Heckert Taking Some Shots at Mangini

[BruceK]

From Grossi's story in today's PD -emphasis added

"4. Exactly why did the team trade for Jayme Mitchell, who never played in a 3-4 defense at any level and doesn't have a body that would ever fit in that scheme?
Heckert described this one as "bizarre."
The Browns acquired Mitchell from Minnesota on Oct. 6. The price was a seventh-round pick in the 2012 draft. Mitchell never played a down while on the active roster the rest of the season.
"He was by far our best pass rusher and never got on the field, so I can't answer that one," Heckert said. "Eric watched him [on tape prior to the trade] and Eric liked him. So I don't know what happened after that. He's a nickel pass rusher on third down. We thought he could really rush the passer."
Heckert said that Mitchell could still fill that role for the Browns in their new scheme. But, guess what? Mitchell's contract is up and he can be a free agent.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2011/02/solving_a_few_of_the_10_great.html

[hermanfontenot]

Hasn't taken long for H&H to grasp on to the favorite strategy of Browns front offices: blame the last guy so they can buy a couple of years of terrible football.

And of course the fans will buy in. They always will. "WHAT DO YOU EXPECT!!! THE LAST GUY WUZ DYSFUNCTIONAL!!! IT'S GONNA TAKE YEARS TO MAKE UP FOR THE LAST GUY!!!"

Until, of course, H&H become the last guy...

[peeker643]

Hasn't taken long for H&H to grasp on to the favorite strategy of Browns front offices: blame the last guy so they can buy a couple of years of terrible football.

And of course the fans will buy in. They always will. "WHAT DO YOU EXPECT!!! THE LAST GUY WUZ DYSFUNCTIONAL!!! IT'S GONNA TAKE YEARS TO MAKE UP FOR THE LAST GUY!!!"

Until, of course, H&H become the last guy...

This reminds me of how H&H effed up the Robiskie situation his rookie year. You know, when they let Mangini fall in love w/Robo and take him in RD2 and then Robiskie never got on the field?

When they gonna learn?

Wait a second....

I liked Mangini. I thought he did a good job. But he's a football coach who was always either overwhelmed because shit was dysfunctional or he was not the guy of the guy who came in to fix the dysfunction (which makes that dysfunctional).

Yes, the shit has to stop, right. But they have an organization now. You might not like the guys (or all of them) in the key roles) but thse roles are defined. We all need it to transpire to W-L column, no doubt.

But suffice it to say I'm a lot more at ease with an organizational structure like this one and with the people involved than I have been literally at any single time since they came back.

Trojan horse to play the dysfunction card here when IMO the last 12 years have DEFINED dysfunction.

YMMV- but grabbing guys because ya like them on film and then that guy never seeing seeing the field pre-dated H&H. That was a Mangini production.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

This just confirms my opinion that Mangini has no freaking talent evaluation skills whatsoever...

Not just the draft but, the players already on the roster.

Hells bells I thought Jordan Norwood got cut and if Mangini was playing his guys to prove a point then he deserved to hang in the noose he set for himself the moment he took the job

EOS

[hiko]

I hardly think this is throwing poor Eric under the bus - In my opinion, Mangini's biggest flaw was his talent evaluation, and the way he'd play obviously inferior players in situations for who knows what reasons. Mangini deserves any criticism he gets on that front.

[mistero]

Ok, what about dogging out Eric Wright? Why was that useful? Just don't re-sign him and move on. No need to call out ex-players. No other GM's do that. That's bush league. Heckert needs to accept blame for some whacky GM'ing too. The 7 WR's on the roster was his fault.

[peeker643]

Ok, what about dogging out Eric Wright? Why was that useful? Just don't re-sign him and move on. No need to call out ex-players. No other GM's do that. That's bush league. Heckert needs to accept blame for some whacky GM'ing too. The 7 WR's on the roster was his fault.

God knows I said the same things about Eric Wright with much stronger language but you're right, a GM shouldn't go about it that way. Leave it alone, don't say what is easily understood and move on.

I'm assuming we won't be seeing Eric Wright as a Browns nickle back in 2011.
Too bad because I think he could have excelled in that role had he been willing to play it and he could have re-found whatever confidence he lost last season after Anquan Boldin stole his lunch money.

[motherscratcher]

LOL, I was just working on the Glance and finished the Browns section. Then I come here and find a thread on this and realize that every damn thing I wrote is in the 1st 6 posts here.

Hey Guys! Look how original and insightful I can be!

Well, I'm not fucking changing it now.

[hermanfontenot]

I hardly think this is throwing poor Eric under the bus - In my opinion, Mangini's biggest flaw was his talent evaluation, and the way he'd play obviously inferior players in situations for who knows what reasons. Mangini deserves any criticism he gets on that front.

I always forget about the plethora of All-Pros warming the bench in Cleveland. That's my bad, I guess.

[trsteve1]

The only thing I can see useful in calling out Wright is if they plan to keep him and want to light a fire under him.. otherwise.. yea, why say something about someone you will let go (which is why I think they might not? Though, I might be reaching)..

[hiko]

I hardly think this is throwing poor Eric under the bus - In my opinion, Mangini's biggest flaw was his talent evaluation, and the way he'd play obviously inferior players in situations for who knows what reasons. Mangini deserves any criticism he gets on that front.

I always forget about the plethora of All-Pros warming the bench in Cleveland. That's my bad, I guess.

Oh, you're so right. I guess it was no big deal to keep playing Delhomme vs. Wallace, or Wright vs. Haden, or Jamal Lewis vs. Jerome Harrison, because none of them were All Pros. Better, yes, but hey, it don't matter anyway.

[bookelly]

Mangini's die was cast the moment St Clair became the starting RT. My cat is a better RT than St. Clair. A dead kangaroo is a better RT than St. Clair. If Eric couldn't see that, he deserved to go.

[hermanfontenot]

Oh, you're so right. I guess it was no big deal to keep playing Delhomme vs. Wallace, or Wright vs. Haden, or Jamal Lewis vs. Jerome Harrison, because none of them were All Pros. Better, yes, but hey, it don't matter anyway.

Wallace is garbage, Hiko. Everything he threw over twenty yards went straight to the chain gang. Guy is a career backup for a reason.

Harrison has had about four good games in his career. He was nailed to the bench in Philadelphia.

Haden ended up playing so I don't see the problem there.

Are you seriously faulting Mangini for not playing the likes of Seneca Wallace and Jerome Harrison? Career benchwarmers for multiple teams?

Anyway, I look forward to the new regime playing the "cupboard is empty" card when they're putting a four-win product on the field next season. I'm sure they won't be faulted for putting Stiff A in front of Stiff B. At least for the short term.

[hiko]

Oh, you're so right. I guess it was no big deal to keep playing Delhomme vs. Wallace, or Wright vs. Haden, or Jamal Lewis vs. Jerome Harrison, because none of them were All Pros. Better, yes, but hey, it don't matter anyway.

Wallace is garbage, Hiko. Everything he threw over twenty yards went straight to the chain gang. Guy is a career backup for a reason.

Harrison has had about four good games in his career. He was nailed to the bench in Philadelphia.

Haden ended up playing so I don't see the problem there.

Are you seriously faulting Mangini for not playing the likes of Seneca Wallace and Jerome Harrison? Career benchwarmers for multiple teams?

Yes, I am. I fault Mangini for not playing the best players. I'm not saying they were "great" players, but they clearly were performing better. You may not agree, but it was clear to me that Wallace was playing better than Delhomme, Haden was playing better than Wright, and Harrison was light years better than Lewis at the end of '09. Those are just a couple examples, and there was a CLEAR upturn in production in the case of Harrison and Haden once they took the field, but it took injuries to the poor performing players to finally get them on the field (weeks late).

If one wants to look at Mangini's failings as a talent evaluator, one needs only look at the 2009 draft.

Now, should Heckert throw him under the bus? Hell no. He should keep his mouth shut and have respect for a guy that probably deserves it, no matter if what he says is the truth or not.

[leadpipe]

Oh, you're so right. I guess it was no big deal to keep playing Delhomme vs. Wallace, or Wright vs. Haden, or Jamal Lewis vs. Jerome Harrison, because none of them were All Pros. Better, yes, but hey, it don't matter anyway.

Wallace is garbage, Hiko. Everything he threw over twenty yards went straight to the chain gang. Guy is a career backup for a reason.

Harrison has had about four good games in his career. He was nailed to the bench in Philadelphia.

Haden ended up playing so I don't see the problem there.

Are you seriously faulting Mangini for not playing the likes of Seneca Wallace and Jerome Harrison? Career benchwarmers for multiple teams?

Yes, I am. I fault Mangini for not playing the best players. I'm not saying they were "great" players, but they clearly were performing better. You may not agree, but it was clear to me that Wallace was playing better than Delhomme, Haden was playing better than Wright, and Harrison was light years better than Lewis at the end of '09. Those are just a couple examples, and there was a CLEAR upturn in production in the case of Harrison and Haden once they took the field, but it took injuries to the poor performing players to finally get them on the field (weeks late).

If one wants to look at Mangini's failings as a talent evaluator, one needs only look at the 2009 draft.

Now, should Heckert throw him under the bus? Hell no. He should keep his mouth shut and have respect for a guy that probably deserves it, no matter if what he says is the truth or not.

Word around the campfire was that Harrison couldn't get on the field because they didn't want their QB taken off on a stretcher.

I think we all saw a little more life in Harrison than Jamal at one point or another, and I assume the coaching staff did as well. But if your too stone dumb to follow scheme....I'll just say I'd be confident that he'll be an assache for a few more coaches before he's out of the league - while still having enough talent to be in it.

[hiko]

Word around the campfire was that Harrison couldn't get on the field because they didn't want their QB taken off on a stretcher.

I think we all saw a little more life in Harrison than Jamal at one point or another, and I assume the coaching staff did as well. But if your too stone dumb to follow scheme....I'll just say I'd be confident that he'll be an assache for a few more coaches before he's out of the league - while still having enough talent to be in it.

Well then I guess your only recourse is to stop trying to throw the ball and win your last 4 games on the back of RB who can't block but can actually run the ball.

[leadpipe]

Word around the campfire was that Harrison couldn't get on the field because they didn't want their QB taken off on a stretcher.

I think we all saw a little more life in Harrison than Jamal at one point or another, and I assume the coaching staff did as well. But if your too stone dumb to follow scheme....I'll just say I'd be confident that he'll be an assache for a few more coaches before he's out of the league - while still having enough talent to be in it.

Well then I guess your only recourse is to stop trying to throw the ball and win your last 4 games on the back of RB who can't block but can actually run the ball.

Yeah, that's what it pretty much game down to. And not disagreeing that he was the better choice at that point. I just think the reason it took him years to see the field was as much his doing as somebody misjudging talent.

[jb]

Hasn't taken long for H&H to grasp on to the favorite strategy of Browns front offices: blame the last guy so they can buy a couple of years of terrible football.

And of course the fans will buy in. They always will. "WHAT DO YOU EXPECT!!! THE LAST GUY WUZ DYSFUNCTIONAL!!! IT'S GONNA TAKE YEARS TO MAKE UP FOR THE LAST GUY!!!"

Until, of course, H&H become the last guy...

Nailed it. "Wahhhh, my great talent never got to plyay the right way."

Heckert just dropped in my eyes. he may as well be quotoing Phil Savage. Will be interesteing to see how this bunch handles 2 - 14. Hopefully, they do as well as Dunphy over in the Association.

[jb]

This just confirms my opinion that Mangini has no freaking talent evaluation skills whatsoever...

Who'd he sign as PK when Phil got hurt in 09 ?

[jb]

I hardly think this is throwing poor Eric under the bus - In my opinion, Mangini's biggest flaw was his talent evaluation, and the way he'd play obviously inferior players in situations for who knows what reasons. Mangini deserves any criticism he gets on that front.

I always forget about the plethora of All-Pros warming the bench in Cleveland. That's my bad, I guess.

Oh, you're so right. I guess it was no big deal to keep playing Delhomme vs. Wallace, or Wright vs. Haden, or Jamal Lewis vs. Jerome Harrison, because none of them were All Pros. Better, yes, but hey, it don't matter anyway.

Shity talent and a mediocre coch.

Let's debate what the problem was.

NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEXT!

( Heckert ust need sto STFU and do his job though. )

[Fire Marshall Bill]

This just confirms my opinion that Mangini has no freaking talent evaluation skills whatsoever...

Who'd he sign as PK when Phil got hurt in 09 ?

Yeah, you better hide you head...

[hiko]

( Heckert ust need sto STFU and do his job though. )

Let's all agree on that. There's no need to air this publicly.

EDIT - Funny how there is a clamor for "the truth", then complaining about it when we hear it. Like I always say, there are times that they need to lie to the fans. Fans can't handle the truth.

[JCoz]

Hasn't taken long for H&H to grasp on to the favorite strategy of Browns front offices: blame the last guy so they can buy a couple of years of terrible football.

And of course the fans will buy in. They always will. "WHAT DO YOU EXPECT!!! THE LAST GUY WUZ DYSFUNCTIONAL!!! IT'S GONNA TAKE YEARS TO MAKE UP FOR THE LAST GUY!!!"

Until, of course, H&H become the last guy...

This reminds me of how H&H effed up the Robiskie situation his rookie year. You know, when they let Mangini fall in love w/Robo and take him in RD2 and then Robiskie never got on the field?

When they gonna learn?

Wait a second....

I liked Mangini. I thought he did a good job. But he's a football coach who was always either overwhelmed because shit was dysfunctional or he was not the guy of the guy who came in to fix the dysfunction (which makes that dysfunctional).

Yes, the shit has to stop, right. But they have an organization now. You might not like the guys (or all of them) in the key roles) but thse roles are defined. We all need it to transpire to W-L column, no doubt.

But suffice it to say I'm a lot more at ease with an organizational structure like this one and with the people involved than I have been literally at any single time since they came back.

Trojan horse to play the dysfunction card here when IMO the last 12 years have DEFINED dysfunction.

YMMV- but grabbing guys because ya like them on film and then that guy never seeing seeing the field pre-dated H&H. That was a Mangini production.

I don't know that it gets addressed later in the thread (been out of touch for a week), but I think the issue to me (and I came here right after reading the article, wasn't surprised at the thread or title), is the fact that comments like this are being made at all in the public circle.

I literally stopped to think and recheck for a second that these were real quotes.

Indeed they are and it doesn't read well to me at all. That Heckert feels some need to answer questions by throwing the previous employee under the bus (read: making excuses).....well its not exactly the preferred method, and I'm not sure I'm liking the new Heckert who's had his muzzle removed.

I mean all that he said was probably true, and what you've said is probably true, but to me its completely besides the point.

WTF is heckert doing in the press answering questions like that for? Just no real need for that and frankly, its the low-class, point your finger approach that I'm not interested in hearing out of the upper management.

[JCoz]

Hasn't taken long for H&H to grasp on to the favorite strategy of Browns front offices: blame the last guy so they can buy a couple of years of terrible football.

And of course the fans will buy in. They always will. "WHAT DO YOU EXPECT!!! THE LAST GUY WUZ DYSFUNCTIONAL!!! IT'S GONNA TAKE YEARS TO MAKE UP FOR THE LAST GUY!!!"

Until, of course, H&H become the last guy...

Nailed it. "Wahhhh, my great talent never got to plyay the right way."

Heckert just dropped in my eyes. he may as well be quotoing Phil Savage. Will be interesteing to see how this bunch handles 2 - 14. Hopefully, they do as well as Dunphy over in the Association.

And I see it was addressed by several people.

Heckert went down a notch or two in my mind as well.

Really poor answers to several of those questions.

Time to give the mic back to Mike, Tom.

[motherscratcher]

( Heckert ust need sto STFU and do his job though. )

Let's all agree on that. There's no need to air this publicly.

EDIT - Funny how there is a clamor for "the truth", then complaining about it when we hear it. Like I always say, there are times that they need to lie to the fans. Fans can't handle the truth.

Good point. I remember not too long ago when everyone was so put out that Holmgren had the audacity to lie to them.

Now there are complaints that Heckert isn't Lt. Kendrick.

[motherscratcher]

Hasn't taken long for H&H to grasp on to the favorite strategy of Browns front offices: blame the last guy so they can buy a couple of years of terrible football.

And of course the fans will buy in. They always will. "WHAT DO YOU EXPECT!!! THE LAST GUY WUZ DYSFUNCTIONAL!!! IT'S GONNA TAKE YEARS TO MAKE UP FOR THE LAST GUY!!!"

Until, of course, H&H become the last guy...

Nailed it. "Wahhhh, my great talent never got to plyay the right way."

Heckert just dropped in my eyes. he may as well be quotoing Phil Savage. Will be interesteing to see how this bunch handles 2 - 14. Hopefully, they do as well as Dunphy over in the Association.

And I see it was addressed by several people.

Heckert went down a notch or two in my mind as well.

Really poor answers to several of those answers.

Time to give the mic back to Mike, Tom.

Before we start dropping Heckert down a peg or two for this perceived transgresion, maybe we should give him the benefit of the doubt a little bit. He hasn't said anything like this before. Maybe he wishes he could have this one back.

[jb]

No, it's professionalism and a culture of accountability, MoScra. I absolutely hated how davis cried about Clark and how Phil cried about Butchum. Both ere in over their hreads and at a loss as to how to get the team fixed. This isn't a good sign. He could have just answered the questions and been truthful without the rabbit punches. Could have said mangini played who he wanted to play. But the bottom line is Heckert had 53 control, not Mangini, right? So why's he talking shit?

This coming season is gonna be rough. Really rough. And patience has never been thinner collectively. The bar stool and internets' fans won't have Mangini to blame for everything. I hope these guys have the mettle to just own it and get through. This reboot is gonna take a while.

[JCoz]

Hasn't taken long for H&H to grasp on to the favorite strategy of Browns front offices: blame the last guy so they can buy a couple of years of terrible football.

And of course the fans will buy in. They always will. "WHAT DO YOU EXPECT!!! THE LAST GUY WUZ DYSFUNCTIONAL!!! IT'S GONNA TAKE YEARS TO MAKE UP FOR THE LAST GUY!!!"

Until, of course, H&H become the last guy...

Nailed it. "Wahhhh, my great talent never got to plyay the right way."

Heckert just dropped in my eyes. he may as well be quotoing Phil Savage. Will be interesteing to see how this bunch handles 2 - 14. Hopefully, they do as well as Dunphy over in the Association.

And I see it was addressed by several people.

Heckert went down a notch or two in my mind as well.

Really poor answers to several of those answers.

Time to give the mic back to Mike, Tom.

Before we start dropping Heckert down a peg or two for this perceived transgresion, maybe we should give him the benefit of the doubt a little bit. He hasn't said anything like this before. Maybe he wishes he could have this one back.

Look he's GOT the benefit of the doubt. He had a very good draft and offseason last year.

Now do it two or three more times in a row and keep your fuckin mouth shut for a while.

Once like this was plenty.

[JCoz]

No, it's professionalism and a culture of accountability, MoScra. I absolutely hated how davis cried about Clark and how Phil cried about Butchum. Both ere in over their hreads and at a loss as to how to get the team fixed. This isn't a good sign. He could have just answered the questions and been truthful without the rabbit punches. Could have said mangini played who he wanted to play. But the bottom line is Heckert had 53 control, not Mangini, right? So why's he talking shit?

This coming season is gonna be rough. Really rough. And patience has never been thinner collectively. The bar stool and internets' fans won't have Mangini to blame for everything. I hope these guys have the mettle to just own it and get through. This reboot is gonna take a while.

Ding ding. 100%

It reads badly, it nudges the perception of him closer to Phil and Davis.

Own your project. I agree JB, I was also thinking about how Heckert was supposed to be the anti-Kokonis, so WTF is he doing in the press essentially bitching about Mangini bullying him into roster moves?

Man up, or better yet, just shut up and work.

[daddywags]

Hadn't read it until now because I don't get that newspaper (I know, you can read stuff on line nowadays - sue me). My quick thoughts:

- I agree with those who don't want to believe this is our GM speaking. Sounds like sour grapes; and that's being kind.

- This is the guy who's in charge of putting together the 53-man roster and he admits that Jayme Mitchell is the best pass rusher on the team? Huh? They liked his tape? What did they do, put on a continuous loop of the two sacks he had in the past three seasons combined?

- You give your head coach a 53-man roster on which Jayme Mitchell is the best pass rusher and then you fire him for not winning enough games? Are you sure about that?

- Is it too much for a poor fan to hope that our GM really knows that Jayme Mitchell blows as a pass rusher and that he's going to look for better?

- And our RB situation was just fine until we traded Jerome Harrison for ANOTHER RUNNING BACK and then it got really crappy? Who made the trade, Tom?

I could cry.

[hermanfontenot]

EDIT - Funny how there is a clamor for "the truth", then complaining about it when we hear it. Like I always say, there are times that they need to lie to the fans. Fans can't handle the truth.

That's the thing: I don't give a rat's ass about Heckert's candor or what he sees as the truth. (And if he's saying Jayme Mitchell is the best pass rusher on the team, well, he'd better hope it isn't the truth because that doesn't say much about his talent evaluation skills.)

His job is to keep his fucking mouth shut and accrue talent. That's it.

[motherscratcher]

EDIT - Funny how there is a clamor for "the truth", then complaining about it when we hear it. Like I always say, there are times that they need to lie to the fans. Fans can't handle the truth.

That's the thing: I don't give a rat's ass about Heckert's candor or what he sees as the truth. (And if he's saying Jayme Mitchell is the best pass rusher on the team, well, he'd better hope it isn't the truth because that doesn't say much about his talent evaluation skills.)

His job is to keep his fucking mouth shut and accrue talent. That's it.

Well, actually, his job is to accrue talent. That's it.

If he does that, I don't give a flying fuck what he says or who he says it to.

And oh, by the way, he did have the best offseason in the last 20 years of our franchise.

And maybe Jayme Mitchell is the best pass rusher on the team. First, how the hell would we know? We've never seen him play. Second, the best pass rusher on the Browns right now is like being the tallest midget in Bainbridge.

[hermanfontenot]

And oh, by the way, he did have the best offseason in the last 20 years of our franchise.

Great offseason by our standards. Average offseason for Pittsburgh or Baltimore. And that trade-up for Monterio Hardesty doesn't look so hot either.

Heckert got a good running back and two decent DBs. Doesn't exactly make him Gil Brandt in his prime.

He needs to do better or we'll run his ass like every other would-be savior that's come through here in the last decade.

[motherscratcher]

And oh, by the way, he did have the best offseason in the last 20 years of our franchise.

Great offseason by our standards. Average offseason for Pittsburgh or Baltimore. And that trade-up for Monterio Hardesty doesn't look so hot either.

Heckert got a good running back and two decent DBs. Doesn't exactly make him Gil Brandt in his prime.

He needs to do better or we'll run his ass like every other would-be savior that's come through here in the last decade.

Don't forget about the franchise QB.

You are right. It looks good by our standards. But, I'll take "looks good" by any standards after the aughts. It's also too early to declare that the only thing we are getting out of the draft is 2 DBs. Don't give up hope, dude.

[mattvan1]

Should be no mystery what-so-ever as to why Holmegren wants everyone to be on the same page - know each other, worked together, same pedigree, same philosophy......

Heckert's comments are less about Mitchell and more about how Mangini and FO never saw eye2eye on anything. Reading between the lines - mucho frustration there.

Was it unprofessional? - yes. But after the last 12 years of the most dysfunctional, unprofessional crap sandwhich of team that has been shoved down our collective throats, it becomes the 2,368th unprofessional thing we have observed.

[jb]

Good thoughts, Matt. Yeah, I don't wanna make TOO much of it. It is one interview. I just don't want to hear the "woe is me" when the lumps strat coming. And to me, this is a little residual version of that from last season, and potentially some premptive spin mixed in with some typical "it's the coaches fault fo rnot using my great players" personnel man speak. Doesn't give me warm-fuzzies. Nor is it the sign of here we go again.

What we do know if that Heckerts likes the potential of the kid WR's benched behind mangini's two two picks. Hope Brian's room is still as he left it in the Falls. ;-) We also know they like Mitchell at one end and Gocong at MLB. For better or for worse, I doubt they look at those as two holes on the team.

Be interesting to see if they go Green - Crick one-two in April. Or darius - hankerson.

Less interested in raking Heckert over the coals than trying to read the tea leaves. Too bad TG didn't ask him about Colt.

[peeker643]

Why do folks trying to minimize or skew what H&H did last spring ALWAYS conveniently leave off guys like Peyton Hillis and Ben Watson as well as Sheldon Brown and Scott Fujita?

People want to bitch that's fine. I expect it when I tune in. But is just an average amount of accuracy too much to ask? I'd respect the take more if they acknowledged the toughness and intelligence the team acquired under H&H while complaining about the 5th rounder or the John St Clair conundrum.

I understand if you want to prove a negative point about the guy you eliminate half his acquisitions or dwell on the ones that didn't work out. But you might want to allude to the free agents signed and the totality of those acquisitions. And I'd probably focus on someone other than a RB who may yet play 7 years at a high level. People won't give a damn about the picks used to move up if Hardesty is a baller for the next 7 seasons.

You still can't fully judge that draft for another two years. Not til you give the later round picks a chance to develop (which they often need or else they wouldn't have been late round picks).

Just saying, credibility is a bitch to get back once it's gone. Here and elsewhere.

[jb]

You still can't fully judge that draft for another two years

Was watchig the post season thinking about the 2007 draft again. Remeber how high we were and how that draft turnd the corner?

Well, we got a great player at a "meh" position and the Inbred got 2 pro bowl quality LBers with worse position and what, two or three less picks spent (can't recall opp cost for Quinn & Eazy ) ?

[hiko]

EDIT - Funny how there is a clamor for "the truth", then complaining about it when we hear it. Like I always say, there are times that they need to lie to the fans. Fans can't handle the truth.

That's the thing: I don't give a rat's ass about Heckert's candor or what he sees as the truth. (And if he's saying Jayme Mitchell is the best pass rusher on the team, well, he'd better hope it isn't the truth because that doesn't say much about his talent evaluation skills.)

His job is to keep his fucking mouth shut and accrue talent. That's it.

Couldn't agree more. Just don't wanna hear anyone whining about being "lied to" then.

(As if I could somehow prevent whining)

And since we didn't have a pass rusher worth a squirt of piss in the first place, saying Mitchell (a dude I've never seen play) is the best pass rusher on the team is kind of like calling UConn the best of the Big East football teams. It could very well be true without meaning that Mitchell is anything more than massively mediocre.

[jb]

Just don't wanna hear anyone whining about being "lied to" then.

coughcoughbullshitcoughcough.

Pretty big extension of trying to tie together two completely disconnected issues here, Hiko. TG did a great job getting the guy on record to communicate what he was thinking. There isn nothing bad or wrong with that.

The fact that Heckert came off as petulent and petty and kicking a dead mon instead of just answering the questions is night and day from whatever point you are trying to make about how it is better if the Browns were run like the Pat Tilman coverup.

His job isn't to just STFU. This is the entertainment industry and BB is wrong. The FO needs to and should communicate with fans through the media and other channels. That is a good thing. And when it comes to the Browns, a franchise product that has lost most of its customer base to another franchise located 200 miles to the southeast, it is imperatve to communicate and try to rebuild the brand and customer base and treat us with respect. The media should do their job and not sit by dumb and deaf while a Butch davis spends 3 seasons destroying the franchise like Nero, which is we now know more or less the case. Or Phil and RAC have Berea looking like a cesspool, as we learned later.

[hermanfontenot]

His job is to keep his fucking mouth shut and accrue talent. That's it.

Couldn't agree more. Just don't wanna hear anyone whining about being "lied to" then.

(As if I could somehow prevent whining)

And since we didn't have a pass rusher worth a squirt of piss in the first place, saying Mitchell (a dude I've never seen play) is the best pass rusher on the team is kind of like calling UConn the best of the Big East football teams. It could very well be true without meaning that Mitchell is anything more than massively mediocre.[/quote]

Can't disagree with any of this, Hiko.

[hiko]

Why do folks trying to minimize or skew what H&H did last spring ALWAYS conveniently leave off guys like Peyton Hillis and Ben Watson as well as Sheldon Brown and Scott Fujita?

People want to bitch that's fine. I expect it when I tune in. But is just an average amount of accuracy too much to ask? I'd respect the take more if they acknowledged the toughness and intelligence the team acquired under H&H while complaining about the 5th rounder or the John St Clair conundrum.

I understand if you want to prove a negative point about the guy you eliminate half his acquisitions or dwell on the ones that didn't work out. But you might want to allude to the free agents signed and the totality of those acquisitions. And I'd probably focus on someone other than a RB who may yet play 7 years at a high level. People won't give a damn about the picks used to move up if Hardesty is a baller for the next 7 seasons.

You still can't fully judge that draft for another two years. Not til you give the later round picks a chance to develop (which they often need or else they wouldn't have been late round picks).

Just saying, credibility is a bitch to get back once it's gone. Here and elsewhere.

Sorry, Peeks, but they gots no choice in the matter. It's part of the entrance exam to join the Circle Jerk of Despair.

Question 1 - In 500 words or less, skew the few minor positives the team can claim into negatives. Bonus points for belittling anything the current regime has done, no matter who it is or how long they've been there. Double secret bonus points if you can call everyone not in the CJoD either "company men" or "groupthink".

Question 2 - Invent a palindrome sentence with the word "God" in it.

Question 3 - What is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

[hiko]

Just don't wanna hear anyone whining about being "lied to" then.

coughcoughbullshitcoughcough.

Pretty big extension of trying to tie together two completely disconnected issues here, Hiko. TG did a great job getting the guy on record to communicate what he was thinking. There isn nothing bad or wrong with that.

The fact that Heckert came off as petulent and petty and kicking a dead mon instead of just answering the questions is night and day from whatever point you are trying to make about how it is better if the Browns were run like the Pat Tilman coverup.

His job isn't to just STFU. This is the entertainment industry and BB is wrong. The FO needs to and should communicate with fans through the media and other channels. That is a good thing. And when it comes to the Browns, a franchise product that has lost most of its customer base to another franchise located 200 miles to the southeast, it is imperatve to communicate and try to rebuild the brand and customer base and treat us with respect. The media should do their job and not sit by dumb and deaf while a Butch davis spends 3 seasons destroying the franchise like Nero, which is we now know more or less the case. Or Phil and RAC have Berea looking like a cesspool, as we learned later.

This may be the entertainment business to you. Personally, that's the part of sports I hate.

Their job is to win fucking games. I don't need to be told how they plan to do it, or why it didn't work before. And I certainly don't need the GM making himself sound like a doosh publicly to justify certain past actions, even if what he says is true. Just go and fucking put together a winning team.

If that includes lying to the fans (telling them they have faith in a QB that they don't have faith in, that the free agent they signed was the best one out there, that the position coach they hired was the one they wanted all along, etc.) then by all means, have a field day.

[peeker643]

Question 3 - What is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?

African or Eurpoean?

[mattvan1]

Why do folks trying to minimize or skew what H&H did last spring ALWAYS conveniently leave off guys like Peyton Hillis and Ben Watson as well as Sheldon Brown and Scott Fujita?

I don't see that anywhere in the thread. Not sure of the context here Brian.

Did I miss something?

[peeker643]

Why do folks trying to minimize or skew what H&H did last spring ALWAYS conveniently leave off guys like Peyton Hillis and Ben Watson as well as Sheldon Brown and Scott Fujita?

I don't see that anywhere in the thread. Not sure of the context here Brian.

Did I miss something?

It was up above somewhere. I think he was better than this. And I think one of the DBs has the chance to be elite while the other is the physical guy people have been begging for back there:

Great offseason by our standards. Average offseason for Pittsburgh or Baltimore. And that trade-up for Monterio Hardesty doesn't look so hot either.

Heckert got a good running back and two decent DBs. Doesn't exactly make him Gil Brandt in his prime.

He needs to do better or we'll run his ass like every other would-be savior that's come through here in the last decade.

[jb]

Just don't wanna hear anyone whining about being "lied to" then.

coughcoughbullshitcoughcough.

Pretty big extension of trying to tie together two completely disconnected issues here, Hiko. TG did a great job getting the guy on record to communicate what he was thinking. There isn nothing bad or wrong with that.

The fact that Heckert came off as petulent and petty and kicking a dead mon instead of just answering the questions is night and day from whatever point you are trying to make about how it is better if the Browns were run like the Pat Tilman coverup.

His job isn't to just STFU. This is the entertainment industry and BB is wrong. The FO needs to and should communicate with fans through the media and other channels. That is a good thing. And when it comes to the Browns, a franchise product that has lost most of its customer base to another franchise located 200 miles to the southeast, it is imperatve to communicate and try to rebuild the brand and customer base and treat us with respect. The media should do their job and not sit by dumb and deaf while a Butch davis spends 3 seasons destroying the franchise like Nero, which is we now know more or less the case. Or Phil and RAC have Berea looking like a cesspool, as we learned later.

This may be the entertainment business to you. Personally, that's the part of sports I hate.

Their job is to win fucking games. I don't need to be told how they plan to do it, or why it didn't work before. And I certainly don't need the GM making himself sound like a doosh publicly to justify certain past actions, even if what he says is true. Just go and fucking put together a winning team.

If that includes lying to the fans (telling them they have faith in a QB that they don't have faith in, that the free agent they signed was the best one out there, that the position coach they hired was the one they wanted all along, etc.) then by all means, have a field day.

Ur just wierd. mang. ;-)

When they win, it is entertaining. I'm not talking about Johnson-Ochocinco-Johnson and assorted nonsense. I'm talking old school winning.

And I still think you skirted the point, or ur missing the positive impact fans can make on a franchise if given the right information.

Example - remember when savage was fired in the Collins' schism? We didn't get the whole story as fans and the reaction was so negative that randy balked. Had it be known what an in-over-his-head twat Opie really was, fans would have gone alone. The media failed. The org didn't communicate.

And it was allowed to be run into the ground that much more.

[mattvan1]

Example - remember when savage was fired in the Collins' schism? We didn't get the whole story as fans and the reaction was so negative that randy balked. Had it be known what an in-over-his-head twat Opie really was, fans would have gone alone. The media failed. The org didn't communicate.

And it was allowed to be run into the ground that much more.

OT, but when you look back at all the failures from Butch to Mangini, everything revolved power, either wanting more or being given too much. Butch, then Phil, then Eric.

As much as all the the recent moves have me really scratching my head, at least there is finally an HMFIC at the top and it seems as if Heckert and Shurmur know their roles and no one has visions of grabbing more control.

[hiko]

And I still think you skirted the point, or ur missing the positive impact fans can make on a franchise if given the right information.

Example - remember when savage was fired in the Collins' schism? We didn't get the whole story as fans and the reaction was so negative that randy balked. Had it be known what an in-over-his-head twat Opie really was, fans would have gone alone. The media failed. The org didn't communicate.

And it was allowed to be run into the ground that much more.

That was Lerner's fault for listening to the fans at all. If he thought the right thing to do was ditch Savage, he should've done it. It's his job to do what's right for the team, not explain it to the fans and clear it with them. Fuck the fans. Who cares what they think? If you aren't winning, a good portion of them will hate every move you make no matter what it is. Some of them will hate every move you make no matter what even if you ARE winning. You don't make decisions based on the noise that silly claptrap is making. You do what you think you have to in order to win - fans be damned.

Winning justifies your actions. If you don't make the right moves to win, it won't matter anyway.

You know the old saying - you listen to the fans, you end up one of them.

So if Heckert feels like explaining his reasoning and actions in a candid manner, whatever. If he chooses to go tight-lipped Mangini-esque, whatever. If he feels like he has to lie about every last thing down to proclaiming that the white shirt he's wearing is blue and the sun rises in the West, so be it. Just build a winner.

The only reason I wish he'd STFU is that what he's saying can't be endearing him to any Free Agents. That's my only beef.

[peeker643]

The only reason I wish he'd STFU is that what he's saying can't be endearing him to any Free Agents. That's my only beef.

Yep- And even that can be overcome with a few more donuts in the paycheck. Bad business but not fatal once. Can't become a habit.

The fans sell that place out (or damn close) every week under these conditions (or damn close) w/o a consistent winner since the '60s. The fans aren't going anywhere.

And Matt- That's a point we agree on as far as an organizational structure. Like where you work or where I work you can debate the merits of the guys running the place, but before a company can be taken seriously I think it needs a structure to fall back on in good times and bad. That's where process is developed, refined and practiced.