The Blame Game (The ND incident)

[yogi]

This obviously is a real tragedy, some kid probably wanting to get a job filming sports events building a resume.

He does what he is told, and dies because of it.

Here's one early call of fault...

It'll be interesting to see how this all falls out.

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefootball/story/notre-dame-must-fire-brian-kelly-over-student-death-102910

[JCoz]

Wonder what the details of the lift are....OSHA has pretty clear guidelines on these types of things. Either the base was improperly secured or being on that lift with those wind speeds was a violation in and of itself.

As far as Kellys job, I'll leave that to someone else.

Terrible reality though. The Tress comment sure doesn't make Kelly look very thoughtful.

[yogi]

I think that it is not recommended to use the lift in winds higher than 25mph, wind that afternoon exceeded 50mph.

As far as Kelly taking the blame, I'm not sure, but he and the AD run the program and where the "buck stops".

[motherscratcher]

God, this whole tragedy is just awful. It probably has something to do with having a son myself, and when I see pictures of that kids smiling face I feel so horrible for his parents and family that it makes me feel like crying.

"Gusts of wind up to 60mph well today will be fun at work . . . I guess I've lived long enough,

"

That was one of his tweets that day.

Should ND fire Kelly? Hell, I don't know. Who the hell could know the right thing to do after something like this?

[JCoz]

God, this whole tragedy is just awful. It probably has something to do with having a son myself, and when I see pictures of that kids smiling face I feel so horrible for his parents and family that it makes me feel like crying.

"Gusts of wind up to 60mph well today will be fun at work . . . I guess I've lived long enough,

"

That was one of his tweets that day.

Should ND fire Kelly? Hell, I don't know. Who the hell could know the right thing to do after something like this?

Those tweets are probably the most brutal extra detail in this story. Just eerie.

[daddywags]

Just a horrible thing. Hard to think about even. As for Kelly, well I wouldn't want to feel the way I'd guess he's feeling right now about this. Whether he gets fired or not, he's got to live it somehow.

[JCoz]

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2010/10/indiana_osha_probes_death_of_n.html

OSHA is investigating.

[Fire Marshall Bill]

The head football coach has final say over everything that transpires on the practice field. Everything. That’s why Ohio State’s Jim Tressel moved the Buckeyes’ practice inside on Tuesday when wind gusts made conditions unsafe.

“I don’t know if we’ll be inside or out,” Tressel told Ohio reporters 24 hours before the Notre Dame tragedy. “It looks a little nasty. I worry about our cameramen, their well-being up there 50 feet in the air.”

That’s the proper mindset of a head football coach. He’s paranoid about everything.

This right here puts an onus on the coach and I can't say Witlock is wrong...

That said, I don't remember any threads here about an elevator accident @ tOSU in which a young girl from my sons HS here in Erie was killed a couple years ago...

[Fire Marshall Bill]

God, this whole tragedy is just awful. It probably has something to do with having a son myself, and when I see pictures of that kids smiling face I feel so horrible for his parents and family that it makes me feel like crying.

[quote]"Gusts of wind up to 60mph well today will be fun at work . . . I guess I've lived long enough,

"

That quote indicates a pattern of abuse and quite honestly, being in the construction industry for 35 yrs, I'll say no in-experienced young kid has any business that high up without having been professionally trained in the operation of the lift

Throw in the fact it appears the wind speed exceeded the recommendations and limits of the lift, not only should the coach get fired but the AD and anyone else in the chain...

[FUDU]

I'm no fan of Kelly or ND, but I am having trouble seeing the ultimate benefit of firing him on this right now.

Couple ?'s:

1. Does firing Kelly bring the kid back? No unfortunately, but obviously it's reality.

2. Does firing Kelly prevent this from happening again? It only prevents this from happening again while Kelly is in charge.

3. Is firing Kelly the way to prevent this from happening in the future? No, b/c ultimately you can rewrite your rules and procedures on this stuff.

4. Is there a history of recklessness in Kelly's coaching history, in regards to on & off the field safety? If yes then firing becomes a viable & sensible solution, if no then....

I'm not saying I know what to do but it just seems like a tough situation and one that no matter how resolved there is a fact that still remains, the dead kid.

Is it just about punishment for a decision Kelly made and in some way Kelly should pay a price?

[aoxo1]

Kelly should be arrested. Or whomever is responsible.

[yogi]

3. Is firing Kelly the way to prevent this from happening in the future? No, b/c ultimately you can rewrite your rules and procedures on this stuff.

Huh? Rewrite the rules that say you should pay attention to warnings signs?

I dont know if these scissor lifts will ever be used again for filming as it has been, yet alone in winds that are gusting.

Kelly is ultimately along with the AD responsible for that kid being in that lift in those conditions. Of course the kid aint coming back, doesnt and shouldnt have anything to do with what has to be done. People lose their jobs over bad decisions and mistakes, I doubt Kelly and the AD ever made a bigger mistake and a dumber decision in their lives.

I'm not calling for anyone's job, but in thinking it through, I don't know how he doesnt.

[idoctribefan]

Kelly should be arrested. Or whomever is responsible.

+1

[Cerebral_DownTime]

Kelly should be arrested. Or whomever is responsible.

So you're saying we should arrest God?

[jfiling]

As soon as someone comes up with the person other than Kelly that hired this guy to do this job and comes up with someone other than Kelly who was this guy's "manager" (for lack of a better term) then we'll know who other than Kelly is responsible for this death.

I wouldn't look at the Notre Dame scout.com message boards for answers.

[JCoz]

What do you mean Jfiling?

[jfiling]

What do you mean Jfiling?

It's the Blame Game. I just was suggesting where to look, if it's not Coach Kelly who is at fault (and like I said, don't look at the Notre Dame fan sites, because all they can do is give half-hearted sympathy, and the only problem they have with Kelly is his poor defensive coaching skills).

[aoxo1]

Kelly should be arrested. Or whomever is responsible.

So you're saying we should arrest God?

We could never pin it on him, not with ND stonewalling us.

[leadpipe]

Extra pressure on Kelly now. If he doesn't turn the program around he'll be the guy that killed the poor kid on the tower.

If ND starts to win big again this incident will be Costa Nostroed.

[jb]

Kelly should be arrested. Or whomever is responsible.

+1

He got a mass said and he is in heaven. They may have even refunded some tuition, although I doubt board becasue he ate food this semester. What else do you want? Kid should have held on or something. I know this board is a bunch of buckeye honks who would be saying how bad they feel for Tressel had he done this instead, but this is just out of control.

[jb]

What do you mean Jfiling?

It's the Blame Game. I just was suggesting where to look, if it's not Coach Kelly who is at fault .

No one.

There doesn't have to be blame for every tragic incident.

Or maybe there should be a law, eh Mr. Liberatarian? ;-)

[yogi]

What do you mean Jfiling?

It's the Blame Game. I just was suggesting where to look, if it's not Coach Kelly who is at fault .

No one.

There doesn't have to be blame for every tragic incident.

Or maybe there should be a law, eh Mr. Liberatarian? ;-)

You are right, not every accident has someone who caused it or allowed the accident to happen.

This case may or may not be different. But they have law professionals investigating the incident and will give us the scoop of exactly what went down.

The little piece of evidence of the kid tweeting that he thought he might die before he went up, even if partially in jest, will certainly be interesting to the investigators.

"Gusts of wind up to 60mph well today will be fun at work . . . I guess I've lived long enough,

[jb]

What do you mean Jfiling?

It's the Blame Game. I just was suggesting where to look, if it's not Coach Kelly who is at fault .

No one.

There doesn't have to be blame for every tragic incident.

Or maybe there should be a law, eh Mr. Liberatarian? ;-)

You are right, not every accident has someone who caused it or allowed the accident to happen.

This case may or may not be different. But they have law professionals investigating the incident and will give us the scoop of exactly what went down.

The little piece of evidence of the kid tweeting that he thought he might die before he went up, even if partially in jest, will certainly be interesting to the investigators.

"Gusts of wind up to 60mph well today will be fun at work . . . I guess I've lived long enough,

Kids. They are so fatalistic.

I've texted I wanted to kill Jake Delhomme I think. I didn't mean it.

[peeker643]

I would think Tweeting takes two hands.

Two hands that would have served him better holding the fuck on.



Sorry- It was there and easy and not necessarily the opinion of the author or webmaster.

As always (and as apparently something that needs to replace "Give me Jamey Carroll or Give me Death") I am a dick.

Fire off an angry PM or petition Swerb to remoe my posting privileges.

[Bayou Tribe]

What would he have held on to? He didn't fall out of the scissor lift, the entire lift toppled over. Working in refineries, it's commonplace to know that you don't even raise a scissor lift un-manned if the winds are up to 25 mph. 50 mph gusts, that kid was dead before he woke up that morning.

[jb]

I would think Tweeting takes two hands.

Two hands that would have served him better holding the fuck on.

See, I knew there was one more a-hole who'd join in. Now who else is a roton sob?

[jb]

What would he have held on to? He didn't fall out of the scissor lift, the entire lift toppled over. Working in refineries, it's commonplace to know that you don't even raise a scissor lift un-manned if the winds are up to 25 mph. 50 mph gusts, that kid was dead before he woke up that morning.

OK, now being serious.
Anyone ever ben to SB?

I'm there --- alot. I drove by the practice FB fields (they now have Bellichikian CIA security around the fields thanks to Fat Charlie) and there are pernanant multi-level built like brick shit house observation decks at the 50's.

I have no idae why they even needed a scissor truck.

[yogi]

What would he have held on to? He didn't fall out of the scissor lift, the entire lift toppled over. Working in refineries, it's commonplace to know that you don't even raise a scissor lift un-manned if the winds are up to 25 mph. 50 mph gusts, that kid was dead before he woke up that morning.

OK, now being serious.
Anyone ever ben to SB?

I'm there --- alot. I drove by the practice FB fields (they now have Bellichikian CIA security around the fields thanks to Fat Charlie) and there are pernanant multi-level built like brick shit house observation decks at the 50's.

I have no idae why they even needed a scissor truck.

I read that they used it for End Zone POVs.

[jb]

What would he have held on to? He didn't fall out of the scissor lift, the entire lift toppled over. Working in refineries, it's commonplace to know that you don't even raise a scissor lift un-manned if the winds are up to 25 mph. 50 mph gusts, that kid was dead before he woke up that morning.

OK, now being serious.
Anyone ever ben to SB?

I'm there --- alot. I drove by the practice FB fields (they now have Bellichikian CIA security around the fields thanks to Fat Charlie) and there are pernanant multi-level built like brick shit house observation decks at the 50's.

I have no idae why they even needed a scissor truck.

I read that they used it for End Zone POVs.

Ahhh. I get it.

I can also see where ND really needs to cut spending corners to have to use a truck an dnot just build a deck there. That campus looks like it is on it's last dime.

[peeker643]

Also being serious.

Dude shoulda jumped straight up in the air right before the thing hit the ground.

That's my fool-proof way to survive a plane crash by the way. I don't see how it can fail if you just time it right.

Alright, that wasn't really serious.

Suffice it to say some impressionable kid thankful to be a very small part of that tradition and program is going up that fucking platform unless specifically told otherwise.

The fact he wasn't specifically told otherwise is damn near willfull and wanton recklessness by the university. They can parcel out blame (or attempt to muddy the water by doing so), but bottom line is the institution fucked up bad.


Hope the family gets a fair shake. They're playing an away game regardless of whether the case comes locally or is removed to federal court. Any idea where the kid is from and if/how they might attain diversity?

[jb]

Also being serious.

Dude shoulda jumped straight up in the air right before the thing hit the ground.

That's my fool-proof way to survive a plane crash by the way. I don't see how it can fail if you just time it right.

Alright, that wasn't really serious.

Suffice it to say some impressionable kid thankful to be a very small part of that tradition and program is going up that fucking platform unless specifically told otherwise.

The fact he wasn't specifically told otherwise is damn near willfull and wanton recklessness by the university. They can parcel out blame (or attempt to muddy the water by doing so), but bottom line is the institution fucked up bad.


Hope the family gets a fair shake. They're playing an away game regardless of whether the case comes locally or is removed to federal court. Any idea where the kid is from and if/how they might attain diversity?

No the U's fault. Maybe not even BK's. Unrealistic to expect there to be that level of safety protocol and detal outside of an industrial setting IMhO. Sometimes you need brains and not rules. But whomever was in charge of securing the practice film who was over aged 25 and had the over all responsibility for that?

Culpable.

[peeker643]

No the U's fault. Maybe not even BK's. Unrealistic to expect there to be that level of safety protocol and detal outside of an industrial setting IMhO. Sometimes you need brains and not rules. But whomever was in charge of securing the practice film who was over aged 25 and had the over all responsibility for that?

Culpable.

Whomever that is works for the Univ though JB. It's not a private contractor. Whomever it has has their course and scope decided by the university. That's why it hangs on the university and needs to stay there so that family ain't chasing ghosts and facilities coordinators/supervisors/maintenance personnel all over the earth.

The family doesn't have the resources (I'm assuming) to fight that nebulous fight. Put it on the university, get it taken care of and resolved and then let the university parcel out the pink slips as they see fit. And it won't be BK (and maybe like you say it shouldn't be, IDK) if he's winning football games.

No less neglectful than sending some blind student into traffic is what they did. Whether it was an act of commission ("He'll be fine") or omission ("Never fucking thought about that kid up there") doesn't matter. Someone had the authority to get that kid down and that someone works for the university in all likelihood.

[jb]

No the U's fault. Maybe not even BK's. Unrealistic to expect there to be that level of safety protocol and detal outside of an industrial setting IMhO. Sometimes you need brains and not rules. But whomever was in charge of securing the practice film who was over aged 25 and had the over all responsibility for that?

Culpable.

Whomever that is works for the Univ though JB. It's not a private contractor. Whomever it has has their course and scope decided by the university. That's why it hangs on the university and needs to stay there so that family ain't chasing ghosts and facilities coordinators/supervisors/maintenance personnel all over the earth.

The family doesn't have the resources (I'm assuming) to fight that nebulous fight. Put it on the university, get it taken care of and resolved and then let the university parcel out the pink slips as they see fit. And it won't be BK (and maybe like you say it shouldn't be, IDK) if he's winning football games.

No more than sending some kid into traffic is what they did. Whether it was an act of commission or omission doesn't matter. Someone had the authority to get that kid down and that someone works for the university in all likelihood.

I get it, dude. U right.

But no one goes to ND who isn't "resourced" or is an athlete.

[peeker643]

No the U's fault. Maybe not even BK's. Unrealistic to expect there to be that level of safety protocol and detal outside of an industrial setting IMhO. Sometimes you need brains and not rules. But whomever was in charge of securing the practice film who was over aged 25 and had the over all responsibility for that?

Culpable.

Whomever that is works for the Univ though JB. It's not a private contractor. Whomever it has has their course and scope decided by the university. That's why it hangs on the university and needs to stay there so that family ain't chasing ghosts and facilities coordinators/supervisors/maintenance personnel all over the earth.

The family doesn't have the resources (I'm assuming) to fight that nebulous fight. Put it on the university, get it taken care of and resolved and then let the university parcel out the pink slips as they see fit. And it won't be BK (and maybe like you say it shouldn't be, IDK) if he's winning football games.

No more than sending some kid into traffic is what they did. Whether it was an act of commission or omission doesn't matter. Someone had the authority to get that kid down and that someone works for the university in all likelihood.

I get it, dude. U right.

But no one goes to ND who isn't "resourced" or is an athlete.

Not gonna lie. I haven't meant the person who's gone there who ain't relatively 'resourced'. Agree on that.

[FUDU]

Most of you probably wouldn't like the perspective that accidents do not just happen, and 99.999999999% of all "accidents" are avoidable.

While I am not saying I know the answer, I still see no benefit in blaming Kelly or enforcing a serious legal penalty on him, at this point.

I'll share a quick story. Know a relative that was recently in a horrible car crash, the other drive was killed at the scene and was at fault (no DUI involved), relative was beat up pretty good but OK, very shaken up after finding out of the death of the other driver. Bumps, bruises, doctor and hospital bills, etc... Many people that know this relative have suggest suing the remaining family. Outside of making sure the accident survivor has medical costs taken care of (which either insurance will do) what is the point of a suit?

People are unbelievable.

[peeker643]

Most of you probably wouldn't like the perspective that accidents do not just happen, and 99.999999999% of all "accidents" are avoidable.

......Outside of making sure the accident survivor has medical costs taken care of (which either insurance will do) what is the point of a suit?

People are unbelievable.

What's the threshhold though Donny. If your relative had lost a limb suit is in order, right? Or fractured a bone? What about headaches or recurring nightmares that don't go away? What if his arms start tingling in a few weeks and he needs some type of procedure?

There's special and general damages. Specials are the cost of meds and wages. Tangible. The general damages seek to account for the pain (physical and mental) and the inconveniences.


It's like anything else brother. It's a fine and just system if it's not abused by people looking to take advantage of it.

There's a place for it. Believe me. I work for an insurance company and there are definitely times when a lawsuit is the only way to proceed.

All different types of negligence too. Would you feel differently if trhe dude who caused the accident was drunk? High? Overtired and fell aslee? Texting? Took the wrong meds?

[FUDU]

Most of you probably wouldn't like the perspective that accidents do not just happen, and 99.999999999% of all "accidents" are avoidable.

......Outside of making sure the accident survivor has medical costs taken care of (which either insurance will do) what is the point of a suit?

People are unbelievable.

What's the threshhold though Donny. If your relative had lost a limb suit is in order, right? Or fractured a bone? What about headaches or recurring nightmares that don't go away? What if his arms start tingling in a few weeks and he needs some type of procedure?

There's special and general damages. Specials are the cost of meds and wages. Tangible. The general damages seek to account for the pain (physical and mental) and the inconveniences.


It's like anything else brother. It's a fine and just system if it's not abused by people looking to take advantage of it.

There's a place for it. Believe me. I work for an insurance company and there are definitely times when a lawsuit is the only way to proceed.

All different types of negligence too. Would you feel differently if trhe dude who caused the accident was drunk? High? Overtired and fell aslee? Texting? Took the wrong meds?

They had a small fracture, and there is a possibility of some long term disability at their age I suppose. If the driver at fault lived, then suing for a small amount of protection could be warranted sure, b/c IMO you'd be dealing directly with the root cause of the crash. Hence my point, why go after the remaining family, not only did they not cause the crash, but I'm sure they are suffering in their way as well, to them equal suffering most likely. It'd be like JB going after me b/c Ed's whooped Iggy's ass.

Notice too how I never said accident.

[peeker643]

They had a small fracture, and there is a possibility of some long term disability at their age I suppose. If the driver at fault lived, then suing for a small amount of protection could be warranted sure, b/c IMO you'd be dealing directly with the root cause of the crash. Hence my point, why go after the remaining family, not only did they not cause the crash, but I'm sure they are suffering in their way as well, to them equal suffering most likely. It'd be like JB going after me b/c Ed's whooped Iggy's ass.

Notice too how I never said accident.

You're not. You're going after the insurance company that accepted premium to protect the decedent.

Look, I hate, HATE, bullshit lawsuits. All for tort reform. Shit, No-Fault systems are fine with me.

But people get hurt at the hands of others and in many cases they are eligible for that kind of compensation. Injuries have long term effects. There's a value to that plain and simple. Make sure your relative allows some time to pass before signing a release. There are times that problems dont manifest for a few months.

Make sure he's good to go before he lets it go. And yeah, I respect the fact that he respects the decedent's family. But still, the sytem is set up to protect your relative and the decedent/decedent family. Make sure your relative understands that it's not in bad taste to be made whole.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

LOMFINGL.

Its like some time, I think 1 am. But that Peek/JB banter was hilarious.

You're bpht dicks.

Seriously....

YOU THink thats fcuking funny? HUH ? HUH> HUH?

It was.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAFUCKINHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

STFU, assholes.........

Doesn't this proove there is no god? I mean he wsa fuckin all Catholic and shit. "Choosen People" my right nut. That's why this siht wouldnt happen to Tress, JB, you fat basterd (ttoo mean?), Tress is teh guy really in with that Jesus cat. Just fuckin ask him you lumbering dolt.

[FUDU]

I've never thought of JB as lumbering.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I've never thought of JB as lumbering.

Yeah...... One of my friends called me that earlier in the night and I really liked it and wanted to use it. Alcohol, man.

[FUDU]

Never mind cdt, you're obviously still drunk, but it's all good.

[Cerebral_DownTime]

I am not drunk.

[peeker643]

Nice to see an institution go to those lengths and admit they were at fault:
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5768852

The president of the University of Notre Dame sent an e-mail to students, faculty, staff and alumni Friday saying that the school is responsible for a student videographer's death because it failed to protect him.

"Declan Sullivan was entrusted to our care, and we failed to keep him safe," the Rev. John Jenkins wrote. "We at Notre Dame and ultimately I as president are responsible. Words cannot express our sorrow to the Sullivan family and to all involved."

[Fire Marshall Bill]

Nice to see an institution go to those lengths and admit they were at fault:
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5768852

The president of the University of Notre Dame sent an e-mail to students, faculty, staff and alumni Friday saying that the school is responsible for a student videographer's death because it failed to protect him.

"Declan Sullivan was entrusted to our care, and we failed to keep him safe," the Rev. John Jenkins wrote. "We at Notre Dame and ultimately I as president are responsible. Words cannot express our sorrow to the Sullivan family and to all involved."

I'm seriously bewildered at those who think there is no fault by those who were in charge.

To me, this is an instance of supposedly smart people looking at a machine and thinking that any dummy can operate it because all it does is go up and down and that no one above the kid was responsible for his safety.

Kudos to the HMFIC at Notre Lame but, its not like he had any choices other than blaming the kid himself.

Shame on the Lame for caring more about practice than the safety of its students and if I'm the family's lawyer I'm using thias quote right here to make a case:

The head football coach has final say over everything that transpires on the practice field. Everything. That’s why Ohio State’s Jim Tressel moved the Buckeyes’ practice inside on Tuesday when wind gusts made conditions unsafe.

“I don’t know if we’ll be inside or out,” Tressel told Ohio reporters 24 hours before the Notre Dame tragedy. “It looks a little nasty. I worry about our cameramen, their well-being up there 50 feet in the air.”

[jb]

Shame on the Lame for caring more about practice than the safety of its students

Did you see any of the Tulsa game?

If I had that sorry assed bunch I'd have sent him up in the vortex of a level 5 to run one more 7 on 7 .

I don't think Fat Charlie made call one to a recruit in 3 years.