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The Baron Davis Phenomena

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The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:10 am

It may be justified (shit, it probably is) but for the life of me I can't recall a Cleveland acquisition of an All Star that generated as much acrimony and disdain as the trade for Baron Davis.

I'm one of the people full of doubt and general disdain for the way the guy goes about things, but has anyone seen anything like this before?

The unprotected pick was the focal point and the timing is all wrong for Davis here in a Cavs uniform, but still....

Does anyone expect a buyout before he suits up? Will he be in street clothes with some injury the rest of the year? Will he dress and run himself out there? What happens with the actual guy they acquired in this deal?
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:14 am

I have no problem with him. Granted I know next to nothing about him.

From the reading i've been doing he's apparently 300lbs, lazy as shit, and a horrible teammate.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:21 am

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have no problem with him. Granted I know next to nothing about him.

From the reading i've been doing he's apparently 300lbs, lazy as shit, and a horrible teammate.


Sounds like they just dealt for Shawn Kemp all over again. But Kemp had some big years for the Cavs. Carried them to a playoff berth.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:22 am

If this trade was for Lindsay Lohan and the unprotected 2011 first rounder, I'd still support it. No clue why there's so much criticism. This is a non-glamour team's only way to build. I don't care how weak the draft is, do people think top 10 picks are just handed out? I can't even remember the last time a pick projected to be this high was traded with no protection. Plus, Baron has one more chance to get a big payday after this contract expires, things have a funny way of working out sometimes. Even if it doesn't work and we need to buy him out, I don't care. We probably need to suck for one more year anyway.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:52 am

Who is being critical for it? Dwyer? ProBasketballtalk? I honestly don't get the downside. If Baron is that big of a problem we can figure it out. We didnt give up anything that would have been useful for the future, we have no use for the cap space, and we get a pick. If Gilbert wants to spend his cash it is his fucking team. It isnt as if he is making moves to save money, he is solely making moves to make the team better regardless of cost. No one can convince me that this deal, in any way, was not one they shouldnt have made. Maybe there was a better deal at the beginning of the year... well whatcha going to do. Gilbert was hard-headed, but he has come around and on his way to making it better.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:28 am

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I have no problem with him. Granted I know next to nothing about him.

From the reading i've been doing he's apparently 300lbs, lazy as shit, and a horrible teammate.


Me too. I didn't think he was too bad until today, when everything I read about him seemed to imply that he's about the worst piece of shit excuse for a human being imaginable.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:22 am

FWIW: those of you that are honking this as a sign that Gilbert is willing to spend money are a bit off base. In the NBA owners that spend are owners that go over the luxury tax to win, when Gilbert does that again it will stand as proof he is spending. For the time being he's just staying under the cap and luxury tax, even if he is paying a bunch of scrubs nothing and Jamo - Baron - Andy all of the cap money.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:30 am

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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby hiko » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:38 am

All I know is that BD is a MUCH better player than Mo.

Locker room cancer, maybe. But that trade isn't about him anyway.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:38 am

peeker643 wrote:It may be justified (shit, it probably is) but for the life of me I can't recall a Cleveland acquisition of an All Star that generated as much acrimony and disdain as the trade for Baron Davis.


I made the mistake of listening to Reghi/Roda on the way home. By the way Reghi was pontificating, you'd anve thought that Davis killed his dog. He was literally screaming at a caller when the caller said that, if Davis gives a shit, he can contribute somewhat. And then Mt Reghi went and malfunctioned like Peter Brady's volcano on the backyard patio.

Compelling radio ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:13 am

e0y2e3 wrote:FWIW: those of you that are honking this as a sign that Gilbert is willing to spend money are a bit off base. In the NBA owners that spend are owners that go over the luxury tax to win, when Gilbert does that again it will stand as proof he is spending. For the time being he's just staying under the cap and luxury tax, even if he is paying a bunch of scrubs nothing and Jamo - Baron - Andy all of the cap money.



That's an awesome site. Had to bookmark that.

He's paying more next year than this year. Four Million or so. So he's willing to spend more money to expedite the rebuild. And dude never got short arms before. Not about money with Gilbert today, yesterday or tomorrow.

But when you gonna post thoughts on the C's-OKC deal as well as whether the two lottery picks in a weak draft can yield players the Cavs will use as a foundation?
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:41 am

e0y2e3 wrote:FWIW: those of you that are honking this as a sign that Gilbert is willing to spend money are a bit off base. In the NBA owners that spend are owners that go over the luxury tax to win, when Gilbert does that again it will stand as proof he is spending. For the time being he's just staying under the cap and luxury tax, even if he is paying a bunch of scrubs nothing and Jamo - Baron - Andy all of the cap money.


There is nothing off base about saying he is willing to spend money. He had to chance to sit on his 12 million or whatever it is and didn't. Just because he didn't go over the luxury tax doesn't make it any less of a move. Just give him credit for putting his money where his mouth is.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby papacass » Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:54 am

Lee:

Herb Kohl is not spending. MJ is not spending. George Shinn spent so little the league took his team away from him.

Gilbert is spending. The above-mentioned guys would have taken one look at Baron's contract and told his GM, "No thanks. Make the most out of the picks you already have."

Gilbert can be an emotional whackjob at times, but the guy isn't afraid to open his wallet. That's one thing you can't take away from him.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:49 am

He's a piss poor shooter for a guy of his status I see him as a higher scoring version of Mo since theire numbers are comparable, but he lacks Mo's threat from the 3. However the man is not what's important it's the pick.

We will be no better with him than we were without him but that doesn't matter a lick right now because we need to be a bag of shit for the next couple of seasons.

So like him or hate him, he changes nothing.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby jb » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:27 pm

peeker643 wrote:It may be justified (shit, it probably is) but for the life of me I can't recall a Cleveland acquisition of an All Star that generated as much acrimony and disdain as the trade for Baron Davis.



It's the Taliban beard.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby Orenthal » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:24 pm

Cleveland loves the beard.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby StewieG » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:47 pm

He's going with #85. As in Ocho Cinco. God help us.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:16 pm

Several things:

1) Gilbert has spent insane money in the past, but he also has owned a team that his been in the top three revenue drawers in tAssociations during most of that time period. It's not that I am calling him cheap, but picking up another contract that is going to roll well under the tax and near the cap doesn't tell me that a BIDNESS man is willing to sell his soul wihtout an asset that made and cost him millions. His previous investments were about keeping his equity, now that is gone. He may or may not spend his way back to profits, but it's too early to make that call, IMO, and pretending like this Davis trade says that he is ain't right. IMO, it's still wait and see re: how Gilbert reacts to an empty house, especially since NBA revenue sharing doesn't touch home ticket sales.

2) Re Perk.... WTF. My mind is blown and it isn't about this year (Ziner is stupid). As long as Shaq and O'Neal can be wheeled out to face the Magic the C's are plenty tough. My lost mind is re: the future. The Big Three ain't gonna live forever and with Perk and Rondo the C's had a nice core to rebuild around. The only two reasonable causes for the trade I can come up with were 1: Perk going insane with his asking price and 2: The Celtics planning to turn the retirement of the Big Three into massive cap space to chase Dewey as Rondo's running mate. This year it hurts them little to none (provided a run of injuries to old guys doesn't occur, but they have lived with that risk for the last forever, why start risk avoidance now?

3) For the first time in awhile I disagree with Dwyer. Cass nailed point A in his piece (First TCF piece I have bothered to read in ages!@$!). Mo would have went to a contender this summer, though the draft issues certainly effect things (as Cass pointed out) and Gilbert should be hung for still owning Jamo. That said, this team should live in the top 15 picks for at least four years. Look at Sacremento. For all the injury and Cousins issues they have, that core still has insane upside and they are going to get to add another top three pick this year. That should be the Cavs over the course of the next few years. No way a young Irving and HB take us out of the lotto next year. Bad draft or not, the more upside players you collect the better while rebuilding.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:18 pm

Oh and yeah, Green's athleticism will help them against the Heat. Peeks wins.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby jb » Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:06 am

Lee, why do you think Kyrie would come out this year after about 6 games played just to sit out a locked out season?
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:05 pm

Irving is supposed to be back for the ACC tourney.

And the NBA has less a chance of missing a full season than the NFL. NBA players always crack and will again before the entire season is cancelled.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby papacass » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:42 pm

In the process of watching Kentucky-Florida, and I'm liking Brandon Knight. He's big, he's quick, he's aggressive and he can shoot it out to near NBA 3PT range.

Knight's chances of coming out are better than Irving's, especially if Knight impresses in the postseason and Irving looks rusty. Knight wouldn't be worth a top five pick, but he could be available for the lower first-rounder, if it falls in the 7-10 range.

Then the question becomes what to do with the higher pick. I'm starting to think Chris Grant should shop that pick around and see what is out there. If it's 1-3, you're probably going to overdraft someone there. Especially if some of the touted freshmen decide to stay in school due to the labor situation.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:44 pm

Right now Knight is looking like a mid first rounder. Tons of talent but just hasn't been good with the ball nor a real PG.

That said I do think you may be onto something with trading a pick, though I would shop the second one, not the top of the draft bad boy.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:24 pm

The 2011-12 Cavs. Start with the team that beat the Knicks last night. Add Baron Davis.

Add Wild Thing.

Add the two backups they got from the Celtics.

Add a top 4 draft pick and probably a 5-10 pick.

Not knowing who the draft picks will be, and not being sure exactly what we have with the Celtics guys or whether Davis will soldier up or be a cancer, will that team be able to compete?
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby swerb » Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:28 pm

Prosecutor wrote:The 2011-12 Cavs. Start with the team that beat the Knicks last night. Add Baron Davis.

Add Wild Thing.

Add the two backups they got from the Celtics.

Add a top 4 draft pick and probably a 5-10 pick.

Not knowing who the draft picks will be, and not being sure exactly what we have with the Celtics guys or whether Davis will soldier up or be a cancer, will that team be able to compete?

No.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby Orenthal » Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:45 pm

Who knows?
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:14 pm

Orenthal wrote:Who knows?


Anyone who watches basketball?
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby daddywags » Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:27 pm

Prosecutor wrote:The 2011-12 Cavs. Start with the team that beat the Knicks last night. Add Baron Davis.

Add Wild Thing.

Add the two backups they got from the Celtics.

Add a top 4 draft pick and probably a 5-10 pick.

Not knowing who the draft picks will be, and not being sure exactly what we have with the Celtics guys or whether Davis will soldier up or be a cancer, will that team be able to compete?


I hope not. We need another top lottery pick in 2012 at least.

As for Gilbert spending money, I'd say three things: 1. He's never been bothered by paying the luxury tax during his time with the team; 2. He just agreed to pay $12 million for a mid-lottery pick (which surprised many NBA execs from what I've read); and 3. He agreed to pick up Rip's corpse and another $18 million for our TPE just to add a protected 2012 pick before Rip decided he'd rather sit on the bench in Detroit than either play in Cleveland or take a buyout. Hard to argue a guy is "cheap" on those facts just because he isn't paying the luxury tax in a season his team wins maybe 15 games.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:39 pm

Honest of fucking gawd do any of you have the bidness sense of a six year old.

I AM NOT CALLING GILBERT CHEAP. GILBERT OWNS A TEAM THAT WAS IN THE TOP THREE REVENUE DRAWS IN THE LEAGUE FOR EVERY YEAR HE PAID THE TAX. IN THE NBA HOME TEAMS KEEP ALL TICKET SALES. GILBERT WAS SITTING ON A CASH COW AND HIS FRANCHISE GAINED $200MM IN EQUITY WHILE HE OWNED IT THANKS TO LBJ AND THE CASH FLOWS. I DO NOT KNOW THAT GILBERT, AFTER TAKING A HUGE EQUITY HIT AND NOT SELLING OUT NEXT YEAR IS GOING TO BE ONE OF THE BIGGEST SPENDERS IN THE NBA. THAT IS A WAIT AND SEE THING. HAD HE TAKEN ON HAMILTON AND BD I WOULD HAVE BELIEVED IT. ASSETS, YIELDS, CASH FLOWS, EQUITY, ETC......... THIS IS ALL A BIDNESS AND HE JUST LOST HIS ASS ON HIS INITIAL INVESTMENT.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby daddywags » Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:54 pm

Don't want to get into a pissing match over it, but you said:

those of you that are honking this as a sign that Gilbert is willing to spend money are a bit off base.


To which, I mentioned that spending $12 million to buy a mid-lottery draft pick is unknown to my knowledge in the NBA and certainly suggests this move is a sign that he's willing to spend money.

You also said:

In the NBA owners that spend are owners that go over the luxury tax to win


To which, I mentioned that Gilbert has been spending over the luxury tax limit to win ever since he's bought the team, until this 15-ish win season.

We can debate whether he really committed to taking on Rip's salary for another pick next year or not, but I've read enough to believe it to be true. We can also debate whether he's certain to be safely under the salary cap in 2011-12, but I suspect he's not even going to come close to being under without some trades this summer.

Sorry for saying you called him "cheap." You specifically said you weren't calling him that - my mistake. Didn't read closely enough.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:54 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Honest of fucking gawd do any of you have the bidness sense of a six year old.

I AM NOT CALLING GILBERT CHEAP. GILBERT OWNS A TEAM THAT WAS IN THE TOP THREE REVENUE DRAWS IN THE LEAGUE FOR EVERY YEAR HE PAID THE TAX. IN THE NBA HOME TEAMS KEEP ALL TICKET SALES. GILBERT WAS SITTING ON A CASH COW AND HIS FRANCHISE GAINED $200MM IN EQUITY WHILE HE OWNED IT THANKS TO LBJ AND THE CASH FLOWS. I DO NOT KNOW THAT GILBERT, AFTER TAKING A HUGE EQUITY HIT AND NOT SELLING OUT NEXT YEAR IS GOING TO BE ONE OF THE BIGGEST SPENDERS IN THE NBA. THAT IS A WAIT AND SEE THING. HAD HE TAKEN ON HAMILTON AND BD I WOULD HAVE BELIEVED IT. ASSETS, YIELDS, CASH FLOWS, EQUITY, ETC......... THIS IS ALL A BIDNESS AND HE JUST LOST HIS ASS ON HIS INITIAL INVESTMENT.


Dude, why do you keep saying Gilbert is cheap? (mooning)

OK, I agree that we will have to wait and see before we truly know Gilbert's true colors. I suppose I tend to assume he's willing to spend whatever it takes, but he is a business man first.

Let me ask you this e0y: You say that "Had he taken on Hamilton and BD I would have believed it." From everything I have read, it seems that he had signed off on adding both (unless I'm mistaken about that). Is there a difference between it actually happening and TMLP's willingness to have it happen? Why isn't his apparent intentions enough evidence for you to be convinced of this one specific thing?
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:04 pm

Straight up - the apparent intentions mean a lot to me (again, spending isn't why I hate him as an owner). That said - heasay runs the roost in sports reporting. As Rich hit up thread........... really?! At this point I am "show me" re sports reporting.

No one actually knows what the timetable and/or intentions of these deals were. Woj knows we had them lined up and that is why he is the best, but he can't give us a minute by minute diary.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby Orenthal » Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:35 pm

leadpipe wrote:
Orenthal wrote:Who knows?


Anyone who watches basketball?


Hey I can't see into the future, but adding Irving and Kanter, and possible using the TPE on a Rip style move... The poster used a subjective compete. No mention of title, for the EC, playoffs. No need for the blast.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:38 pm

SINCERELY, THE KINGS
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:48 pm

daddywags wrote:Don't want to get into a pissing match over it, but you said:

those of you that are honking this as a sign that Gilbert is willing to spend money are a bit off base.


To which, I mentioned that spending $12 million to buy a mid-lottery draft pick is unknown to my knowledge in the NBA and certainly suggests this move is a sign that he's willing to spend money.

You also said:

In the NBA owners that spend are owners that go over the luxury tax to win


To which, I mentioned that Gilbert has been spending over the luxury tax limit to win ever since he's bought the team, until this 15-ish win season.

We can debate whether he really committed to taking on Rip's salary for another pick next year or not, but I've read enough to believe it to be true. We can also debate whether he's certain to be safely under the salary cap in 2011-12, but I suspect he's not even going to come close to being under without some trades this summer.

Sorry for saying you called him "cheap." You specifically said you weren't calling him that - my mistake. Didn't read closely enough.



Honest of gawd what does this post even mean?

Look a the NBA teams salary spectrum. By buying BD all Dolberr did was avoid being in the bottom three spendas. Look at revenues and salaries before you proclaim someone is going "Jame Dolan"

I really think you are special ed. Really.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:11 pm

Orenthal wrote:
leadpipe wrote:
Orenthal wrote:Who knows?


Anyone who watches basketball?


Hey I can't see into the future, but adding Irving and Kanter, and possible using the TPE on a Rip style move... The poster used a subjective compete. No mention of title, for the EC, playoffs. No need for the blast.


Not meant to be a blast.

Look, if Cleveland Ohio becomes the one place where the known talent on that list decides to keep himself in shape and interested, if they wind up with both Irving and Kanter out of a historiacally weak draft, if JJ suddently gains 75 IQ points, and Rip find a time machine well, then we can wonder.

The likely reality is you get Baron being Baron - so much so he's not even on the team, two Celtic discards, Hickson being an athletic dumb guy that's found on bad teams all over the place, an old Rip is another year older and MAYBE one of those two - or MAYBE Kyle Singler. Hell, I'll give us one of those two.

Looking at the likely scenarios, not the miracles, the answer to the question of is the team likely to compete, is a pretty easy no.

Now, if competing means exceeding the 17 win mark, then we're on to something.

As Eo alludes, the Kings have done an awful lot correct in trying to rebuild that squad. The Cavs would be extremely fortunate to garner simliar talent, especially considering this draft - and even then, look where they are. The Cavs aren't competing next year, or in the near future. That's just the reality.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby Orenthal » Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:28 pm

I hate you guys and your reality. There is enough reality in this city. Let me have my dream.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby papacass » Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:53 pm

Next couple of drafts probably aren't going to yield an NBA superstar. NBAdraft.net's 2012 mock draft is projecting Austin Rivers, a 6'-4" combo guard currently in high school, as the first overall pick.

Rivers could have Iverson-level talent, but if you're looking for that dominant big man, or a kick-ass wing scorer with rare size and skill, there doesn't seem to be one on the horizon.

Chris Grant and his scouting staff could do just about everything right over the next couple of years, getting lottery picks and using them on the best available talent, and all the Cavs might really end up with is a roster of serviceable role players. On the fast track to 45 wins.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby jb » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:50 am

e0y2e3 wrote:SINCERELY, THE KINGS



Will they keep the same name in Anaheim?

Belike the old Giants & Browns.
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Re: The Baron Davis Phenomena

Unread postby Triple-S » Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:18 pm

papacass wrote:Next couple of drafts probably aren't going to yield an NBA superstar. NBAdraft.net's 2012 mock draft is projecting Austin Rivers, a 6'-4" combo guard currently in high school, as the first overall pick.

Rivers could have Iverson-level talent, but if you're looking for that dominant big man, or a kick-ass wing scorer with rare size and skill, there doesn't seem to be one on the horizon.


Rivers is Doc's boy.

would be amusing to see him dressed in wine and gold going against his old man.
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