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Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby mistero » Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:46 am

My wife works as pharmacy tech. No choice but to join the union and pay dues. How is that even legal in America? The union takes her money (our money) and supports Democrats for office who in turn push pro-union legislation. A big illegal circle jerk.

And teachers?? They work part-time and have the world's greatest beni package. How is that even sustainable? Most schools are run down dumps and the property taxes and levies never stop. How is that fair?
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby exiledbuckeye » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:03 am

Really? Teachers work part time? Tell that to my teacher friends who TEACH 7:30am-2:30 pm, start their work day a half hour before students arrive and stay at least a half hour after they leave, and spend 2-3 hours a night grading papers at home. Sounds like overtime to me.

And my public teacher friends, who make maybe $40K/year, also get about a grand total of $100 for the year to cover classroom supplies. That runs out REAL fast, and parents only contribute so much. The teachers make up the difference out of pocket. I have friends who spend a great deal of their own money helping their students.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby exiledbuckeye » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:11 am

danwismar wrote:But like O said above, those obligations to auto (and other)workers eventually killed the goose that laid the golden egg. (That and Japan)

Seems to me that the emphasis on education is all well and good, but our schools are not turning out the kinds of graduates our companies need and want to hire.


The health care obligations are what killed the auto industry as we know it. And that can be directly related to two things: 1) the astronomical increase in the cost of health care, and 2) advances in health care that allowed people to live longer. These things are related, I know. But promising retirees health benefits for life was a much different proposition when Average Joe lived to be maybe 65 years old.

By the way, there are and have been a hell of a lot of auto workers who worked much harder than screwing in dome lights on an assembly line. Talk to some guys who worked in the engine plants, or the foundry. My dad worked in the foundry at the Brookpark plant for many years, and that was no cakewalk. He eventually moved to the engine plant and ended up tearing both rotator cuffs twice doing his job.

Our schools are turning out unqualified graduates because they have to follow No Child Left Behind and teach to the test. We do not push any of our students to be creative and innovative, or to solve problems. We do not focus on math or science. And we do not recruit the most qualified and brightest college graduates to be teachers because they get paid and treated like garbage, and become the scorn of the public in any belt-tightening times. No wonder the Chinese and India are running circles around us. Only a matter of time before we become irrelevant if we stick to the status quo.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:30 am

motherscratcher wrote:(scored a 5 on the test).


Dude, 5 out of a 100 isn't good.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:37 am

I am not sure what the laws are concerning it, but this whole hiding in another state thing might be the most immature tactic I have ever seen in politics. Seriously, running and hiding... ::doh::
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:42 am

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:
For a long time he worked construction on the weekends. That's also what he did with his summers too, up until he retired. My dad worked hard.


Another reason I hate on teachers.

They get paid a years salary, get half the year off, then go out and undercut bluecollar workers trying to make a living and/or starting a business and call it "their right' to make a living.....hypocrites all...even the good ones

When they start putting in 2000 hrs a year, I'll give a shit about their constant whining and crying


I'm not sure what blue collar worker my dad was undercutting by working for his own father on weekends and summers. And, just because the pay is spread out over a year doesn't mean he's getting paid for time he's not working.

I don't know how much cumulative time he spent exclusively on teaching per year when he did it, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was around 2000 hours.

I don't recall him doing a lot of crying and whining either.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Orenthal » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:49 am

exiledbuckeye wrote:
danwismar wrote:But like O said above, those obligations to auto (and other)workers eventually killed the goose that laid the golden egg. (That and Japan)

Seems to me that the emphasis on education is all well and good, but our schools are not turning out the kinds of graduates our companies need and want to hire.


The health care obligations are what killed the auto industry as we know it. And that can be directly related to two things: 1) the astronomical increase in the cost of health care, and 2) advances in health care that allowed people to live longer. These things are related, I know. But promising retirees health benefits for life was a much different proposition when Average Joe lived to be maybe 65 years old.


The higher hourly rate compared to non-union foriegn companies. More vacation benefits. Higher amount of workers then foriegn competition. What kills unions is when fighting for the working man turns to fighting management. At some point the union elite justify their existence by "gaming" management.

BTW I have no sympathy for weak management. However when you have a powerful Democrat party that will put pressure on you, and tactics that make you seem evil??? It is hard to stand firm.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Orenthal » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:51 am

Ziner wrote:I am not sure what the laws are concerning it, but this whole hiding in another state thing might be the most immature tactic I have ever seen in politics. Seriously, running and hiding... ::doh::


Funny the last two time what party it has been. Bunch of cowards. Had to eat their big gov't shit for years now it gets scaled back and they bail.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby exiledbuckeye » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:56 am

Orenthal wrote:
exiledbuckeye wrote:
danwismar wrote:But like O said above, those obligations to auto (and other)workers eventually killed the goose that laid the golden egg. (That and Japan)

Seems to me that the emphasis on education is all well and good, but our schools are not turning out the kinds of graduates our companies need and want to hire.


The health care obligations are what killed the auto industry as we know it. And that can be directly related to two things: 1) the astronomical increase in the cost of health care, and 2) advances in health care that allowed people to live longer. These things are related, I know. But promising retirees health benefits for life was a much different proposition when Average Joe lived to be maybe 65 years old.


The higher hourly rate compared to non-union foriegn companies. More vacation benefits. Higher amount of workers then foriegn competition. What kills unions is when fighting for the working man turns to fighting management. At some point the union elite justify their existence by "gaming" management.

BTW I have no sympathy for weak management. However when you have a powerful Democrat party that will put pressure on you, and tactics that make you seem evil??? It is hard to stand firm.


You posted the numbers upthread, I think...too lazy to go back and look now. But look at the non-VEBA vs. VEBA #s and you'll see that VEBA put the U.S. auto laborers in the same ballpark as the laborers for foreign automakers. The difference between non-VEBA and VEBA was the retiree health costs.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby mistero » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:01 am

Yes part time. My kids are always off school. Every holiday...off. Spring break, christmas break, summer break, presidents day, teachers blah blah blah day. Every week end off. Every summer off. Off,off,off. Name one profession that has so much time off.
When was the last time a teacher worked 12 hours night shift on christmas? When was last time a teacher missed a Browns game because they had to work.

Grading papers after school, please child. :hic:


And my public teacher friends, who make maybe $40K/year, also get about a grand total of $100 for the year to cover classroom supplies. That runs out REAL fast, and parents only contribute so much. The teachers make up the difference out of pocket. I have friends who spend a great deal of their own money helping their students

I'll tell you how they do it. They give every student a 3 page list of school supplies. Enough for a small orphanage in the Congo. Then they charge a class room supply fee. On top of the taxes and levies we already pay.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Orenthal » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:03 am

^^While they did close the gap its still close to a 20% premium, and relative to the rest of the economy working for a Toyota, Honda, or BMW plant is still great pay.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby exiledbuckeye » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:17 am

mistero wrote:Yes part time. My kids are always off school. Every holiday...off. Spring break, christmas break, summer break, presidents day, teachers blah blah blah day. Every week end off. Every summer off. Off,off,off. Name one profession that has so much time off.
When was the last time a teacher worked 12 hours night shift on christmas? When was last time a teacher missed a Browns game because they had to work.

Grading papers after school, please child. :hic:


And my public teacher friends, who make maybe $40K/year, also get about a grand total of $100 for the year to cover classroom supplies. That runs out REAL fast, and parents only contribute so much. The teachers make up the difference out of pocket. I have friends who spend a great deal of their own money helping their students

I'll tell you how they do it. They give every student a 3 page list of school supplies. Enough for a small orphanage in the Congo. Then they charge a class room supply fee. On top of the taxes and levies we already pay.


Well, my friends aren't teachers in Ohio. I guarantee you that there is no classroom supply fee where they teach. One of my friends teaches in a Michigan town where nearly every parent has been laid off or fired, so there is no help from parents. She has even purchased winter coats for a few students who did not have them. You're right though, all teachers are greedy and lazy.

If you don't believe that many teachers spend a great deal of time outside of the traditional work day grading papers and writing lesson plans, then I don't know what to tell you. I teach one college course a year, it's only seven weeks long, and it probably takes me almost 100 hours to prepare for it and grade the assignments outside of the classroom. I could do it in 20 hours, but I actually care about the education that my students get. Imagine how much time a good teacher who teaches 5 days a week must spend on it.

I just love how we complain about the direction of our country's economy, and how we're losing ground to other nations, but we don't want to invest in public education. It's easier to tear down the teachers (who are probably 90-95% "good eggs") than it is to look at the real problems with the education system.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby exiledbuckeye » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:19 am

Orenthal wrote:^^While they did close the gap its still close to a 20% premium, and relative to the rest of the economy working for a Toyota, Honda, or BMW plant is still great pay.


I wonder what the numbers are if you compare "new" hires with the Toyota workers, etc. I know the costs of the "legacy" workers are still higher, but I think the newer ones are right in line with the Toyota and Honda workers. No numbers to back it up though.

The U.S. automakers finally have their quality up and in some cases beyond the Japanese automakers, and they're getting their labor costs in line. Should be interesting to see if they stay competitive.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Orenthal » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:30 am

exiledbuckeye wrote:
Orenthal wrote:^^While they did close the gap its still close to a 20% premium, and relative to the rest of the economy working for a Toyota, Honda, or BMW plant is still great pay.


I wonder what the numbers are if you compare "new" hires with the Toyota workers, etc. I know the costs of the "legacy" workers are still higher, but I think the newer ones are right in line with the Toyota and Honda workers. No numbers to back it up though.

The U.S. automakers finally have their quality up and in some cases beyond the Japanese automakers, and they're getting their labor costs in line. Should be interesting to see if they stay competitive.


That would be the ultimate measure. As the high pay guys retire, will anyone ever see those rates again. If not, it may be an even better time to invest in GM or F. Agree on the second part of your post 100%. Think public perception on that is lags, but will be seen within the next few years. Especially with Toyota's public missteps.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:32 am

Comments on the teacher debate.

1. I have never heard a collective group of people complain more about their pay. Are there pros and cons to being a teacher, sure, but that was your choice. When they graduated with an education degree their future was mostly set. That was their choice, they may not get paid as much as they think they are worth but they certainly don't complain about their snow days that aren't made up or their 4 months a year off. It is all about trade offs. Everyone thinks they are underpaid, no one wants to hear teachers bitch about it more than others.

2. The fall of our educational system does not fall at the feet of teachers, it is at the feet of parents. The best teacher in the world isn't turning a C student to an A student with out the help of parents. You can keep throwing money at the educational system all you want, but with out parental involvement it is just plugging holes in the dam.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:39 am

danwismar wrote:Some great points, EW. I've spent 33 years in the employment/recruiting business, so I think (hope) I know a little bit about who gets hired and why in US companies. And I'm married to a retired H.S. algebra teacher. So selfishly speaking, I'm glad the retirement system is what it is. All the more reason to reform it so it can still be a viable system 50 years from now. You can see that when I advocate to reform the status quo, it's not out of resenting anyone's bennies...or feeling overly taxed to support the system. The status quo benefits me directly. I advocate for it because without reform, it goes south...probably not for my household, or in my lifetime, but for my kids' generation...and their kids.

A few people have pointed out that the biggest change in our society is that the so-called unskilled guy can no longer opt out of college and instead go down to the Ford plant right out of high school and make $15-20/hr screwing in dome lights on a Fairlane assembly line, like 30-50 years ago. That guy could make a great middle-class life for himself...maybe a boat or an RV or a cottage in the country to retire to..if he was smart about his money. And his union helped him make that happen. But like O said above, those obligations to auto (and other)workers eventually killed the goose that laid the golden egg. (That and Japan)

Seems to me that the emphasis on education is all well and good, but our schools are not turning out the kinds of graduates our companies need and want to hire. My daughter wanted to be a theater major in college. I always told her...only half-jokingly..."that's fine...there's nothing wrong with being a theater major...I just had a really nice one wait on me at Chili's last weekend." Point made. She ended up working in the health care industry (as a theater major).

2010 college grads are telling me today that they're running into 2009 grads competing with them for the entry-level jobs. Never a good sign.

If it helps anyone's spirits...we've noticed a sharp uptick in business activity since about Jan 1. Companies are moving, getting off dead center and acting decisively to fill what have been open spots in their companies. We're very busy right now. Still it's clearly a "jobless recovery" in terms of its impact on the unemployment numbers..(at least that's what we called it in the last decade...not sure what the preferred term is with a Dem in the White House.) Lots of the hiring is replacing retirees and other attrition.


Dan your post got me to thinking about something that has always sort of been a question in my mind, retirement, and why and when did we get to the point that an individual's retirement plans we're so dependent on contributions from their employers. In such a free market culture as ours, with so much personal responsibility & accountability being clamored decade after decade (particularly in the last 10-15 years) why aren't we collecting paychecks and made to be be 100% responsible for our own retirements. I'm sure there is a fairly reasonable time & place in history that can explain this paradigm shift, and it just might be due to free market forces. But I just can't help but think to myself you go to work, get compensated the fair wage you agreed to, and you go home. Why would en employer owe you anything more after that?

I'm not complaining b/c frankly I live amongst these conditions and honestly I highly doubt I'd have enough of a retirement without employer assistance, I just sit back and think if I the employee am not required to contribute to the company I worked for once I'm retired (let alone show any loyalty to them with my purchasing power) then how did we get to a point where they are required to contribute to our lives later down the road.

I'm not arguing one way is right or wrong mind you.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby exiledbuckeye » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:40 am

Just a funny one for you, Ziner. We had two (maybe three?) snow days here in Austin last month...they don't build in the make-up days here, apparently, like they do in other places. They're having school on Memorial Day as a makeup. People are pissed, I think it's hilarious.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Orenthal » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:43 am

Donny, ever hear of FDR or Social Security?
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:47 am

FUDU wrote:
Dan your post got me to thinking about something that has always sort of been a question in my mind, retirement, and why and when did we get to the point that an individual's retirement plans we're so dependent on contributions from their employers. In such a free market culture as ours, with so much personal responsibility & accountability being clamored decade after decade (particularly in the last 10-15 years) why aren't we collecting paychecks and made to be be 100% responsible for our own retirements. I'm sure there is a fairly reasonable time & place in history that can explain this paradigm shift, and it just might be due to free market forces. But I just can't help but think to myself you go to work, get compensated the fair wage you agreed to, and you go home. Why would en employer owe you anything more after that?

I'm not complaining b/c frankly I live amongst these conditions and honestly I highly doubt I'd have enough of a retirement without employer assistance, I just sit back and think if I the employee am not required to contribute to the company I worked for once I'm retired (let alone show any loyalty to them with my purchasing power) then how did we get to a point where they are required to contribute to our lives later down the road.

I'm not arguing one way is right or wrong mind you.


I fully intend to fund my own retirement. That is why I have been putting large amounts of money away for just that since I started working. I am not banking on SS to be around in 35 years from now. You start early, you let your money work for you in the market and you fund your own retirement.

Just imagine if I got the 7% I have been contributing to SS for the last 7 years as well. Damn my 401k would be pimpin.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:48 am

Ziner wrote:Comments on the teacher debate.

1. I have never heard a collective group of people complain more about their pay. Are there pros and cons to being a teacher, sure, but that was your choice. When they graduated with an education degree their future was mostly set. That was their choice, they may not get paid as much as they think they are worth but they certainly don't complain about their snow days that aren't made up or their 4 months a year off. It is all about trade offs. Everyone thinks they are underpaid, no one wants to hear teachers bitch about it more than others.

2. The fall of our educational system does not fall at the feet of teachers, it is at the feet of parents. The best teacher in the world isn't turning a C student to an A student with out the help of parents. You can keep throwing money at the educational system all you want, but with out parental involvement it is just plugging holes in the dam.


Dude, most people feel they themselves are under paid, and most people think very few other can do their job.

As far as parents/money and the education system, you're spot on. Plus as you noted already if you don't like the conditions of what you're doing teaching, move the fuck on, that goes for any job though right? IMO individuals don't do enough diligence in prioritizing their personal needs when searching for a career or job. Do you want more money or more time, b/c if you want more money you ain't getting 3 months a year off while still collecting decent salary checks. If you want time, and money isn't all that to you, than most certainly look into teaching (and IMO more power to you if you value time over money).
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:49 am

exiledbuckeye wrote:Just a funny one for you, Ziner. We had two (maybe three?) snow days here in Austin last month...they don't build in the make-up days here, apparently, like they do in other places. They're having school on Memorial Day as a makeup. People are pissed, I think it's hilarious.


Snowdays in Austin, can't imagine they are too concerned with them, haha.

I dont know if it is changed but where I went to school we only had to make up after 5 days. We had 180 school days, which could be as low as 175 with cancellations. Not sure if that policy has changed.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:58 am

Orenthal wrote:Donny, ever hear of FDR or Social Security?
Well yeah, but I hardly believe the New Deal had such an impact in one fell swoop. It may have been the first piece of the foundation for things to follow many years later.

My point was that it seems inconsistent with true free market forces (if in fact free market forces did not bring that paradigm shift about).

Akin to the recent SS debates about tax payers being able to invest their SS contributions as they see fit etc...
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Orenthal » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:03 pm

Z
"Everyone thinks they are underpaid, no one wants to hear teachers bitch about it more than others."

While that can be read 2 ways. I don't think Ziner meant they as teachers, but they as you/me.

I'm with Ziner I have been hoarding money, stocks, silver, and the like since I started working at freaking McDonald's. Then again it gets back to the parent aspect. I was forced to save while working at 15, and as I got older I started to realize the wisdom on my own.

I don't always listen well though. I did invest a significant portion of my savings into one bad stock. Wiped out 75%. However that saving mentality has allowed me to build that back up quickly, and without any crazy change in lifestyle.

I laugh when I see that SS statement. Give me my money.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Orenthal » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:06 pm

FUDU wrote:
Orenthal wrote:Donny, ever hear of FDR or Social Security?
Well yeah, but I hardly believe the New Deal had such an impact in one fell swoop. It may have been the first piece of the foundation for things to follow many years later.

My point was that it seems inconsistent with true free market forces (if in fact free market forces did not bring that paradigm shift about).

Akin to the recent SS debates about tax payers being able to invest their SS contributions as they see fit etc...


It's just like Obamacare/Great Society. It is what progressive democrats do. Open the door, make you feel entitled, game over. Sure it doesn't happen overnight, but once its done its done.

It's a mixed economy with strong free market leanings. Been that way since founding, with shifts toward and away from socialism/true free-market.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:10 pm

Orenthal wrote:Z
"Everyone thinks they are underpaid, no one wants to hear teachers bitch about it more than others."

While that can be read 2 ways. I don't think Ziner meant they as teachers, but they as you/me.

I'm with Ziner I have been hoarding money, stocks, silver, and the like since I started working at freaking McDonald's. Then again it gets back to the parent aspect. I was forced to save while working at 15, and as I got older I started to realize the wisdom on my own.

I don't always listen well though. I did invest a significant portion of my savings into one bad stock. Wiped out 75%. However that saving mentality has allowed me to build that back up quickly, and without any crazy change in lifestyle.

I laugh when I see that SS statement. Give me my money.


exactly how I meant it OJ. I think I am underpaid, shit we have had pay freezes for two years that finally got loosened this year and I received a sweet 2% raise... which wouldn't be bad, except I got promoted right after the pay freeze and have yet to receive that bump in pay. So forgive me for not having compassion for public workers whose employer is losing money each year bitch about having to contribute more or not get raises. However, you dont hear me bitching about how underpaid I am to everyone I know on facebook or protest because they want me to pay a below average percentage of my benefits.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Orenthal » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:14 pm

^Agree. I make less then now then when I worked for the fed's (my choice), but work harder? In the event I wanted to complain about my pay? I go to my boss, ask for a raise, and make my case. Don't get it? Up to me to look elsewhere.

That is part of the problem with union structure. One size fits all approach. The old Plato vs. Aristotle debate. Sacrifice the goods earning potential, for the power of numbers, saftey of the LCD.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:17 pm

Honest question. Would people be happier if they took the teachers salary and paid them Sept through May instead of spreading it out over the entire year?

As far as snow days, My mom teaches in Chardon. They get 3. After that they have to make them up.

I think it's obvious that the system, as it is currently constructed and run, is unsustainable, and cuts will have to be made in pensions/benefits and other such things. Of course, cutting those incentives will make it less likely for good smart people to go into teaching, and I think you have to consider that in nay changes implemented.

But, obviously, the teacher's union (any union) is going to fight tooth and nail to keep what they have. To think otherwise is just silly. It would be like complaining that Scott Boras is trying to get the most money for his clients without considering the good of the team.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:22 pm

Orenthal wrote:Z
"Everyone thinks they are underpaid, no one wants to hear teachers bitch about it more than others."

While that can be read 2 ways. I don't think Ziner meant they as teachers, but they as you/me.

I'm with Ziner I have been hoarding money, stocks, silver, and the like since I started working at freaking McDonald's. Then again it gets back to the parent aspect. I was forced to save while working at 15, and as I got older I started to realize the wisdom on my own.

I don't always listen well though. I did invest a significant portion of my savings into one bad stock. Wiped out 75%. However that saving mentality has allowed me to build that back up quickly, and without any crazy change in lifestyle.

I laugh when I see that SS statement. Give me my money.


I had no idea you were Jewish, but always suspected Ziner.

I knew how Ziner meant the under paid comment, just reinforcing.

I'm very similar to you two in that when it comes to discipline I'm a viking. However that took me some early adult years to battle through. Now my mantra is debt free, everyday, and I'll win the battle by attrition. As much as I dream of living a life off the grid and avoiding the system that way, it is unrealistic (for now), and I'm not Peter Stevens. Unfortunately I'm also a gambleholic, in that I get addicted to high risk management and even chasing. I have to be very wary & cautious when looking to invest.

My retirement plan is simple, lose the house payment way way early, and go to town on the significant increase in disposable income. Progress from there.

However the paradigm shift has been around too long and worked like magic b/c like most right now in my 30's I still cannot discount employer contributions for future plans.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:31 pm

motherscratcher wrote:Honest question. Would people be happier if they took the teachers salary and paid them Sept through May instead of spreading it out over the entire year?


Who cares about that? I know roughly how much they get paid. I know it isn't chump change and I know it isn't exorbitant. It is a decent and fair wage that comes with other perks such more time off than pretty much any other career I can think of and pension and health care benefits that are covered at a much higher than average percentage by their employer. During tough times it is not unreasonable that they have to give a little back. It just isn't. The government is their company, their company is broke as fuck. When other companies are broke as fuck they lay people off and slash benefits.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:48 pm

Ziner wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:Honest question. Would people be happier if they took the teachers salary and paid them Sept through May instead of spreading it out over the entire year?


Who cares about that? I know roughly how much they get paid. I know it isn't chump change and I know it isn't exorbitant. It is a decent and fair wage that comes with other perks such more time off than pretty much any other career I can think of and pension and health care benefits that are covered at a much higher than average percentage by their employer. During tough times it is not unreasonable that they have to give a little back. It just isn't. The government is their company, their company is broke as fuck. When other companies are broke as fuck they lay people off and slash benefits.


I agree with all of that. Honestly I do. I don't care about that, and that's my point. There have been a handful of comments from people complaining that teachers get paid in the summer for doing nothing. I just wondered if the people that honestly believe that would rather the distribution time frame be changed for some reason.

I agree that pension and benefits have to be adjusted. They just have to. The system isn't sustainable. I haven't asked any, but I suspect that a lot of teachers would acknowledge that. But, when you start talking about cutting benefits that they have had and pensions, it gets scary for people. Of course it does. It would be scary for anyone.

It just seems like when, as you say, other companies are broke as fuck and lay off people and cut benefits, we as a society empathize with those people. When we start talking about teachers getting laid off and benefits cut, it's like "fuck them, those lazy assholes deserve it."

I personally don't care if the union is broken by the government, because changes have to be made. But you also have to be careful what you wish for because I'm not sure how getting more poorly qualified individuals to become teachers is a good thing.

Teacher on an individual level, are good people trying to do a good job and get through their day, just like everyone else. How the fuck did teachers become the enemy?
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:55 pm

motherscratcher wrote:
Teacher on an individual level, are good people trying to do a good job and get through their day, just like everyone else. How the fuck did teachers become the enemy?


Fucking summer homework. Assholes
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby exiledbuckeye » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:00 pm

motherscratcher wrote:Teacher on an individual level, are good people trying to do a good job and get through their day, just like everyone else. How the fuck did teachers become the enemy?


This.

Teachers, firefighters, etc. are our neighbors and members of our community, people who work hard, pay taxes, and try to support their families. We're not talking about Bill Gates. Teachers also babysit our little shithead brats all day long. Thankless job. Also not sure when they became the enemy. They're just Average Joes.

Unrelated: is it ethical to continue to slash taxes on the wealthy and expect the middle class to pick up the slack? Solving budget shortfalls with attacks on teachers and public employees should be at odds with the Republican Party's public facade of Christian values, "family" values, and representing "ordinary" people. How is putting these people out of a job, or slashing a family's modest income ethically superior to restoring Reagan or Clinton era tax rates on incomes above $250,000?
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:03 pm

exiledbuckeye wrote:
motherscratcher wrote:Teacher on an individual level, are good people trying to do a good job and get through their day, just like everyone else. How the fuck did teachers become the enemy?


This.

Teachers, firefighters, etc. are our neighbors and members of our community, people who work hard, pay taxes, and try to support their families. We're not talking about Bill Gates. Teachers also babysit our little shithead brats all day long. Thankless job. Also not sure when they became the enemy. They're just Average Joes.

Unrelated: is it ethical to continue to slash taxes on the wealthy and expect the middle class to pick up the slack? Solving budget shortfalls with attacks on teachers and public employees should be at odds with the Republican Party's public facade of Christian values, "family" values, and representing "ordinary" people. How is putting these people out of a job, or slashing a family's modest income ethically superior to restoring Reagan or Clinton era tax rates on incomes above $250,000?

It's not, exile.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby pup » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:17 pm

Don't think the complaint is that they are getting paid on July. Think the complaint is they bitch about only making 40K per year when that year only comprises 9 months of work.

I love the story about the teacher having to buy supplies because they are teaching in a community where almost everyone else is unemployed. I am sure a lot of those unemployed would trade places with one of those poor teachers.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:31 pm

pup wrote:Don't think the complaint is that they are getting paid on July. Think the complaint is they bitch about only making 40K per year when that year only comprises 9 months of work.

I love the story about the teacher having to buy supplies because they are teaching in a community where almost everyone else is unemployed. I am sure a lot of those unemployed would trade places with one of those poor teachers.


Seriously

Just STFU and do your job without the constant whining ....like everybody else

If its that bad, quit. The general public is sick and tired of hearing yir shit while they themselves are getting hammered

And no I do not beleive that teachers are the enemy. The union is and needs to be busted as well as the over paid local administrators. 200k a yr here in Erie and he was a known coke head. Now they're 26 mil over budget and they want another tax increase while last yr spending over 100K on travel to conventions to 'learn stuff'

Color me thoroughly disgusted...and again S T F U

Fortunately I live in the burbs and another district where those in charge actually know how to count to 10 but they're srill on my shit list for wasting $
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby danwismar » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:35 pm

exiledbuckeye wrote:The health care obligations are what killed the auto industry as we know it. And that can be directly related to two things: 1) the astronomical increase in the cost of health care, and 2) advances in health care that allowed people to live longer. These things are related, I know. But promising retirees health benefits for life was a much different proposition when Average Joe lived to be maybe 65 years old.


Pension obligations are just as big a factor as healthcare obligations...and for the same reason...people are living longer and current retirees are taxing the funds and draining it for future retirees.

exiledbuckeye wrote:By the way, there are and have been a hell of a lot of auto workers who worked much harder than screwing in dome lights on an assembly line. Talk to some guys who worked in the engine plants, or the foundry. My dad worked in the foundry at the Brookpark plant for many years, and that was no cakewalk. He eventually moved to the engine plant and ended up tearing both rotator cuffs twice doing his job.


Sorry that you took me wrong there. My bro-in-law just retired from Ford Brookpark Engine, and I know it can be very hard work. I never meant to imply that auto workers don't work hard. Just that they were able to get a decent job without bringing "skills" or advanced education to the task. I wish those jobs were still available. And clearly, they acquired skills of all sorts once they got into those jobs. Way more "skills", in fact, than any fresh grad from a 4-year liberal arts program has, that's for sure.

exiledbuckeye wrote:Our schools are turning out unqualified graduates because they have to follow No Child Left Behind and teach to the test. We do not push any of our students to be creative and innovative, or to solve problems. We do not focus on math or science. And we do not recruit the most qualified and brightest college graduates to be teachers because they get paid and treated like garbage, and become the scorn of the public in any belt-tightening times. No wonder the Chinese and India are running circles around us. Only a matter of time before we become irrelevant if we stick to the status quo.


The "mismatch" between the skills brought to the market by our college graduates and the job requirements of our employers is more than 10 years old, and can't be blamed on the NCLB legislation, authored primarily by Ted Kennedy, in the last decade. Besides, I was speaking about how colleges prepare students for the real world, which is only marginally affected by NCLB. Besides, NCLB only requires individual states to establish "standards" (a helpful, if not necessary thing, in theory) leaving it to the education professionals in each state to determine them and enforce them, which some states do better than others.

Don't get me wrong...I don't think the feds should have much of a role, if any, in K-12 education. When I'm king, the Dept of Education will go away.

You'll get no "scorn" for teachers from me, though the notion that they are "paid like garbage" is highly debatable...especially when you factor in that they work approx 13 weeks less per year than their counterparts in other professions, and have retirement plans that put SS to shame.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:35 pm

exiledbuckeye wrote:
Unrelated: is it ethical to continue to slash taxes on the wealthy and expect the middle class to pick up the slack? Solving budget shortfalls with attacks on teachers and public employees should be at odds with the Republican Party's public facade of Christian values, "family" values, and representing "ordinary" people. How is putting these people out of a job, or slashing a family's modest income ethically superior to restoring Reagan or Clinton era tax rates on incomes above $250,000?


The comfort that politicians and voters have in spending rich people's money makes me laugh. IMO the real problem isn't that the wealthy don't have enough skin in the game, it is the people at the bottom have little to none in the game. Easy to always ask for more when it isn't yours.

There is nothing getting slashed in Wisco from what I can tell. The health care is before tax and I would guess the pension is as well (I wouldn't know). They are telling their employees they can't continue to take from others to give to them. Maybe they could use their 3-4 months off a year to figure out how to make it up. My contribution level to my health care went up last year, I didnt expect the rich to pay for it, why should they? I don't have the luxury of 3-4 months a year to have a part time job to make up for it so I just bend over.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:43 pm

This thread and the ongoing conversations about job searches, wage freezes, pissing and moaning about sharing the cost of your own benifits, etc just reaffirms my decision to go it on my own

There is a great peace of mind that accompanies being in control of your own financial destiny when it comes to a paycheck and day to day schedule

...and I have no idea why the teachers around here have the day off today...again
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby exiledbuckeye » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:51 pm

pup wrote:Don't think the complaint is that they are getting paid on July. Think the complaint is they bitch about only making 40K per year when that year only comprises 9 months of work.

I love the story about the teacher having to buy supplies because they are teaching in a community where almost everyone else is unemployed. I am sure a lot of those unemployed would trade places with one of those poor teachers.


I agree, and my friend never, ever complains about it. It was more to illustrate that teachers are not the enemy.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:53 pm

For those of you interested in some good reading on education problems in this country (real technical problems that lead to poorly educated youth) read the books by Samuel Blumenfeld, some real good stuff there, eye opening, even for the older books.

Outcome based education just doesn't cut it and that is what we got right now, probably deserves a totally different thread though.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby exiledbuckeye » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:57 pm

Ziner wrote:There is nothing getting slashed in Wisco from what I can tell. The health care is before tax and I would guess the pension is as well (I wouldn't know). They are telling their employees they can't continue to take from others to give to them. Maybe they could use their 3-4 months off a year to figure out how to make it up. My contribution level to my health care went up last year, I didnt expect the rich to pay for it, why should they? I don't have the luxury of 3-4 months a year to have a part time job to make up for it so I just bend over.


To the extent that there is an imbalance -- Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January.


Fact: Wisconsin ended the 2009-11 budget biennium with a surplus. Absolutely no reason to kill the unions for concessions in Wisconsin except that the Republican Gov. hates them.

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:58 pm

exiledbuckeye wrote:I agree, and my friend never, ever complains about it. It was more to illustrate that teachers are not the enemy.


To clarify I certainly do not identify the teacher as the enemy. I just do not have a ton of compassion for them in this situation. Sometimes their job sucks, well so does everyone else's. They don't get bonus points for putting up with children anymore than I get bonus points for dealing with numbers all day. That was decided when I went forward.

I just am annoyed at the Wisconsin teachers who are shutting down the state over the fact that they want them to contribute at a below average rate. That is all. I would make them show up with a doctors note or have to take their days without pay. Protest at 230 once the kids leave.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:05 pm

exiledbuckeye wrote:
Ziner wrote:There is nothing getting slashed in Wisco from what I can tell. The health care is before tax and I would guess the pension is as well (I wouldn't know). They are telling their employees they can't continue to take from others to give to them. Maybe they could use their 3-4 months off a year to figure out how to make it up. My contribution level to my health care went up last year, I didnt expect the rich to pay for it, why should they? I don't have the luxury of 3-4 months a year to have a part time job to make up for it so I just bend over.


To the extent that there is an imbalance -- Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January.


Fact: Wisconsin ended the 2009-11 budget biennium with a surplus. Absolutely no reason to kill the unions for concessions in Wisconsin except that the Republican Gov. hates them.

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html


I dont really have the time to read a 15 page report, let alone from a clearly liberal website that has an agenda. A quick google search gives me this article which I will assume uses facts.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolit ... 48564.html

Madison — The state faces a looming $2.7 billion budget shortfall, but that hasn't kept candidates for governor from piling on with what are likely to be hundreds of millions of dollars in new commitments to cut taxes or increase spending.


This was before Walker got in to office.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:08 pm

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolit ... 75069.html

Madison — Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle's administration on Friday told Republican Governor-elect Scott Walker that he would have to cope with a $2.2 billion deficit in the state's upcoming two-year budget, but this brighter-than-expected forecast contained more than $1 billion in hidden pain.


http://badgerherald.com/news/2010/09/22 ... cit_hi.php

The Wisconsin deficit is already projected at a daunting $2.7 billion, but a new report from a University of Wisconsin professor said the deficit is actually at $3.1 billion.

Andrew Reschovsky, UW professor of economics, said previously uncalculated factors could increase the budget shortfall by as much as $400 million.

The Legislative Fiscal Bureau initially estimated the deficit at $2.7 billion based on the deficit in the state’s General Fund, the money the state uses to operate.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:08 pm

I'd like to point out to all of the people that are saying teachers should do something else if they think it's so bad. You are right. If teachers don't like what's going on they should find something else to do. I absolutely believe this.

At the same time, to everyone who thinks that teachers have it so fucking good, feel free to go to school to get an education and become a teacher.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:10 pm

Ziner wrote:
exiledbuckeye wrote:I agree, and my friend never, ever complains about it. It was more to illustrate that teachers are not the enemy.


To clarify I certainly do not identify the teacher as the enemy. I just do not have a ton of compassion for them in this situation. Sometimes their job sucks, well so does everyone else's. They don't get bonus points for putting up with children anymore than I get bonus points for dealing with numbers all day. That was decided when I went forward.

I just am annoyed at the Wisconsin teachers who are shutting down the state over the fact that they want them to contribute at a below average rate. That is all. I would make them show up with a doctors note or have to take their days without pay. Protest at 230 once the kids leave.


Agree with this whole thing.

I don't care what everyone else thinks about you Ziner. I think you're a smart dude. :thumb up:
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby exiledbuckeye » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:15 pm

While I have been playing devil's advocate in some respects, I will say this.

I think that teachers should be paid MUCH higher than they currently are. We should put them on a pedestal, because I think it is one of, if not the most, important job in this country. I also think that teachers are crazy to continue to support their unions; if their union is doing such a great job of protecting them, why is their pay so low? We should give them true merit evaluations and pay. They should assume some of the risk - contributing to their pensions and benefits. Teaching shouldn't be "at will" employment, but there shouldn't be de facto tenure either. If you suck, you're out.

And I fully believe that if that ever happens, the local officials would be absolutely begging for a return to the union system. I think the lack of merit evaluation and pay keeps their pay artificially deflated. If we had to pay teachers a market wage in order to recruit the brightest and the best, Joe Taxpayer would absolutely be shitting their pants.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:26 pm

Related link about Ohio:

http://www.cleveland.com/obrien/index.ssf/2011/02/reminding_ohios_public_employe.html

FTR, on the notion of compensation, start with merit pay for everybody, be good at what you do or GTFO.

End.

Of.

Story.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby danwismar » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:40 pm

From what I read, Walker is asking teachers to contribute half of their pension funds (like most of the rest of the country, where employer and employee make exactly equal contributions to SS and Medicare...or where employers match some percentage, or in some cases, 100% of employee 401k contributions).

He is asking for them to pay 12.6% of their healthcare premium, which is comparable to many of their private sector counterparts.

This is because his charter as governor is to do something about the $3 billion budget shortfall he inherited. How that deficit compares to how well or how badly some other state is doing is a concern to him why, exactly?

What is amazing to me is that his actions are attributed to "hate" of someone or some group of people.
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Re: Wisconsin Gov. vs. Public Unions

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:41 pm

danwismar wrote:
What is amazing to me is that his actions are attributed to "hate" of someone or some group of people.


That is liberal playbook page 2. Page 1 would accuse him of being a racist first.
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