Shaun Rogers, Barton, Bowens, Royal, St. Clair released

[Watt]

According to an alert from 19 action news.

Plus Kenyon Coleman at well.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

Rejoice!!

The Browns have started to whittle down their offseason roster, with one big name headlining the list of cuts.

Zac Jackson of FOXSports Ohio reports that defensive tackle Shaun Rogers is among five Browns to be notified they are being released. Also on the cut list: linebacker Eric Barton, linebacker David Bowens, tight end Robert Royal, and tackle John St. Clair.

(UPDATE: The Browns have since confirmed the cuts.)

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... owns-cuts/

[mattvan1]

Like death and taxes - inevitable. New regime - out with old (litteraly and figuratively) and in with the younger and faster. So much for the "Dick Jauron loves him some Shaun Rogers"

No tears from me on these moves.

[motherscratcher]

A little surprised they released Rogers since they're moving from a 3-4 to a 4-3.

4 being more than 3 and all.

[jta1975]

Mangini specials and an overpaid guy. Not earth shattering. Not even Rogers back to back pro bowl years with Dick could save him for 6mil.

[mistero]

Yup, no suprises (well maybe mild suprise with Rogers). Time to get younger and much,much faster on defense.
I almost think we could use every pick on defense and upgrade the WR spot with the best FA we can nab.

[mattvan1]

A little surprised they released Rogers since they're moving from a 3-4 to a 4-3.

4 being more than 3 and all.

Rogers reminds me a bit of Micheal Dean Perry - a 3 technique guy forced to play in a 2 gap D - doesn't put him in a position that could really play to his strengths.

I would have liked to see him kept and used as that Warren Sapp (cut me some latitude - not comparing the two) type guy. But what from what I have read Jauron doesn't utilize a "quick tackle".

JB and Lee brought this up the other day - who are the game changers? Rogers was sometimes one of those, but not consistently enough.

[mistero]

We can start an offense. We have a starting calibre line with Thomas, Steinbach,Mack,Yates and Lauvao.
We have Hillis and Hardesty in the backfield with McCoy. We have Robo, Mo Mass ,Cribbs and Watson.
At least we can start a mediocre offense.

The defense is Rubin, Gocong,Fujita,Maivia, Brown, Haden and Ward. We have nearly gutted the whole thing completely. I don't see how you can avoid using 5 or 6 picks on defense. Expect a bus load a UDFA too.

[motherscratcher]

We can start an offense. We have a starting calibre line with Thomas, Steinbach,Mack,Yates and Lauvao.
We have Hillis and Hardesty in the backfield with McCoy. We have Robo, Mo Mass ,Cribbs and Watson.
At least we can start a mediocre offense.

The defense is Rubin, Gocong,Fujita,Maivia, Brown, Haden and Ward. We have nearly gutted the whole thing completely. I don't see how you can avoid using 5 or 6 picks on defense. Expect a bus load a UDFA too.

Agree that the D needs most of the attention. But that is the exact same offense we ran last year and it is far from mediocre as it stands.

Lauvao couldn't even get playing time at rt guard, much less tackle. Agree he couldn't be any worse than St Clair, but that spot needs an upgrade. And, we definitley need more depth there. We can only hope that the backfield is adequate with a healthy Hardesty and a little less banged up Hillis. We've talked about McCoy plenty around here.

The big issue I have with your post is throwing MoMass, Robo, Cribbs, and Watson up there as somehow mediocre. That is the worst receiving corps in the league.

But , like you said, the D is in even worse shape. We need to Draft D again. Get some FA to plug holes on offense to even approach mediocrity.

[hiko]

A solid farewell to David Bowens, who wasn't the best player, but seemed to be a big part of the few Browns' victories the last few years.

Goodbye also to Shaun Rogers, a talented but confused individual who could've been a contender if he had found a way to overcome his injury issues and his own ego. He was always better suited to a 4-3, but the PowHooBee (Powers Who Be) made him bide his time in Cleveland in a 3-4. His resultant frustation, the un-joy of operating in a 3-4 where his primary duty would be to "take up space", and his inherent disposition towards laziness eventually sent him to this place, and eventually made him expendable.

If you look at what he's done in the past, you scoff at the Cleveland staff as being unable to convince him to give his all. But it looks more like he's done and is fine with it being that way. So if you see him as an injury-prone aging pain in the ass, you cut him.

[mistero]

Yeah, I'm saying our offense is in the D- to F+ range.

Our defensive score is zero point zero, all classes incomplete.

And it's what has to be done. None of those guys are about the future state of this team. This is a total reboot, let's see if they can get it right.

[RedDawg]

Mangini wanted vets and experience on D, and was OK with youth and inexperience on O.

It seems we are doing a 180 and will be looking for a few vet FAs on O, and draft picks on D.

Looks like another 5 win season, or if we are Luck-y, 2 wins and the first overall pick.

[pup]

Lose. Cut. Rebuild. Lose.


Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

[daddywags]

This will seem simplistic (because it is), but IMhO there is no way we should expect anything less than at least a "mediocre" offense next season if Holmgren, Heckert, Shurmur and co. are what they're cracked up to be. Here's the simplistic reasoning:

1. I assume that if our offensive system and playcalling were as inept as folks believe it to have been in 2010, we can at least expect one extra first down every two games in 2011 - 24 extra plays (give or take).

2. We ran 891 offensive plays last season; add 24 equals 915.

3. We can assume that the H, H, and S guys believe we ran the ball too much and passed the ball too little. In fact, we passed on 53.6% of our plays (not including sacks). I'm going to assume this number edges up to 56% of our plays and that sacks remain the same.

4. We averaged 6.7 yards per pass attempt last season - good for 23rd overall in the NFL. I'm assuming our new passing game can up that to 7.0 yards per attempt, which would have been in the middle of the pack (16th) this season. I'm also assuming we keep our running play average the same (4.0).

5. If we do those four things: one extra first down every two games; increase the pass/run ration from 53/47 to 56/44; increase our ypa on pass plays from 6.7 to 7.0; and keep our average ypc on run plays at 4.0, we will increase our total offensive yards from 4635 to 5196. That number would have put us at 21st overall in 2010, 20th in 2009, 18th in 2008, 19th in 2007, and 16th in 2006.

Now, that's not where we ultimately want to end up, but it's at least mediocre and it should be able to be accomplished with our new offensive emphasis even without significant additional investment in talent.

[Believeland]

If Barton, Royal and St.Clair were actually on the team next year I would have serious serious concerns about all levels of the organization. I still find it hard to believe that we couldn't find a practice squad player that could have replaced St.Clair. The guy is the definition of a human well greased turnstile.

[pup]

Why is a team so devoid of defensive talent, making a switch that requires more defensive lineman, cutting the best defensive lineman they have?

For real? Headcase? Who the fuck cares. Be a coach and get through to him.

New England or Pittsburgh gonna get him?

[Gradysmanldy]

They cut Rubin?

[mattvan1]

This will seem simplistic (because it is), but IMhO there is no way we should expect anything less than at least a "mediocre" offense next season if Holmgren, Heckert, Shurmur and co. are what they're cracked up to be. Here's the simplistic reasoning:

1. I assume that if our offensive system and playcalling were as inept as folks believe it to have been in 2010, we can at least expect one extra first down every two games in 2011 - 24 extra plays (give or take).

2. We ran 891 offensive plays last season; add 24 equals 915.

3. We can assume that the H, H, and S guys believe we ran the ball too much and passed the ball too little. In fact, we passed on 53.6% of our plays (not including sacks). I'm going to assume this number edges up to 56% of our plays and that sacks remain the same.

4. We averaged 6.7 yards per pass attempt last season - good for 23rd overall in the NFL. I'm assuming our new passing game can up that to 7.0 yards per attempt, which would have been in the middle of the pack (16th) this season. I'm also assuming we keep our running play average the same (4.0).

5. If we do those four things: one extra first down every two games; increase the pass/run ration from 53/47 to 56/44; increase our ypa on pass plays from 6.7 to 7.0; and keep our average ypc on run plays at 4.0, we will increase our total offensive yards from 4635 to 5196. That number would have put us at 21st overall in 2010, 20th in 2009, 18th in 2008, 19th in 2007, and 16th in 2006.

Now, that's not where we ultimately want to end up, but it's at least mediocre and it should be able to be accomplished with our new offensive emphasis even without significant additional investment in talent.

Nice logic. One addition - an overlooked aspect of the WCO run by Green Bay and Philly is big plays. Would be an interesting debate to discuss if those big plays (meaning you don't really need as many first downs to score) come from the talent or the system. Probably a combo, but as seriosuly effed up as Daboll's approach was, it might be interesting to see what Mass and Robiske and a key FA can do in the WCO.

So yes I agree that we will continue suckage, but not sure the 2 additional first downs per game is an accurate barometer as to why. We need big play-makers on both sides of the ball. Today, we have none.

[pup]

They cut Rubin?

[peeker643]

Why is a team so devoid of defensive talent, making a switch that requires more defensive lineman, cutting the best defensive lineman they have?

For real? Headcase? Who the fuck cares. Be a coach and get through to him.

New England or Pittsburgh gonna get him?

Boy Pup, you have a major hard-on for this club at this time.

Can you remember five plays Rogers made this past season? He was on the field for about 30% of the defensive snaps based on an article someone here quoted.

He'll be 32 in a month. Are his best, most motivated days ahead of him? Will his weight be less of a problem as he gets older? Will his attitude improve? And if it does is it because he sees the end of the line and can't physically be what he was anyway?

Point being if you have a C-grade DL you're paying as an A-grade DL you're paying too much.

I understand the hate toward perennially rebuilding but I'm not sure Rogers is the guy you want to be your poster boy here.

[SoulDawg74]

Why is a team so devoid of defensive talent, making a switch that requires more defensive lineman, cutting the best defensive lineman they have?

For real? Headcase? Who the fuck cares. Be a coach and get through to him.

New England or Pittsburgh gonna get him?

Boy Pup, you have a major hard-on for this club at this time.

Can you remember five plays Rogers made this past season? He was on the field for about 30% of the defensive snaps based on an article someone here quoted.

He'll be 32 in a month. Are his best, most motivated days ahead of him? Will his weight be less of a problem as he gets older? Will his attitude improve? And if it does is it because he sees the end of the line and can't physically be what he was anyway?

Point being if you have a C-grade DL you're paying as an A-grade DL you're paying too much.

I understand the hate toward perennially rebuilding but I'm not sure Rogers is the guy you want to be your poster boy here.

SD:

I'm pretty sure pup is just tired of the bullshit , all economics aside and all things being considered..

The shit does tend to wear on ya especially all these restarts. and your meter just goes off.






SoulDawg

[MikeCheckGW]

With these moves, the Browns will probably go from one of the oldest teams in the league to one of the youngest. If they are gonna lose, then Id rather have them do it with players that have some upside (and therefore a bright future) rather than older veterans, who's best days are behind them. With Coleman and Rogers being cut from an already thin line, I see the Browns using quite a few of their early picks on the D-Line.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

SD....The shit does tend to wear on ya especially all these restarts. and your meter just goes off.

Thats some real irony right there

Imagine having to listen to your QB takes on top of it...

[pup]

Why is a team so devoid of defensive talent, making a switch that requires more defensive lineman, cutting the best defensive lineman they have?

For real? Headcase? Who the fuck cares. Be a coach and get through to him.

New England or Pittsburgh gonna get him?

Boy Pup, you have a major hard-on for this club at this time.

Can you remember five plays Rogers made this past season? He was on the field for about 30% of the defensive snaps based on an article someone here quoted.

He'll be 32 in a month. Are his best, most motivated days ahead of him? Will his weight be less of a problem as he gets older? Will his attitude improve? And if it does is it because he sees the end of the line and can't physically be what he was anyway?

Point being if you have a C-grade DL you're paying as an A-grade DL you're paying too much.

I understand the hate toward perennially rebuilding but I'm not sure Rogers is the guy you want to be your poster boy here.

So we are better off having D-grade DL, as long as we are paying them D-grade prices? In what world?

No complaints from me on the other cuts.

With all the talk about drafting for needs, why go out and create another need? Even if the plan is to draft a DT #1, now you are putting yourself in a spot to need to take multiple DT through the draft and FA. Or eliminate one of those needs because you have a guy currently on the roster (albeit overpaid if he does not play better) that fills that spot.

It is creating a hole, simply to create one. With a roster with so many holes, why?

[peeker643]

Why is a team so devoid of defensive talent, making a switch that requires more defensive lineman, cutting the best defensive lineman they have?

For real? Headcase? Who the fuck cares. Be a coach and get through to him.

New England or Pittsburgh gonna get him?

Boy Pup, you have a major hard-on for this club at this time.

Can you remember five plays Rogers made this past season? He was on the field for about 30% of the defensive snaps based on an article someone here quoted.

He'll be 32 in a month. Are his best, most motivated days ahead of him? Will his weight be less of a problem as he gets older? Will his attitude improve? And if it does is it because he sees the end of the line and can't physically be what he was anyway?

Point being if you have a C-grade DL you're paying as an A-grade DL you're paying too much.

I understand the hate toward perennially rebuilding but I'm not sure Rogers is the guy you want to be your poster boy here.

So we are better off having D-grade DL, as long as we are paying them D-grade prices? In what world?

No complaints from me on the other cuts.

With all the talk about drafting for needs, why go out and create another need? Even if the plan is to draft a DT #1, now you are putting yourself in a spot to need to take multiple DT through the draft and FA. Or eliminate one of those needs because you have a guy currently on the roster (albeit overpaid if he does not play better) that fills that spot.

It is creating a hole, simply to create one. With a roster with so many holes, why?

It's very simple in theory Pup: Shaun Rogers wasn't filling it either and he certainly wasn't not filling it cheaply.

That's it in a nutshell.

[Prosecutor]

Hoynsie says Rogers refused to practice. He would say his ankle or hip hurt all week and then practice on Friday, which is a light day. But he played 15 games. I also recall reading a report that after the Browns started out 0-3 he said, "Season's over, boys".

The Browns won't miss his 17 tackles or two sacks. They won't miss paying him $5 million to set a bad example for the younger guys, either. Good riddance.

I saw the Redskins are talking to him. After all the problems they've had with Haynesworth you'd think that would be the last team to be interested. But they've always been about getting the high profile guys.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

It is creating a hole, simply to create one. With a roster with so many holes, why?

NO. You're wrong again..

It is NOT!

It is an existing hole that needs filled

[pup]

It is creating a hole, simply to create one. With a roster with so many holes, why?

NO. You're wrong again..

It is NOT!

It is an existing hole that needs filled

There will be a less talented DT on this roster in 2011. Guaranteed.

Sometimes, you need to find a way to get something out of a guy. You keep cutting the guys with the talent because you cannot get it out of them, you are going to have poor talent.

If all players gave everything they had all the time, that head coaching thing would be much simpler. But that is part of the job. Instead, Uncle Mike doesn't want his little project having to deal with a "problem", so we cut him. And he will sign elsewhere, play for a coach who understands maximizing the talent he has and flourish.

[peeker643]

It is creating a hole, simply to create one. With a roster with so many holes, why?

NO. You're wrong again..

It is NOT!

It is an existing hole that needs filled

There will be a less talented DT on this roster in 2011. Guaranteed.

Sometimes, you need to find a way to get something out of a guy. You keep cutting the guys with the talent because you cannot get it out of them, you are going to have poor talent.

If all players gave everything they had all the time, that head coaching thing would be much simpler. But that is part of the job. Instead, Uncle Mike doesn't want his little project having to deal with a "problem", so we cut him. And he will sign elsewhere, play for a coach who understands maximizing the talent he has and flourish.

Maybe his 3rd time/team is the charm.

Like I said, I'm sure he'll be a completely different guy as he hits 32. Good luck to him.

You're concerned more with talent than production Pup. They don't mean the same thing.
That 'less talented' DL that takes Rogers' spot is still likely to be more productive and less destructive than Rogers was/is/will likely always be.

Because Shaun didn't/doesn't/won't set the bar all that high.

YMMV

[SoulDawg74]

It is creating a hole, simply to create one. With a roster with so many holes, why?

NO. You're wrong again..

It is NOT!

It is an existing hole that needs filled

There will be a less talented DT on this roster in 2011. Guaranteed.

Sometimes, you need to find a way to get something out of a guy. You keep cutting the guys with the talent because you cannot get it out of them, you are going to have poor talent.

If all players gave everything they had all the time, that head coaching thing would be much simpler. But that is part of the job. Instead, Uncle Mike doesn't want his little project having to deal with a "problem", so we cut him. And he will sign elsewhere, play for a coach who understands maximizing the talent he has and flourish.

Maybe his 3rd time/team is the charm.

Like I said, I'm sure he'll be a completely different guy as he hits 32. Good luck to him.

You're concerned more with talent than production Pup. They don't mean the same thing.
That 'less talented' DL that takes Rogers' spot is still likely to be more productive and less destructive than Rogers was/is/will likely always be.

Because Shaun didn't/doesn't/won't set the bar all that high.

YMMV

SD:

While I wholeheartedly agree about the economics of this situation , at some point the Browns will have to address pups point that we have to start getting something out of these aging stars as other teams seem to be able to do .

We must break that cycle of suck and get production from these guys the way other teams are able to do without jettisoning all that experience and leadership with every fresh wash and reset.

Something is very wrong with what we're doing , after 12 years in the league we have no base and still no identity.

SoulDawg

[RedDawg]

We didn't trade Rogers because nobody wanted him.

Making ridiculous tradeup/tradedown suggestions or saying we should get something in return for a guy we are going to cut anyway is a waste of time.

Welcome to reality. He's old, he's lazy, and what little gas he has in the tank isn't going to help enough to justify using a roster slot that can be filled with a guy that might actually play in 2014.

We cut all those older players because nobody would give us anything for them.

[antikryct]

Seems to me it's a bit unrealistic to compare ourselves to "those teams" that just seem to "get it out of them." How many of those teams are there...other than the Patriots? It's going to take more than a coach to get Rogers playing at a dominant level.

If he goes to the Redskins, he may have 1-2 good years. It won't be the coaching that gets him those years. It will be the change of scenery. He had a couple of those seasons with us early on. Lately we're getting out of Rogers what Detroit got from him in his last years there. If he goes to the Patriots, no doubt he'll have as many good seasons as his body will allow him. It won't be the coaching staff there either, it will be a combination of younger players pushing him while not wanting to let his fellow vets down.

People are people and the book is out on Rogers. We're not going to get those seasons out of him and our coaching, or lack thereof is not to blame. We don't have the infrastructure...it needs to be built. We have to start winning and we have a long road ahead of us. When we're in the hunt in January year in and year out, we won't be talking about coaches getting more out of players. They will either fit or they won't.

[hiko]

He will sign elsewhere, probably for an already established playoff team. He will play hard for that team, because he wants to win. He's also old, hurt, and was really expensive for the Browns. He won't make $7 mil a season elsewhere, especially not for an established winner.

In the end, he was useless to the Browns because he's one of those guys that tanks it when things aren't going his way, and it's unlikely that the 2011 Browns will be much better. So if he's old, hurt, a pain in the ass, and basically useless to your team, I guess you cut him. Personally, I would've held onto the guy and seen what the CBA brought, but I don't see why The Long and Whining Road is going ballistic over a guy that produced jack shit for the Cleveland Browns last year - and didn't even really try.

It's the Braylon Edwards thing all over again. If he's useless to you, he's useless to you. No amount of bullshit "the coaches should use mind-voodoo to get it out of him" is gonna change that. Prima donnas are prima donnas. They're real nice to have if you have a winning team. They're usually a pain in the ass if you don't. You have to decide if they're good enough - important enough to the team - to put up with.

The Browns decided he wasn't. Sure, he might get replaced by a less overall talented DT, but I almost guarantee they get more actual production out of the guy.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

He will sign elsewhere, probably for an already established playoff team. He will play hard for that team, because he wants to win. He's also old, hurt, and was really expensive for the Browns. He won't make $7 mil a season elsewhere, especially not for an established winner.

In the end, he was useless to the Browns because he's one of those guys that tanks it when things aren't going his way, and it's unlikely that the 2011 Browns will be much better. So if he's old, hurt, a pain in the ass, and basically useless to your team, I guess you cut him. Personally, I would've held onto the guy and seen what the CBA brought, but I don't see why The Long and Whining Road is going ballistic over a guy that produced jack shit for the Cleveland Browns last year - and didn't even really try.

It's the Braylon Edwards thing all over again. If he's useless to you, he's useless to you. No amount of bullshit "the coaches should use mind-voodoo to get it out of him" is gonna change that. Prima donnas are prima donnas. They're real nice to have if you have a winning team. They're usually a pain in the ass if you don't. You have to decide if they're good enough - important enough to the team - to put up with.

The Browns decided he wasn't. Sure, he might get replaced by a less overall talented DT, but I almost guarantee they get more actual production out of the guy.

Hopefully thats the last nail in that coffin ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I have only one word to describe my feelings...Sidelin to sideline Youtes

[SoulDawg74]

We didn't trade Rogers because nobody wanted him.

Making ridiculous tradeup/tradedown suggestions or saying we should get something in return for a guy we are going to cut anyway is a waste of time.

Welcome to reality. He's old, he's lazy, and what little gas he has in the tank isn't going to help enough to justify using a roster slot that can be filled with a guy that might actually play in 2014.

We cut all those older players because nobody would give us anything for them.

SD:

No shit Einstein, thats the only reason huh.

Well what a surprise its not that simple

ie , until a new CBA is signed there can be no trades of players only picks ......

Rodgers will garner interest ( as in DC already ) because he can still play , he's originally a 43 DT and starred under Jauron but was cut for reasons beyond cap clearing .




SoulDawg

[mattvan1]

Rodgers will garner interest ( as in DC already ) because he can still play , he's originally a 43 DT and starred under Jauron but was cut for reasons beyond cap clearing .

SoulDawg

DC? Didn't really work out well with Rat and Shaun's younger, more talented brother Albert, did it?

My bet is club Romeo in KC.

Maybe we should sign TO and Moss and Kam Wimbley because they, at one time, had talent?

I do agree that Rogers is a game changer, POTENTIALLY, but by the time we are going to be competitive the guy wil be 35 or 36. You are right about the fact that this was more than just cap. This was about sending a message. A G. Warren type of message.

[peeker643]

Speaking of Haynesworth, he continues to have a banner few months: http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/02/12/vir ... tml?hpt=T2

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Speaking of Haynesworth, he continues to have a banner few months: http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/02/12/vir ... tml?hpt=T2

What an asshole.

He must be to imporatant and rich to wait behind some other driver

[pup]

The WORST part of this entire thread. You guys are all buying back into another 3 year plan to become competitive. Some of you are turning into the sheep that follow Shapiro a couple of boards up.

[mattvan1]

The WORST part of this entire thread. You guys are all buying back into another 3 year plan to become competitive. Some of you are turning into the sheep that follow Shapiro a couple of boards up.

It's taken me 6 weeks, thousands of written words, arguments, name calling, hijacked threads, and way too many PMs to finally reach acceptance on the new coaching hires and the change of direction on both sides of the ball. Part of my combativeness was the frustratingly vicious anger I had knowing we're staring down the barrel of 3 more years of floundering.

But it's happened. Holmgren made his decisions, and like it or not, there's not a thing that can be done except to look at the new situation as objectively as possible and hope for the best. It's yet another rebuild. Another philosophy. Another scheme on both O and D. Mangini "guys" are out and H&H "guys" will be brought in. Buzzards returning to Hinckley. The Circle of Life. Whatever the fuck ever. It just is.

I really wish it were different. But it's not.

[SoulDawg74]

We didn't trade Rogers because nobody wanted him.

Making ridiculous tradeup/tradedown suggestions or saying we should get something in return for a guy we are going to cut anyway is a waste of time.

Welcome to reality. He's old, he's lazy, and what little gas he has in the tank isn't going to help enough to justify using a roster slot that can be filled with a guy that might actually play in 2014.

We cut all those older players because nobody would give us anything for them.

SD:

You can't prove nobody wanted him stoopid , but you can say without a doubt as fact , you can't trade any player at this date until there is a new collective bargaining agreement .

One for me none for you.


SoulDawg

[SoulDawg74]

Rodgers will garner interest ( as in DC already ) because he can still play , he's originally a 43 DT and starred under Jauron but was cut for reasons beyond cap clearing .

SoulDawg

DC? Didn't really work out well with Rat and Shaun's younger, more talented brother Albert, did it?

My bet is club Romeo in KC.

Maybe we should sign TO and Moss and Kam Wimbley because they, at one time, had talent?

I do agree that Rogers is a game changer, POTENTIALLY, but by the time we are going to be competitive the guy wil be 35 or 36. You are right about the fact that this was more than just cap. This was about sending a message. A G. Warren type of message.

SD:

5.5 million is nothing for a DT of rodgers skill, which is pups complaint.

We dump and turnover talent without amassing any , so we're always starting over .

yeah yeah I know Rodgers was old long of tooth bad attitude etc etc etc , that is not the point .

Its the lack of culture where we don't develop long term Brown veterans thru all this change .

Only Dawson has been the constant and that's pitiful.


SoulDawg

[SoulDawg74]

The WORST part of this entire thread. You guys are all buying back into another 3 year plan to become competitive. Some of you are turning into the sheep that follow Shapiro a couple of boards up.

It's taken me 6 weeks, thousands of written words, arguments, name calling, hijacked threads, and way too many PMs to finally reach acceptance on the new coaching hires and the change of direction on both sides of the ball. Part of my combativeness was the frustratingly vicious anger I had knowing we're staring down the barrel of 3 more years of floundering.

But it's happened. Holmgren made his decisions, and like it or not, there's not a thing that can be done except to look at the new situation as objectively as possible and hope for the best. It's yet another rebuild. Another philosophy. Another scheme on both O and D. Mangini "guys" are out and H&H "guys" will be brought in. Buzzards returning to Hinckley. The Circle of Life. Whatever the fuck ever. It just is.

I really wish it were different. But it's not.

SD:

I coulda bought into this program "IF" they had shit canned the mangy one proper when they got here , instead they served him up as scapegoat for a shit roster they knew was shit , but didn't want to take responsibility for , so they scapegaoted mangy and drafted all generic pieces which fit their 43 but didn't really provide him any help in the draft with specific 34 impact players.

Now they clear the deck of all the sucktitude they supposedly didn't see a year ago .

Buy themselves a mulligan and enjoy the luxury of the clock starting on their regime a full year after taking over and in effect wasting a damn year resplete with trottiing out a weak armed fan pet, who wouldn't make the practice squad on a good team as the defacto QB starter.

Barnum and Bailey didn't have nothing on these huskers.



SoulDawg

[peeker643]

Rodgers will garner interest ( as in DC already ) because he can still play , he's originally a 43 DT and starred under Jauron but was cut for reasons beyond cap clearing .

SoulDawg

DC? Didn't really work out well with Rat and Shaun's younger, more talented brother Albert, did it?

My bet is club Romeo in KC.

Maybe we should sign TO and Moss and Kam Wimbley because they, at one time, had talent?

I do agree that Rogers is a game changer, POTENTIALLY, but by the time we are going to be competitive the guy wil be 35 or 36. You are right about the fact that this was more than just cap. This was about sending a message. A G. Warren type of message.

SD:

5.5 million is nothing for a DT of rodgers skill, which is pups complaint.

We dump and turnover talent without amassing any , so we're always starting over .

yeah yeah I know Rodgers was old long of tooth bad attitude etc etc etc , that is not the point .

Its the lack of culture where we don't develop long term Brown veterans thru all this change .

Only Dawson has been the constant and that's pitiful.


SoulDawg

Dawson's gone too. Matter of when.

And Holmgren wasn't ever going to instill his culture with Mangini's underachieving DT and old LBs.

Shaun Rogers will go down in history as a disappointing player with talent that he got the least out of because of a shitty attitude. He ain't the first.

Production over underachieving talent all day, every day. Now if you want to show me talent that achieves at it's level or beyond we'll see wins. If you can't figure that out there ain't no sense going on.

I cried while watching Shaun Rogers half-ass it here, not when he finally was let the fuck go.

You're right about Tribe boards Pup. The Rogers love reminds of every time the Indians deal one of their prospects. Red eyes and heartburn when the guy never did much of anything at all.

[Triple-S]

The WORST part of this entire thread. You guys are all buying back into another 3 year plan to become competitive. Some of you are turning into the sheep that follow Shapiro a couple of boards up.

I don't really expect anything more out of this org. at this point.

Bad Drafting, and just bad luck has killed this franchise ever since it's brought back.

The depth of the roster is so bad, that once a single guy on either side of the ball goes down, you can kiss having a competitive team good-bye at that point in the season. AND IT ALWAYS DOES, NO FAIL. With the exception of '07, the tale of the tape has been injuries to starters and guys not being able to step up.

What I would like to see worked on, in this throw-away season, get some depth.

[SoulDawg74]

Rodgers will garner interest ( as in DC already ) because he can still play , he's originally a 43 DT and starred under Jauron but was cut for reasons beyond cap clearing .

SoulDawg

DC? Didn't really work out well with Rat and Shaun's younger, more talented brother Albert, did it?

My bet is club Romeo in KC.

Maybe we should sign TO and Moss and Kam Wimbley because they, at one time, had talent?

I do agree that Rogers is a game changer, POTENTIALLY, but by the time we are going to be competitive the guy wil be 35 or 36. You are right about the fact that this was more than just cap. This was about sending a message. A G. Warren type of message.

SD:

5.5 million is nothing for a DT of rodgers skill, which is pups complaint.

We dump and turnover talent without amassing any , so we're always starting over .

yeah yeah I know Rodgers was old long of tooth bad attitude etc etc etc , that is not the point .

Its the lack of culture where we don't develop long term Brown veterans thru all this change .

Only Dawson has been the constant and that's pitiful.


SoulDawg

Dawson's gone too. Matter of when.

And Holmgren wasn't ever going to instill his culture with Mangini's underachieving DT and old LBs.

Shaun Rogers wil go down in history as a disappointing player with talent that he got the least out of because of a shitty attitude. He ain't the first.

Production over underachieving talent all day, every day. Now if you want to show me talent that achieves at it's level or beyond and we'll see wins. If you can't figure that out there ain't no sense going on.

I cried while watching Shaun Rogers half-ass it here, not when he finally was let the fuck go.

You're right about Tribe boards Pup. The Rogers love reminds of every time the Indians deal one of their prospects. Red eyes and heartburn when the guy never did much if anything at all.

SD:

Hell peeks your smart enough to know pup ain't complaining about the release of rodgers and neither am I,..

Its the pat ready made tried and true out with the old in with the knew program we've seen repeated around here all to often .

After 11 years in the league we're again demolishing the very foundations , and can't get to the first floor because all the basement walls are gone .

Groundhog day we are the Browns.


SoulDawg

[peeker643]

Buy themselves a mulligan and enjoy the luxury of the clock starting on their regime a full year after taking over and in effect wasting a damn year resplete with trottiing out a weak armed fan pet, who wouldn't make the practice squad on a good team as the defacto QB starter.

SoulDawg

Where's that Sanchize v. Franchise thread again?

C'mon man. Every time you bust that out you're basically admitting you can't help falling in and out of love with these guys every single week.

How did a man who is such a self-proclaimed QB know it all fall in love with a weak armed fan pet who wouldn't make the practice squad. I try and take your stuff seriously and I know you know the game but daaaaamn......

Superb play when it counts to make it count, thats what we got Sunday , led by our Mule team running back Hillis and our throrobred Stallion Franchise QB in the making McCoy.

Its what you want , a kid dissed by all with a chip on his shoulder something to prove and winning for us ,toss the salt over your shoulders rub your rabbitts foot and slap yourself the Cleveland Browns done finally found a quarterback.

That was beautiful and touching. It moved me then and moves me now but it doesn't show much consistency.

The team mounts up buckles their chinstraps and responds to this kids leadership , the coaches have daring the defense is stout and the team displays unbeleivable heart .

You can't put a formula to it and you can't define it , butt neither can you any longer ignore it .

The Browns got a diamond out of the dust bin uncut, and rough butt tuff as a three dollar steak and hard as concrete cut nail ,mentally ready to battle and more than prepared to lead .

Oh my goodness. That could have been cleaned up and sent out by Colt's agent.

Busting balls my man. If I could sell you that thread so you could burn it I would. But it would cost ya few bucks and a case of beer.

[peeker643]

Rodgers will garner interest ( as in DC already ) because he can still play , he's originally a 43 DT and starred under Jauron but was cut for reasons beyond cap clearing .

SoulDawg

DC? Didn't really work out well with Rat and Shaun's younger, more talented brother Albert, did it?

My bet is club Romeo in KC.

Maybe we should sign TO and Moss and Kam Wimbley because they, at one time, had talent?

I do agree that Rogers is a game changer, POTENTIALLY, but by the time we are going to be competitive the guy wil be 35 or 36. You are right about the fact that this was more than just cap. This was about sending a message. A G. Warren type of message.

SD:

5.5 million is nothing for a DT of rodgers skill, which is pups complaint.

We dump and turnover talent without amassing any , so we're always starting over .

yeah yeah I know Rodgers was old long of tooth bad attitude etc etc etc , that is not the point .

Its the lack of culture where we don't develop long term Brown veterans thru all this change .

Only Dawson has been the constant and that's pitiful.


SoulDawg

Dawson's gone too. Matter of when.

And Holmgren wasn't ever going to instill his culture with Mangini's underachieving DT and old LBs.

Shaun Rogers wil go down in history as a disappointing player with talent that he got the least out of because of a shitty attitude. He ain't the first.

Production over underachieving talent all day, every day. Now if you want to show me talent that achieves at it's level or beyond and we'll see wins. If you can't figure that out there ain't no sense going on.

I cried while watching Shaun Rogers half-ass it here, not when he finally was let the fuck go.

You're right about Tribe boards Pup. The Rogers love reminds of every time the Indians deal one of their prospects. Red eyes and heartburn when the guy never did much if anything at all.

SD:

Hell peeks your smart enough to know pup ain't complaining about the release of rodgers and neither am I,..

Its the pat ready made tried and true out with the old in with the knew program we've seen repeated around here all to often .

After 11 years in the league we're again demolishing the very foundations , and can't get to the first floor because all the basement walls are gone .

Groundhog day we are the Browns.


SoulDawg

No. Pup is complaining about the release of Rogers. Otherwise Pup would have just said he's sick and tired of 11 years of slop and he's had enough.

He didn't. He said they shouldn't have released Rogers.

I disagree heartily. I watched him not get on the field and not make plays way too often the past couple years to think he was anywhere close to worth what they were paying him.

That's entirely different in my mind then this shit has been going on too long (and it has).

[Fire Marshall Bill]

Buy themselves a mulligan and enjoy the luxury of the clock starting on their regime a full year after taking over and in effect wasting a damn year resplete with trottiing out a weak armed fan pet, who wouldn't make the practice squad on a good team as the defacto QB starter.

SoulDawg

Where's that Sanchize v. Franchise thread again?

C'mon man. Every time you bust that out you're basically admitting you can't help falling in and out of love with these guys every single week.

How did a man who is such a self-proclaimed QB know it all fall in love with a weak armed fan pet who wouldn't make the practice squad. I try and take your stuff seriously and I know you know the game but daaaaamn......

Superb play when it counts to make it count, thats what we got Sunday , led by our Mule team running back Hillis and our throrobred Stallion Franchise QB in the making McCoy.

Its what you want , a kid dissed by all with a chip on his shoulder something to prove and winning for us ,toss the salt over your shoulders rub your rabbitts foot and slap yourself the Cleveland Browns done finally found a quarterback.

Stop man. You either have no cred re: QB play or people have no where to go OTHER than think you're a gushing fan bois falling in and out of love every few hours with a new kid on the block.

Although, that was beautiful and touching. It moved me then and moves me now but it doesn't show much consistency.

The team mounts up buckles their chinstraps and responds to this kids leadership , the coaches have daring the defense is stout and the team displays unbeleivable heart .

You can't put a formula to it and you can't define it , butt neither can you any longer ignore it .

The Browns got a diamond out of the dust bin uncut, and rough butt tuff as a three dollar steak and hard as concrete cut nail ,mentally ready to battle and more than prepared to lead .

Oh my goodness. That could have been cleaned up and sent out by Colt's agent.

Busting balls my man. If I could sell you that thread so you could burn it I would. But it would cost ya few bucks and a case of beer.

This is so spot on its actually sickening...

If anyone had enuff space on their hard drive to save SD's QB takes of the last 10 yrs we'd see this AC/DC take on every single QB that has suited up in college and the NFL

I'd bet real money there would even be one that pimped Quinn at one time or another

[SoulDawg74]

Buy themselves a mulligan and enjoy the luxury of the clock starting on their regime a full year after taking over and in effect wasting a damn year resplete with trottiing out a weak armed fan pet, who wouldn't make the practice squad on a good team as the defacto QB starter.

SoulDawg

Where's that Sanchize v. Franchise thread again?

C'mon man. Every time you bust that out you're basically admitting you can't help falling in and out of love with these guys every single week.

How did a man who is such a self-proclaimed QB know it all fall in love with a weak armed fan pet who wouldn't make the practice squad. I try and take your stuff seriously and I know you know the game but daaaaamn......

Superb play when it counts to make it count, thats what we got Sunday , led by our Mule team running back Hillis and our throrobred Stallion Franchise QB in the making McCoy.

Its what you want , a kid dissed by all with a chip on his shoulder something to prove and winning for us ,toss the salt over your shoulders rub your rabbitts foot and slap yourself the Cleveland Browns done finally found a quarterback.

Stop man. You either have no cred re: QB play or people have no where to go OTHER than think you're a gushing fan bois falling in and out of love every few hours with a new kid on the block.

Although, that was beautiful and touching. It moved me then and moves me now but it doesn't show much consistency.

The team mounts up buckles their chinstraps and responds to this kids leadership , the coaches have daring the defense is stout and the team displays unbeleivable heart .

You can't put a formula to it and you can't define it , butt neither can you any longer ignore it .

The Browns got a diamond out of the dust bin uncut, and rough butt tuff as a three dollar steak and hard as concrete cut nail ,mentally ready to battle and more than prepared to lead .

Oh my goodness. That could have been cleaned up and sent out by Colt's agent.

Busting balls my man. If I could sell you that thread so you could burn it I would. But it would cost ya few bucks and a case of beer.

This is so spot on its actually sickening...

If anyone had enuff space on their hard drive to save SD's QB takes of the last 10 yrs we'd see this AC/DC take on every single QB that has suited up in college and the NFL

I'd bet real money there would even be one that pimped Quinn at one time or another

SD:

Never said Colt didn't have good intangibles , and in ideal weather before teams got film on him , he had begun to look like we might have the answer, but as the seaon progressed the weather got worse and defenses developed film cracks in the mirror appeared as the smoke cleared.

The last two games his passer ratings were below supbar with neither above the 50 % mark IIRC with his resultant play looking even worse than those horrid stats .

Dude was exposed , it wasn't an analmoly and it can't be airbrushed into fantasy no matter how much we can wish it didn't happen.

In a passing league if your QB has wing problems and can't make all the throws and flat out just beat defenses you got some serious problems even if the rest of his Personna is John Wayne reborn.

People forget I like Colt and what he brings to the table , but i love the Browns more than any single player .....and won't spout out sugary praise for any of them when they're playing like shit and it shows.

SoulDawg