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Dolan/Antonetti speak: "Not the right time to spend"

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Re: Dolan/Antonetti speak: "Not the right time to spend"

Unread postby bac5665 » Tue Nov 23, 2010 3:08 pm

Eck, I'm with you. It's not good enough for me that my team win a championship one year then fade into oblivion for thirty years. I'd take it, but I have no interest in it.

What I want are players to cheer for. I want hometown heroes I can trust to be there for a decade, that I can buy a jersey for without feeling like I'm waisting money. I couldn't be a TB fan, at not a happy one; I couldn't stand seeing those players that got me so close practically forced to leave town for greener pastures. Hell, CC still makes me want to cry. He was the heart and soul of the team for me, and seeing him in any other jersey is a knife in my heart.

Well, I'm not going to support something like that. I don't want desensitized to it; that would mean that I can't be getting any joy from our players in the first place, and that's just not what sports are to me.

Until I can have CC and Victor back, I can't bring myself to care. I'll watch the games, and pay attention, but only when I have nothing better to do. And I won't care the way I do for the Browns or the Buckeyes. (Don't get me started on the NBA...)
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Re: Dolan/Antonetti speak: "Not the right time to spend"

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:25 pm

skatingtripods wrote:[
You want to be pessimistic, fine. I've seen these kids in person in both Akron and Columbus. They've got some kids who can play. I see what scouts have to say. I see what BA has to say. The track record of those kids, to this point, speaks for itself. Whether it translates to the big leagues or not remains to be seen. But the future looks brighter than it did two years ago.


Sorry dude, fresh out of give-a-damn. The longer fans accept excuses and failures, with the hopes of one day being good, it's gonna be a long road. Like religion.

Not pessimistic, real. With the players they have right now, in order for this team to make the playoffs 4 or 5 of those prospects have to hit. At the same time. And when Choo/Grady/Fausto (and Choo is the only one I would consider good) get moved, add another number to the above. Does that sound like a good plan to you?

As far as the farm system is concerned, they are good enough to not be ML players. I'm glad they have kids who people think have talent, but none of that wins anything now. Sick of next year.
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Re: Dolan/Antonetti speak: "Not the right time to spend"

Unread postby skatingtripods » Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:11 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:As far as the farm system is concerned, they are good enough to not be ML players. I'm glad they have kids who people think have talent, but none of that wins anything now. Sick of next year.


According to who? To you? Sorry, dude, but I'd take the opinion of BA writers and scouts long before I'd take yours. Or mine. Or McPeek's. Or CDT's. Or anybody.

So when you are able to give me a name, your take may have merit. Until then, it's baseless. Except for based on your own frustration.
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Re: Dolan/Antonetti speak: "Not the right time to spend"

Unread postby 1Perry » Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:45 pm

We've been told for years that the Indians farm teams were loaded. After awhile you do quit listening to the hype.
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Re: Dolan/Antonetti speak: "Not the right time to spend"

Unread postby gotribe31 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:11 am

1Perry wrote:We've been told for years that the Indians farm teams were loaded. After awhile you do quit listening to the hype.


Realistically, the Indians have one of the deepest farm systems in baseball. What they lack right now is a true blue-chip, can't miss talent on the level of a Carlos Santana that they had last year.

For a team that will always need to rely on internal options for depth, this is a good thing (the depth, not the lack of elite talent). Instead of signing a veteran retread for bullpen depth, go to the farm system. Instead of shelling out for a crappy utility INF, go to the farm system. Just because you don't know much about these guys doesn't mean they won't contribute at the major league level.

No one is saying that the Clippers will move up to Cleveland and win a title next year. If you want to bitch about the farm system, it helps to know something about they players in it.
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Re: Dolan/Antonetti speak: "Not the right time to spend"

Unread postby pup » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:40 am

gotribe31 wrote:Why do people continually expect Dolan (or any other owner) to voluntarily lose money with his asset? The point of owning a baseball team for these millionares is not to bankrupt themselves while trying to bring a championship to a desperate fanbase. The point is to make money. The best way for Dolan to make money is to build this team from within to the point of contention, and then selectively add payroll to augment the roster built through the draft and trades to try and win a championship. Which he has shown that he will do with the Kerry Wood aquisition, DeRosa trade etc.

2008 wasn't a failure of the front office. It was a failure on the part of the players to not live up to their potential on the field. A team with the reigning Cy Young winner and the soon to be Cy Young winner scuffled out of the gate and was out of contention by late May. Shockingly, it wasn't Eric Wedge's fault either. Even after 2008, they went out and added payroll. '

Anyone who thinks we have no talent in the organization simply doesn't know anything about the organization. Anyone who thinks we should spend our way to contention by signing free agents doesn't know anything about the quality of free agents available or the free market and how economics works.

As Pauly C. said, Dolan needs a better press secretary to frame his comments in a little more positive light. But that doesn't mean what he's saying isn't true. The Yankees/Red Sox/Twins MAKE MORE MONEY than we do so they can afford to SPEND MORE MONEY. Its alarmingly simple.


If you still belief Dolan has lost a single penny in any given year, then I understand you not being upset. Only money he has lost is in the overall value of a franchise because he let his Boy Wonder destroy it. And has now promoted him.
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Re: Dolan/Antonetti speak: "Not the right time to spend"

Unread postby ArtGold » Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:22 pm

I too have some doubt about Dolan losing money. If baseball wanted player and public sympathy and their losses were real, why not publicize their audited and certified annual profit and loss statements?

Regarding the farm system, I too agree it is deep with some potential quality, but as others have stated we have seen this path many times in the past, with inconsistent results. The expenditure this past draft was promising, but we need to do this for a few consecutive years before we likely will see major league benefits.

I clearly remember the late 1980's. I recall having discussions with Indians fans after the 1987 season about how much potential the club had in the system with potential starting pitchers John Farrell, Mike Walker, Charlie Scott, "Rocket" Rod Nichols, Jeff Shaw, Mike Poehl, Tom Kramer and Kevin Wickander, along with some great potential relief arms like Kevin Bearse, Willie Garza and Carl Keliipuleole. Along with these potential future star pitchers we had some exciting young position players such as Dave Clark, Bernardo Brito, Eddie Williams, Luis Medina and Beau Allred. If you look at that system and how those players were regarded at that time, it isn't really all that different than our system today.

Hopefully some of the guys really become very good, and fan interest picks up. However, I don't see that as a reason for making absolutely no moves today. The performance by Jayson Nix at 3rd and Matt LaPorta at 1st were clearly things that need to be significantly upgraded this year, and I see no harm in some minor expenditures (up to about $5 or $6 million) to bring in some veteran competition this offseason. In addition, I'd like to see us free up a slot on the 40 man roster and draft another 3rd base possibility from another club, such as Brad Emaus off of the Toronto organization.

Otherwise, I'd like to see Dolan put the club up for sale.
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Re: Dolan/Antonetti speak: "Not the right time to spend"

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:05 pm

gotribe31 wrote: Instead of signing a veteran retread for bullpen depth, go to the farm system. Instead of shelling out for a crappy utility INF, go to the farm system. Just because you don't know much about these guys doesn't mean they won't contribute at the major league level.


The farm system is great. Full of quality minor leaguers. Guys that hit .230 (maybe) and make it look like Wringling Bros. in the field when they get to the show. Of course they have guys who do well, and guys who look like they are almost there, but this statement is still true:
With the players they have right now, in order for this team to make the playoffs 4 or 5 of those prospects have to hit. At the same time.


Isn't is more insane to hope for this to happen than to try and find some ML talent to help this team? With all the excrement this team put on the field last season, and limited choices behind the excrement, you can't tell me there aren't any free agents that could help this team. Whenever they come out and say "now is not the right time to spend", they are publicly feeding us a shit sandwich. They have lost before they even take the field.

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Re: Dolan/Antonetti speak: "Not the right time to spend"

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:53 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:Full of quality minor leaguers. Guys that hit .230 (maybe) and make it look like Wringling Bros. in the field when they get to the show.


Again...according to who?
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Re: Dolan/Antonetti speak: "Not the right time to spend"

Unread postby gotribe31 » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:32 pm

Erie Warrior wrote:
gotribe31 wrote: Instead of signing a veteran retread for bullpen depth, go to the farm system. Instead of shelling out for a crappy utility INF, go to the farm system. Just because you don't know much about these guys doesn't mean they won't contribute at the major league level.


The farm system is great. Full of quality minor leaguers. Guys that hit .230 (maybe) and make it look like Wringling Bros. in the field when they get to the show. Of course they have guys who do well, and guys who look like they are almost there, but this statement is still true:
With the players they have right now, in order for this team to make the playoffs 4 or 5 of those prospects have to hit. At the same time.


Isn't is more insane to hope for this to happen than to try and find some ML talent to help this team? With all the excrement this team put on the field last season, and limited choices behind the excrement, you can't tell me there aren't any free agents that could help this team. Whenever they come out and say "now is not the right time to spend", they are publicly feeding us a shit sandwich. They have lost before they even take the field.

Hope in one hand and crap in the other.


So now you can tell the future? I'm done with this. Its clear you've made up your mind already about an entire system of players, maybe 4 of whose names you even know. How many of our prospects have you even seen play?
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Re: Dolan/Antonetti speak: "Not the right time to spend"

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:33 pm

skatingtripods wrote: Again...according to who?


Marson .195
LaPorta .221
Valbuena .193
Brantley .246 (and I like him)
Donald .253
Brown .230
Santana .260 (I really like him)

All guys who were good minor leaguers, and most of them were key parts of trades for viable ML talent. Weren't all these guys high upside, quality trades to build for the future? Just like what's in place right now? The future is now, and it isn't pretty. So are we saying by 2013 this should be a good ball club? And in 2013 when Choo, Grady and Fausto are traded what then? I've got nothing against building for the future with young players. But that shouldn't be the only thing done. It can't be, or you end up with a 90+ loss ML team.

I have seen the Clippers play when they came to Norfolk, but that is the extent of my personal experience. But I follow Tony's site, and I know for sure most of them didn't play for the Indians this season. I'd be more optimistic if this scenario hasn't played out before. Why the hell should I be excited for possibly being a .500 ball club in 2013?
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Re: Dolan/Antonetti speak: "Not the right time to spend"

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:51 pm

So basically, what you're saying is that these guys are supposed to come up here and all be Buster Posey? That's not the way baseball works. Not everybody will be Albert Pujols and string together .300 seasons every year from the start of their career until the end.

And gotribe and I are not talking about the guys who are already here. The guys who were part of the minor leagues when the Indians were ranked in the bottom third organizationally. We're talking about guys like Phelps, Kipnis, Chisenhall, White, Stowell, Santana, Carrasco, Knapp and this past draft which was lauded by nearly everybody involved in rating prospects.
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Re: Dolan/Antonetti speak: "Not the right time to spend"

Unread postby pup » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:07 pm

skatingtripods wrote:So basically, what you're saying is that these guys are supposed to come up here and all be Buster Posey? That's not the way baseball works. Not everybody will be Albert Pujols and string together .300 seasons every year from the start of their career until the end.

And gotribe and I are not talking about the guys who are already here. The guys who were part of the minor leagues when the Indians were ranked in the bottom third organizationally. We're talking about guys like Phelps, Kipnis, Chisenhall, White, Stowell, Santana, Carrasco, Knapp and this past draft which was lauded by nearly everybody involved in rating prospects.


And that bottom third of the ranking organizationally was immediately after being a top 10 minor league organization for how long. With marginal results at the big league level.

What is the going rate on top level minor league talent becoming legit major league talent? 10%? 15%? 30%? When you factor in the odds of it all blossoming at the same time...how much does that lower the percentage?

How long ago was the Pirates considered well stocked with ML arms? How long can one hear about the offensive talent in KC upper levels?

Good minor league rankings are great for hope and selling a plan. For the most part they are shitty for winning at the major league level.
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Re: Dolan/Antonetti speak: "Not the right time to spend"

Unread postby skatingtripods » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:13 pm

pup wrote:And that bottom third of the ranking organizationally was immediately after being a top 10 minor league organization for how long. With marginal results at the big league level.

What is the going rate on top level minor league talent becoming legit major league talent? 10%? 15%? 30%? When you factor in the odds of it all blossoming at the same time...how much does that lower the percentage?

How long ago was the Pirates considered well stocked with ML arms? How long can one hear about the offensive talent in KC upper levels?

Good minor league rankings are great for hope and selling a plan. For the most part they are shitty for winning at the major league level.


I get all that, Cris. I do. I've been one of the biggest skeptics on the draft because it's a huge crapshoot. I say that in every draft thread. And I've said it in this thread about the draft being a 10M gamble.

But, again, this thread is about it not being the right time to spend. And this past draft and the prospect pool is the reason why. The organization needs to find out if these kids have it. The only way to do that is by letting them play and not blocking their path with some pricey FA signing.

All of this goes back to the original post. It's not the right time to spend in the FA market.
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Re: Dolan/Antonetti speak: "Not the right time to spend"

Unread postby 1Perry » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:18 pm

gotribe31 wrote:
1Perry wrote:We've been told for years that the Indians farm teams were loaded. After awhile you do quit listening to the hype.


Realistically, the Indians have one of the deepest farm systems in baseball. What they lack right now is a true blue-chip, can't miss talent on the level of a Carlos Santana that they had last year.


Which is as far as anyone knows is still the same today. That's my point. I'm no longer impressed with claims of a strong farm system coming from one that produces very little.

For a team that will always need to rely on internal options for depth, this is a good thing (the depth, not the lack of elite talent). Instead of signing a veteran retread for bullpen depth, go to the farm system.


We've been there on both fronts only to see them not work out.

Instead of shelling out for a crappy utility INF, go to the farm system. Just because you don't know much about these guys doesn't mean they won't contribute at the major league level.


Well, I don't doubt that we could find a UI but that's hardly going to be the turn around for this team. Again, no it does not mean nobody will contribute. It also doesn't mean I'm buying that the Indians have a strong farm system as far as finding guys who can actually play at the major league level. At some point, just like the prospect, the front office has to prove themselves.

No one is saying that the Clippers will move up to Cleveland and win a title next year. If you want to bitch about the farm system, it helps to know something about they players in it.


How do you miss this point? We've followed them for years, only to watch them fizzle. Your arguement has been made for a long time.
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Re: Dolan/Antonetti speak: "Not the right time to spend"

Unread postby pup » Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:47 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
pup wrote:And that bottom third of the ranking organizationally was immediately after being a top 10 minor league organization for how long. With marginal results at the big league level.

What is the going rate on top level minor league talent becoming legit major league talent? 10%? 15%? 30%? When you factor in the odds of it all blossoming at the same time...how much does that lower the percentage?

How long ago was the Pirates considered well stocked with ML arms? How long can one hear about the offensive talent in KC upper levels?

Good minor league rankings are great for hope and selling a plan. For the most part they are shitty for winning at the major league level.


I get all that, Cris. I do. I've been one of the biggest skeptics on the draft because it's a huge crapshoot. I say that in every draft thread. And I've said it in this thread about the draft being a 10M gamble.

But, again, this thread is about it not being the right time to spend. And this past draft and the prospect pool is the reason why. The organization needs to find out if these kids have it. The only way to do that is by letting them play and not blocking their path with some pricey FA signing.

All of this goes back to the original post. It's not the right time to spend in the FA market.


And back to my original question..when will it be?

Here is my rub. In general people talk about these guys like they are all going to be stars. They aren't. Of the group you mentioned above, one might be. Two more might be above average. The rest are fodder. So let's have the guys that are getting paid a ton of money to assess these things be right about which ones will be. And augment them with FA's that are available. I am not asking anyone to go get All Stars At Every Position. I don't think that is required. But to sit on your hands and wait for Cord Phelps to prove his worth at the major league level in 3 more years? Once they are here and producing, anyone can judge them. All while sitting through another season of Luis Valbuena? Will Chisenhall make it? Wait until 2012 and enjoy your season of Jayson Nix at third!

You can't make the argument that you cannot bring in good free agents and block the path of these guys, and then block the path of them with has beens and never weres. You want to find out if Lonnie is the third baseman of the future, play him at third base. What else is there for him to do in C-Bus? If you think Cord Phelps is one year away from being ready? There will be a 2B available on a one year deal who is a lot better than what we have.

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Re: Dolan/Antonetti speak: "Not the right time to spend"

Unread postby Eckersley » Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:56 am

1Perry wrote:At some point, just like the prospect, the front office has to prove themselves.


Why? There's been zero accountability in the Tribe FO since the Dolans bought the team. A dismal job performance means you'll get a contract extension or a promotion.

But all is well...Shapiro has assured the fans that the pieces are in place. :pigs:
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Re: Dolan/Antonetti speak: "Not the right time to spend"

Unread postby Eckersley » Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:54 am

The "right time to spend" is falling upon a lot of deaf ears as the Tribe has lost 900K fans since the 07 season.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/slidesho ... eshow.html
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Re: Dolan/Antonetti speak: "Not the right time to spend"

Unread postby jb » Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:30 pm

bac5665 wrote:Eck, I'm with you. It's not good enough for me that my team win a championship one year then fade into oblivion. I'd take it, but I have no interest in it.



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Re: Dolan/Antonetti speak: "Not the right time to spend"

Unread postby jb » Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:32 pm

Eckersley wrote:The "right time to spend" is falling upon a lot of deaf ears as the Tribe has lost 900K fans since the 07 season.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/slidesho ... eshow.html



Only 900K?

Wow. That begs the question of whether it was worth it to win.

You could always put in a second innertube hill I guess.
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