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Cavs- Spurs

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Cavs- Spurs

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:52 pm

I can't take watching JJ and his step back, fade-away 20 foot jumpers much longer.

3/9 for 10 points and 7 boards on a night they needed something from him.

Anyone have a sense of what he'd bring after the season and before the draft? Is it possible anyone is dumb enough to consider him Roy Hinson? ;-) ;) :wink:

He can't be a building block for this team when you can't know what you're getting every night. Not even from a points/boards standpoint but from an effort and attention to detail standpoint.
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Re: Cavs- Spurs

Unread postby leadpipe » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:20 pm

Or, more simply, as a rule, you don't want your building block to me an imbecile.
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Re: Cavs- Spurs

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:44 pm

peeker643 wrote:I can't take watching JJ and his step back, fade-away 20 foot jumpers much longer.

3/9 for 10 points and 7 boards on a night they needed something from him.

Anyone have a sense of what he'd bring after the season and before the draft? Is it possible anyone is dumb enough to consider him Roy Hinson? ;-) ;) :wink:

He can't be a building block for this team when you can't know what you're getting every night. Not even from a points/boards standpoint but from an effort and attention to detail standpoint.


But if you read into his stats, they say the light is coming on. Just ask Pros :nanner:

Guy couldn't get court time from Roker b/c he was lost on D. Now he can't get out of Scott's doghouse b/c he can't bring full effort night in night out on either side of the court.

Might be time to ship him to NYK. He can just play O under D'Antoni and not worry 'bout D
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Re: Cavs- Spurs

Unread postby waborat » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:46 pm

peeker643 wrote:
Anyone have a sense of what he'd bring after the season and before the draft? Is it possible anyone is dumb enough to consider him Roy Hinson? ;-) ;) :wink:



Once again, I'd take Daugherty straight up
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Re: Cavs- Spurs

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:47 pm

Like I said in an ealier post we have the lowest basketball IQ in the league. If anyone has seens Samuels during an interview you can tell he isn't smart either. I'll give him a break only because he has had very limited playing time. Perhaps his basketball IQ is higher then what I can percieve through interview.

He had a very efficient 23 points and 10 boards. 8 of those offensive rebounds, played decent team d (compared to Hickson), and had 3 assists to 0 TO and 2 fouls. If he can give consistency during this strtch of extended playing time it can kill 2 birds. Hickson and Sullinger.
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Re: Cavs- Spurs

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:51 pm

Orenthal wrote:Like I said in an ealier post we have the lowest basketball IQ in the league. If anyone has seens Samuels during an interview you can tell he isn't smart either. I'll give him a break only because he has had very limited playing time. Perhaps his basketball IQ is higher then what I can percieve through interview.

He had a very efficient 23 points and 10 boards. 8 of those offensive rebounds, played decent team d (compared to Hickson), and had 3 assists to 0 TO and 2 fouls. If he can give consistency during this strtch of extended playing time it can kill 2 birds. Hickson and Sullinger.



Might also be immaturity and lack of experience, etc, but if the ball goes into Samuels there's a 98% chance it ain't coming back out. Court vision might be something you're born with and it might be something you can develop. It's neither right now with Samuels but you're willing to see if he gets more comfortable.
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Re: Cavs- Spurs

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:22 am

Samuels is the mirror image of Jim Abbott.

He's going to have to at least show people that he realizes left exists (the direction, his left hand etc.)

Doesn't take these pros too long to figure this shit out, especially if his minutes pick up.
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Re: Cavs- Spurs

Unread postby Orenthal » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:29 am

What scares me is Hickson 6'8", Samuels 6'8", Sullinger 6'8", Harangody 6'8". Not acting like any of them is a fixture, or that mix survives to next year, but this next 6 weeks will show if we can have a minimum investment in that position going into next year, and possibly turn Hickson into another future pick/piece.

Cuz I've seen enough of him, and am willing to risk any future upside by dealing.
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Re: Cavs- Spurs

Unread postby papacass » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:42 am

Hickson is a center. His best statistical games are always when he plays center. I really wish the Cavs would stop trying to shoehorn him in as a PF just because of his height.

Dude isn't laterally quick, so why on Earth would you send him out on the wing to play against forwards in open space? Jump-shooting isn't his forte, so why would you make him take the majority of his shots more than 10 feet from the basket?

Everyone needs to ignore the "6-9 in shoes" on his dossier, and recognize that his primary asset is his vertical jumping. He can jump for rebounds, he can jump for little hook shots, he can jump for stickbacks, and he can jump to finish lay-ins off cuts to the basket.

He's a center. That's his skill set. He can't help that he got a little short-changed in the height department. Yes, it does totally screw him when forced to match up with the likes of Dewey. But he's legit 17 and 10 in the paint. On the wing, he's 7 and 4 and venison in headlights.
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Re: Cavs- Spurs

Unread postby Orenthal » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:05 pm

If JJ Hickson cannot play PF he will have a hard time playing in the NBA. While he can accumulate stats by staying around the basket, his 6'8"'s is a total liability and it is proven when going through the game logs. He gets absolutely destroyed by guys 6'10" and above with any skill.

David Lee
Bogut
Nene
Bynum
Gasol
Aldridge
Boozer
Noah
Both Lopez brothers

Those guys either go off, or contain Hickson. The fact he is dumb and insanely inconsistent only further complicates. The reason the Cavaliers are pushing him to play power forward is because that is the place he needs to be if he wants to be part of a winning NBA team. Otherwise he is coming off the bench as a hybrid PF/C, or we continue to suck.
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Re: Cavs- Spurs

Unread postby Orenthal » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:12 pm

btw also looking at the game logs shows how wildly inconsistent he is even at the center position. During a big part of that stretch he was also a primary scoring option. I can't really knock the rebound numbers, as that is work, but on a good/great team Hickson is a bit player.
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Re: Cavs- Spurs

Unread postby jerryroche » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:13 pm

papacass wrote:Dude isn't laterally quick, so why on Earth would you send him out on the wing to play against forwards in open space? Jump-shooting isn't his forte, so why would you make him take the majority of his shots more than 10 feet from the basket?


Gotta disagree with you here, Papa. What you've described is a shooting/small forward. Smart/talented power forwards post up low with their back to the basket and use their strength to get to the hole. I've seen J.J. do this before. He's got the quick spin, the nice footwork, and the quick hops that would make him a force to be reckoned with down low.

He's a power forward. He should be taking 85% of his shots within 8 feet of the basket and completely forget the jumper (unless he develops it in future years). The key is (1) him knowing where he's most effective on the offensive end, (2) him working to get that good position, and -- of extreme importance -- (3) his teammates getting him the ball there.

If that kind of play fits into Byron's offense, J.J. can be mighty effective for many years to come. If not, it's better to trade him and let a more flexible head coach take advantage of J.J.'s potential.
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Re: Cavs- Spurs

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:43 pm

JJ played C last night and was miserable. Samuels was the 4.

JJ's bigger issue is his effort and basketball IQ.

Let me know what position fixes either of those.

And fadeaway 20-foot jumpers with 15 on the shot clock aren't really the shot preference of the better 4's or 5's in the league.
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Re: Cavs- Spurs

Unread postby papacass » Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:31 pm

jerryroche wrote:
papacass wrote:Dude isn't laterally quick, so why on Earth would you send him out on the wing to play against forwards in open space? Jump-shooting isn't his forte, so why would you make him take the majority of his shots more than 10 feet from the basket?


Gotta disagree with you here, Papa. What you've described is a shooting/small forward. Smart/talented power forwards post up low with their back to the basket and use their strength to get to the hole. I've seen J.J. do this before. He's got the quick spin, the nice footwork, and the quick hops that would make him a force to be reckoned with down low.


The way most NBA teams run things nowadays, the SF is a perimeter player. Pretty much a third guard with a bit more size. Power forwards can post, but a lot of them step away from the basket and play the intermediate game that SFs used to play.

That's what J.J. can't do. You're right in that he has the inside game. But it's a center's game in the current NBA. I'm not advocating that the Cavs build around Hickson as their C of the future, because 6'-9" is awfully small unless you're a defensive freak like Ben Wallace. All I'm saying is that his game is more naturally a center's game, and if you want to get the most out of him, you need to play him in the paint. That's where you're going to get the points and rebounds from him.

And Peeker, both guys played some C last night. But I'm pretty sure one of the news-type guys on WKNR said on Tuesday that Samuels would start at C and Hickson would slide over to PF for the Spurs game.
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Re: Cavs- Spurs

Unread postby waborat » Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:41 pm

papacass wrote:
And Peeker, both guys played some C last night.


I'm impressed that both of you gents actually still watch enough of the games to know this^^^^

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Re: Cavs- Spurs

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:14 pm

papacass wrote:
And Peeker, both guys played some C last night. But I'm pretty sure one of the news-type guys on WKNR said on Tuesday that Samuels would start at C and Hickson would slide over to PF for the Spurs game.


I know it. And I know they slide around depending on matchups, etc as well as that the front line positions are basically interchangeable with this team.

But the fact is he still plays some C on almost any given night yet he still finds the time to loft bad shots from 20-feet.

Just horrible to watch

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Re: Cavs- Spurs

Unread postby leadpipe » Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:03 pm

papacass wrote:
jerryroche wrote:
papacass wrote:Dude isn't laterally quick, so why on Earth would you send him out on the wing to play against forwards in open space? Jump-shooting isn't his forte, so why would you make him take the majority of his shots more than 10 feet from the basket?


Gotta disagree with you here, Papa. What you've described is a shooting/small forward. Smart/talented power forwards post up low with their back to the basket and use their strength to get to the hole. I've seen J.J. do this before. He's got the quick spin, the nice footwork, and the quick hops that would make him a force to be reckoned with down low.


The way most NBA teams run things nowadays, the SF is a perimeter player. Pretty much a third guard with a bit more size. Power forwards can post, but a lot of them step away from the basket and play the intermediate game that SFs used to play.

That's what J.J. can't do. You're right in that he has the inside game. But it's a center's game in the current NBA. I'm not advocating that the Cavs build around Hickson as their C of the future, because 6'-9" is awfully small unless you're a defensive freak like Ben Wallace. All I'm saying is that his game is more naturally a center's game, and if you want to get the most out of him, you need to play him in the paint. That's where you're going to get the points and rebounds from him.

And Peeker, both guys played some C last night. But I'm pretty sure one of the news-type guys on WKNR said on Tuesday that Samuels would start at C and Hickson would slide over to PF for the Spurs game.


Essentially, aren't we just describing why JJ isn't that good. Understand Cass' point, but I don't care if he jumps out of the gym, and has the "reach of a 7 footer." Can't play center in today's NBA with that size. Now, to the point that center is his best position, is to my point that he ain't helpin' you much.

The fact that athlete can't play forward tells us much.
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Re: Cavs- Spurs

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:19 am

JJ could be a hell of a change of pace center for a playoff team though!

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