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tired twoa/nba business rant

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tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby jonne99 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:57 pm

Apologies, i know we've been over this this has been on my mind since I heard about the carmelo trade.

I don't get how other teams are able to at least acquire talent through picks and players when they lose a star. With KG, carmelo, and the like, they demanded trades early enough in the year before they were to become a free agent, giving the team that they were leaving ample time to work out a deal. I'm aware of the specifics as to why we weren't able to do that. We got a goddamn trade exception and CONDITIONAL picks. So either way we need a ton of luck to parlay that into useful pieces, since Miami's draft picks will either be in the mid 20s or if disaster strikes, in the lottery (in which case the picks go back to miami).
Also, the only players with guaranteed contracts on the heat were chalmers, and beasley (correct me if i'm wrong). So twoa picked the team that could send us the LEAST amount of compensation in return. Learned it from the Booze.

I guess it doesn't make any sense from a business perspective, as to why a multi-billion dollar corporation wouldn't want to have some type of parity of its teams in all regions of the country. Think of how many people in cities without a basketball team would tune in if a nearby team from a contiguous region/state was doing well?
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Spin » Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:18 pm

The whole NBA situation has me completely turned off. Starting with the three Amigos in Miami, now Melo choosing who he wants traded to. Wjat we're going to have (if we don't already) is 4 or 5 superteams, and the mid-level markets and small markets are going to suck.

Just like baseball, we're going to develope talent for the mega teams. Except in baseball, a team can put together a pretty good run and win it all. In basketball, not a chance. You either have several all-stars, or you suck.

If only I could wrap my hands around the Blue Jackets...
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby swerb » Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:45 pm

I am praying for a lockout. Literally, praying at night.

The NBA model is broken. David Stern is too smart not to know it.

The players are brokering these deals, and the system can't stop it. Wade/LeFuckface/Bosh in Miami. Now Amare/Melo/Chris Paul will be in New York.

Will be another trio somewhere else in '12-'13. These guys know they gotta do it to have a chance at a sausage, especially if they're gonna come out of the East.

Cities like Cleveland have no hope, other than to pull off the Oklahoma City, 3 great drafts in a row miracle.

Making matters worse is the fact that the ticket pricing structure eliminates Joe Fan. Just too expensive to go to games. Especially when your team has no hope of winning a title.

Major changes need made.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Tue Feb 22, 2011 7:28 pm

Stern created the modern Association by creating amazing dynasties while still keeping hope alive for smaller markets. And for the last thirty years, goshdarn if it didn't work. Now, however, the players are gaming the system, thinking that they can build winning teams just like they did in NBA Live. Meanwhile there are higher profile owners joining the Association who are getting miffed when they can't spend their way to a dynasty like their NFL and MLB counterparts. And Stern's too wedded to the past and losing control of his own ownership, hell last year Bob Sarver's asking him to leave the negotiations to the owners. Now its turning out he can't keep Isaiah Thomas from continuing to fuck up the Knicks. All in all its a holy mess, and I absolutely can't wait to see how this thing explodes this summer. It'll be better than any Hollywood blockbuster.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby swerb » Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:26 am

"It's like dating a woman who hates you so much she will never break up with you, even if you burn down the house every single autumn." ~ Chuck Klosterman on Browns fans relationship with the Browns

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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby YahooFanChicago » Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:41 am

I obviously have no inside information but I think this shit get's fixed-up this year with a lock-out. Owners have too big of a stake in this and too big of ego's to let these 20 something players run the league and destroy it.

The owners have the most coin and the players association will be too easily fractured. There's only a handful of superstars so that's how you divide and conquer the players association. Split-up the superstar "haves" from the non super-star "have not's". Get them fighting against each other. The non superstars won't have the financial resources or career length to survive a lock-out for long. They have expensive lifestyles and will cave easily.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby r22weiss » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:00 pm

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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Spin » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:08 pm

Two very good articles.

Hopefully someone with power (and balls) reads them too...
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:12 pm

Meanwhile, Simmons wrote an article with Worldwide's hand so far up his ass you'd think he'd start singing "Its Not Easy Being Green." Ugh.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:31 pm

swerb wrote:http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=6150136

Rack Rick Reilly


Yeah, I read that. It's the first thing that Reilly's crapped out in a while that I've been able to get through. He's spot on there.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:57 pm

Meanwhile, Simmons wrote an article with Worldwide's hand so far up his ass you'd think he'd start singing "Its Not Easy Being Green." Ugh.


Here was the section:

What a lazy argument. Over the past six decades, the following players pushed their way from a worse situation to a (seemingly) better one either by trade or free agency: Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, Shaquille O'Neal, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Moses Malone, Rick Barry, Charles Barkley, Scottie Pippen, Bill Walton, Kevin Garnett, Allen Iverson, Gary Payton, Ray Allen, Jason Kidd, Clyde Drexler ... should I keep going? Now this "phenomenon" is endangering the game???

As Kenny Smith said last night, "If [a small-market team] builds the right pieces around the right guy, he will stay." Period. Duncan stayed in San Antonio because it built the right team around him. Stockton and Malone stayed in Utah because they had each other. Durant will stay in Oklahoma City because of Westbrook and everyone else. LeBron left Cleveland mainly because it made bad trades and signed the wrong guys. And Utah never would have thought it might lose Deron Williams if it hadn't screwed up the roster around him. Besides, why is it such a bad thing to have six or seven loaded teams and six or seven terrible ones? Oh crap, I hate seeing the Finals with all these elite players! Give me a break.


Just awful, he's glossing over the fact that these guys are COLLUDING to end up in coastal cities, the league's loosey goosey salary cap lets it happen, and several franchises are being held hostage simply because of where they're located. Bringing out examples from a completely different era (which were probably more like respectful requests anyway and usually took place after much longer periods of time, even in the case of KG just 3 years ago) is a joke.

Then he brings out the Tim Duncan argument as his great equalizer when Tim Duncan is one of the highest character athletes in the past 20 years and a huge exception in today's NBA. Knowing what we know now, I'm willing to bet a Morton's dinner that LeDick was out of here regardless of how good our supporting cast was, same for Carmelo in Denver and Williams in Utah (both of which actually assembled a pretty solid supporting cast). I wanted to yell at my computer screen. Simmons is usually one of my favorites but the way he consistently strokes the big glamour markets is sickening ("Full disclosure: I don't care about The Decision anymore"). His beloved Celtics are one of the beneficiaries so it's a pretty convenient argument for him.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:09 pm

That and the part where he couldn't gush over Melo enough also had me clicking off the page. I get that he's a phenomenal talent that can put buckets of points on the board, but, uh, there's a reason a lot of people are 'show me' when it comes to him and the postseason.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby jb » Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:55 pm




Fantastic piece by Whitlock.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:20 pm

When you cats are reading Whitlock and Rilley you might as well just hang yourselves.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:23 pm

Oh but hey.... you guys can hate on the NBA for sucking (even though this really is not that new of a phenomena re: stars winning titles together and the midwest not mattering) but you guys can keep cheering for the sport that makes more money than it knows what to do with because every stupid fucking American plays fantasy football going into a labor outage.

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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Triple-S » Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:41 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Oh but hey.... you guys can hate on the NBA for sucking (even though this really is not that new of a phenomena re: stars winning titles together and the midwest not mattering) but you guys can keep cheering for the sport that makes more money than it knows what to do with because every stupid fucking American plays fantasy football going into a labor outage.

WAR: CHOSEN HYPOCRISY!!@#$!!


so you're arguing for the status quo?

interesting. let me hear more.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:56 pm

Nope, every sport out there is fucked up.

Problem is the NFL is just as shitty as the NBA on the shit scale. Each has their positives and negatives, but in Cleveland people just shrug off the NFL problems (like the product sucking ass cobbler right now while still fighting over money) and focus on the NBA because LeBitch fucked their assholes.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Triple-S » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:01 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Nope, every sport out there is fucked up.

Problem is the NFL is just as shitty as the NBA on the shit scale. Each has their positives and negatives, but in Cleveland people just shrug off the NFL problems (like the product sucking ass cobbler right now while still fighting over money) and focus on the NBA because LeBitch fucked their assholes.


much how during the 90's we all seemed to ignore the problems associated with baseball due to the Tribe being on a run?
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:14 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Nope, every sport out there is fucked up.

Agreed. To one extent or another this can't be argued IMO.

Problem is the NFL is just as shitty as the NBA on the shit scale. Each has their positives and negatives, but in Cleveland people just shrug off the NFL problems (like the product sucking ass cobbler right now while still fighting over money) and focus on the NBA because LeBitch fucked their assholes.

It's not that so much as it is this IS, WAS and always WILL BE a Browns town. There's just no way around it. Gun to people's head (or maybe even a a good throwing stone) people would choose Browns 80/100 times you asked if only one team could stay which would it be. Indians would get 15 and Cavs 5. I dunno if it's a racial thing, a football thing, a human nature thing or what.

It just is and always has been here.

We danced our dance over the James thing last summer. I freely admit to being menopausal at the time though I still believe some of that geo-centrism accounts for it. I lied back then when I said I wouldn't watch anymore. I have watched more than in years past and mostly teams other than the Cavs.

I can't help it. I love the athleticism and the skill these guys bring. I hate the off the court shit with a passion. And again, maybe that's racism, ageism or whatever but it bothers me.

But to be honest, if the Cavs go the Cavs go. I'd still watch great players play great players. I can't help myself. I fucking watch UEFA Soccer and Serie A soccer to see the very best play the very best. I love watching the very best at their profession go head to head. It's compelling and it's skillful.

I'm not sure I'd care if they rolled up 20 franchises and the Cavs were one. They're unwatchable and uninteresting now and have been for the majority of their existence.

Just the way it is. I'd see no less great basketball if they were gone given I can't afford to take a family of five down there as it is now.

So what's the difference? I can't go down there and they're an unwatchable option on TV for now and the near future.

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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby jb » Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:07 am

e0y2e3 wrote:Oh but hey.... you guys can hate on the NBA for sucking (even though this really is not that new of a phenomena re: stars winning titles together and the midwest not mattering) but you guys can keep cheering for the sport that makes more money than it knows what to do with because every stupid fucking American plays fantasy football going into a labor outage.

WAR: CHOSEN HYPOCRISY!!@#$!!



It is on the verge of spinning out of control and the owners are doing what they need to do to keep it working as the most fan centric traditional sports experience..

You are just reinforcing why the NFL owners are brilliant and the NBA owners are stupid sheep. The NBA market share is retreating into the Democratic electorate of Mike Dukakis.
Last edited by jb on Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby jb » Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:08 am

e0y2e3 wrote:Nope, every sport out there is fucked up.



I'll buy that.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:59 am

NBA market share has been ticking upward every year since 2003.

Highest TV numbers since Jordan for the regular season and the playoffs last year too.

If Fantasy Basketball were as popular as Fantasy Football the NBA would have a shot at becoming an unbeatable king like football.

Now if you'll excuse me, time to prep for some Saturday morning Lax on ESPNU.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:08 pm

Oh and Peeks, word. Nothing I can argue with there except that the NFL also gets a free pass by most of the rest of the country. League is nowhere near as interesting right now as it was 15 years ago yet every single year all time TV ratings get crushed because people are stupid. No reason to improve the product either with the way dumbfucks flock to it.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby swerb » Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:12 pm

A lot of good points in this thread on both sides. And I do agree with e0y2e3 ... show me a person who is only a NFL fan (and not a close fan of other sports), and nine times out of ten you will show me a moron. Football does get a free pass in a lot of respects. Gambling, fantasy football, a smart commissioner, and a brilliant marketing machine have made the sport the undisputed and unbeatable king of sports here in America.

Add all that to the perfect model they have - where each team gets 1/32 of the massive amount of TV money and merchandise revenues, and even the shitty teams sell out their 8 home games ... and the whole fucking sport is rolling in dough. It's why there is absolutely no chance of a stoppage. All those fuckers have to figure out is how to split up the loot. It will happen last second (as almost all negotiations where a labor stoppage is possible), but there will be no stoppage. Football's financial model is perfect.

Basketball's is not. Yes, ratings are up. Yes, the league is filled with as many interesting stars as it has since the first Dream Team. But the TV money isn't close to what it is in the NFL. And teams have 45 home games and not 10. Thus, putting asses in seats is much more important.

And that's where the NBA model is breaking. At the end of the day, it's mostly older white people with money going to see young black players. After the Artest scrap, Stern realized he was on the cusp of losing his customer base, and responded brilliantly.

Now with this bull shit of players jack-knifing the system to all join forces in preferred locations, he is at another crossroads. Most teams are making no money. The players continue to care less and less about their paying customers, fans like Peeker and I continue to feel even more out of touch with them. Fans in all but 7-8 markets are becoming continually more disenfranchised with the NBA as each LeBron, Bosh, and Melo force their way to places like MIA and NY, destroying the franchises they flee from in the process.

Its a major fucking problem. No matter how bad Bill Simmons or others are in denial about it.

It doesn't need a band-aid. It needs an orthopedic cast.

The old guard of the owners, the guys that feed Wojanarwski all the info for his columns ... these guys are gonna draw the line in the sand here. Cause they can. They and Stern, a brilliant commissioner, got all the power here and know it. You know Stern wanted to go crazy after it was exposed that LeBron/Bosh/Wade have been scheming their little Miami circle jerk since the Olympics. He's smart ... he said nothing. Knew he'd have his shot this summer.

Bottom line - owners aren't really making money right now in most cities. The players are.

Owners have the leverage. Some owners would be financially better off in a lockout.

Billy Hunter and the players are about to take it in the ass. Or be locked out for a long time.

And I am going to revel in every second of it.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Spin » Sat Feb 26, 2011 1:41 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:When you cats are reading Whitlock and Rilley you might as well just hang yourselves.


We don't need these guys to tell us what we already realize. We brought this up before those links were added. They just back it up.

Oh but hey.... you guys can hate on the NBA for sucking (even though this really is not that new of a phenomena re: stars winning titles together and the midwest not mattering) but you guys can keep cheering for the sport that makes more money than it knows what to do with because every stupid fucking American plays fantasy football going into a labor outage.


How do you figure? Because NFL superstars all decide on what major market or party city they are going to join together and play in?

I don't remember Brady, Jennings, Wayne, and Witten headed for South Beach to try to rekindle Air Coryell and win a title. I don't see Aaron Rogers getting felt up by the Jets and Giants before deciding which team he'll allow the Packers to trade him to.

I do seem to remember 12 different teams making the Super Bowl, including four from the midwest, and six from mid-small markets (outside the top ten) in the past ten years.

I see the NBA ratings dropping every year, regular season 5.0 to 2.2 since 1996, and the finals 22.3 to 10.4 since 1998. All star game 14.3 to 4.2 since 1993.

Oh, and the NFL was by far the most popular sport in the US long before fantasy football was a wet dream.

So if you buy into this Euro-style elitist only-the-richest-can-win system, have fun with that. That's not our problem. Just accept you are in the minority.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:31 pm

A ton of thoughts. Nice post Rich.

Here is where I am in a roundabout way. I prefer the soft cap system of the NBA where dynasties and heroes and villains can be made. Sports are a novel to me and drama, protagonists and antagonists should be center stage. In the current NFL you have a talent deficiency compared to previous decades and the hard cap makes it this communist "which watered down team can win this year!!!" crap. It bothers me to see a deflated product carrying the American bandwagon because of those purely NFL fans Rich mentioned.

The NBA's ability has been centered around finding a superstar and building around them for ages and it has worked. Sure you can have Penny dying in Orlando and Shaq thusly leaving, but for the most part none of us can complain about the general rule of teams that draft legit stud top of the world players (Melo isn't one) failing to compete and or build around them.

Frankly, had LBJ not been a cocksucker fuck and spent 1/8th of the effort recruiting players to his hometown that he did in Miami this conversation would not even have occurred. For as much as I fault Gilbert he did give LBJ a blank check and LBJ (while I fully believe he should have been bitch slapped early on instead of given a blank check) said fuck you I'm pussing out. That said, LBJ and Wade are the only example of HOFers teaming up in today's NBA. As Simmons apparently points out (I should have included him with Whitlock and Reilly, as none are readable anymore) this isn't some unprecedented event. Cleveland just ended up with The Whore of Akron instead of TD, Kobe, Wade or Durant (none of whom would have left).

Where some of you miss the point re: franchises failing to break even is that the NBA has far weaker revenue sharing than the NFL (this is why the Jags still exist). The NBA revenue sharing is just TV and Merchandise, the NFL gives visitors 1/3 of tickets shares and a small percentage to the league. This is why bad teams are fucked financially (or good teams in Atlanta).

Another place that many of you miss the pont re: the NBA is that they have HUGE seeds laid with Gen Y and overseas. The NBA has a growing and passionate fan-base that is youthful or untapped and that will keep the market share ticking upward. The NFL has the 30 year old whore that works in the cube outside of your office because she can draft Aaron Rogers in the office fantasy league. Frankly this water down NFL is the biggest example of the 90/10 rule I have ever seen (which is what Rich was inferring up thread).

Lastly, why I think the NFL is more likely than the NBA to have a prolonged labor outage is because the NFL owners have that 1B dollar guaranteed TV contract from DirectTV, lockout or no lockout. They have no reason to back down one iota and they have a far stronger union than the NBA. The NBA union has never ever ever ever held there shit together when checks stopped coming in and I doubt that starts now.

As for you Spin, you're a communist. Good for you. This is America, the best run and best business models should be rewarded. While I don't think it should ever be allowed to go to the heights baseball has taken it I do think that a middle ground between this evening of the field at the expense of the product that the NFL embraces and the only the rich get richer of the MLB needs to be balanced. I get that you now think the NBA is the MLB because Melo (a career meh guy thus far with nothing more than a beautiful game on O) forced his way back home to NY because Amare saved a shit franchise and LBJ was a once in a lifetime toolbox, but you are wrong.

PS: the Knicks have no tradable assets and no cap space. How do they get Paul? Who, BTW, is the one superstar I can't blame for bailing considering that he cares more about winning than anyone not named Kobe and has spent his entire career thus far playing under George Fucking Shinn. Honestly, Paul would play in anchorage for Hitler to win games and his career being spent in the manor that it has been thus far is a tragedy. That said, all reports are that he loves the new management team, so we shall see.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:41 pm

Oh and my NBA solution is three things:

1) more balanced revenue sharing

2) a franchise tag (though I love how all of you pretend that NFL players haven't been franchised and forced their way to another team 1000x.

3) contraction, including the Cavs.

The rest stays as is.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:23 pm

The NFL is a stupid pile of shit that rubes follow like it's some kind of messiah. Christ..... People clucking about the draft when there isn't even going to be a fucking season. Can't wait to see who the Browns draft, it'll be really awesome to not see them play next year.

It's a giant money sucking whore that fleeces fans out of billions of dollars and then just cannot figure out how to split it "fairly". And Goodell is a clownshoe.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Triple-S » Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:37 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Oh and my NBA solution is three things:

1) more balanced revenue sharing

2) a franchise tag (though I love how all of you pretend that NFL players haven't been franchised and forced their way to another team 1000x.

3) contraction, including the Cavs.


I think a franchise tag could work quite well in the NBA, at the very least if twoa would have pulled that stunt, the Cavs could have been compensated better than being tossed a few draft picks several years down the road.

Who would you watch in the NBA minus the Cavs? OKC or Celts?
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Orenthal » Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:54 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Oh and my NBA solution is three things:

1) more balanced revenue sharing

2) a franchise tag (though I love how all of you pretend that NFL players haven't been franchised and forced their way to another team 1000x.

3) contraction, including the Cavs.

The rest stays as is.


Fuck you. :thumb up:
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:02 pm

The difference between the NFL and the NBA is pretty cut & dry, and rather simple.

First football is the superior game, EOS. It requires not only great talent but legit coaching and strategy. Bad coaches rarely win and neither do shitty players, despite degree of turnover in the winner's cricle. Second, despite the NFL having socialistic polymer in its DNA, its players do not run the asylum. The NBA right now is out of control and specific players are calling the shots, which is fine for their respective personal careers/destinations but it is not good for the league itself nor its long term integrity, if it has much left. Plus the NBA outcome is much more dependent on one specific formula or approach, having the stud(s) to win it all (not totally the fault of the NBA b/c it's an inherent property of basketball with only 5 guys on the floor at once). The NFL has a much better balance in its recipe of players/coach/XsOs. NFL : NBA :: chess : tic tac toe.

While I do agree that the hero villain aspect is big for sports in many cases, I think the NBA angle on it is highly over rated. They are much too dependent on the few big markets to be good AND be at war with each other on the court (in a heads up manner IE Bos. v La.), while nice for most fans, there is nothing natural about it nor anything at a deeper level for the fans of the respective teams. While NFL rivalries also need the said teams to be better than they are worse the rivalries are tied into the fans so much more, on a regional and personal level. I'm sorry but while Bos/LA is a good NBA rivalry but their fans have zip in common and only their bball egos get mad at each other, there is nothing really at stake nor lingering once those players of age move on from that era. Now we have to deal with NY/Chi/Heat as rivals again, way too contrived. Sorry but the Giants/Pats v. the Raidahs/9ers just doesn't work in the NFL, nor should it, and thank god the NFL doesn't need it to. The rivalries make way more sense and have something at stake for the fans in the NFL.

The NBA had some nice player rivalries but most of that was back in the day, with obviously the most notorious Bird v Magic. But that hasn't continued with anywhere near the significance or intensity in a long time, hell Jordan v. the Pistons/Knicks/Heat was probably the most recent meaningful long term rivalry in the association outside of maybe a few meaningless Kobe ones. A lot of that falls on the players edges or lack thereof (again not totally the fault of the league itself).

I also agree the NFL gets a pass on its faults more than the NBA, but again that is b/c it is the better sport/league. The one fault of the NBA that doesn't get near enough criticism (that ties in with some of the above) is the NBA playoffs. While I love watching the action, compared to the NFL playoffs the NBA post season is set up in a way to make sure the better teams move on as far as they can. If there is one sport in which you can pencil in the final 4 or 2 early on it is the NBA.

...and Jalen Rose's comments on the current state of the NBA couldn't have missed the point more. You should call a time out Jalen.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Orenthal » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:03 pm

Read the longer e0 post and agree with most of it. Especially keeping the soft cap exceptions. This rewards teams for drafting well more then anything. Why should you have to cut great talent you drafted just because they should be paid accordingly? That plus a franchise tag, which severly limits but doesn't 100% stop LBJ douche'ness. Seems to be the solution.

How one can stomach the NFL salary cap science is beyond me. Guys signing deals that you know will never be fufilled and mindless cuts to get to a #. Eh, no flow to that drama.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby peeker643 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:49 pm

FUDU wrote:The difference between the NFL and the NBA is pretty cut & dry, and rather simple.

First football is the superior game, EOS. It requires not only great talent but legit coaching and strategy.


You really ought to throw in a 'IMO' or at least account for the subjectivity of that statement.

There are literally countries and continents that have simply ignored the NFL despite having born witness to all its glory and greatness. They prefer futbol and basketball and it ain't even close.

Football > Basketball for me too. But not even I'm arrogant enough to dismiss everything else and the world's two most popular sports BY FAR with a comment like that.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:25 pm

Yes FUDU, you're right, the NFL is the king because of how much more thought goes into the sport and because bad teams can win the title/make the SB (this is your playoff argument, right?)

The NFL running the world is simple:

1) no time commitment, 16 Sundays a year and maybe the playoffs. One day a week and easy accessibility for ever retard that watched all three American Idol shows the prior week. The general public isn't sports crazy and they are the ones that make up the market, not asshats like you who go on message board proclaiming the great strategic advantages of the Steelers D over the Celtics system.

2) Fantasy football has DIRECTLY coincided with football's rise from king but not lord to "holy fuck a shit ass game between the Vikings and Saints just became the third most watched television event ever!@$!!" Fantasy football is simple for the most part, easily accessible and lets fans feel intimate connections to illiterate trailer trash like Chris Johnson. Why do you think ESPN covered Farve for 90 straight months? Every time he took the field on national TV another ratings record was broken. Gawd love a good-ole boy QB who everyone can relate to while talking about his penis!

3) Gambling. 16 game season, every game is life or death and easy to understand spreads rule the roost.

4) Bandwagon effect. It's culturally required to watch football on Sundays. If you don't you aren't American and you have nothing to talk to asshat from the suburbs about in the office M-F. Just because most working Americans have an IQ of 60 doesn't mean you can't find something in common!

5) Communism. "We'll water down the product so you can have hope ever single year damnit!!! Why should teams be allowed to hold a dynasty, it's bad for BIDNESS!!@$!" Yes I understand the Pats are the exception, I also understand that this years Pats team had no business being the favorites heading into the playoffs, but a reasonably sound system can win in a league where the talent is spread about with a butter knife.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:36 pm

Triple-S wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Oh and my NBA solution is three things:

1) more balanced revenue sharing

2) a franchise tag (though I love how all of you pretend that NFL players haven't been franchised and forced their way to another team 1000x.

3) contraction, including the Cavs.


I think a franchise tag could work quite well in the NBA, at the very least if twoa would have pulled that stunt, the Cavs could have been compensated better than being tossed a few draft picks several years down the road.

Who would you watch in the NBA minus the Cavs? OKC or Celts?


The best athletes in the world competing every day for six months. Fuck the teams. Though I will say, not having to hate the C's this year has made watching them a pleasure. Not a fan myself but if you can't enjoy watching those vets and Rondo play the game against these star loaded teams you don't get sports.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:42 pm

Very good debate here but I think it's a bit of a stretch to call the NFL a crappy product. Salary cap rules have given the NFL the consistency of roulette and I'd agree that the mid 90's Niners-Cowboys days were more interesting come January. However, I wouldn't say that parity has resulted in poorly played games. You still have 5-6 star QB's, 10 more solid ones, 7-8 ace defenses from year to year, and a deep talent base where late round picks matter. And even to the extent that parity has damaged the quality of the game, more close games, more hope for every team, and the urgency of a 16 game schedule pick up the slack.

Eoy2e3 isn't wrong when he says that fantasy football and the TV deal give the NFL an obscene advantage (I'd also throw the once-a-week and short season dynamics in there) but facts are facts. The NBA has to do what's necessary to make itself interesting day to day in all of its markets over the course of an 82 game grind. Having 2/3 of the teams be hopeless isn't the way to accomplish that. I know that isn't anything new in the NBA but at least in the past, team fortunes were mostly determined by poor management rather than geography/player collusion. Baseball has a similar problem but unfortunately for the NBA, you can't sit outdoors in July drinking a cold beer to watch one of its games, not to mention the big difference in ticket prices.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:50 pm

See the NFL playoffs this year. Name me one epic game that was well played Kingpin? The NFL playoffs have become one of several things.

1) Who has the elite QB

2) Which team is going to play shittier re: turning the ball over and committing penalties

3) Which bad team is going to have some scrub have a career day and win the game for them (see this years Seahawks Saints game).

The talent is down on the whole, which is why the QBs rule the roost right now.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Feb 26, 2011 6:58 pm

peeker643 wrote:
FUDU wrote:The difference between the NFL and the NBA is pretty cut & dry, and rather simple.

First football is the superior game, EOS. It requires not only great talent but legit coaching and strategy.


You really ought to throw in a 'IMO' or at least account for the subjectivity of that statement.

There are literally countries and continents that have simply ignored the NFL despite having born witness to all its glory and greatness. They prefer futbol and basketball and it ain't even close.

Football > Basketball for me too. But not even I'm arrogant enough to dismiss everything else and the world's two most popular sports BY FAR with a comment like that.

I kind of figured it was assumed I was just referring to our tastes here in the states (besides that fact that half the rest of the world isn't big enough to even try to play our brand of football), that and I really don't give 2 fucks about what the rest of the world likes, something else I assumed you already knew. See also Libya thread.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:02 pm

Yes FUDU, their athletes aren't big enough to compete in the NFL but they are big and athletic enough to compete in the NBA against the best athletes America has to offer.

That's why they don't follow football!
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:05 pm

See the NFL playoffs this year. Name me one epic game that was well played Kingpin? The NFL playoffs have become one of several things.

1) Who has the elite QB

2) Which team is going to play shittier re: turning the ball over and committing penalties

3) Which bad team is going to have some scrub have a career day and win the game for them (see this years Seahawks Saints game).

The talent is down on the whole, which is why the QBs rule the roost right now.


I can't argue with you on the playoffs, they suck compared to the 90's (although Colts-Jets was a pretty exciting game this year). I guess it's just personal preference, I think a more relevant regular season for more teams makes up for it. Maybe it's because I'm a Tampa Bay Bucs fan and we've had two meaningful Januarys in the past 30 years.

I have to disagree on the overall talent base being down though. I think if you took a snapshot of the 5-10 best at each position in 2011, 2000, 1990, and 1980 they would look relatively similar. Are you making the same argument for today's college game as well? I understand your point on more randoms being thrust into action but I think that can be attributed more to the evolution the athlete and the increased injuries it causes. And personally, I like how much the #30-#53 spots on the roster end up mattering. It ups the stakes for how the teams are run. Finally, QB's do rule the roost but is that really anything new? If you go back through the Super Bowl champs it's always been a QB league. If anything, an Eli Manning wouldn't have had a prayer at a Super Bowl in 1985 without an epically good defense.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Spin » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:15 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:As for you Spin, you're a communist. Good for you. This is America, the best run and best business models should be rewarded. While I don't think it should ever be allowed to go to the heights baseball has taken it I do think that a middle ground between this evening of the field at the expense of the product that the NFL embraces and the only the rich get richer of the MLB needs to be balanced. I get that you now think the NBA is the MLB because Melo (a career meh guy thus far with nothing more than a beautiful game on O) forced his way back home to NY because Amare saved a shit franchise and LBJ was a once in a lifetime toolbox, but you are wrong.


LOL so you call me a political name, to explain an economic system, to talk about an entertainment medium.

Reread the last two words in that sentence. ENTERTAINMENT MEDIUM.

What's so entertaining about watching a team that got raped of all its talent, and with the current climate will suck from now on? Because that's what we have in baseball and basketball. You build through youth, catch lightning in a bottle once in 30 years, and make a run at the teams with more RADIO REVENUE than your entire budget. LeBron is just the latest to have fled for big city dollars, he's just the most recent, and the only one to fuck up the team before he left. We didn't even get a reacharound, like when other FA's book.

So you think it's impossible to build a dynasty in the NFL with revenue sharing and a hard cap. Ever hear about the New England Patriots? How about the small market Pittsburgh Steelers? They do it the right way, they out think and out work everybody else. They aren't just gifted a dynasty because they have a market size TEN TIMES bigger than Cleveland's. Or because they are located in a tropical fantasyland.

Having more than 4 teams capable of winning, that's entertainment. Knowing that your team could build the next dynasty with the right people in place gives you a reason to give a shit about the sport. Baseball? Basketball? Not so much.

And I know all about who the NBA is targeting with their culturization. It's the people (not a whole generation) who look out for themselves first, don't give a shit what the coach says, expects to be an icon MJ without putting in the work. Me me me. And if you do do it the way I tell you, and I'm wrong, I'm outta here and you're fucked. Who the hell wants to be in Ohio or Ontario or Colorado in the winter time? We're gonna fix that shit. Shiiiiiaaaaah, we call the shotz.

That's not entertainment. That's thuggery. It's not even good basketball. And I don't have to watch it. Judging from the ratings, the "target audience" aint watching either. You say it's going to blow up globally. You better hope so, I know a hell of a lot of Americans in the "target demographic", the 16-34 year old male with disposable income. 95% of them say football is their favorite sport.

The NFL is big because of fantasy football. :lmfao: I think you have that backward...

Sorry, gotta go check my fantasy basketball and fantasy hockey teams, before I head to a college basketball game.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:19 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Yes FUDU, you're right, the NFL is the king because of how much more thought goes into the sport and because bad teams can win the title/make the SB (this is your playoff argument, right?)

The NFL running the world is simple:

1) no time commitment, 16 Sundays a year and maybe the playoffs. One day a week and easy accessibility for ever retard that watched all three American Idol shows the prior week. The general public isn't sports crazy and they are the ones that make up the market, not asshats like you who go on message board proclaiming the great strategic advantages of the Steelers D over the Celtics system.

2) Fantasy football has DIRECTLY coincided with football's rise from king but not lord to "holy fuck a shit ass game between the Vikings and Saints just became the third most watched television event ever!@$!!" Fantasy football is simple for the most part, easily accessible and lets fans feel intimate connections to illiterate trailer trash like Chris Johnson. Why do you think ESPN covered Farve for 90 straight months? Every time he took the field on national TV another ratings record was broken. Gawd love a good-ole boy QB who everyone can relate to while talking about his penis!

3) Gambling. 16 game season, every game is life or death and easy to understand spreads rule the roost.

4) Bandwagon effect. It's culturally required to watch football on Sundays. If you don't you aren't American and you have nothing to talk to asshat from the suburbs about in the office M-F. Just because most working Americans have an IQ of 60 doesn't mean you can't find something in common!

5) Communism. "We'll water down the product so you can have hope ever single year damnit!!! Why should teams be allowed to hold a dynasty, it's bad for BIDNESS!!@$!" Yes I understand the Pats are the exception, I also understand that this years Pats team had no business being the favorites heading into the playoffs, but a reasonably sound system can win in a league where the talent is spread about with a butter knife.

My point about the playoffs isn't about bad teams, b/c bad teams don't make the playoffs in the NFL but once every 15 years. The NBA only requires a team fill out a form to get a post season spot, for fuck's sake 54% of the league gets in. The point was that the best teams or the consensus "heavy favorites" don't win it all all that often or have the system help ensure they make it as far as possible (b/c the league doesn't need that outcome to rule the roost). The NFL post season format is flawed mind you.

The general public comment was a nice touch though. Sorry but no matter how hard you try to push the notion the game of basketball is not an intellectual man's game, not even close. Sorry to stomp on your advanced stat ego but it is true, hoops more than any other sport can be analyzed by simple observation with little need for numbers.

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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:20 pm

Sweet fucking geezes, isn't there and Akron U squash game you should be watching right now? Pretty sure it's void of "thuggery."
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:22 pm

War Rex Grossman's Chicago Bears FUDU!!!!

War the Seattle Seahawks!!!

War the Kansas City Chiefs!!!!

War no bad teams but once every fifteen years!!!

For fucks sake, the 2007 Browns should have made the playoffs.

And I'm not even going to touch the NFL being a thinking mans game and the NBA not. That's pretty much the dumbest thing you have ever written and you have a hell of a resume.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:23 pm

Posting this shit faster than I can read it.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby peeker643 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:27 pm

FUDU wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
FUDU wrote:The difference between the NFL and the NBA is pretty cut & dry, and rather simple.

First football is the superior game, EOS. It requires not only great talent but legit coaching and strategy.


You really ought to throw in a 'IMO' or at least account for the subjectivity of that statement.

There are literally countries and continents that have simply ignored the NFL despite having born witness to all its glory and greatness. They prefer futbol and basketball and it ain't even close.

Football > Basketball for me too. But not even I'm arrogant enough to dismiss everything else and the world's two most popular sports BY FAR with a comment like that.

I kind of figured it was assumed I was just referring to our tastes here in the states (besides that fact that half the rest of the world isn't big enough to even try to play our brand of football), that and I really don't give 2 fucks about what the rest of the world likes, something else I assumed you already knew. See also Libya thread.


You have a cold? Like a lot of sinus, cold, decongestant meds? Because you're all over the place. You dismiss the issue with an assumption, an incorrect statement about foreigners size, that you don't give a shit and then lastly with a geo-political blast.

I'd also disagree about the strategy and coaching issues and cite an argument that leaders are leaders and all possess similar leadership skills which are critical in dealing with wealthy athletes moreso than X's and O's are but that hockey and basketball require as much skull session as football does. The number of players differs but so does the number of asst coaches.

Like I said, I'd do that but I like football way more than those other sports myself.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:37 pm

peeker643 wrote:
FUDU wrote:
peeker643 wrote:
FUDU wrote:The difference between the NFL and the NBA is pretty cut & dry, and rather simple.

First football is the superior game, EOS. It requires not only great talent but legit coaching and strategy.


You really ought to throw in a 'IMO' or at least account for the subjectivity of that statement.

There are literally countries and continents that have simply ignored the NFL despite having born witness to all its glory and greatness. They prefer futbol and basketball and it ain't even close.

Football > Basketball for me too. But not even I'm arrogant enough to dismiss everything else and the world's two most popular sports BY FAR with a comment like that.

I kind of figured it was assumed I was just referring to our tastes here in the states (besides that fact that half the rest of the world isn't big enough to even try to play our brand of football), that and I really don't give 2 fucks about what the rest of the world likes, something else I assumed you already knew. See also Libya thread.


You have a cold? Like a lot of sinus, cold, decongestant meds? Because you're all over the place. You dismiss the issue with an assumption, an incorrect statement about foreigners size, that you don't give a shit and then lastly with a geo-political blast.

I'd also disagree about the strategy and coaching issues and cite an argument that leaders are leaders and all possess similar leadership skills which are critical in dealing with wealthy athletes moreso than X's and O's are but that hockey and basketball require as much skull session as football does. The number of players differs but so does the number of asst coaches.

Like I said, I'd do that but I like football way more than those other sports myself.

JFC peek you really gonna ride this train about dismissing what the rest of the world thinks? The NFL is our sport, hence for this discussion about the NFL & NBA yes I am strictly talking about us here in the states. Is that better?

...not even going to give the decency of acknowledging Lee's pathetic attempt to compare hoops strategy/Xs & Os to that of football. I have no problem with somebody wanting to say baseball does, but hoops most certainly does not.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby peeker643 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:10 pm

FUDU wrote:
peeker643 wrote:You have a cold? Like a lot of sinus, cold, decongestant meds? Because you're all over the place. You dismiss the issue with an assumption, an incorrect statement about foreigners size, that you don't give a shit and then lastly with a geo-political blast.

I'd also disagree about the strategy and coaching issues and cite an argument that leaders are leaders and all possess similar leadership skills which are critical in dealing with wealthy athletes moreso than X's and O's are but that hockey and basketball require as much skull session as football does. The number of players differs but so does the number of asst coaches.

Like I said, I'd do that but I like football way more than those other sports myself.

JFC peek you really gonna ride this train about dismissing what the rest of the world thinks? The NFL is our sport, hence for this discussion about the NFL & NBA yes I am strictly talking about us here in the states. Is that better?

...not even going to give the decency of acknowledging Lee's pathetic attempt to compare hoops strategy/Xs & Os to that of football. I have no problem with somebody wanting to say baseball does, but hoops most certainly does not.


You do have a cold or are on meds. Because my last post had nothing to do with the rest of the world.

Given that, I'm not sure what train I was on.

And Joe Torre sleeping in the dugout is about as bad an argument for x's and o's in baseball as any you could ever make. Might wanna tread lightly on the old baseball strategy as trump card.

A guy that throws 98 = a great one on one NBA player = Give the ball to Chris Johnson 40 times.

Get some rest. Spring will be here soon. Your cold and cabin fever-induced surliness will be gone soon.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby FUDU » Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:23 pm

Peeker just a friendly reminder you're the one who brought the global interest angle into this, but FTRat this point I'm assuming you're just completely fucking around bc frankly you've gone bonkers and are in fact all over the place right now.
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Re: tired twoa/nba business rant

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:27 pm

Ah yes - ye old FUDU argument tactic:

"I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I!"



No one can kill a discussion like FUDU, that much I know.
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