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60 minutes 12/19

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60 minutes 12/19

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:14 pm

Anybody see it?

Possible judgment coming for individual states, lots of them, in terms of truly having to deal with the reality of the recession we've seemingly convinced ourselves we're pulling out of. A main focus of the story was state deficits and spending significantly more than they take in from taxes, public sector benefits and pensions being amongst the larger reasons for some states.

Ohio isn't at the top of the list but things are still bad enough to where we're in the top half.

So it raises a question, when do we start talking seriously about whether or not to make major cuts on the public sector benefits and retirements? Joe Blow in the private sector has had to take it in the ass on this issue in the past 24 months (most 401K were all but evaporated, few private sector pensions anymore either), but not so much Joe Blow with the government job. Do we talk cuts or elimination of some all together? It actually raises the question, how much responsibility should employers period really have in a person's retirement plans?

NJ Governor was on and they showed him in a town meeting with the teachers union, really loved his approach. Teachers says "you're not reimbursing me for my education and you've not kept up with pay raises"...governor replies "have you thought about not doing this anymore". Sounds cold and arrogant, but damn if it isn't reality, I mean it is for the private sector.

Sucks b/c in a way it pits everyday people against each other.
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Re: 60 minutes 12/19

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:35 pm

They also talked about the part where the state government NJ hasn't made its own payment obligations toward the pension funds 13 out of the last 14 years.

And now they want to hammer the common worker and blame it all on the state workers.

There's certainly a need for sacrifice, but if these guys want to declare war on the unions they will get it, and it will be nasty for everyone.
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Re: 60 minutes 12/19

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:58 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:They also talked about the part where the state government NJ hasn't made its own payment obligations toward the pension funds 13 out of the last 14 years.

And now they want to hammer the common worker and blame it all on the state workers.

There's certainly a need for sacrifice, but if these guys want to declare war on the unions they will get it, and it will be nasty for everyone.
I'm not going to pretend to know the situation in NJ, but let's face it, there comes a time when we have to consider tightening the screws on cushy jobs and the benefits that go with them. Some of these govt. jobs (teaching being one of them) have some ridiculous benefit and retirement packages, funded by private sector folks, who are losing their own retirements and benefits.

Let's remember as well, a big difference in the private v. public sector is just like the difference in direct v. indirect taxation. Private : indirect :: public : direct. There is a bit of a built in advantage for the public sector in that regard.

Like I said it often creates a you verse me situation that is undesirable for the benefit of a community, local or statewide.
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Re: 60 minutes 12/19

Unread postby dem425 » Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:27 am

Some of these govt. jobs (teaching being one of them) have some ridiculous benefit and retirement packages, funded by private sector folks, who are losing their own retirements and benefits.


Only saw a few minutes of the program. I'm confused by the above quote. Did they say in that program that teaching is a gov't job?...........I thought it was funded by school levies and public taxes that are voted on.......
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Re: 60 minutes 12/19

Unread postby jerryroche » Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:46 am

dem425 wrote:
Only saw a few minutes of the program. I'm confused by the above quote. Did they say in that program that teaching is a gov't job?...........I thought it was funded by school levies and public taxes that are voted on....


Teaching in public schools is a government job, funded in large part by state and local taxes -- but since the Department of Education was formed in 1980, it allocates certain federal monies to the states for the purpose of funding educational initiatives.

Public employee unions actually started in 1958 at the whim of the mayor of New York City, who wrote an executive order because he needed votes from the potential large bloc of city employees. Other city and state officials logically followed suit in the ensuing years. Today, public union employees far outnumber union members in the private sector.

I don't have any problem with the pensions established for members of the armed forces or safety (police, fire) personnel. But don't the unbelievably liberal pensions for almost ALL government employees sound unfair, since most of us are paying for their retirement while at the same time having to contribute to our own retirement plans? Plus, we gotta wait until we're 65 (or 40-45 years in the workforce) to access our 401(k)s without penalty, while government employees generally can retire with full benefits after just 30 years' service. That just plain sucks, IMHO.
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Re: 60 minutes 12/19

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:33 am

Ohio PERS has been working on a reform proposal for the past year and a half, which will soon be presented to the Ohio General Assembly. The state also enacted many measures during the last budget cycle which froze or cut both wages and salaries for state and government workers as well as instituted furlough days.
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Re: 60 minutes 12/19

Unread postby dem425 » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:50 am

Because I have two daughters who are teachers, I was somewhat sensitive to comparing public school treachers with some slack-jawed politician who votes for their own raises, has excellent lifetime healthcare benefits and create those golden parachutes that make them instant millionaires (if they weren't already)..............

One of my daughters teach in an "inner-ring" suburb high school. Certainly, I believe her contribution to society far exceeds that of the throngs of bureacrats that infect our local, state and federal governments.

If a radical reform is currently in place (as mentioned ref: PERS), then continue that, along with leaving no other government employees' stone unturned. Once that has been accomplished, with significant results, then public/private school teachers can take their turn in the woodshed........
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Re: 60 minutes 12/19

Unread postby FUDU » Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:28 pm

I could have done a better job of wording that dem, while some teaching jobs are in fact govt. jobs, many are not.

But as already mentioned above, the point was more in that they are funded by taxes (direct taxation to be specific) which means one has no choice but to pay it. Adding significant stability and security to that public sector job, as with many.

Plus I agree with you with it should start at the top with the reps and law makers, no doubt.

Which is why I ask, to what degree should an employer (regardless of which sector) be responsible for a current or former employees retirement? B/C at this moment most of what is in place is virtually unsustainable, particularly in the public sector.
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Re: 60 minutes 12/19

Unread postby FUDU » Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:17 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Ohio PERS has been working on a reform proposal for the past year and a half, which will soon be presented to the Ohio General Assembly. The state also enacted many measures during the last budget cycle which froze or cut both wages and salaries for state and government workers as well as instituted furlough days.

IIRC didn't these people have the opportunity to vote on their options, as far as losing X amount of jobs OR everyone being forced to take on more furlough days? The results being people actually voted to take a chance on losing their job, do I have that right GHCS?
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Re: 60 minutes 12/19

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:54 pm

I am not sure how the options were presented to various state employee unions. Here's an article from summer 2009 about the State's concession requests of state employees:

The state has asked workers in its largest labor union to accept a 5 percent across-the-board pay cut, a shorter work week and unpaid holidays to help balance the state's troubled budget, according to a document obtained by The Plain Dealer.


http://blog.cleveland.com/openers/2009/ ... y_req.html

I don't know how much of that was changed in negotiations. There were also I believe ~ 5K state jobs eliminated. I have a friend who works for City of Cleveland who has several furlough days this year and next. Not sure of pay cut or freeze. That is not a state employee, but it is an example of the concessions being made by public employees.

Myself, I work for a library represented by a union. We had negotiations in fall '08. We went in (at least I did) with a concessionary attitude. I thought we would lose more than we did. All employees here (even management) took a 3% paycut among other things. We were lucky not to lose hours of service (some of my co-workers will tell you otherwise) or jobs. Our materials budget has been cut, but we can still offer what we've been offering, just a bit less of it. Many other libraries around the state suffered branch closings, layoffs, pay cuts, reduction in hours, a smaller materials budget, or a combination of all of them. A large number reacted by putting a local levy up for vote, and most of those passed. So the tax burden was simply passed down from the state level.

I fully anticipate libraries to suffer more cuts in the upcoming budget. I believe schools will be hacked to bits. Pension funds will be attacked and probably stolen out from under people, just as has been happening in the public sector.
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Re: 60 minutes 12/19

Unread postby FUDU » Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:41 pm

I am completely against reneging on pensions due, IMO it is as low a crime as any out there. However I am not against looking at current employees and making cuts to their pensions and other benefits.

Not sure if the double dipping in the police and fire depts. is still acceptable but that is another area that IMO must be prohibited.

I think libraries are on the brink of extinction myself, not saying I like it but I can understand the arguments both for and against, and I agree education is going to get creamed in the near future IMO.
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Re: 60 minutes 12/19

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:36 pm

Raise taxes on the top 10% of the state to what they were pre Reagan, not allow Cap And Trade to be enforced in Ohio, and leave the working man (union or not) the fuck alone.
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Re: 60 minutes 12/19

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:13 pm

FUDU wrote:NJ Governor was on and they showed him in a town meeting with the teachers union, really loved his approach. Teachers says "you're not reimbursing me for my education and you've not kept up with pay raises"...governor replies "have you thought about not doing this anymore". Sounds cold and arrogant, but damn if it isn't reality, I mean it is for the private sector.


I wasn't quite sure how to take that comment. I know for sure I wouldn't want my kid in NJ public schools in a few years, because that is exactly what is going to happen. And in 2014, the government is going to have to figure out how to run schools themselves anyway, so we'll see what Governor Christie does when he has few qualified employees to run hundreds of schools.

And I fully expect to lose benefits in the next few years, and probably search for another line of work. Lots of teachers have multiple degrees and will be gobbling up any open jobs. Then we'll see what happens to national unemployment rate. How many jobs require degrees? What percent of unemployed people have degrees? Then flood an already weak job market with people with Masters degrees, above average people skills, and years of work experience. Who is going to lose out in that battle?

More importantly it will destroy pre-professional teaching programs. There won't be a math or science teacher to be found anywhere. I ask myself everyday why I didn't take the 2 extra classes for my bio degree and go right into grad school and research. More money and almost zero comparative hassle.

Not the right way to go by the gentleman from NJ.
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Re: 60 minutes 12/19

Unread postby danwismar » Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:06 am

I'm married to a retired teacher and benefit from her generous pension, and I'm also generally sympathetic to the idea that we should reward teachers and pay them well as a way to attract quality people to the profession....but...

I also believe that the central political challenge of the next few decades is to deal with the fact that we have too many people in the public cart and too few people pulling it. And the cart doesn't need to be just slowed down, it needs to be put in reverse, or we're all in big effin trouble.

Here are a couple of things to read if anyone's interested. The first link is to a National Affairs article of fairly recent vintage. The second is a 2005 City Journal piece that, while a bit dated, does a great job of explaining how we got where we are with public sector unions.

http://nationalaffairs.com/publications ... tor-unions

http://www.city-journal.org/html/15_4_taxpayers.html

more about the California situation...

http://www.calwatchdog.com/2010/08/26/8228/
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Re: 60 minutes 12/19

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:18 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:
FUDU wrote:NJ Governor was on and they showed him in a town meeting with the teachers union, really loved his approach. Teachers says "you're not reimbursing me for my education and you've not kept up with pay raises"...governor replies "have you thought about not doing this anymore". Sounds cold and arrogant, but damn if it isn't reality, I mean it is for the private sector.


I wasn't quite sure how to take that comment. ....

Not the right way to go by the gentleman from NJ.
Erie IMO he was not being a smart ass or trying to be unsympathetic with his comments. To me it was more like a dose of hard reality and he was saying it more in a tone to suggest that these are tough times and we are not doing this just to punish YOU.
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Re: 60 minutes 12/19

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:08 pm

Lots of teachers have multiple degrees and will be gobbling up any open jobs


I call bullshit and consider this just another example of teachers in general being full of themselves when it comes to surviving in the real world outside the umbrella of a union interested more in politics and survival than education

In any event, you won't get those jobs...the Dr's will when they quit their practices if and when this rediculous health care bill takes effect

How do I know? Because they and their wives are my customers and they tell me so...

That woman on 60 Minutes reminded me of a Union President in this area a number of yrs ago who was on TV whining about her pay and bitching about how much her mechanic charged...her exact words were...."...and I have twice the education he does"

To which I jumped out of my chair, pointed to the screen and said, "If you're so fucking smart, fix your own damn car, Bitch"
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Re: 60 minutes 12/19

Unread postby exiledbuckeye » Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:35 pm

Read yesterday that 75% of eligible (age-wise) people in this country don't meet military enlistment standards because they are too fat, felons, or high school dropouts. Of the remaining 25%, 1 in 4 cannot academically pass the military entrance exams.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101222/ap_on_re_us/us_military_exam

Still think that we should disincentivize public education as a career choice? It's already bad enough. Our country is fucked.
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Re: 60 minutes 12/19

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:10 pm

Fire Marshall Bill wrote: In any event, you won't get those jobs...the Dr's will when they quit their practices if and when this rediculous health care bill takes effect


Which is exactly the point. More education gives you a better chance to land a job. As an employer, would you rather hire a person with a master's degree, or a guy with a high school diploma?

Having a specific set of skills (plumber or carpenter) puts you in demand in a specific job, but for your average office 9 to 5, more degrees means a better chance to get hired.
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Re: 60 minutes 12/19

Unread postby jb » Mon Jan 03, 2011 2:40 pm

Kasich will grant ur wishes FUDU, and remember that Gov't employment is a lagging effect of business cycle.
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Re: 60 minutes 12/19

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:13 pm

Where the hell did Ziner go? Hope you didn't go Sonny Bono on the slopes.

Or mayber he's on the marijuana cigarettes.
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Re: 60 minutes 12/19

Unread postby Ziner » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:10 pm

No Sonny Bono, shit I havent hardly even skied this year...one of the best snow years they have had. Just busy, lurking more than posting. Haven't had the motivation. Thanks for caring though, I love you too. :cheers:
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Re: 60 minutes 12/19

Unread postby RickNashEquilibrium » Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:15 pm

Ziner wrote:No Sonny Bono, shit I havent hardly even skied this year...one of the best snow years they have had. Just busy, lurking more than posting. Haven't had the motivation. Thanks for caring though, I love you too. :cheers:


Good to see you back in some capacity. Did that Xmas Ale get there in one piece? Damnit to hell if it didn't.
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Re: 60 minutes 12/19

Unread postby Ziner » Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:47 pm

RickNashEquilibrium wrote:
Ziner wrote:No Sonny Bono, shit I havent hardly even skied this year...one of the best snow years they have had. Just busy, lurking more than posting. Haven't had the motivation. Thanks for caring though, I love you too. :cheers:


Good to see you back in some capacity. Did that Xmas Ale get there in one piece? Damnit to hell if it didn't.


Safe and sound... Sorry I thought I shot you a message about that. The last month was hectic as hell. Brought back about 10 more from Ohio when I was back over Xmas, just waiting for a few weeks for a condo in the mountains to plow through them after skiing.

brought myself back some Commodore Perry, Burning River and Dortmunder too. Probably 50 beers in my fridge right now... Wife's biggest conundrum... she wants them out of the fridge to open up space, but knows the only way they go anywhere is by me going on a weekend binge.
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Re: 60 minutes 12/19

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:09 pm

Ohh good you're back.

Now lets talk about the politicians we hate based on looks.

Nancy Pelosi- I still say she's a Cenobite from Hellraiser

That damn orange John Boehner.

Mitch McConnel- God owes that man a chin.

Joe Liberman- Jon Stewart's "Droopy Dog" impression is perfect.

Dennis Kucinich- NERD!
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Re: 60 minutes 12/19

Unread postby RickNashEquilibrium » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:03 am

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:O

Dennis Kucinich- NERD!


Bullshit. Give him a full comb-over with some grease and put a little black marker under his nose. Who does he look like then?
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