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Phil Steele Ranks 2011 Freshmen

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Phil Steele Ranks 2011 Freshmen

Unread postby danwismar » Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:59 pm

http://blog.philsteele.com/2011/02/24/2 ... ing-frosh/

Steele ranks his Top 10 incoming frosh in each of eight position categories.

Buckeyes have 4 kids in this top 80 (LB Curtis Grant, QB Braxton Miller, CB Doran Grant, TE Nick Vannett)

Big Ten newcomer Nebraska has two...QB Bubba Starling and RB Aaron Green, but beyond that, the other TEN conference teams have a total of ONE guy on Steele's list...MSU LB Lawrence Thomas.

I've harped on this before, but this is further confirmation that the talent gap in the Big Ten is growing, not shrinking...at least among the so-called "elite" players.
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Re: Phil Steele Ranks 2011 Freshmen

Unread postby neoleo » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:51 pm

danwismar wrote:http://blog.philsteele.com/2011/02/24/2011s-top-incoming-frosh/

Steele ranks his Top 10 incoming frosh in each of eight position categories.

Buckeyes have 4 kids in this top 80 (LB Curtis Grant, QB Braxton Miller, CB Doran Grant, TE Nick Vannett)

Big Ten newcomer Nebraska has two...QB Bubba Starling and RB Aaron Green, but beyond that, the other TEN conference teams have a total of ONE guy on Steele's list...MSU LB Lawrence Thomas.

I've harped on this before, but this is further confirmation that the talent gap in the Big Ten is growing, not shrinking...at least among the so-called "elite" players.


Is this a true indication of the talent gap between the conferences, or more proof that the rating systems over-value players from the south?

I don't follow Steele as much as I used to, and I don't think he's gone the line of Scout, Rivals and ESPN, but I know those sites place most of their top 100 in the southeast.

I don't doubt that those states produce talent, obviously they produce a whole lot, but I believe players get rated higher because they're from the south, while players from the midwest, outside of the top obvious 5-star guys like Doran Grant, don't get rated as high as they probably should.

If A.J. Hawk and Nick Mangold where from Florida, they would have been 5 star guys.
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Re: Phil Steele Ranks 2011 Freshmen

Unread postby jb » Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:00 pm

Talent out of HS? sure.

Talent on the field in college?

Cue up Lee Corso.

Where was James White ranked last year?

While I tend to agree with you on some level dan, acorns not = oaks.
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Re: Phil Steele Ranks 2011 Freshmen

Unread postby pup » Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:31 pm

I took it as Dan talking about the talent gap within the Big 10 and with the Buckeyes getting 4, Braska 2 and the rest of the conference 1 shows it will continue.
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Re: Phil Steele Ranks 2011 Freshmen

Unread postby danwismar » Thu Feb 24, 2011 8:41 pm

It's not just within the conference, Pup and JB.

That's part of it, but not all of it. This top 80 by Steele is just the latest...not the only example of the way the conference (except OSU) is really struggling in recruiting. It was not a good year at all for the conference...and not just at the elite level.

A couple of weeks ago, the Scout recruiting class rankings came out for 2011, and OSU and ND were the only two programs in the northeast quadrant of the country that were ranked in the top 25 classes. OSU is saved by the fact that Ohio is still a state crazed by football, and continues to produce lots of talent...and JT has been able to get the best of what the state produces...but the fortunes of ND, UM, MSU, WI, among others is largely dependent on how many good players they can swipe from Ohio, which lately hasn't been many. PA, IN, KY, MI, WV, MN....produce not much at all...maybe a stud or two a year. NY and all of New England...even fewer.

I'll stipulate that the ranking services seem to have a bias for southern and western players, but we're kidding ourselves if we think the talent isn't moving south and west along with the rest of the population.

Project it out to the NFL. I didn't look at Tony Grossi's mock draft today, but I saw Doug L at the PD tweeting about it, saying it contained no more than one or two (none?, I forget) Big Ten players in the first round. Thought that was interesting, especially since Clayborn and Heyward were considered locks at the start of the season. Carimi, the WI tackle isn't even a lock anymore, I hear.

Point is...the Big Ten is no longer getting the elite players in the country. Yes, they get some....but it's a trend we're talking about, not an absolute.

For Michigan and ND to be successful at all, they have to recruit very strongly from TX, FL, CA and to some degree IL...and steal some good Ohio kids. The Bucks go to FL for an average of about 3-4 really quality kids every year. Recruiting the Midwest just isn't going to cut it anymore...at least if we're talking about competing for the BCS title.

Marcus Hartman of BSB had a good summary just today of exactly where Tressel's recruits have come from in his 11 classes since he's been here...FYI

http://ohiostate.scout.com/2/1050264.html
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Re: Phil Steele Ranks 2011 Freshmen

Unread postby danwismar » Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:13 pm

couple more things...

The Big Ten disparity was really brought into focus for me when I read an evaluation or two after signing day and looked at what the other Big Ten schools brought in. As just two examples....More than one evaluator was calling A.J. Jordan the "jewel" of the Wisconsin recruiting class. Jordan is a nice player...a receiver from Trotwood (OH) Madison...but he was thought to be a half-step slow and a bit small for OSU's profile and he didn't get an offer from the Buckeyes...but he's the pick of the litter up north.

(God knows we've let more than a few Ohio receivers get away to the Badgers over the years....Lee Evans, Chris Chambers, and this year, a kid from Boardman that I love but whose name escapes me at the moment...but that's kind of beside the point.) I give Wisky a ton of credit though...they and Iowa do seem to do more with less....I agree it's not ALL about high school press clippings and recruiting rankings. Tressel proves that as well as anyone with the Hawks and the Jenkins types.

Then there's Indiana....new coach...offensive minded guy...if you look at their recruiting evaluation, again, the guy they're most excited about in their class is Shane Wynn, a 5' 6", 155 lb receiver/returner from Glenville who the Buckeyes liked, but ultimately didn't offer. Guys like this get away from the state all the time, but you'd think a Big Ten program would have more to brag about in their recruiting than a tiny kick returner who wasn't good enough to get an offer from his home state program. The state of Indiana has produced just a handful of D-1 studs in recent years, and OSU grabbed two of them (RB Rod Smith last year, and DT Joel Hale this year....Larimore also recently)

And OSU has absolutely looted the state of PA in the last four years....again this year with Ejuan Price.

In the last five years, exactly two Ohio kids got offers from OSU and then chose to go to Michigan, and you might not have heard of either of them (TE Kevin Koger from Toledo and JT Turner from Massillon) Maybe Hoke starts to make inroads soon in Ohio, but I'll believe it when I see it. ND's Kelly definitely will start to hurt Tressel...and soon, I suspect. JT has had relatively easy sailing lately...that will change.
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Re: Phil Steele Ranks 2011 Freshmen

Unread postby furls » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:32 pm

ND has and will continue to poach kids from the Cincy catholic schools. If JT can limit it to that, then he is fine.

Steele is much more "geographically neutral" than Rivals, Scout and ESPiN, but I tend to believe that the Midwest/Ohio/PA etc. are still putting out the same number of quality kids that they have been. I just think that in general, the Southeast recruits have been largely overvalued. I think that Steele's list is more a statement of the relative health of the programs in the B10.

Michigan was going to be down a bit when Carr left, the cupboards were a bit bare, but DickRod was an absolute fucking disaster. He was a lousy recruiter for scUM from day one. The fact that scUM only "won" 2 recruiting battles against OSU in five years for an Ohio kid just shows you how bad it was. The program is a mess and will be a mess until they can start bringing some kids in, it is going to be a 3 year rebuilding program for an amazing coach with lots of "pop" (think Harbaugh), for Hoke, I am not sure he will ever get it done. Right now coaches are working their 2012 classes, these kids were born in 1994 (when I graduated) and were ~9 years old the last time scUM beat OSU. The last time they saw a really good scUM team was in '06, when they were 12. As far as they know, scUM used to be good in much the same way I think of SMU as a team that was good.

ND.... see scUM above.

PSU: There is a lot of concern over the future coaching situation there and playing for the legend is losing its luster. There are also rumors of infighting among the PSU staff.

Wisky has never really recruited well. They get some decent kids (3-4 every year), but fill there classes very well with 3* players that do what Wisky does and they coach their kids up to fit their system. It isn't sexy, but it is effective.

Iowa: see wisky.

Purdue: sucks now.

Indiana: Has always sucked

NW: Underrated coach and program that really recruits in a different neighborhood based on academic standards.

Nebraska: Is on the way up and moving to the B10 will help them immeasurably. 'Braska will be much more successful in IL and OH now then they were in TX/OK and nationally recently. Pelini as an OH guy helps.
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Re: Phil Steele Ranks 2011 Freshmen

Unread postby furls » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:33 pm

ND has and will continue to poach kids from the Cincy catholic schools. If JT can limit it to that, then he is fine.

Steele is much more "geographically neutral" than Rivals, Scout and ESPiN, but I tend to believe that the Midwest/Ohio/PA etc. are still putting out the same number of quality kids that they have been. I just think that in general, the Southeast recruits have been largely overvalued. I think that Steele's list is more a statement of the relative health of the programs in the B10.

Michigan was going to be down a bit when Carr left, the cupboards were a bit bare, but DickRod was an absolute fucking disaster. He was a lousy recruiter for scUM from day one. The fact that scUM only "won" 2 recruiting battles against OSU in five years for an Ohio kid just shows you how bad it was. The program is a mess and will be a mess until they can start bringing some kids in, it is going to be a 3 year rebuilding program for an amazing coach with lots of "pop" (think Harbaugh), for Hoke, I am not sure he will ever get it done. Right now coaches are working their 2012 classes, these kids were born in 1994 (when I graduated) and were ~9 years old the last time scUM beat OSU. The last time they saw a really good scUM team was in '06, when they were 12. As far as they know, scUM used to be good in much the same way I think of SMU as a team that was good.

ND.... see scUM above.

PSU: There is a lot of concern over the future coaching situation there and playing for the legend is losing its luster. There are also rumors of infighting among the PSU staff.

Wisky has never really recruited well. They get some decent kids (3-4 every year), but fill there classes very well with 3* players that do what Wisky does and they coach their kids up to fit their system. It isn't sexy, but it is effective.

Iowa: see wisky.

Purdue: sucks now.

Indiana: Has always sucked

NW: Underrated coach and program that really recruits in a different neighborhood based on academic standards.

Nebraska: Is on the way up and moving to the B10 will help them immeasurably. 'Braska will be much more successful in IL and OH now then they were in TX/OK and nationally recently. Pelini as an OH guy helps.
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Re: Phil Steele Ranks 2011 Freshmen

Unread postby jb » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:05 pm

Rules-wise, how much cn scUM get their NFLers involved in recruiting?

Talking 100% out my cornhole, that seems like the only way they could get the attention of some of these kids.
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Re: Phil Steele Ranks 2011 Freshmen

Unread postby danwismar » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:36 pm

jb wrote:Rules-wise, how much cn scUM get their NFLers involved in recruiting?

Talking 100% out my cornhole, that seems like the only way they could get the attention of some of these kids.


Can't quote you chapter and verse on the regs, JB, but I think former players pretty much qualify as "boosters" from the NCAA standpoint, so their contacts with recruits are quite restricted, IIRC.

They might "orchestrate" a chance meeting (oxymoron, I know) for a handshake if Charles Woodson happens to be on campus for the roundball game or whatever. If the recruit initiates the contact (with any booster) it's technically legit, but they aren't permitted to discuss recruiting.

If I've got this wrong, someone please correct me.

...so I had to look it up in the NCAA regs....and from what I can see, contact with former players in the NFL would be greatly restricted...like prohibited...unless it's a former player, on the staff of the football program, and is an authorized contact person for that recruit. IOW, Jake Long can't call recruits and talk up Michigan. Not allowed.

Too bad...because he could tell them what it's like to go 0-4 against the Buckeyes.

Don't think I ever waded through the NCAA rules manual before...un-'effin-believable.

(444-page pdf)...If you're so inclined:

http://www.ncaapublications.com/p-4180- ... anual.aspx
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