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Carolyn's Cavs Article

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Carolyn's Cavs Article

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:46 am

http://theclevelandfan.com/cleveland-ca ... am-in-team

You have to hit a low point in order to look up. Last Thursday, in an overwhelming atmosphere of emotions Freud would have difficulty untangling, we turned on the remaining team members. How unfair is that? They are struggling, like the rest of us, to put feelings aside and restructure the playing field.

Ironically, when our small forward left, we lost our center. Literally and metaphorically. Z, our gentle Lithuanian giant, followed LB Jimmy south for the winter. And we became spokes without a hub.


Thoughts?

I like the angle but I still feel like the roster showed no compassion for what the fans were feeling. I know there's a disconnect between fans and players that millions of dollars can't quite bridge, but last Thursday was frustrating for that reason plus more.
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Re: Carolyn's Cavs Article

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:04 am

If Z were here it would just be another mediocre player (or worse) to add to the bunch.

Love Big Z, but it's been some years since he's been anything but a one dimensional player - a 7 foot spot up shooter.

And intangibles and leadership play a role - but at the core there needs to be talent. Hell, Varajeo is as intangibly strong as anyone in the league, but he doesn't look as good without the 5 lay-ups a game LBJ served him on a platter, and the team as a whole....

What happened Thursday, and how they responded...probably a combination of things - the modern player having less vitriol toward opponents, a number of them still worshipping the King, intimidation and, most importantly in regard to this team and this topic - there's probably several of them that know , deep down, how much easier LBJ made the game for them.

And that's still the bottom line, we don't want to give the guy credit, but he provided sooo many open looks, lay-ups and dunks for medocre talent, that it had many believing these players were good enough to stand on their own. And we can argue to what degree of "selfish" Lebron is, and if he's unselfish enough to lead guys to a championship. But that's another argument. What's undeniable is that he made THIS group infinitely better.

Now Varejeo loks like a player with awful offensive skills (which he had last year) Hickson looks dumb and lost (which he was last year) Mo looks like he is forcing himself to be a natural point guard (which he did last year, accept he didn't have that responsibilty much) and so on.

The reason the Cavs stink is that it was a medicre group lead by a hall of famer last year, and this year it's a mediocre group. Really, it's that simple.

By the way, even Lebron at his worst, pounding it out top......is a much better option for the Cleveland Cavaliers than anything they can run this year with less than 12 seconds on the shot clock.

They have NOBODY that can create a shot. They went years having the shots created for them.
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Re: Carolyn's Cavs Article

Unread postby michaelellen » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:36 am

I think all the Cavs got used to playing supporting roles under the main event (LeBron). And even if there is talent, it might not thrive when it is only employed to service the pre-eminent player on the team. Imagine growing up playing ball, dreaming of an NBA career, perfecting your shots, learning your strengths, earning the praise ... then getting the chance to play with the best-of-the-best. But instead of being challenged to continue growing your own game, you were asked to figure out how you could fit into the plays the King was making. Could you pass him the ball better? Could you catch a rebound for him better? Could you keep the lane clear for him better?

I know the Cavs can be better. But now they have to do it for themselves.
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Re: Carolyn's Cavs Article

Unread postby Prosecutor » Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:10 pm

michaelellen wrote:I think all the Cavs got used to playing supporting roles under the main event (LeBron). And even if there is talent, it might not thrive when it is only employed to service the pre-eminent player on the team. Imagine growing up playing ball, dreaming of an NBA career, perfecting your shots, learning your strengths, earning the praise ... then getting the chance to play with the best-of-the-best. But instead of being challenged to continue growing your own game, you were asked to figure out how you could fit into the plays the King was making. Could you pass him the ball better? Could you catch a rebound for him better? Could you keep the lane clear for him better?

I know the Cavs can be better. But now they have to do it for themselves.


I don't agree with this take at all. Many of the Cavs played for years in the Association before teaming up with LeBron. Jamison, Mo, Parker, Moon, Sessions, Powe...all these guys were fully developed players before coming to Cleveland. Only Andy, Boobie, and JJ have played with LeBron their whole careers, but come on, it's not like Andy never got a chance to "grow his own game". His game is defense, rebounding, and hustle, and that's all he'll ever have. He's not going to develop a jump shot or an effective back-to-the-basket game now that LeBron is no longer stunting his development.

Maybe JJ gets more opportunities to create his shot on iso's, but that's it IMO.
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Re: Carolyn's Cavs Article

Unread postby Prosecutor » Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:15 pm

Last Thursday, in an overwhelming atmosphere of emotions Freud would have difficulty untangling, we turned on the remaining team members. How unfair is that? They are struggling, like the rest of us, to put feelings aside and restructure the playing field.


I feel like she is making excuses. We're a quarter of the way through the regular season. LeBron announced his decision in July and it's now December. These guys are professionals. Get over it. I don't buy the argument that the Cavs players are still "struggling...to put feelings aside" and this is negatively affecting their play to the point where it's "unfair" of us to criticize their astonishing and inexcusable lack of effort and intensity.
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Re: Carolyn's Cavs Article

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:32 pm

michaelellen wrote:I think all the Cavs got used to playing supporting roles under the main event (LeBron). And even if there is talent, it might not thrive when it is only employed to service the pre-eminent player on the team. Imagine growing up playing ball, dreaming of an NBA career, perfecting your shots, learning your strengths, earning the praise ... then getting the chance to play with the best-of-the-best. But instead of being challenged to continue growing your own game, you were asked to figure out how you could fit into the plays the King was making. Could you pass him the ball better? Could you catch a rebound for him better? Could you keep the lane clear for him better?

I know the Cavs can be better. But now they have to do it for themselves.


Welcome to the boards and contribute often. :salute:
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Re: Carolyn's Cavs Article

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:45 pm

Prosecutor wrote:I don't agree with this take at all. Many of the Cavs played for years in the Association before teaming up with LeBron. Jamison, Mo, Parker, Moon, Sessions, Powe...all these guys were fully developed players before coming to Cleveland. Only Andy, Boobie, and JJ have played with LeBron their whole careers, but come on, it's not like Andy never got a chance to "grow his own game". His game is defense, rebounding, and hustle, and that's all he'll ever have. He's not going to develop a jump shot or an effective back-to-the-basket game now that LeBron is no longer stunting his development.

Maybe JJ gets more opportunities to create his shot on iso's, but that's it IMO.


What's not to agree with, it's truth

Yes some of these guys have played in the NBA w/o James. All but Jamison we're role players for their teams before coming to Cleveland. They (except Sessions) were brought in to compliment LeBron, not to be option 1a. Look how Jamison was asked to spread the floor and hang out at the 3 pt line. The same with Mo. Williams would drive the lane numerous times in his career until he came here. He was then asked to to hang out at the line and be the recipient of a pass from James when he got doubled. Coming in to Cleveland stopped any growth to their games as they were asked to play a role w/ James while James dictated what happened on the court. Someone like Mo has played in that system for two years, where movement w/o the ball was not a requirement. This year the team goes to the Princeton offense where if one player on the court doesn't move and flow w/ the offense, the to turns to crap. It's gonna take some time until everyone on the roster buys into what Scott is selling, and as we've seen, not everyone is grasping the concept or buying in. (JJ I'm looking at you)
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Re: Carolyn's Cavs Article

Unread postby pup » Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:50 pm

God damn LeBron. Stayed just long enough to stall the development of the otherwise future hall of famers then left.
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Re: Carolyn's Cavs Article

Unread postby leadpipe » Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:10 pm

You can implement any offense ever developed in today's Cavs, and you aren't gonna get good results.

The problem ain't the Princeton offense, it's that the players are not talented enough to run any offense effectively.

Two things need to be clear here;

1. You need a certain talent base. The Cavs are not close to that base.

and

2. To insinuate Lebron hurt these guys rather than helped them.....the proof is in what you're watching right now. Couldn't be more clear. (And yes, it's too bad a guy like Jamison had to change his game. Adjusting to WIDE open looks, and adjusting to an empty weak side to operate and get a zillion offensive rebound chances must a been tough.)

I'll throw in an additional question for Cavalier debate:

What's worse, Joey Graham starting for you NBA team, or the fact he actually deserves to start for your NBA team?

Look, I'm not here to go over what Lebron brought or didn't bring to the table. As mentioned before championship player or not a championship player, for whatever reasons doesn't really matter here. To the point of the article - not sure you need to look for a magic reason as to what's going on. Fans are not going to fall in love, support or pay much attention to a pretty bad team. Lebron made them an excellent team, so fans loved them. Lebron left, and now they'll get the support that any bad team gets.

Again, it was a morgue down there pre-Lebron, and it'll be a morgue next year minus this years season ticket renewals. And if you don't want to give Lebron the credit, let's just say the factor is a good team.

Cats dig good teams.
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Re: Carolyn's Cavs Article

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:44 pm

Cavs have lost five straight by 19, 28, 24, 10, and 20.

Byron Scott's answer to the problems is that the Cavs need more "pride."

I guess he can't come out and say, "These guys suck." But it's the case.
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Re: Carolyn's Cavs Article

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:20 pm

pup wrote:God damn LeBron. Stayed just long enough to stall the development of the otherwise future hall of famers then left.


I can't remember if it was peeks or Lead, but amen on the "pick the extreme" of each side of the debate take.

Don't think LB claimed anywhere there that those guys were HoF'ers... Those guys' game here was affected by LeBron in good ways and bad. Obviously with him its a much stronger unit, and seems that the negatives + things Lead points out above eclipse any positives these guys may have now that they aren't spot up shooters.
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Re: Carolyn's Cavs Article

Unread postby Ziner » Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:23 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Cavs have lost five straight by 19, 28, 24, 10, and 20.

Byron Scott's answer to the problems is that the Cavs need more "pride."

I guess he can't come out and say, "These guys suck." But it's the case.


I dont think they necessarily "suck" as in the normal meaning of suck. Jamison, Varejao, and Mo at a minimum could make a strong contribution to pretty much any team. Seems like to me the issue is motivation. This team has typically been able to coast through the regular season as a big pre-season to play for their actual season. There is no actual season this year. It is 82 games of pointlessness. They arent winning a championship, they arent getting better, even if they make the playoffs they just get manhandled and bounced. So really put yourself in your shoes, why the hell do you care. The only motivation you can carry every night is hoping to play well enough to attract attention from another team for a trade and pride. Pride can only get you so far game after game (especially when I have my doubts about the magnitude of their pride).

That right there is the biggest reason to blow it up. Vets arent going to play hard when there is less than zero chance for a championship, think about it could you play THAT hard night after night when in reality it doesnt matter? I know they are making a ton of money to do just that, but lets stay in the real world.

The only way you get a team that is going to play hard is to blow it up and put together a collection of youngins who want to play together and who want to prove to everyone they belong and they can get better. Mo, Jamison, Andy, Parker, Moon, etc arent getting better, they are what they are, and they have the lack of motivation to go with it. Bad situation.
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Re: Carolyn's Cavs Article

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:26 pm

^typed before reading LP's last post.

Noticed that Philly crowd was kinda blah and they were blowing us the f out. Just nothing exciting about 76er/Cavalier basketball right now.

Amen on the talent point. In the preseason I argued that guys might be able to show their complete game now that they no longer had LeBron. As Lead points out, we have a 20ish game sample size, and even if they gel, maxout is late lotto team.

For the love of gawd the Gibson, Sessions, Williams/Graham(really just a warm body at this point), Jamo, Powe lineup looked best tonight. At least they hustle, play tough D, and occasionally their strengths overcome the opponent.

Fuck Hickson.
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Re: Carolyn's Cavs Article

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:31 pm

Z that right there is probably a great reason to put Jamo back in the starting lineup. Showcase the guy... That and even if he isn't traded he helps me stop watching Hickson.

IMO what isn't on the table trade wise? Seems to me the only thing worth keeping are draft picks.

Give me nothing but physical crazy MF'ers like Stephen Jackson and Ron Artest. If ya can get them a little less crazy and at every position, maybe you then have a team with some f'ing hustle/toughness/and pride.
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Re: Carolyn's Cavs Article

Unread postby Ziner » Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:40 pm

^ Everything is on the table IMO, really I'd take my chances with a non-lottery pick for JJ at this point, who the hell cares. There is not a single player on our bench who isnt expendable for a draft pick or two. That is Grant's only job right now, gut it, don't sign any long term contracts to keep flexibility and stockpile picks. Nothing worth saving. What is the worst that happens we get Oden instead of Durant and suck anyway?

Jamison, Mo, Varejao, and Parker all need to be showcased for a trade.
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