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Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby comish » Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:52 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:81 games to go, but there ain't no way you're convincing me that wasn't a huge win.


It was a big win, Madre, for whole truck load of reasons.

It doesn't matter that the Cs were back to back, or even disinterested. This Cavs team, and I'll even say this city needed that win to move on....mission accomplished.

I'm not saying they will do much this year, but at least they gave us THAT.

Thanks Fellas :clap:
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:58 pm

comish wrote:
Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:81 games to go, but there ain't no way you're convincing me that wasn't a huge win.


It was a big win, Madre, for whole truck load of reasons.

It doesn't matter that the Cs were back to back, or even disinterested. This Cavs team, and I'll even say this city needed that win to move on....mission accomplished.

I'm not saying they will do much this year, but at least they gave us THAT.

Thanks Fellas :clap:



Agreed. That was good for them and good for us.

It's also exactly the game the C's will lose a lot of this season: 2nd night night of back to back against a team that ain't getting their attention.

Taking nothing away from that win because it is a nice little fuck you to a lot of people.

But not sure I'd be puffing out that chest and strutting for too long. ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby BruceK » Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:03 pm

See, you can beat the Celtics if you don't quit during the game.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:06 pm

peeker643 wrote:But not sure I'd be puffing out that chest and strutting for too long. ;-) ;) :wink:


If the Celtics aren't on the road on a back-to-back, yeah, its a different game. But I think we just answered anyone who thought this team was DOA.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:32 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
peeker643 wrote:But not sure I'd be puffing out that chest and strutting for too long. ;-) ;) :wink:


If the Celtics aren't on the road on a back-to-back, yeah, its a different game. But I think we just answered anyone who thought this team was DOA.



There are other threads on the topic so people who want to talk about it can go there, but it really all depends on your definition of 'DOA'.

If DOA means getting excited about a win over a playoff team then I guess that's one issue in itself.

I remember years past when we as a fan base actually expected beat the C's at home. And the Heat...and the Lakers...and the Magic....and the Bulls...

Shit, for as much as I'm convinced this is a 30 win team (and I still am) I noted on Twitter a win tonight wouldn't be the least bit stunning given C's MO and back-to-back.
So, yes, I'm happy to see it. It meant something to any of us who follow the club regularly.

But moral victories, even in the form of an actual victory, blow.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Dellucci TailGator » Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:34 pm

I thought the Cavs would get hammered on the glass, but they played even on the boards. Pleasantly surprised.

But 6 of 20 from behind the arc won't work. Need better than that.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:39 pm

I meant DOA as in anyone who thinks this is a 30 win or less ping-pong ball team. I'm holding to 40 wins at the least.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:43 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:I meant DOA as in anyone who thinks this is a 30 win or less ping-pong ball team. I'm holding to 40 wins at the least.


Minimally 40 huh?

Ok.

I admire your pluck.

We shall see.

Just 39 more.

And then they'll be perfectly set up for.....40 more next year??

Yay. ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby TouchEmAllTime » Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:58 pm

I wouldn't mind having to call Sam Amico a genius in a few months oh and the Halloween banner is excellent.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Triple-S » Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:03 pm

I'm sort of happy I'm still following the Cavs still.

Is it not the same? Yeah

But, I feel quite guilt ridden that I didn't follow them nearly enough prior to the ping pong ball bouncing our way.

I think that you'll see a team sort of similiar to say, Atlanta the past couple of years. Good enough to get like a 5 seed, has some decent players..but again, lacks the guy.

My main question is..can the cavs "Rebuild" without having to "Rebuild"?..Meaning, can they remain a playoff team, while trying to become a Championship team?
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby peeker643 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:18 pm

Triple-S wrote:I'm sort of happy I'm still following the Cavs still.

Is it not the same? Yeah

But, I feel quite guilt ridden that I didn't follow them nearly enough prior to the ping pong ball bouncing our way.

I think that you'll see a team sort of similiar to say, Atlanta the past couple of years. Good enough to get like a 5 seed, has some decent players..but again, lacks the guy.

My main question is..can the cavs "Rebuild" without having to "Rebuild"?..Meaning, can they remain a playoff team, while trying to become a Championship team?



Again, not to be the cynic because the "Us against the World" thing is great until it really effing blows, but they can always do what they've done historically to be great. And that's been to draft extremely well and then land the big name free agents here or be bad enough to get really lucky in the perfect year to be really lucky.

One of the two. They've done well with both those avenues in their history....

Wait a second....
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Ziner » Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:25 pm

Yeah, SSS, a 5 seed? Dont get delusional over this game, just enjoy it. They played hard, they moved the ball, they fought back after being down. It was a good solid win, but by no means is this a 5 seed. This season will be a "success" if they get the 8. I can't see them moving up any higher than that.

This team still needs to do some solid losing to re-build a core and by re-build a core I mean get a stud.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Toxicadam » Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:33 pm

You know what was better than the win?

The camera cutting to the sidelines and not seeing a glazed-over, slack-jawed fool looking onto the court. You cut to Scott and he looks aware, present and determined.

God damn, its about time.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby tired » Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:17 am

If Brown was still coaching cavs would of got hammered. It looks like a new team not cuz of a loss of a quitter but, cuz of a much better coach. A new look offense.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:01 am

The whole concept of "The Cavs should just stop pretending and give up their low playoff seed and tank and hope the ping-pong balls fall their way and get a high draft pick" just pisses me off to no extent.

I'm not saying it's not the smart move. As the Cavs are, they cannot realistically expect to compete for an NBA Championship.

Maybe they can suck something fierce and get the gods to bless them with spectacular ping-pong balls and get the next LeBron. Or maybe they get the next Darko. Or the next Greg Oden.

Not every top pick is a LeBron James (assuming we'd want to go through that again). Even a LeBron can choke/quit year after year after year.

Yeah, I do realize that talent is more important in the NBA than anywhere else in the universe. But I'd rather root for the 6-7 seed faceless Cavs than hope for disaster just for the CHANCE of getting a high pick so you have a CHANCE of being a port in the storm for some douchebag prima donna. Especially considering the NBA labor situation is probably worse than the NFL's.

No, do as well as you can NOW. Do as well as you can ALWAYS.

The NBA's all fucked up, but that doesn't mean I have to watch it after the Cavs are ousted. I love basketball, but I hate the NBA. I don't "love this game". The only reason I watch it at all is that the Cavs are a Cleveland team.

With the system as is, I don't think the Cavs will ever win a title. So do the best you can. Make it interesting.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:17 am

Triple-S wrote:
My main question is..can the cavs "Rebuild" without having to "Rebuild"?..Meaning, can they remain a playoff team, while trying to become a Championship team?


I think that's what Dan Gilbert wants so we have to hope it works.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:59 am

Sorry to pull a souldawg here and hijack, but my question from the other topic remains: given that you have some very nice supporting peices (Sessions, Hickson, AV, Mo, etc) is there a possibility that this team can use draft picks/trade exception/etc to grab a guy at the break if they are doing well to make waves? Is seeing success right now THAT hopeless?
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:52 am

Hikohadon wrote:The whole concept of "The Cavs should just stop pretending and give up their low playoff seed and tank and hope the ping-pong balls fall their way and get a high draft pick" just pisses me off to no extent.

I'm not saying it's not the smart move. As the Cavs are, they cannot realistically expect to compete for an NBA Championship.

.....................

No, do as well as you can NOW. Do as well as you can ALWAYS.

The NBA's all fucked up, but that doesn't mean I have to watch it after the Cavs are ousted. I love basketball, but I hate the NBA. I don't "love this game". The only reason I watch it at all is that the Cavs are a Cleveland team.

With the system as is, I don't think the Cavs will ever win a title. So do the best you can. Make it interesting.


Can't do it. Can't get behind being the Washington Generals of the NBA EVERY year. I need to have hope that there's a payoff down the line. So while I agree with you on the NBA thing I need to see the local team do whatever they can to try and rise above that situation.

And we'll both agree that sound drafts and key free agent acquisitions hasn't worked before. I don't wanna be the Atlanta Hawks and someone's fodder on the way to the trophy celebration every year.

Why bother? We have better things to do with that two hours three nights a week anyway.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Prosecutor » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:55 am

Biggest improvements over last year:

1. The head coach. Not even close.
2. Ball movement. See #1.

Biggest dis-improvements:

1. What Austin said. No go-to Guy to bail the team out when the offense is stalled, the shot clock is running down, and there's no time to run a play.

2. We have nobody who can handle a big man with bulk and movement skills. Big Baby pretty much got to wherever he wanted to go and was 7-for-11 from the field. Jamison in particular had no chance against him. This will continue to be a problem.

The old Celtics wilted in the 4th quarter, getting outscored 27-14. The Cavs would not have won if the Celts had the night before off, but it was a sweet win nonetheless. We needed a win like this.

The Big Three looked old. Ray Allen was 4-13 from the field, Garnett got only 9 points and was outplayed by Hickson, and Pierce was 5-12 with 13 points. Shaq was a non-factor and quickly got in foul trouble. Boston was only 3-12 from the 3-point line, probably due to tired legs.

The Cavs players that made the biggest impression on me were JJ, Hollins, and Moon. Hollins came off the bench to score 10 points and 4 rebounds in only 15 minutes. He's a 7-footer with movement skills who crashed the boards for put-backs and also knocked down a 15-footer. Maybe he just needed to be in the right system. I was concerned Andy would get worn down with no decent backup but with Hollins giving productive minutes off the bench that won't be a problem.

Moon did a great defensive job on Pierce, holding him to 13 points while scoring 10 himself and pulling down some boards. Maybe the small forward position won't be the weak link after all.

Hickson showed he can do more than dunk off a pick-and-roll. He hit a couple of 15-foot jumpers. He hit a fallaway. He drove when he had a lane. He finished a fast break in traffic. He knocked down his foul shots and even threw down a running hook shot. He scored six or seven different ways, which I was not expecting.

Nobody played more than 35 minutes as Scott went with a 9-player rotation, and that was with Mo in street clothes. This team will be able to play an up-tempo, high-intensity style all year.

Like everybody else I liked the ball movement. Shaq and Z really slowed down the game last year, and then there was that other guy that liked to dribble away the seconds while 4 other guys watched. The Cavs won't win 60 this year, but they should be worth watching.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby papacass » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:14 am

I'm starting to think that the Cavs need another big man before they worry about upgrading the SG or SF positions.

They'll get plenty of scoring night in and night out from the wing positions, especially once Mo gets it in gear. But they need a post scorer/defender of some kind, and Andy isn't it. J.J. is more of a mid-range player. Best when facing the basket.

If the Cavs play all season like they played on Wednesday, they'll be a pesky underdog capable of stealing some games against contenders here and there. If they play like this with some additional beef in the post, they might turn into a team that can not only make the playoffs, but be a pain in the ass once they get there.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Larvell Blanks » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:31 am

This stat stood out last night to me...

FT 17-21
81%

not many games that this team has been over this mark these past few years. The Cavs are gonna have to make them count when they get 'em as they won't be getting to the line as often as years past.

Two quotes also stand out
"I'm very proud of our guys because there were times in this game, the third quarter especially, that we got down by double digits and could have mailed it in, but they didn't. They are starting to trust each other big time." -- Byron Scott

"I think they value that their true strength is playing together. They don't have that one or two go-to guys, but they do play well together. When you don't match that, you find yourself in difficulty." -- Kevin Garnett

While this team isn't going to go out and win 60+ games, they're team concept and trust in one another is going to win them a few and keep them in a lot more than expected.

Hopefully Sessions is going to harness some of that energy and dish the ball off on a couple of his drives unlike last night. He threw up some wild shots and looked way out of control.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby papacass » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:33 am

Hikohadon wrote:No, do as well as you can NOW. Do as well as you can ALWAYS.

The NBA's all fucked up, but that doesn't mean I have to watch it after the Cavs are ousted. I love basketball, but I hate the NBA. I don't "love this game". The only reason I watch it at all is that the Cavs are a Cleveland team.

With the system as is, I don't think the Cavs will ever win a title. So do the best you can. Make it interesting.


This.

I'd also add that right now, you have a highly-motivated group of players who have been hearing all summer how they're going to suck rotten eggs this season. This was the team team that LeBron deemed unworthy as a supporting cast. This was the team that LeBron couldn't win a title with.

So all Mo, J.J., Andy etc. have been hearing is that they're a bunch of talentless hacks. Whether they'll let on or not, they're pissed. LBJ thinks he's pissed at his haters who have been tweeting mean things to him? He'll never know the level of pissed that the current Cavs are at.

You dismantle the works, chances are you bring in a bunch of Ricky Davises who just want to get their touches and get their checks. You lose the motivation this team has right now. You saw how hard it was to surrond LeBron with quasi-adequate teammates? It took five years just to get Mo in here.

That is excatly the problem the next-gen Cavs would have if you field a crap team and then draft a budding superstar. You're right back to finding a way to rid yourself of the flotsam that allowed you to be bad enough to draft the would-be superstar, and bring in a worthwhile supporting cast. That can take years, if you can even do it at all.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:59 am

Guess it's all what you're looking for.

If you want highly motivated, less talented guys who try hard then you'll really enjoy this season and watching them try and chug up that hill.

If you've come to enjoy deep playoff runs and a feeling that a title is possible (regardless of how off track that may have turned out) then you'll probably be disgusted by the little engine that could routine.

I understand what you guys find appealing about it. I lived it for the first 33 years or so of franchise history. Enjoyed it in 1976 with Bingo and Nate and Dick Snyder's runner to beat the Bullets and in the '90s with that crew.

I just don't find it appealing any more. No more so that hoping a bunch of likeable grinders can win 80 games with the Indians.

Just where I am I guess.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:01 am

Obviously, the only answer is to go Tanya Harding on about 4-5 guys' shins (and then pin it on LeBron). The injuries will make the Cavs so bad they'll get their pick but keep all their players, who will be healthy the following season.

Call it the Spurs Plan.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:11 am

peeker643 wrote:Guess it's all what you're looking for.

If you want highly motivated, less talented guys who try hard then you'll really enjoy this season and watching them try and chug up that hill.

If you've come to enjoy deep playoff runs and a feeling that a title is possible (regardless of how off track that may have turned out) then you'll probably be disgusted by the little engine that could routine.

I understand what you guys find appealing about it. I lived it for the first 33 years or so of franchise history. Enjoyed it in 1976 with Bingo and Nate and Dick Snyder's runner to beat the Bullets and in the '90s with that crew.

I just don't find it appealing any more. No more so that hoping a bunch of likeable grinders can win 80 games with the Indians.

Just where I am I guess.

This is probably just me, but I didn't enjoy the last 2 years. I didn't enjoy watching the regular season games because they were meaningless preambles to the inevitable championship playoff run.

And I didn't enjoy the playoffs because the one and only satisfactory result a team built for a championship can bring is a championship, especially when said team has such a small window due to one player holding the team hostage and likely to bolt.

I might agree with you 100% 2 years from now, but, for this season, I'm just happy to be enjoying Cavs basketball again.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:19 am

Guess it's all what you're looking for.

If you want highly motivated, less talented guys who try hard then you'll really enjoy this season and watching them try and chug up that hill.

If you've come to enjoy deep playoff runs and a feeling that a title is possible (regardless of how off track that may have turned out) then you'll probably be disgusted by the little engine that could routine.



So what are you looking for? For Lebron to walk back through that door? Sure, sounds like it with the talk of deep playoff runs and possible titles. Does that mean you won't be watching these "disgusting" Cavs this year?
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:35 am

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:So what are you looking for? For Lebron to walk back through that door? Sure, sounds like it with the talk of deep playoff runs and possible titles. Does that mean you won't be watching these "disgusting" Cavs this year?


Yes. I'm expecting LBJ to walk back through that door. That's exactly what I'm thinking will happen.

What I think is people want to believe this team is better than it actually is as much out of spite for LBJ holding the org hostage as for any actual reality-based reason.

It's puzzling to me why anyone would prefer watching a mediocre (top end) team try and reach the playoffs than watch a team with legit title aspirations.


Don't get me wrong: I hate the tool for doing what he did. But it seems odd to me that toiling in mediocrity with guys who try hard is the best way to throw it in his face.


Mediocrity doesn't interest me Rebel. And you're looking at another decade of it without a tear down in my opinion. Bottom line is there's no difference to me if they win 40 or 15 and the benefits of winning 15 outweigh the 25 game difference.

YMMV.

And dude, 'disgusted vs. digusting' is a simple concept. I'm disgusted the Buckeyes lost another game they should have won a couple weekends ago. That doesn't make the one-loss Buckeyes digusting. So don't alter what I'm saying or the concept please. :salute:
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:35 am

The '03-'08 Pistons were completely built on midrange free agents(Billups, Ben Wallace), trades(Hamilton, Rasheed), and low draft picks(Tayshaun). They had one high draft pick and gagged it(Darko). I know they're the only team to win the title without a star since disco but they had a great 6 year run and easily could have won a couple more. I'm not saying it's easy but there are ways to built a contender without striking gold in the lottery. You can always decide to blow up your team but it's often very hard to get a winning culture back after you tank. Even with LeBron, it took us 3 years to become a playoff team.

And to the poster who said we needed another big guy, I completely agree. I'm still at a loss as to why we didn't trump Utah's offer for Al Jefferson. Our 2011 first rounder(in what's looking like a weak draft), one of the crappy Heat first rounders, and the trade exception probably would have done the trick. I don't know what better player will be available to us this year for that low of a price.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Prosecutor » Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:43 am

No point in debating it. We have no choice. We're The Little Engine That Could. Gilbert isn't going to blow it up. It's not in his nature to fail on purpose. If that's the plan, he got the wrong head coach.

You can't win a Title without a superstar and we can't get one, unless we can find another Timberwolves/Kevin Garnett situation, and nobody's going to make that mistake again. Best case scenario is the Atlanta Hawks, "someone else's fodder on the way to the trophy celebration" as Peeks put it. As Bobby Knight said, you might as well just lie back and enjoy it.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby papacass » Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:20 pm

Peek, we obviously all want titles. After 46 years, and more to come, without a parade, we'd all love to draw the line at championship or bust.

But it just isn't happening. You can't build for titles if you're the Cavs or Indians. The deck is just stacked too heavily against them. It's just not worth it to wreck the roster for a shot at another superstar that you might or might not get via the draft, and then try to rebuild the wrecked roster around the superstar while the clock is ticking toward his imminent departure.

In a market like Cleveland, you need to win with a team, a coach and a philosophy. You build the template and find the players to fill that template.

What you need to be aiming for if you're the Cavs is a team that can contend for a top four seed every year. And if the stars align right -- i.e. teams like the Heat, Celtics, Magic etc. have down years or get hammered with injuries -- you might be able to seize the moment and vault past them as a dark horse.

It's not going to get any better than that, year in and year out. If you go the team/philosophy route, at least you're in the chase pack each year. If you go the implode/wait for next LBJ route, you condemn yourself to another cycle of what just happened.

Bottom line: Since being the Lakers or Celtics is an impossibility, I'd rather be the Utah Jazz.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:42 pm

Prosecutor wrote:As Bobby Knight said, you might as well just lie back and enjoy it.

I thought Ben Roethlisberger said that.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:56 pm

papacass wrote:Peek, we obviously all want titles. After 46 years, and more to come, without a parade, we'd all love to draw the line at championship or bust.

But it just isn't happening. You can't build for titles if you're the Cavs or Indians. The deck is just stacked too heavily against them. It's just not worth it to wreck the roster for a shot at another superstar that you might or might not get via the draft, and then try to rebuild the wrecked roster around the superstar while the clock is ticking toward his imminent departure.

In a market like Cleveland, you need to win with a team, a coach and a philosophy. You build the template and find the players to fill that template.

What you need to be aiming for if you're the Cavs is a team that can contend for a top four seed every year. And if the stars align right -- i.e. teams like the Heat, Celtics, Magic etc. have down years or get hammered with injuries -- you might be able to seize the moment and vault past them as a dark horse.

It's not going to get any better than that, year in and year out. If you go the team/philosophy route, at least you're in the chase pack each year. If you go the implode/wait for next LBJ route, you condemn yourself to another cycle of what just happened.

Bottom line: Since being the Lakers or Celtics is an impossibility, I'd rather be the Utah Jazz.


Like I said, I don't need a participation ribbon. If that's what you're hoping for and content with then you should be pleased with the direction the team is heading from last season to this one.

Different strokes and all that. My feeling is if you have no chance then why bother? Nope, I'd rather be the Marlins personally. Thunder would be okay too. ;-) ;) :wink: They have a few number ones on that roster. A couple were even their own.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:10 pm

I think there's a Simmons analogy to crazy hot chicks, but I'm not gonna be the one to go that route.

I'll just leave it that for every Thunder, there's a dozen Raptors Timberwolves Hawks Bucks Grizzlies and Warriors.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:17 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:I think there's a Simmons analogy to crazy hot chicks, but I'm not gonna be the one to go that route.

I'll just leave it that for every Thunder, there's a dozen Raptors Timberwolves Hawks Bucks Grizzlies and Warriors.


I find it amusing you didn't put the 2010/2011 Cavs in that group. Especially since the Cavs were founding members of it for 30 of their 40 years.

I'm getting charged up just THINKING about the race for that 7th and 8th seed.

/yawn

;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby peeker643 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:38 pm

Just one other consideration to....umm...consider.

I'm not opposed to a talented roster boys. I'm fine with guys like JJ and Ramon Sessions and see what you have. Where I think you need to make moves is with guys like Tawn, Mo and Andy. Stockpile the picks you can by getting optimal value from those bigger dollar/limited contribution guys. Use the weapons you have available this season to acquire more picks.

Then pray to sweet holy Jesus that something happens to even the playing field in the CBA that's expiring. I'm not saying there's a big chance of that. But if things do break a bit better as a result of the CBA then you're moving ahead of the rest of the teams in your boat.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Ziner » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:51 pm

peeker643 wrote:Just one other consideration to....umm...consider.

I'm not opposed to a talented roster boys. I'm fine with guys like JJ and Ramon Sessions and see what you have. Where I think you need to make moves is with guys like Tawn, Mo and Andy. Stockpile the picks you can by getting optimal value from those bigger dollar/limited contribution guys. Use the weapons you have available this season to acquire more picks.

Then pray to sweet holy Jesus that something happens to even the playing field in the CBA that's expiring. I'm not saying there's a big chance of that. But if things do break a bit better as a result of the CBA then you're moving ahead of the rest of the teams in your boat.


Exactly, you dont trade your young talent. No one is talking about trading JJ for Ricky Davis so we can really suck. But if have to play Sessions, Boobie, Jamario, JJ and Hollins with Christian Eyenga coming off the bench well then you get the youngins some time to grow and develop while you use Mo, Twan and Andy to assemble some young talent or picks. Frankly I don't know why you guys would rather watch a 6th seed who gets a first round bounce every year over watching a team like the Thunder two years ago or the Kings now. Sure it is risky, but I know with the plan of sitting on our hands we won't win a chip. Let me watch the young kids.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Ziner » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:54 pm

oh and if everyone is so worried about getting the next Darko instead of the next LeBron...well if Grant can't judge talent then none of this matters anyway. How the hell would he ever hit at 15-18 every year which is what we would need, if there is no confidence he can hit on 2 lottery picks.

No to mention, instead of being Atlanta you could become Detroit and be forced in to a re-build because you try holding on too long and sign Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva for over market value because you were trying to hold on... and dont pretend that can't happen.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:28 pm

The whole argument boils down to whether or not you believe that the Cavs have a legit shot to win a championship in the current system.

Yes, the Cavs did have a few years there just recently that proves they can compete at the highest levels IF everything - and I mean every little thing - goes just perfect. All you have to do is have lightning strike twice. All you have to do is suck really bad, and then hope the ping-pong balls fall your way, and then hope the guy you draft is a once-every-10-year talent like LeBron James (assuming there is one in that draft).

Then all you have to do after that is find a way to surround the guy with championship caliber talent before he bolts for one of the glamour markets.

If the CBA changes the system drastically, then maybe I'll hope that a team like the Cavs can actually win a Championship. Until then, I just don't believe it can happen.

So I'd rather have them play as hard as they can and get that 6-8 seed and just hope for things to fall into place for them than have them suck to the point of being unwatchable and still be just hoping for things to fall into place for them.

Cuz, probably either way, they ain't bringin' home no trophy. Apparently, you need at least 3 Superstars to have a chance to compete in today's NBA. The players, the media, the advertisers, and probably the NBA itself have Cleveland way down on the list of "places to make that happen".

PS - Yes, either path, they should trade Twan and Mo for picks. Neither one of those guys is a team-breaker if dealt.
Last edited by Hikohadon on Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:35 pm

Ziner wrote:oh and if everyone is so worried about getting the next Darko instead of the next LeBron...well if Grant can't judge talent then none of this matters anyway. How the hell would he ever hit at 15-18 every year which is what we would need, if there is no confidence he can hit on 2 lottery picks.

Darko's failure doesn't mean the GM that drafted him can't judge talent. Every GM in the league was on Darko's jock - several had him rated higher than LeBron on potential.

Sometimes guys just fail when making the move to the next level.

Sure, it's easier to hit on a lottery pick. But not every lottery pick is going to be a franchise-changer. Lots are just pretty good. Some have injury problems and never meet their potential. Some just are busts.

There are no guarantees. If there were, then, sure, go ahead and tank.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Ziner » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:37 pm

Then I dont understand, because they certainly arent a 6-8 seed without Twan and Mo.

Regardless, Lebron James might be a once in every 10 year talent, but you dont need Lebron James to win a championship. In fact to quote Seth Meyers, literally every team that has won a championship has done it with out Lebron James.

What we need is not necessarily Lebron to be back to have a chance, and while he is certainly a once in 10 year "talent" there are plenty of other talents that can compete for championships. Howard, Durant, Kobe, Duncan, Carmelo, Wade, Rose, Paul, Dirk, Yao etc... all those guys have or will compete for championships and they aren't Lebron. I dont know that anyone is looking at the top picks and planning on getting Lebron, but getting a couple all-stars would be nice.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:54 pm

Ziner wrote:Then I dont understand, because they certainly arent a 6-8 seed without Twan and Mo.

Regardless, Lebron James might be a once in every 10 year talent, but you dont need Lebron James to win a championship. In fact to quote Seth Meyers, literally every team that has won a championship has done it with out Lebron James.

What we need is not necessarily Lebron to be back to have a chance, and while he is certainly a once in 10 year "talent" there are plenty of other talents that can compete for championships. Howard, Durant, Kobe, Duncan, Carmelo, Wade, Rose, Paul, Dirk, Yao etc... all those guys have or will compete for championships and they aren't Lebron. I dont know that anyone is looking at the top picks and planning on getting Lebron, but getting a couple all-stars would be nice.

Mo didn't play last night. He was not missed.

Twan... we'll see as the year goes on. I can't gauge his value to this team yet.

As for the names you rattled off, that's cherry picking years and years worth of top picks. Should I cherry pick some names from the 14-20 range? There's probably some good ones there too.

Plus, using your list, let's say the Cavs got Dirk Nowitzki in 2003 instead of LeBron. Everything else goes down the same. Do they go to the Finals? Are they the top seed in the East the last 2 years? They needed a once-in-10-years talent just to drag them as far as they got.

Like I said, maybe you can have your team suck so bad that you get the pick and you're fortunate enough that the guy you draft is a Superstar.

Now you just need 1 more and at least one Star and a couple of really good role players.

There is NO formula for the Clevelands of the league to win a championship.

The most we can ask from them is to at least entertain us.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby British_Pharaoh » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:10 pm

Hikohadon wrote:The whole argument boils down to whether or not you believe that the Cavs have a legit shot to win a championship in the current system.

Yes, the Cavs did have a few years there just recently that proves they can compete at the highest levels IF everything - and I mean every little thing - goes just perfect. All you have to do is have lightning strike twice. All you have to do is suck really bad, and then hope the ping-pong balls fall your way, and then hope the guy you draft is a once-every-10-year talent like LeBron James (assuming there is one in that draft).

Then all you have to do after that is find a way to surround the guy with championship caliber talent before he bolts for one of the glamour markets.


We didn't come close with the best player in the game. It's not all about 1 superstar and 9 above average guys.

Need balance. 2-3 all star calibre players who bring different qualities on the court (like Duncan and Parker) and surrounding them with decent contributors.

I guess what I'm saying is get the big man situation sorted first then bring in a great facilitating playmaker then you're golden
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby papacass » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:18 pm

Fans want titles. That's a fan thing. If you're thinking about it from Dan Gilbert's standpoint, however, it's more important to put butts in the seats and keep the merchandise moving through the new two-level team shop at The Q.

You do that by continuing to field a competitive team that wins more than it loses, and is fun to watch. Maybe they're a 6-seed one year and a 3-seed the next, but they're always in the mix.

Gilbert blows some pretty good smoke about how it's all about the ring. But he didn't get to where he is on the business food chain by being financially impractical. He knows the lay of the land in the NBA.

So Gilbert is going to prop up the fan base with some histrionics and try to pad what he already has on the court, just hoping that he doesn't have to blow it all up and descend to 15 wins and crowds of 3,000, which is death to revenue streams. Screw up a couple of draft picks and you're the Dolans, turning your pockets inside out and crying small market as your team plays .400 ball every year.

Gilbert has to look across the street and be terrified of what the Cavs could become. He'll do everything he can to avoid descending to that level, because in this town, with this economy, you might never recover. Then, you truly would be pinning all your hopes on drafting another LeBron. It would be your only miracle shot.

That really doesn't seem all that appealing to me.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Ziner » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:22 pm

Alright enough generalities. Here is my calculations. Top 5 picks (I took the liberty of taking top 6 in the 2006 class since it was the worst class in a long time because of the 1 year college rule being implemented and because it included Brandon Roy at 6 ;-) ;) :wink: )

According to my judging. Top 5 picks you get a stud 29% of the time, a piece to a good team 37% of the time (obviously at different levels because Ben Gordon and Russell Westbook are both considering pieces in my mind). That leaves 34% when you get a bust.

I am not totally sure what it gives us, but at least there are some numbers to look at when considering the odds of dropping to the lottery and then bouncing back up to prominence.


Food for thought with some guess as to what the probabilities are.

(Supposed to be a matrix but formatting is cooperating)

year 1
stud piece bust
stud 8% 11% 10%
year 2 piece 11% 14% 13%
bust 10% 13% 12%


2009
Griffin potential stud
Thabeet probable bust
Harden piece
Evans piece
Rubio who knows

2008
Rose Stud
Beasley bust
Mayo piece
Westbrook piece
Love piece

2007
Oden bust
Durant stud
Horford piece
Conley bust
Green piece

*2006 - dilluted draft class
Bargnani piece
Aldridge piece
Morrison bust
Ty Thomas bust
Shelden Williams bust
Roy stud

2005
Bogut piece
Marvin Williams bust
Deron Williams stud
Chris Paul stud
Felton bust

2004
Howard stud
Okafor bust
Gordon bust/piece
Livingston bust
Devin Harris piece

2003
Lebron stud
Darko bust
Anthony stud
Bosh piece
Wade stud
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby papacass » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:28 pm

Bottom line, you want a healthy franchise. You don't want a sick franchise that needs a LeBron to swoop in and rescue it.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:29 pm

STFU Ziner, with your lists and stats, nerd.

I loved the game. Nice to beat the Celtics.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Ziner » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:34 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Ziner you are so fucking smart with your lists and stats. Nice work, I wish I wasn't always too stoned or drunk to be able to read or understand them.

I loved the game. Nice to beat the Celtics.


Thanks CDT.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Hikohadon » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:37 pm

That list actually makes me dislike the "suck and hope" tactic more than I already did.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Ziner » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:43 pm

Hikohadon wrote:That list actually makes me dislike the "suck and hope" tactic more than I already did.


I could make a list of Free Agent signings with their number of years and dollars if you would like. Ben Gordon, Charlie Villanueva, Darko, and Travis Outlaw might have you thinking differently.
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Re: Cavs v. Celts - Game 1 Byron Scott era

Unread postby Orenthal » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:49 pm

TouchEmAllTime wrote:I wouldn't mind having to call Sam Amico a genius in a few months oh and the Halloween banner is excellent.


No need to call Amico that could just tell me, unless you hate me more then Amico...
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