No Holds Barred

by **danwismar** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:04 pm

Just thought it was about time to start a thread on Libya....seeing as how the one with Egypt and Cleveland in the title has devolved into being about anything but those two things...and because Libya just seems to be on the front burner today.

How do people feel about establishing no-fly zones over the country? It's something Libyan officials (diplomats?)have specifically asked for. How long should we (the international community?...whatever that is) let the nutcase dictator massacre his own people....sow chaos in the oil sector...or turn his navy on his port cities?

Will it be left to us to enforce it? Is that a bad thing? Damned if I know.

Ex-CIA guy Bob Baer, who seems to me a smart and well-informed dude, says he thinks it will get worse before it gets better....in Time mag...

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 61,00.html

by **Orenthal** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:17 pm

Hey no need for Obama to say anything, when officials within the Libyan government denounce their own leader...

http://www.politico.com/blogs/lauraroze ... ocide.html

"The world is watching the situation in Libya with alarm," Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said in a statement Monday. "We join the international community in strongly condemning the violence in Libya. ... Now is the time to stop this unacceptable bloodshed. We are working urgently with friends and partners around the world to convey this message to the Libyan government."

by **mistero** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:55 pm

Air drop small arms, food and medicine. Let the poeple claim their own destiny.

by **RickNashEquilibrium** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:10 pm

mistero wrote:Air drop small arms, food and medicine. Let the poeple claim their own destiny.

I said the same thing in the Egypt/Cleveland thread. Take up a firearm and stake a claim for your own rights and freedoms.

by **Cerebral_DownTime** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:09 pm

Yes. Lets arm a population that we have no idea about.

Great idea.

So they kill Mumar...... then what?

by **Ziner** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:16 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Yes. Lets arm a population that we have no idea about.

Great idea.

So they kill Mumar...... then what?

You and your constant planning. Why does there always have to be plan?

Live a little.

by **Orenthal** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:21 pm

"Then what," is happening now. There is no plan, and no idea what is going to happen.

What would France do??? :hide:

by **Cerebral_DownTime** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:26 pm

Orenthal wrote:"Then what," is happening now. There is no plan, and no idea what is going to happen.

What would France do???

All i'm saying is if you arm a population and it devolves into factional civil war or some Islamatard regime, you really haven't helped the cause of Democracy..... Or Oil Production

Plus the idea of dropping weapons on any country in the ME is laughable. They have that covered. No shortage of Soviet era arms.

by **danwismar** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:07 pm

Well, it took about three posts to go from trying to prevent aerial bombing...to suggesting we airdrop handguns...

How 'bout we airdrop Kindles...oops, sorry...wrong thread.

by **Orenthal** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:34 pm

Don't be such a stuffed shirt Dan. If you want a serious dialogue skim through 200+ posts of the other thread. I am sure our opinions on Egypt/Iran/Tunsia/Whatever else is in there will suffice. No need to write another bible on a mostly parellel situation.

by **Cerebral_DownTime** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:38 pm

Anyone see the Bio on Carlos the Jackal on Sundance?

by **mistero** » Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:02 pm

It's just that I'm tired of the 3rd world. Why does the answer always have to come from outside? Why does the answer for their dictators and starvation have to come from the U.N.?

Are you Libian? Are you patriotic? Do you care for your family? Community? Self? Then do something positive about it. Don't wait for the blue helmets to overthrow Khadafi. Americans wouldn't wait.

Do it yourself, and you pick your future. The rest of the world should butt out (except those airdrops :clap:

).

by **RickNashEquilibrium** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 12:56 am

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Yes. Lets arm a population that we have no idea about.

Great idea.

So they kill Mumar...... then what?

Like, you missed my point dude. I never advocated the US or UN arming those people. All I am suggesting is that if citizens of certain countries are pissed off at The Man, take some damn action and do it yourself. No more help, no more big brother. And guess what, if those same seekers of democracy who overthrow a government rise up only to be a bigger threat than their predecessors, someone mentioned the concept of carpet bombing in another thread.

At some point, this shit comes to a head and a country/region will either fall in line or war breaks out. Is what is. Why not let those folks kill each other off (if that's what they wish) and have the chips fall where they may? I am seriously at the cusp of not really giving a fuck about the world except for the continental United States. We have enough problems internally and with the growing instability of northern Mexico, the baddies south of the border are going to do something reprehensible to the point the US has to get involved. Maybe not now, maybe not soon, but eventually. Other than 9/11, and WTC, the US is fortunate not to have as many domestic attacks due to us being isolated topographically. Who knows, maybe I am just a crazy, tunnel visioned, xenophobe, but I'd like to think people can pull themselves out of the stone age without the help of the good old U S of A.

:cheers:

by **Ziner** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:01 am

RickNashEquilibrium wrote:I am seriously at the cusp of not really giving a fuck about the world except for the continental United States.

Whatchu got against Alaska and Hawaii?

by **RickNashEquilibrium** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:03 am

Ziner wrote:
RickNashEquilibrium wrote:I am seriously at the cusp of not really giving a fuck about the world except for the continental United States.

Whatchu got against Alaska and Hawaii?

Carlos Boozer, Trajan Langdon, and infinite amounts of nice weather.

by **Cerebral_DownTime** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 1:29 am

RickNashEquilibrium wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Yes. Lets arm a population that we have no idea about.

Great idea.

So they kill Mumar...... then what?

Like, you missed my point dude. I never advocated the US or UN arming those people. All I am suggesting is that if citizens of certain countries are pissed off at The Man, take some damn action and do it yourself. No more help, no more big brother. And guess what, if those same seekers of democracy who overthrow a government rise up only to be a bigger threat than their predecessors, someone mentioned the concept of carpet bombing in another thread.

At some point, this shit comes to a head and a country/region will either fall in line or war breaks out. Is what is. Why not let those folks kill each other off (if that's what they wish) and have the chips fall where they may? I am seriously at the cusp of not really giving a fuck about the world except for the continental United States. We have enough problems internally and with the growing instability of northern Mexico, the baddies south of the border are going to do something reprehensible to the point the US has to get involved. Maybe not now, maybe not soon, but eventually. Other than 9/11, and WTC, the US is fortunate not to have as many domestic attacks due to us being isolated topographically. Who knows, maybe I am just a crazy, tunnel visioned, xenophobe, but I'd like to think people can pull themselves out of the stone age without the help of the good old U S of A.

Wasn't talking about what you said. It was about the idea of air dropping arms. Food and Medicine is fine. Just not guns IMO.

by **Orenthal** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:38 am

I disagree with all of it. Send in William Eaton. Once we stop being world police we stop being superpower. We get involved to further our own interests. Lets get us some errrrrrl.

by **mattvan1** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:02 pm

mistero wrote:It's just that I'm tired of the 3rd world. Why does the answer always have to come from outside? Why does the answer for their dictators and starvation have to come from the U.N.?

Are you Libian? Are you patriotic? Do you care for your family? Community? Self? Then do something positive about it. Don't wait for the blue helmets to overthrow Khadafi. Americans wouldn't wait.

Do it yourself, and you pick your future. The rest of the world should butt out (except those airdrops ).

This is all tongue-in-cheek, right? I mean comparing a poorly educated dirt poor population with no resources to the US with respect to rambo-ing their way toward democracy? Egypt was the perfect storm in terms of a revolt, and EOD, the military is still in charge. For all we know the situation might get worse. Everywhere else, the uprisings will be violenty crushed without some type of suport/intervention from either the US, UN, NATO....

Which is unlikely to happen. So as much as the US government likes to arrogantly sit back and yell "go for it" all that does is get more people killed. Worst case scenario - the first in with support is militant Islam, while the US cheers from the sidelines. Those countries just can't do it on their own, if the regime is not threatend from the outside or at least pressured to change.

by **mistero** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 2:40 pm

Those countries just can't do it on their own, if the regime is not threatend from the outside or at least pressured to change.

Why and says who? Sounds like an elitist thing to say. Self-determination only good for western europeans?

by **mattvan1** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:33 pm

mistero wrote:Those countries just can't do it on their own, if the regime is not threatend from the outside or at least pressured to change.

Why and says who? Sounds like an elitist thing to say. Self-determination only good for western europeans?

I probably need to clarify. Self-determination is fine. So after a country determines (for themselves) a new path along which to walk, they do what, exactly? Ask the current government to quitely leave?

I was talking from a pragmatic POV. Extremely difficult to overthrow a govenment, any government, unless you have either your own militia, military, or someone else's, on your side.

Maybe I am missing a couple of regime changes that didn't include the military as part of the process. Bloodless or not, the army is usually part of the package. It certainly was in Egypt. That was my point. It has nothing to do with a people's right for self determination - it has everything to do with the mechanism to enforce that right.

by **Ziner** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:47 pm

I am with Mattavan, it is one thing to over throw the Brits with muskets and a calvary. Completely different when Gaddafi is sending fighter jets to shoot on crowds. Said the same thing about Iraq and Iran. The people of Egypt only were successful in overthrowing Mubarak because he is only a partial dick head. Saddam or Amedijhardonjihad would have shot first and listened after.

by **RickNashEquilibrium** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 3:52 pm

mattvan1 wrote:I probably need to clarify. Self-determination is fine. So after a country determines (for themselves) a new path along which to walk, they do what, exactly? Ask the current government to quitely leave?

I was talking from a pragmatic POV. Extremely difficult to overthrow a govenment, any government, unless you have either your own militia, military, or someone else's, on your side.

Maybe I am missing a couple of regime changes that didn't include the military as part of the process. Bloodless or not, the army is usually part of the package. It certainly was in Egypt. That was my point. It has nothing to do with a people's right for self determination - it has everything to do with the mechanism to enforce that right.

I am with you on that last part in terms of a people needing a mechanism to enforce change. The point I was originally trying to make is hard to put into words. I guess what I mean is if the US and our allies see a significant chunk of the ME as a threat and they want to install a democracy, I just cannot believe it won't happen without an enormous amount of bloodshed. Not to say our proud men and women who have made the ultimate sacrifice in Iraq/Afghanistan don't count, but to make such a sweeping change like Westernizing an entire assbackward region of the world seems impossible without the possibility of WW3. That or the indigenous folks of those countries find a way to do it themselves.

by **danwismar** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:50 pm

Just heard a report (al-Arabia TV) that Libyan military officials shot and killed 135 soldiers...for refusing to fire on unarmed demonstrators. I think you can officially declare this fucking chaos now.

by **RickNashEquilibrium** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:20 pm

danwismar wrote:Just heard a report (al-Arabia TV) that Libyan military officials shot and killed 135 soldiers...for refusing to fire on unarmed demonstrators. I think you can officially declare this fucking chaos now.

Did anyone report this individual at the scene?

by jb » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:06 pm

Guys it is fucking insane to throw ourselves into the beach of ME revolutions. Is China? Fuck no. let it play out.

Only reson I can see for involvement is to get our citizens out of there.

BTW - Ths shit may really be getting ready to hit the fan:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12570842

Stimulus bribe.

by **Orenthal** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:14 pm

I want some m'fing errrrrl.

On a serious not do you think China stays out or obstructs? IMO China's only foriegn policy is stymie any US involvement, in anything.

The US should get involved if we feel it is in our interest. I would to stabalize oil production. Use humanitarian concerns as the reason to do that... Get the street behind you, at worst install puppet, at best provide environment for new "stable" leadership.

by jb » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:18 pm

Orenthal wrote:I want some m'fing errrrrl.

On a serious not do you think China stays out or obstructs? IMO China's only foriegn policy is stymie any US involvement.

The US should get involved if we feel it is in our interest. I would to stabalize oil production. Use humanitarian concerns as the reason to do that... Get the street behind you, at worst install puppet, at best provide environment for new "stable" leadership.

The Arab street plays us. Not vice verse. Unles we can get some images of Barrack Huusein Obama on a prayer matt circulated stat. ;-)

It's a cluster fuck OJ. And since when did US government make something better? Thought you were a free market guy? The free market of world real politic is in full swing. Best to wait it out and let money and the best military gear talk when it is all said and done. This is way the fuck out of our control. If we need to protect our citizens ala barbary pirates or fall of saigon, so be it. Go in. take names, get out. That's it.

$ 5 / gallon gas for shizzle this may & June though. Buy some nice patio furniture.

by **Orenthal** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:27 pm

I hear ya, and am not opposed. I'm not a free market guy in terms of foriegn relations. I'm more like United States do whatever you want guy.

We invaded, and took over a city in Tripoli during our war with the Barbary pirates. Hence my mention of William Eaton. BTW we used an army of mercenaries including the Pasha's brother.

by **mattvan1** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:44 pm

jb wrote:Guys it is fucking insane to throw ourselves into the beach of ME revolutions. Is China? Fuck no. let it play out.

Only reson I can see for involvement is to get our citizens out of there.

Oh God yes Jim. Agree 100% with your comments. I am not advocating the US send troops, but merely pointing out the fallacy of screaming "C'mon you pussies, man up and overthrow the government" as if the majority of the population of Libya played 8th grade football.

by **peeker643** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:38 pm

mattvan1 wrote:
jb wrote:Guys it is fucking insane to throw ourselves into the beach of ME revolutions. Is China? Fuck no. let it play out.

Only reson I can see for involvement is to get our citizens out of there.

Oh God yes Jim. Agree 100% with your comments. I am not advocating the US send troops, but merely pointing out the fallacy of screaming "C'mon you pussies, man up and overthrow the government" as if the majority of the population of Libya played 8th grade football.

8th grade football?

Holy shit. I played that.

Who's with me? Let's GOOOooooooooooo!!!

by **Cerebral_DownTime** » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:53 pm

peeker643 wrote:
mattvan1 wrote:
jb wrote:Guys it is fucking insane to throw ourselves into the beach of ME revolutions. Is China? Fuck no. let it play out.

Only reson I can see for involvement is to get our citizens out of there.

Oh God yes Jim. Agree 100% with your comments. I am not advocating the US send troops, but merely pointing out the fallacy of screaming "C'mon you pussies, man up and overthrow the government" as if the majority of the population of Libya played 8th grade football.

8th grade football?

Holy shit. I played that.

Who's with me? Let's GOOOooooooooooo!!!

I'm with you on the following conditions.

1) I drive.

2) How long will it take to get there?

D) There better be beer.

9) I get to punch any foreinger at anytime for any reason. Even if i'm the foreinger in their country, i'm still right.

X) Everyone has mustaches.

by **Orenthal** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:06 am

9) I get to punch any foreinger at anytime for any reason. Even if i'm the foreinger in their country, i'm still right.

Winner!

Even in their country they are foreingers. Non American scum.

by **peeker643** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:09 am

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
mattvan1 wrote:
jb wrote:Guys it is fucking insane to throw ourselves into the beach of ME revolutions. Is China? Fuck no. let it play out.

Only reson I can see for involvement is to get our citizens out of there.

Oh God yes Jim. Agree 100% with your comments. I am not advocating the US send troops, but merely pointing out the fallacy of screaming "C'mon you pussies, man up and overthrow the government" as if the majority of the population of Libya played 8th grade football.

8th grade football?

Holy shit. I played that.

Who's with me? Let's GOOOooooooooooo!!!

I'm with you on the following conditions.

1) I drive.

2) How long will it take to get there?

D) There better be beer.

9) I get to punch any foreinger at anytime for any reason. Even if i'm the foreinger in their country, i'm still right.

X) Everyone has mustaches.

Fuck. The babysitter backed out and the wife has to work that weekend we were gonna do this thing of ours.

Sorry boys.

You guys think we could map this out on CoD and then do it when the weather's a bit better?

And I'm definitely down for the mustaches and the Chinese symbol tattoos.

by **Orenthal** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:11 am

We're going in Merc style? I'm going full renegade...

by **peeker643** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:33 am

Orenthal wrote:We're going in Merc style? I'm going full renegade...

You'll still be wearing pants, right? I don't actually play CoD so I don't know what you kids consider full renegade.

Can we bring FMB?

by **Triple-S** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:54 am

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:8th grade football?

Holy shit. I played that.

Who's with me? Let's GOOOooooooooooo!!!

I'm with you on the following conditions.

1) I drive.

2) How long will it take to get there?

D) There better be beer.

9) I get to punch any foreinger at anytime for any reason. Even if i'm the foreinger in their country, i'm still right.

X) Everyone has mustaches.[/quote]

this post is awesome.

by **mattvan1** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:36 am

Cerebral_DownTime wrote: I'm with you on the following conditions.

1) I drive.

2) How long will it take to get there?

Can't tell you. Google Maps is stumped.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Galloway,+OH&daddr=Tripoli,+Tarabulus,+Libya&geocode=FZ4GYQId1AoL-ymBqPAuKZo4iDGQqlBhX7z9UQ%3B&hl=en&mra=ls&sll=39.913118,-83.162412&sspn=0.159054,0.362892&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=3

by **Orenthal** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:41 am

peeker643 wrote:
Orenthal wrote:We're going in Merc style? I'm going full renegade...

You'll still be wearing pants, right? I don't actually play CoD so I don't know what you kids consider full renegade.

Can we bring FMB?

Yes, I'll wear pants...

The game isn't CoD. I'm too old to play that with any skill. Mass Effect.

by **Fire Marshall Bill** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:33 pm

I believe all Middle East problems can be solved by nuclear annihilation

No need to leave the sofa unles you're going for the thrill of it. I that case count me in but,be advised. I'm giving the orders...you route steppin yard birds

...and the boys from 3rd Platoon Bravo 5/46 198 are locked and loaded waiting for beer
and a plane ride

Ya'lls don't give a hoot ana hollar if most of 'em are 'necks, does yas?

by **FUDU** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:04 pm

I've got 18" of snow in my driveway so I don't give two fucks about the rest of the world's problems.

by **Ziner** » Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:55 pm

FUDU wrote:I've got 18" of snow in my driveway so I don't give two fucks about the rest of the world's problems.

Charlie Sheen would have that taken care of in about an hour.

by **danwismar** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:03 pm

Priceless

by **peeker643** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:22 pm

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:
Ya'lls don't give a hoot ana hollar if most of 'em are 'necks, does yas?

Kiddin' me? Whenever I can be in the company of gentlemen (more or less) who actually give a shit about mama, Jesus and Jones (George, not Turkey) I'm down with that.

You'll never starve, wonder who's got your back or be the dumbest man around the camp fire if you travel with those boys. :lmfao:

And I'm still more than willing to hang with the guys who ain't sold on the whole Jesus thing.

by **Fire Marshall Bill** » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:06 pm

peeker643 wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:
Ya'lls don't give a hoot ana hollar if most of 'em are 'necks, does yas?

Kiddin' me? Whenever I can be in the company of gentlemen (more or less) who actually give a shit about mama, Jesus and Jones (George, not Turkey) I'm down with that.

You'll never starve, wonder who's got your back or be the dumbest man around the camp fire if you travel with those boys.

And I'm still more than willing to hang with the guys who ain't sold on the whole Jesus thing.

Had you been to my platoon reunion last October you'da considered it Divine Intervention, brother...

28 guys and only 9 Yankees. I should post some pics on my flikr site....every guy in the group photo is someone you'd make fun of if you didn't know your life may be in your hands if you did...

40 fuking yrs gone but the Brotherhood was instant and the war stories awesome to re-hash with those you actually fought with

Got 'em all

From Full Bird Col, brigade commander refusing to use his personal chopper to pick up a wounded man to my platoon sgt getting an Article 15 and a fine for expending too much artillery for 5 KIS...ignoring the fact they were swarming the chopper pad like ants and found 25 or stacked like cordwood a couple week later...

And true story...that Brigade Commander was played in a Korean War movie once by Gregory Peck....Pork Chop Hill

by **Orenthal** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:28 pm

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/147861-obama-warns-libyan-leaders-green-lights-15m-more-in-humanitarian-aid

Maybe Obama could pick a side. He is about 2 weeks late from what I thought was the correct action. Imagine if Bush waited this long. How many reporters would be asking him to, "admit mistakes."

No Holds Barred

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