorts of pissed and bitched us out up and down. Imagine how pissed they would have been if we let them know that the reason we got clearance to work on the site was that the owner of my company told us to drop off a special envelope of cash for their union boss so we could work there.

Nice union protection right there.

[Orenthal]

The best part is when the floor sweepers, local 311 in Cleveland I think, get pissed that you clean up after yourself. If every trade just didn't throw their shit on the ground, that entire cost would be eliminated. Also the 9:30, 12:00, and 2:00 clear out breaks are classic. They can immediately see your out of place.

What you learn as a project manager for an open shop makes you pretty negative about all unions. 'specially when they have picketed you jobs, or drilled holes in your paint buckets, or salted your company.

FUCK ALL UNIONS.

[motherscratcher]

Wait. Just hold on a minute.

Are you telling me that there's a union for floor sweepers?

[Cerebral_DownTime]

God....... Republicans really are faggots.

[Orenthal]

It's the 310 my bad.

Our members tend numerous trades in the construction industry including carpenters, cement masons, bricklayers, plasterers, floor layers, operating engineers and plumbers.

That's a funny word to use... Tend. Reminds me of a movie with a guy that likes the rabbits. They share the same level of intelligence.

http://www.local310.com/

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Fuck the Free Masons, assholes letting space aliens rule the world and start commie unions.

Fuck that noise.