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Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:49 pm

mistero wrote:Just got back from the 5th thru 12th grade choir concert. I would of rather gone yachting on the coast of Somalia....anyways.

I graduated HS 25 years ago. According to the choir program, the guy that was the high school principal when I was in 9th grade is now the Assistant Superintendent for Business Services. The guy who was the principal when I was in 10th thru 12 is now the Director or Curriculum and Instruction. The Home Ec teacher is now the HS principal. With 30 plus years in the school system each, how much jack do you think those cats are pulling down? 100K plus? Ultimate example of dum dums just hanging around to get paid on my property taxes.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

WORD Dat...or whatever the new slang may be

Its called gorging at the public trough...but we all know they're all about "The Children", eh?

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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:19 am

Yeah, EW. If that Kasich has his way, that gravy train you've been ridin' is coming to a end, motherfucker. You might have to sell one of your BMWs.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:55 am

The Beamers go first, but I'm going to hold onto the beachfront property.

Not like those individuals acquired advanced degrees along with their 20+ years of experience. So yeah Mistero, 100K sounds right. I would hope anyone with a Masters+ and over 2 decades of service are in that range.

For anyone who wants a cushy Principal job, I'd really encourage them to go to college and get one. They are really pie-in-the-sky easy.

And for anyone who thinks education spending is out of control, I interviewed our CFO yesterday. Our division's budget is about 183 million, down from 215 million a few years ago. The numbers they are looking at this year will place us below the 2006 budget. But of course everything was more expensive in 2006...
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:10 am

The AD of the Erie School District lives within a 3 iron of my office/warehouse...

He is exactly what mistero is talking about

2 Escaldes in the driveway...one brand new and jet black

One is 3 yrs old, cream colored and has a snowplow on front so he can do his own drive vs hiring out for $300 a yr

You want to make 100K pick a different career cuz we all know teachers are in it "For the Children" and because they love what they do...the money is secondary... :lmfao:
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:52 am

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:The AD of the Erie School District lives within a 3 iron of my office/warehouse...

He is exactly what mistero is talking about

2 Escaldes in the driveway...one brand new and jet black

One is 3 yrs old, cream colored and has a snowplow on front so he can do his own drive vs hiring out for $300 a yr

You want to make 100K pick a different career cuz we all know teachers are in it "For the Children" and because they love what they do...the money is secondary... :lmfao:


What are you saying FMB? If teachers don't take a vow of poverty, they are only in it money and don't care about children or education?

Take what you do. From what I can gather a lot of patio work. And judging by your comments you are good at what you do and you enjoy it. Why don't you do a shitty job and make more money by fucking people over with patios that are going to crack and heave after a few years but are less labor intensive and time consuming? It's because you give a shit about what you do, and you take pride in what you do. But you wouldn't do it for free, and I'm sure you want to make the most money you can, just like everyone else on earth.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:04 am

mother I think FMB is basically calling out those who say they're in it for some reason X (which has nothing to do with money) but yet are kicking and screaming about money.

This is a tough issue for me b/c I know so many people that are city/state workers, while I want to see them prosper I also support some of the ideas in Ohio's bill. However I cannot say that to them, at least without expecting some disappointment from them. I know a lot of Cleveland Fire/Police, and to a man most of them will say they took the job for the reason of serving and protecting. Well if that is truly the case wouldn't they be wiling to concede most of this stuff without the kicking and screaming they doing, you know b/c they are in it for that good heart felt reason?

...and hey I'm not one to say another person doesn't have the right to fight for their own wages/benefits.

Like I said from day one, this pits us against each other.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby mistero » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:45 pm

The point I was trying to make is that a small school district shouldn't require a fat layer of administrative types. I would love to see how much money is spent on 4 or 5 suits compared to 30 or 40 teachers.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby jb » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:53 pm

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:The AD of the Erie School District lives within a 3 iron of my office/warehouse...

He is exactly what mistero is talking about

2 Escaldes in the driveway...one brand new and jet black

One is 3 yrs old, cream colored and has a snowplow on front so he can do his own drive vs hiring out for $300 a yr

You want to make 100K pick a different career cuz we all know teachers are in it "For the Children" and because they love what they do...the money is secondary... :lmfao:



How do you know he doesn't make $ 70K and has all that from dealing blow?
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:12 pm

mistero wrote:The point I was trying to make is that a small school district shouldn't require a fat layer of administrative types. I would love to see how much money is spent on 4 or 5 suits compared to 30 or 40 teachers.


Check page 3 of this thread, there is very little fat in a school budget. I linked the numbers, less than 3% of a school division is "management" types.

Of course upper management makes more than the workers. That's not unique to education.

Of course many of the upper management positions are held by former teachers. Why is that viewed in a negative connotation? One of the good things about working in public education is upward mobility. Those jobs all require more course work and numerous years of experience. How many companies have management that started out as an entry-level employees?

These are some of the worst takes I've heard.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby mistero » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:45 pm

That's great if they actually serve a function. It sounds like we have 5 guys with varios titles to do the job of superintendant of schools. Sounds like early retirement with a nice title and monthly check.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:15 pm

jb wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:The AD of the Erie School District lives within a 3 iron of my office/warehouse...

He is exactly what mistero is talking about

2 Escaldes in the driveway...one brand new and jet black

One is 3 yrs old, cream colored and has a snowplow on front so he can do his own drive vs hiring out for $300 a yr

You want to make 100K pick a different career cuz we all know teachers are in it "For the Children" and because they love what they do...the money is secondary... :lmfao:


How do you know he doesn't make $ 70K and has all that from dealing blow?


LOL.....he said 30K for an Escalade ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Cuz he still has the time during the year to be a fruit and vegetable farmer with 3 roadside stands

In any event, 70K wouldn't be bad for part time work, eh?...esp if you have time to sell tomatos and corn for cash
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:21 pm

More numbers:
http://www.pewcenteronthestates.org/rep ... x?id=56695

$1 trillion. That’s the gap at the end of fiscal year 2008 between the $2.35 trillion states had set aside to pay for employees’ retirement benefits and the $3.35 trillion price tag of those promises.


To a significant degree, the $1 trillion reflects states’ own policy choices and lack of discipline:
• failing to make annual payments for pension systems at the levels recommended by their own actuaries;
• expanding benefits and offering cost-of-living increases without fully considering their long-term price tag or determining how to pay for them; and
• providing retiree health care without adequately funding it.


Another huge document we covered briefly in class tonight, but good info if you're really interested. I would also add that the Golden Parachute (state pays retirement, ages and years of service being reduced) was passed every time by the VA General Assembly. VA is a right to work state, so the union didn't strike to get these benefits. It's similar in many other states.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby mistero » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:05 pm

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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:24 pm

ALRIGHT! WOOOOOHOOOO! THEY STRIPPED AMERICANS OF THEIR BARGAINING RIGHTS! YAY!!!!!!! USA USA USA USA!
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:29 pm

And I see you there, Ziner. Watching, reading, judging, fuck you.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:33 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:ALRIGHT! WOOOOOHOOOO! THEY STRIPPED AMERICANS OF THEIR BARGAINING RIGHTS! YAY!!!!!!! USA USA USA USA!


I am sure they are going to be fine. They now get to enter the real world. When my company had to tighten their belts so did we. Their employer has to tighten their belt and they have to follow suit. They are collectively throwing the worlds biggest pity party. They pretend as if they are grossly underpaid when it comes to other people... now they have the same collective bargaining rights that the people who make more than they do.


I still don't get this, why is it the end of the world that they have no collective bargaining rights (for salary, from what I understand they maintain the rest of it unless they changed that). I know a ton of people who work for evil corporations that are doing just fine with no collective bargaining. Over-dramatization.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:35 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:And I see you there, Ziner. Watching, reading, judging, fuck you.


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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:36 pm

Ziner wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:ALRIGHT! WOOOOOHOOOO! THEY STRIPPED AMERICANS OF THEIR BARGAINING RIGHTS! YAY!!!!!!! USA USA USA USA!


I am sure they are going to be fine. They now get to enter the real world. When my company had to tighten their belts so did we. Their employer has to tighten their belt and they have to follow suit. They are collectively throwing the worlds biggest pity party. They pretend as if they are grossly underpaid when it comes to other people... now they have the same collective bargaining rights that the people who make more than they do.


I still don't get this, why is it the end of the world that they have no collective bargaining rights (for salary, from what I understand they maintain the rest of it unless they changed that). I know a ton of people who work for evil corporations that are doing just fine with no collective bargaining. Over-dramatization.


I was just fucking around, being an asshole,.

What do I care?

I don't live in Wisconsin.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:40 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
Ziner wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:ALRIGHT! WOOOOOHOOOO! THEY STRIPPED AMERICANS OF THEIR BARGAINING RIGHTS! YAY!!!!!!! USA USA USA USA!


I am sure they are going to be fine. They now get to enter the real world. When my company had to tighten their belts so did we. Their employer has to tighten their belt and they have to follow suit. They are collectively throwing the worlds biggest pity party. They pretend as if they are grossly underpaid when it comes to other people... now they have the same collective bargaining rights that the people who make more than they do.


I still don't get this, why is it the end of the world that they have no collective bargaining rights (for salary, from what I understand they maintain the rest of it unless they changed that). I know a ton of people who work for evil corporations that are doing just fine with no collective bargaining. Over-dramatization.


I was just fucking around, being an asshole,.

What do I care?

I don't live in Wisconsin.


Well then fine then, I now want that post to address anyone else who bitches for real then.

Ohio RULEZZZZZ
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:16 am

And just to be clear, the lack of money in the state retirement plans is not the fault of the unions. It's the fault of the state governments for underfunding, poor planning, and borrowing against the pension systems.

Privatize the whole thing. Cops, firefighters, education, health care. Oh sweet Valhalla.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby WarAdmiral » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:15 am

I have never seen members in my local more fired up about this, and we are in a private union. I have members who I have argued politics with over the years, conceding to me, that I was right, about the Republicans wanting to destroy our right to collectively bargain. These guys are gun toting, Bible thumping conservatives, who now realize their ability to feed their families is seriously being threatened through politics.

How this shakes out in the end, is to be determined, but I know one thing, and that is during the next election cycle, we may have to expand our phone bank operations. I won't have to beg for help, but may have to turn it away or find other ways to get our message out, to utilize the man power.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Orenthal » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:39 am

^I'm not even in a union and I can still feed my family?
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:49 am

Erie Warrior wrote:And just to be clear, the lack of money in the state retirement plans is not the fault of the unions. It's the fault of the state governments for underfunding, poor planning, and borrowing against the pension systems.

Privatize the whole thing. Cops, firefighters, education, health care. Oh sweet Valhalla.


It is certainly the fault of state governments in some aspects. Should have never agreed to the terms of the rules, the issue is the people that screwed the pooch had their time in office and are long gone. And lets not dare point out that it is likely these sweetheart and above market deals were structured by democrats who were elected partly with the contributions of the unions they were at the negotiating table with. I am not saying it is solely democrats, but the line is not hard to draw. It is a circle jerk of fucking the taxpayers. Unions give money to democrats to get elected, they get elected, they then give lucrative benefits to unions which then get them re-elected.

Another thing, from what I understand generally the individual contribution rate is 10% to a pension, yet all I hear from Schultz, Rhodes and the other Lefty Rush wannabes is how these republicans want to take away THEIR money they have already paid. I will tell you what, if putting away only 10% of your income gets you the pension that public employees have then I must be the worst investor of all time. I look at what I am putting away and realize I need to either up that percentage or make more money (the ultimate plan) to have a nice cushy retirement. Yet somehow public workers get excellent pensions with only 10% contribution of a "measly" salary.

Splain that.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:50 am

Orenthal wrote:^I'm not even in a union and I can still feed my family?


My family can not eat. I can't even afford ramen. All due to my lack of collective bargaining.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby jb » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:55 am

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:In any event, 70K wouldn't be bad for part time work, eh?...esp if you have time to sell tomatos and corn for cash



Really easy to make a pipe from a corn cob. A bong would be a challenge. But no wou know what is really being sold from that fruit stand, eh?
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Orenthal » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:58 am

I find it funny that not a single opposition quote, opposition to Walker's plan, acknowledge the fact their is a shortfall in the State budget. No ALL the quotes are related to destroying the middle class or taking food out of their mouths. You're 13 fucking percent of the workforce. The fucking myopia of it all astounds me. Just be honest and say you want all your crumbs regardless of the consequences.

Oh and btw, the reason there are shortfalls is because union leaders need to bring home the bacon. They do this by figting for ever unreachable guaranteed benefits. Democrats are more then happy to get all those rank and file votes, and "let them eat cake."
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:00 am

jb wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:In any event, 70K wouldn't be bad for part time work, eh?...esp if you have time to sell tomatos and corn for cash



Really easy to make a pipe from a corn cob. A bong would be a challenge. But no wou know what is really being sold from that fruit stand, eh?



Subtitles! Subtitles, please.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Orenthal » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:01 am

^^Just to be fair, Republicans do the same crap for their "protected" classes. Just seems this latest GOP/TeaParty group is looking at things much more fiscally and alot less politically.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby WarAdmiral » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:03 am

"We must close union offices, confiscate their money and put their leaders in prison. We must reduce workers salaries and take away their right to strike.”
- Adolph Hitler, May 2, 1933
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:06 am

Orenthal wrote:^^Just to be fair, Republicans do the same crap for their "protected" classes. Just seems this latest GOP/TeaParty group is looking at things much more fiscally and alot less politically.


For sure, happens all the time. GOP isn't innocent. Never try to portray them as not. There is a clear reason why police and fire are not involved in this bill. However, just because they aren't included doesn't mean the public union benefits needed to be reigned in. More political hypocrisy, knock me over with a feather.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:07 am

WarAdmiral wrote:"We must close union offices, confiscate their money and put their leaders in prison. We must reduce workers salaries and take away their right to strike.”
- Adolph Hitler, May 2, 1933


You forgot to work in how we are all racist too.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:10 am

Ziner wrote:
WarAdmiral wrote:"We must close union offices, confiscate their money and put their leaders in prison. We must reduce workers salaries and take away their right to strike.”
- Adolph Hitler, May 2, 1933


You forgot to work in how we are all racist too.


Well........ you are, aren't you?
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:18 am

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
Ziner wrote:
WarAdmiral wrote:"We must close union offices, confiscate their money and put their leaders in prison. We must reduce workers salaries and take away their right to strike.”
- Adolph Hitler, May 2, 1933


You forgot to work in how we are all racist too.


Well........ you are, aren't you?


Clearly.


I'd prefer this quote

"We're fucking broke, and I have a 3.6 Billion dollar deficit and unlike the feds we need to balance it" - Scott Walker March, 10th 2011*

*I completely made this up
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:22 am

Ziner wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:And I see you there, Ziner. Watching, reading, judging, fuck you.


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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:25 am

WarAdmiral wrote: How this shakes out in the end, is to be determined, but I know one thing, and that is during the next election cycle, we may have to expand our phone bank operations. I won't have to beg for help, but may have to turn it away or find other ways to get our message out, to utilize the man power.


Because if there's one thing that's going to sway my vote, it's an unknown person calling me on the phone to talk about politics. Because that's not annoying at all. Especially when I finally get my son asleep for his nap and the phone wakes him up. I love that shit. Better yet, go door to door so my dog flips out for 5 minutes. :thumb up:
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:28 am

jb wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:In any event, 70K wouldn't be bad for part time work, eh?...esp if you have time to sell tomatos and corn for cash



Really easy to make a pipe from a corn cob. A bong would be a challenge. But no wou know what is really being sold from that fruit stand, eh?


I can make a bong out of anything.

Anything.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:29 am

^ awesome.

I'd love to see proof that some stranger on the phone spewing propaganda changes votes. If it does the people get it what it deserves.




http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... ns_opinion

OH NO, not collective bargaining!!!!

In 2010, Megan Sampson was named an Outstanding First Year Teacher in Wisconsin. A week later, she got a layoff notice from the Milwaukee Public Schools. Why would one of the best new teachers in the state be one of the first let go? Because her collective-bargaining contract requires staffing decisions to be made based on seniority.


DAMN IT! How dare they reward people on performance.

When Gov. Mitch Daniels repealed collective bargaining in Indiana six years ago, it helped government become more efficient and responsive. The average pay for Indiana state employees has actually increased, and high-performing employees are rewarded with pay increases or bonuses when they do something exceptional.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:30 am

motherscratcher wrote:
jb wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:In any event, 70K wouldn't be bad for part time work, eh?...esp if you have time to sell tomatos and corn for cash



Really easy to make a pipe from a corn cob. A bong would be a challenge. But no wou know what is really being sold from that fruit stand, eh?


I can make a bong out of anything.

Anything.


Dildo?

I dare you, then post a picture of you smoking it. :dingle:
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:34 am

Ziner wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:
jb wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:In any event, 70K wouldn't be bad for part time work, eh?...esp if you have time to sell tomatos and corn for cash



Really easy to make a pipe from a corn cob. A bong would be a challenge. But no wou know what is really being sold from that fruit stand, eh?


I can make a bong out of anything.

Anything.


Dildo?

I dare you, then post a picture of you smoking it. :dingle:


I can get you a dildo bong, believe me. There are ways, dude. You don't want to know about it, believe me. I can get you a dildo bong by 3'oclock this afternoon. With water based lube. Fuckin' Amateur.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:37 am

Actually you need to get it to Galloway a guy I know there loves smoking and dildos so I am sure he would love the thoughtful gift. Just throw it in his garage, the fellas in there will know what to do with it.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:52 am

Ziner wrote:It is certainly the fault of state governments in some aspects. Should have never agreed to the terms of the rules, the issue is the people that screwed the pooch had their time in office and are long gone.


Senators and Congressmen get a similar benny package, why aren't they shelling out more money? And the ten percent works because there are so many people that pay into the system. You want 10% to work for you, find a few hundred thousand of your closest friends and pool your money.

I'm serious, privatize the entire thing. I know I'd get more money money out of that deal. Can't afford 10 grand to send your kid to 3rd grade, fuck you, work harder. And if you think you can do it for less, by all means go ahead.

Same for the police and firemen. Pay them when you use them. In fact, there are roads I never drive on. I will pay only for the roads I use. Set up toll booths at every intersection. And I can drive my own garbage to the dump, or I will burn it in my back yard. Actually, in your back yard because if you come over and complain, I'll beat your ass. Then when you call the police, you have to pay them before they do anything about it.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:07 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:
Ziner wrote:It is certainly the fault of state governments in some aspects. Should have never agreed to the terms of the rules, the issue is the people that screwed the pooch had their time in office and are long gone.


Senators and Congressmen get a similar benny package, why aren't they shelling out more money? And the ten percent works because there are so many people that pay into the system. You want 10% to work for you, find a few hundred thousand of your closest friends and pool your money.


I'd be more than happy for them to shell out a ton more money. Ain't going to bother me any. I suppose the reason there isn't a bigger push is because there are many more teachers than senators and congressmen

Do you teach math? What you are describing is either wrong or a ponzi scheme. I can pool everyone in the worlds money together and I would still only be entitled to the interest earned on my money. Unless the people who put in money want me to have some of their interest of course. If I put 1000 and you put 1000 we still only get the interest of our $1000 regardless of how many people we bring in. So since that is dead wrong I would assume what you are referring to is a ponzi scheme, that the current employees pay for your pension... what happens when you have more retirees than teachers? Uh-oh.


Erie Warrior wrote:I'm serious, privatize the entire thing. I know I'd get more money money out of that deal. Can't afford 10 grand to send your kid to 3rd grade, fuck you, work harder. And if you think you can do it for less, by all means go ahead.

Same for the police and firemen. Pay them when you use them. In fact, there are roads I never drive on. I will pay only for the roads I use. Set up toll booths at every intersection. And I can drive my own garbage to the dump, or I will burn it in my back yard. Actually, in your back yard because if you come over and complain, I'll beat your ass. Then when you call the police, you have to pay them before they do anything about it.


You are pretty level headed most of the time but this section just seems like you are stomping your feet with your fingers in your ears.

I am not sure how you are turning this into a debate about people not wanting services available that they don't use. Surely there are all things we don't use and would have no problem cutting, but I dont see how this debate is framed in that manner. They want to have them pay a fair share of health and pension benefits. They want the ability to reduce wages when needed. It isn't nearly as extreme as the drama queens are pretending it is. Guess what, if Wisco starts paying their teachers dick they can move to NY or California where liberals love to overspend on government and run up huge deficits. Then to get teachers wisco will have to pay more.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:26 pm

Ziner wrote: Unless the people who put in money want me to have some of their interest of course. If I put 1000 and you put 1000 we still only get the interest of our $1000 regardless of how many people we bring in.


Don't forget people leave their job, retire at different ages, and live different lengths of time. And yes, when there are more retirees than workers, that will be bad. That's one reason privatizing retirement is bad, those benefits are sustainable if the workforce all pays in. But splitting the work force will collapse the system.

And yes, I am stamping my feet, but the point remains that the retirement package is part of the appeal of the job. It pays fine, but I certainly took into account the benefits when I chose the field. I even based what division I worked for based on the benefits they provided. So would you.

And since I don't live in Wisc, it really doesn't apply to me. Now. In a few years it probably will. As long as the recommendations of the actuaries are followed, the system works fine. Those numbers are projected out for 80 years. If there is an issue with the funding, it can be addressed well in advance. At least well before "we are broke" comes into play.

The problem isn't the unions or the pension systems. It's the people voting that fucked up.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby comish » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:34 pm

The truly scary part for us "Pubs" is that the Ohio Bill (SB-5) is even MORE aggressive than the Wiscy Bill.

At least WE have that pesky citizen veto thingy

Do we value education in this country? Do we? I'm starting to think some of you don't, and it both amazes and dismays me. It appears, not only don't we value young peoples' education, but higher education as well. Having degrees apparantly doesn't matter anymore....I guess that whole economic concept of the importance of having an educated work force is getting tossed out the window...somebody better change the curriculum QUICK!

For every Lazy Larry 70K plus teacher that FMB and the rest of you Edu-Haters can drag up and point to as an example, I will show you 1,000 that are probably worth every penny. Have you folks BEEN IN a classroom lately? The game has changed, sirs, it is not for the faint of heart with State Mandates, eroding family structures, and kids who would rather text than test. You NEED educated, dedicated, and creative people in those positions...the load of crap that is SB-5 isn't going to bring em in, and is probably going to chase a few good ones OUT. You don't want that...trust me.

This whole budget thing makes me laugh. How much of the budget goes towards the public employees? I heard 8%...did I hear wrong? So to smooth over 8% of the overall budget we are going to screw upwards of 300,000 public employees. And when you do screw em, is it really going to help Tommy Tax Payer? We have heard NOTHING as to how this will help in the big picture.

What King Kasich is probably going to do is divert funds that would have gone to education to......? I dunno, do you? I will certainly admit that without the need to pay the teachers ANYTHING NEAR market value, and the ability to negotiate their health care the need for levies is probably gonzo. I know this makes some of you giddy. Your welcome I guess?

This is a sad day for Wisconsin...America is now dumber for what happened.

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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:43 pm

If pensions were self supporting with no help from the employer because of people leaving their job or people dying early then why wouldn't every single major corporation have one? Not only would you keep HR costs down because people would stay in their job longer they wouldn't be forced to match 401k's to be competitive. There is a serious flaw in your logic. Employees in the public sector are not paying in to the pension system that is needed to make it sustainable. Not trying to be a dick but I think you are denial, even about your own state.

http://www.alexandrianews.org/2010/2010 ... ystem-vrs/

In the face of an unfunded liability of $17.6 billion, combined with a growing number of state employees approaching retirement age, Governor Bob McDonnell announced today broad reforms to ensure the long-term solvency of Virginia’s state retirement system. Under the McDonnell plan all Virginia employees will now contribute 5% to their retirement plans for the first time since 1983. Employees will receive a 3% pay raise at the same time, leading to a net 2% employee contribution to the system and a 2% reduction in take home pay. The changes will pump an additional $300 million or more into the Virginia Retirement System (VRS) in FY 2012 alone. According to VRS, $300 million invested now and each year thereafter would grow to $4.2 billion in ten years.


Even with the increase it isnt enough. And that sure as shit sounds to me like employees were paying nothing in to the retirement system

Also what is happening with these pension systems is they are free from risk while the state (taxpayers) hold the risk. All of these pension funds are invested to attempt to provide the benefits promised. When the market goes down there is no change in benefit for retirees, just more fucking of the taxpayer or debt by the feds when they get a loan.

http://www.startribune.com/politics/loc ... 84878.html

Wisconsin's 267,000 public workers pay next to nothing out-of-pocket toward their pensions. State and local governments are supposed to pay half the retirement contribution, with employees paying the rest. But in Wisconsin, many union contracts stipulate that the employer -- which means taxpayers -- picks up the employee's share.

In Minnesota, it doesn't work that way because it can't. Here, public employees pay 5 to 6 percent of their salaries into their pensions, with taxpayers kicking in roughly the same amount. The split is written into state law and can't be tinkered with in collective bargaining agreements.


10-12% of employer and employee contributions do not produce pensions as generous as what are given to public employees.


http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepubli ... funds.html

The tab for local governments and the state to run these systems grew 448 percent over the past 10 years to $1.39 billion annually, according to a Republic analysis of the benefits paid to more than 111,000 retired public employees. In many cases, taxpayer contributions to the pension funds far exceed workers' contributions. In fact, most employees earn all their contributions back within three to four years of retiring.


Nothing about any of these are sustainable, and these are just the ones I bothered to include.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:52 pm

comish wrote:Do we value education in this country? Do we? I'm starting to think some of you don't, and it both amazes and dismays me. It appears, not only don't we value young peoples' education, but higher education as well. Having degrees apparantly doesn't matter anymore....I guess that whole economic concept of the importance of having an educated work force is getting tossed out the window...somebody better change the curriculum QUICK!


I forgot, how does Indiana survive after they pulled this 5 years ago? I hear their educational system is gone, vanished with the first signs of collective bargaining taken away. Stop with the over dramatization. It is played. How does the rest of the world who doesnt have collective bargaining survive?


comish wrote:For every Lazy Larry 70K plus teacher that FMB and the rest of you Edu-Haters can drag up and point to as an example, I will show you 1,000 that are probably worth every penny. Have you folks BEEN IN a classroom lately? The game has changed, sirs, it is not for the faint of heart with State Mandates, eroding family structures, and kids who would rather text than test. You NEED educated, dedicated, and creative people in those positions...the load of crap that is SB-5 isn't going to bring em in, and is probably going to chase a few good ones OUT. You don't want that...trust me.


So change careers. Quit being a bitch, if it is that awful and that horrendous leave. You sound rather faint of heart with your whiny bitching about what it is like. I forgot, teachers are the only ones who deal with issues or have annoyances at work. The rest of us just kick our feet up on the desk and chill.

Besides if there are so many great teachers that we don't want to leave why would you want collective bargaining? It is mind boggling. See where I work when I do a good job I don't negotiate for myself and all of my peers to get a raise. I get a raise based on my performance or my value. If I feel that I am getting paid below value I leave.


comish wrote:What King Kasich is probably going to do is divert funds that would have gone to education to......?


uh... I dunno either, maybe covering the roughly 10M budget shortfall? ::doh::

Edit: maybe some of that is a little too harsh. I should clarify, teachers are not enemies, I am just sick of the bitching from them. Sorry the gravy train was mistimed for the people who are in now, but we can't afford the gravy train any longer. Like I have said repeatedly, my employer has to tighten its belt and I had to tighten mine. Your employer has to tighten their belt you want everyone else to tighten theirs. I just have a tough time reconciling that.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:29 pm

Where the hell did your post go damnit. Now I look like a damn fool with 3 posts in a row. I swear everyone, I was responding to something

FTR comish, my father served on the school board at our school in suburban Toledo for 16 years.

That doesnt change the fact that collective bargaining is a relic and you guys are holding on to it for dear life. When I go to an employer they pay what I think I am worth, why you wouldn't want that is beyond me. It might take a while to get there, but it would be worth it for the great teachers you say that are out there that are underpaid.

And as to where Indiana ranks who knows, on what metrics, what are you concentrating on, do you compare them to Ohio and Illinois with much higher urban areas which one would think they would score better? IMO it is pretty tough to just "rank" state educational systems on the whole. However according to this

http://www.alec.org/AM/Template.cfm?Sec ... _Education

They are 13th, ahead of all their border states and Wisconsin

It is hard to find rankings, so I take that worth a grain of salt as well. I did however find something interesting

http://www.nea.org/assets/docs/010rankings.pdf

Go here. Go to page 68. Look at the flattening of students enrolled and look at the increases in teachers and instructors.

I found that the Indiana teachers average just over 49K, that is below the average, however they also have a significantly lower cost of living in Indiana than they do in some of the states that skew it. Bottom line, the teachers in Indiana are doing ok. Their middle class was not bludgeoned by Mitch Daniels because collective bargaining went away.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:09 pm

Ziner you're right, the division pays my 5%. We have a 2 tiered system now, anyone hired after July of last year pays 5%.

The systems can be sustained as long as the correct amount of money is deposited each year. That number is determined by an outside auditor.

General assemblies basically decide how much of that number to fund. In some cases (such as VA) they borrow against the money in the system. At 7%, to be paid off by 2023 in VA. But no one holds the state accountable. There is even talk of letting the states go into Chapter 11. That would be very bad, as the municipal bond market would crash, and so would everything else.

So the problem is budgets are over spent, less money is put into the system (and in some cases what is there is taken out) and then governors say they are broke and it's the union's fault. In reality, the system is broke because it is not funded (by choice) and the money is taken out of it.

Yes, the benefits package is a good deal. No, I don't want to pay into it if I don't have to. Yes, I want my state representatives to be responsible with the tax money they are given. No, I don't want the wrong people being blamed for the problem.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:21 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:Ziner you're right, the division pays my 5%. We have a 2 tiered system now, anyone hired after July of last year pays 5%.

The systems can be sustained as long as the correct amount of money is deposited each year. That number is determined by an outside auditor.

General assemblies basically decide how much of that number to fund. In some cases (such as VA) they borrow against the money in the system. At 7%, to be paid off by 2023 in VA. But no one holds the state accountable. There is even talk of letting the states go into Chapter 11. That would be very bad, as the municipal bond market would crash, and so would everything else.

So the problem is budgets are over spent, less money is put into the system (and in some cases what is there is taken out) and then governors say they are broke and it's the union's fault. In reality, the system is broke because it is not funded (by choice) and the money is taken out of it.

Yes, the benefits package is a good deal. No, I don't want to pay into it if I don't have to. Yes, I want my state representatives to be responsible with the tax money they are given. No, I don't want the wrong people being blamed for the problem.



This is certainly not a one problem, one solution, budget issue that faces these states. I think what you said above proves my point. What is that number that auditor suggests? Probably based on what the market does (essentially saying that your investments are risk free guaranteed by the taxpayers) plus the amount that was negotiated that the state would put in to ensure your pension benefits. Lets put it this way. You are putting 5% of your salary in to a pension fund which is supplemented by your employer. Someone at my company who has their 401K puts 5% and it gets match 4% from a employer match. That 9% is not EVER going to come close to the pension that you are getting. This tells me that your employer (the states) are promising FAR too generous benefits compared to what is the going rate. The NEA website says the average salary for teachers is 49K, that is not peanuts. That is a decent living, I know plenty of other college educated people who don't make that much. The pension system for public employees (not just teachers) is out of whack.

As to the unfunded liabilities that is solely on the politicians, many of who are in office today, and that is their fault, however when your benefits aren't based off the market but their liabilities are, that isnt a sustainable system. Certainly some of the shortfalls are due to the politicians robbing the piggy bank, but the overall amount that is due each year is largely due to politicians not being responsible to the public unions in the past.

Obama is the man in charge right now, why not figure out a way to balance his budget and increase funding to education. There are plenty of cuts in the defense programs, medicare, medicaid, and SS that could be made to put serious dents in deficits. Very few have the political will to do it. That is the taxpayers fault... they are the ones that apeshit like the people in Wisconsin when tough decisions have to be made. Where is Obama's effort to reform tax loopholes? There is a darn good way to increase revenues. Seems to me he might be afraid to raise taxes because it would push business else where. Interesting hypothesis I just developed there. (just a little side tangent that came to mind)
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby hermanfontenot » Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:25 pm

comish wrote:Do we value education in this country? Do we? I'm starting to think some of you don't, and it both amazes and dismays me. It appears, not only don't we value young peoples' education, but higher education as well. Having degrees apparantly doesn't matter anymore....I guess that whole economic concept of the importance of having an educated work force is getting tossed out the window...somebody better change the curriculum QUICK


See, this is the kind of self-righteous BS you can do without. You aren't heroes and it isn't about the children. It's about your bank account, your benefits and your sense of entitlement. Just be honest.

Fact is, the money is running out. Those of us in the private sector have already taken the hit. Now it's your turn. And you're going to take it. Either you take it now or you take it later.
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