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Interesting Liberatarian topic

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Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby jb » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:55 pm

Since OJ called me passive aggressive, let's see if we can have a non-retarded discussion on the implications of liberatarianism without Orenthal fucking up the topic with an anti-Obama rant. That better?

http://www.kctv5.com/news/25288578/detail.html

Interested to see what peeps think about the above story and government's role in a general sense, esp from a liberatarian perspective.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:20 pm

So I guess taxes don't pay for Firefighters in rural Tennessee.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:53 pm

And BTW I sometimes think a "Libertarian" goes in the same group as the Chupacabra, Sasquatch, and Loch Ness Monster. Often talked about but never really seen.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby danwismar » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:18 pm

I guess the true libertarian (and that ain't me) would ask his neighbors to form a bucket brigade from the well, and failing that, he'd watch his double-wide burn.

...not much good as governing philosophy, obviously. But the libertarian doesn't do governing philosophy.

Decentralized government at the local, especially rural level, gets revenue to provide services in a variety of ways. This community charges differently for fire protection. In my town, if I don't pay the water bill, they'll turn off the service. No difference.

If the community is not satisfied with the equity of their fire protection arrangements, they are empowered to do something about it.

If the guy doesn't like it...well, that's why they call it a trailer.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby jfiling » Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:15 pm

Most of the libertarians I read and talk with believe in a simple mantra: People should be willing to do what they want, as long as it causes no harm to others.

The fire department showed up, and took care of the fire once it threatened the paying neighbor's property. Sounds like a victory for libertarianism, although the stupid asshole who had his trailer burn down won't see it that way.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:57 pm

I don't pay the water bill, they'll turn off the service. No difference.


I'm pretty sure the city turning your water off doesn't come with the inherent danger to public saftey and property that letting a fire burn does. So in that respect, I think they're different. Sure he should've paid the fuckin $75, but I just feel they need to do their jobs and they can bill him later for the call, water used, or whatever they feel is needed, just put the damn fire out.

lol "Libertarian Montra". :lmfao: :thumb up:
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:16 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:And BTW I sometimes think a "Libertarian" goes in the same group as the Chupacabra, Sasquatch, and Loch Ness Monster. Often talked about but never really seen.



This is a solid point. They would appear to be much like 'Centrists' in regard to actually finding a real and pure one.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:24 pm

Under Obamacare ( :woot: ) he would have been covered.

South Fulton Mayor David Crocker told the newspaper that if the city allowed people to pay after the fact there would be no incentive to subscribe. As an analogy, he said an insurer won't pay for an auto accident if insurance lapses.


As an aside I think it boils down to what people think is fair, or better yet how they feel emotionally. Using simple logic what was done was the correct and right course of action. He did not pay for the insurance, he should assume if his place catches fire it will burn down. I just hope that $75 opportunity cost was worth it, because, and I am no trailer salesmen, but I am sure that trailer was werf more then $75.

Fuck him, pay next time. The son should also get a beatdown.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:12 pm

Using a simpleton's logic what was done was the correct and right course of action.


Fixxxed.

Only a retard would think letting a fire burn in spite of not getting $75 is the "correct and right course of action". Fires are dangerous, that's why we dial 911 . I don't want my house to catch fire because the guy next to me didn't pay.

Fuck him, pay next time


Can I submit this to being the offical montra of the Republican Party?
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Oct 12, 2010 6:26 pm

peeker643 wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:And BTW I sometimes think a "Libertarian" goes in the same group as the Chupacabra, Sasquatch, and Loch Ness Monster. Often talked about but never really seen.



This is a solid point. They would appear to be much like 'Centrists' in regard to actually finding a real and pure one.



I see what you did there.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:35 pm

^^You can do what you like. I'm sure if the guy was inside screaming for help while the place was burning they would get him out. Otherwise its his material possesions going up in smoke, and it is no different then not having any other type of insurance.

There is nothing simpleton or retarded about it. Pay $75 they put out fire, fail to pay, they let it burn... Why the fuck would anyone pay if they knew no matter what they would arrive and put it out?
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:14 pm

There is nothing simpleton or retarded about it.


Yes there is. That's why I said it.

It's common fucking sense. If you're a firefighter called to a fire you put the damn thing out, that's what they're trained and equipped to do. I don't care if his trailer is ashes, you still put the fire out for the saftey of others. You can bill the guy afterwards, and i'd bet it would be alot more than $75. They can still get their money.


Otherwise its his material possesions going up in smoke


Right..... Unless it spreads, then it's someone else's. Which is my main concern. a fire being hazard to more than the one guy.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:23 pm

And FTR...... this is sad. We're in the middle of big mid term elections with the TPers fighting Republicans, and control of congress in the balance........ and our political discussions are about trailer fires in rural Tennessee and the fucking burka. Which is not a knock on anyone here, it's more of an indictment of how awful our election options are. I just don't think many of us really give a shit which turds run congress or which dildo will run Ohio.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby jb » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:31 pm

Orenthal wrote: Pay $75 they put out fire, fail to pay, they let it burn... Why the fuck would anyone pay if they knew no matter what they would arrive and put it out?



I agree with that thar. But that's not any sort of reasonable question.

Now why are emergency services pay-to-play in the first place in a civilized society?


In metro areas, maybe we could have a tax delinquency scan to see if a woman being raped should be helped by police? But that would be fucked, right?

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


No Afghan or Iraqui citizen has to show a receipt before the USAF gives them emergency services. But JoBob Billy needs to fork over his $ 75 for emergency service or his coon dogs fried up like a rat in Thailand.
Last edited by jb on Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby jb » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:34 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:And FTR...... this is sad. We're in the middle of big mid term elections with the TPers fighting Republicans, and control of congress in the balance........ and our political discussions are about trailer fires in rural Tennessee and the fucking burka. Which is not a knock on anyone here, it's more of an indictment of how awful our election options are. I just don't think many of us really give a shit which turds run congress or which dildo will run Ohio.



WTF else political are we gonna talk about that you, I , OJ ; everyone, couldn't peg canned responses into ? No one has an open mind about shit anymore.

At least this content has the opportunity to induct into why we believe our philosophies.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby jb » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:44 pm

peeker643 wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:And BTW I sometimes think a "Libertarian" goes in the same group as the Chupacabra, Sasquatch, and Loch Ness Monster. Often talked about but never really seen.



This is a solid point. They would appear to be much like 'Centrists' in regard to actually finding a real and pure one.



That's bullshit Peeker.

This country is filled with hard core lefts and rights, and they are damn proud to be just that. They are fucking up the program beyond recognition, and I'm not talking about OJ or I throwing elbows. I'm center left, Rich is center right, both of us probably would agree 70 % of the time if we hashed out an issue. What's bullshit is when someone just shows up and pisses in the cherrios becasue that's where we are as a nation.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:49 pm

I don't know, man. Maybe I miss the heat of the older debates we've had round this joint. For better or worse, they were fun. And it's not a knock on you, JB. This might be a fun topic.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby jb » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:54 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:I don't know, man. Maybe I miss the heat of the older debates we've had round this joint. For better or worse, they were fun. And it's not a knock on you, JB. This might be a fun topic.



I get its not personal.

I just dunno what's..... left to hash out big pic? And we just end up being dooshwads to each other.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:33 pm

jb wrote:I get its not personal.

I just dunno what's..... left to hash out big pic? And we just end up being dooshwads to each other.


I qualify on the last part. I think it's because I honestly and truly believe none of it makes a difference.

Not one fucking thing I feel like I can do because this ship is way too big to be nimble enough to turn around and it's already headed too far out to sea without enough fuel to get back.

That's a helpless feeling when you're bringing kids into what will be worse shit than we're going through without a fucking miracle. And that's just what it's gonna take because people are too de-sensitized and too beaten down to make a difference themself.

I don't mean to piss in the Cheerios. I'm just surprised there's room around the bowl for me.

All that's left is to smile and to tell you I didn't need you to tell me where you and Rich were slotted on the dial.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:38 pm

jb wrote:WTF else political are we gonna talk about that you, I , OJ ; everyone, couldn't peg canned responses into ? No one has an open mind about shit anymore.

At least this content has the opportunity to induct into why we believe our philosophies.


This, and I don't think that will ever change.

Few more things in an effort to reduce quote boxes. Both the question of the fire spreading and why they charge $75 is addressed in the article. They did make sure it would not spread, and the guy falls outside of the South Falls(or whatever) city limits. So he doesn't pay taxes directly to the city, and they extend the service at a charge. They are under no obligation to even do that...

If the other guy, whose trailer they made sure to protect, paid, I am sure this guy knew exactly what not paying could result in...
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:47 pm

I guess I should just be glad I don't live in a trailer park in backwoods Tennessee.

Burkas are bad and so are house fires.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:50 pm

As to the why I think what I do, who knows? Nature/nuture blah blah. I am mos def right of center right on most non social issues. I try not to care about social issues. Do what you do, just don't flaunt it...

I see it as you pay for a service you get that service. Is fire protection a right? The woman getting raped is obviously having her rights violated, and being a citizen of under the protection of the Constitution, the police have no right to check if she pays any taxes.

Anyways Kasich/Portman/Kucinich are going to win in mostly blowouts, so what is there to talk abouth there.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:41 pm

Do what you do, just don't flaunt it...


Fuck off. I'm drunk and i'm "flaunting" it, you don't like it? Too fucking bad. Although i'm sure your dumb line only applies to gays, Mexicans, and Democrats. I bet if Portman and Kasich came strollin' in here posting and flaunting their Republicaness, you would probably get on your knees and smile like a donut.

I see it as you pay for a service you get that service. Is fire protection a right?


This is the United fucking States of America, put the fucking fire out. Christ this is such a stupid debate. "Hurrrrr you didn't pay me $75, so i'll watch your stuff burn despite the fact I have the ability to help, because i'm a giant douche durrrrr!"


Is fire protection is a right? I fucking guess not, but it is the right thing to do. I thought we're supposed to help each other out in situations like this.

Drink.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Oct 12, 2010 11:33 pm

Trailer on fire. Where the hell is a tornado when you need one?

I have a few questions. The trailer catches on fire, 911 is called, the engine rolls, they pull up to the fire and bust out their sticks and marshmallows. That's if I'm understanding the timeline correctly.

1. How much of that trailer could have possibly been left when the fire truck pulled up? Those things are made of 90$ cardboard, 1/8th inch fake wood paneling, and empty pizza boxes. What could have been left to save?

2. What the hell did they do with the giant propane tank on the end of the trailer between the window and the truck hitch? Did they just roll the dice that that thing wasn't going to blow?

3. What happened to the meth?
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby danwismar » Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:43 am

jb wrote:
Orenthal wrote: Pay $75 they put out fire, fail to pay, they let it burn... Why the fuck would anyone pay if they knew no matter what they would arrive and put it out?



I agree with that thar. But that's not any sort of reasonable question.

Now why are emergency services pay-to-play in the first place in a civilized society?


BTW, I think it's an entirely reasonable question. (And who said anything about a civilized society? I thought we were talking rural Tennessee here)

I know what you meant, JB....we should be better than this as a society. I get that, and no one disagrees, really...but reality keeps intervening.

and not to go off-topic, because it's really not off-topic...Orenthal's question is the exact same question that applies to healthcare...why would anyone who is uninsured now buy health insurance until he gets sick or hurt, if he knows the government won't allow an insurance company to turn him down, or charge him more, or consider pre-existing conditions? It's never an good idea to legislate without taking human nature into account

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard

We can all agree that in a perfect world, there would be a hook-and-ladder ready to roll a mile away when BillyBob's trailer started smoking....and there'd be a fire hydrant at the foot of his driveway too. And there would be a rich local industrialist who bought the Fire Dept a shiny new fire engine every ten years or so out of the goodness of his otherwise black capitalist heart.

My point was that these services are planned, organized and run at the local level, (and should be) and they reflect what the people are willing to put up with, given all the cost-benefit trade-offs, and assuming limited resources. There's a reason, for example, that the fee is $75 instead of $150 or $25. Somebody...god knows who...had to get agreement from the people or their elected representatives, that $150 was too much and that $25 wasn't enough, based on the costs and limited resources and the willingness of the people to pay for what they considered a fair price/value.

I don't think any kind of top-down solution...say, the State of Tenn. mandating 100% fire protection and buying fire engines, training and employing firemen, and building fire stations so that every trailer in the back woods is safe ...is a very realistic or practical or affordable solution.

How about a tax break on purchase of residential water tanks/pumps?

Not sure what the guys who argue that "they should just put the fire out" no matter what would suggest they pay the firemen and the fire station rent with.

Too many people riding in the public cart and not enough people pulling it. Fixing that unsustainable situation is the political challenge of the U.S. in the 21st century.

Trying to figure out more things the taxpayer should be providing in that perfect world (like free fire protection services for BillyBob's trailer..especially after the community already had a workable, and voluntary, system in place) seems to me to be thinking in the wrong direction by about 180 degrees.

Hope that doesn't make me appear to lack an open mind. And I know, I should have a dooshwad disclaimer on every post...but I figure by now you guys know that.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby danwismar » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:30 am

Taking this a little further....if you can stand it...

Can we agree that there are some locales there in backwoods Tennessee (or Anyplace, USA) that are so remote...say 50 miles outside of a town with a fire department instead of two miles outside one...that there is neither the availability nor the expectation that if a man's house catches on fire that someone will come out (either on the taxpayer dime or some private contractor) and put it out?

Is that guy being denied a basic civic right due all Americans?

Can we call ourselves a civilized society if we allow this situation to persist?

Of course we can. People make choices. Live closer if you want a Fire Dept.

We all "pay to play" for emergency services. We just have different ways of getting invoiced for it.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:28 am

It comes down to what 99.96875% of life in general comes down to, personal responsibility. Too often in these controversial situations people do not want to get to the root cause of the problem or controversy, nor in hindsight analysis do people want to acknowledge the simple solution that could have been implemented before hand to avoid such controversy.

In this case, the guy didn't pay the required $75 fee, end of story, the controversy stops there. Why he didn't pay is another question all together and frankly, who cares, I don't. It was $75, that is a Browns game, or $1.44/week piggy bank for the less fortunate who might work a minimum wage job etc... Should we just put fires out regardless of outside circumstances, in a perfect world of course, let me know when we live in that world. However the thing is he was not left in harms way, nor was the surrounding general public. The FD did their jobs and made sure no lives were in danger. Replaceable material items were lost, maybe that will be a lesson learned for the guy...and does he have a kid, and still didn't pay the $75 fee, JFC.

Not to pick on you CDT, b/c you seem like a guy who is responsible in your life, but what you're screaming above applies to exactly what I am saying and is in line with the typical and often sounded liberal mantra, which is claim to be about self responsibility until.....

Until there is an opportunity to scream for an injustice to somebody who did in fact drop the ball, and lack self accountability, just to put it back in the system's lap as if the system let the person down. It's as simple as A,B,C and as common as the sunrise in the East CDT. I'm not suggesting only the left pulls this stunt (b/c that is what it is) many from all political POVs do, but in general the left lives and dies with it and yet again it falls in line with JB's phrase for the year, intellectual honesty. So sick of the play on the sympathy angle when these stories come up. Should we never fire somebody b/c that will take money out of their pockets in which their family might not eat well that day? Should we never say no to a salesmen b/c well that guy needs money to eat too, and maybe money to pay his $75 fire protection fee....

No different than the incident in CTown 3-4 years ago in which LE had to show up at a Taco Bell to remove a hyper active disgruntled customer. 6'5 280+, took two LEO's to convince him to go outside, then when out he was not cooperating to the point they had to physically subdue him. Back up was even called. The guy died either that night or within a day or two. Claims were made it was the LEO's fault he died. Turns out he was on PCP and more. Point being it wasn't the LEO's fault he died, it was his for taking PCP and going to Taco Bell in the first place, dude caused all his own problems that day, yet society in general and most certainly his family has a hard time seeing it clearly.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby Ziner » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:09 am

You guys (except CDT ;-) ;) :wink: ) have covered most of my points so I don't have a ton to add except to say that I bet all the neighbors who "forgot" to pay like this guy have now settled up. In retrospect perhaps the law should be if you don't pay you will be charged all applicable charges to saving your home however, lets be honest, dude would probably forget to pay that charge as well.

I wish more taxes had to come out of your check book instead of your paycheck. It is easy for people to ignore what things cost when they just see their paycheck net of all taxes each month. Imagine if people have to cut a check at the end of each year. I'd venture to guess there would be a lot more bitching about taxes.

The only thing that bothers me about the story is that the pets were inside.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby Fire Marshall Bill » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:15 pm

Put me down on the side that says if you put on a fire fighters uniform and show up at a fire you put it out.

I also have a problem with said 'fire fighters' taking it upon themselves to decide that everything the family owned was worth only $75...

I'm not seeing why there's no 'legislation' for placing a lean on the property for the true costs of putting out the fire in lieu of watching it and I'm also thinking there's more to this story than we're privy to as regards maybe some personal vendettas
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:20 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
Do what you do, just don't flaunt it...


Fuck off. I'm drunk and i'm "flaunting" it, you don't like it? Too fucking bad. Although i'm sure your dumb line only applies to gays, Mexicans, and Democrats. I bet if Portman and Kasich came strollin' in here posting and flaunting their Republicaness, you would probably get on your knees and smile like a donut.

I see it as you pay for a service you get that service. Is fire protection a right?


This is the United fucking States of America, put the fucking fire out. Christ this is such a stupid debate. "Hurrrrr you didn't pay me $75, so i'll watch your stuff burn despite the fact I have the ability to help, because i'm a giant douche durrrrr!"


Is fire protection is a right? I fucking guess not, but it is the right thing to do. I thought we're supposed to help each other out in situations like this.

Drink.


You forgot blacks. Only thing more irrational then a Democrat is a drunk flaunting simpleton Democrat.

I’m not a fan of any flaunting gay/straight whatever, especially Kasich flaunting that horrible haircut and faux “energy”. Go fuck yourself.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby Ziner » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:28 pm

Shocking, guess he "forgot" to take a policy out that would cover all his belongings.

Maybe Obama could use our tax dollars to subsidize his homeowners insurance too.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346

Cranick, who is now living in a trailer on his property, says his insurance policy will help cover some of his lost home.

"Insurance is going to pay for what money I had on the policy, looks like. But like everything else, I didn't have enough."
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby danwismar » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:56 pm

Fire Marshall Bill wrote:Put me down on the side that says if you put on a fire fighters uniform and show up at a fire you put it out.


OK.

But we accept (at least we should) federalism and decentralized government as meaning that fire protection arrangements are going to be different in rural Tennessee than they are in say, Hudson, Ohio....(I mean, it's not like emergency services are "free" for all in Hudson...people pay property and income taxes through the nose for them)

...and not just that they are different, but that they must be, due to different tax revenue streams, different standards demanded by the locals, and different logistical challenges to actually putting water (or manpower) on a fire.

The 2010 realities require us to think more in terms of the public sector, whether in New York City or rural Tennessee, as having limited resources and alternative priorities for them.(to paraphrase Thomas Sowell from page 1 of his classic "Basic Economics")

This situation looks a bit different when looked at from this perspective....instead of lamenting that citizens outside the town were required to pay a flat amount per year for fire protection, consider instead that citizens were permitted the option to opt out of it, which may well have been a concession to those who opposed these new fees for something they cared little about. It was a way to spare poor rural citizens one more new government hand in their pockets, if they chose to opt out after considering costs and benefits.

I hope that those of you who advocate that the fire department answer all bells and put out all fires regardless also would demand that the $75 fee be mandatory for all with no opt out for anyone. To hold one position but not the other would seem to me to be unserious.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby jfiling » Wed Oct 13, 2010 3:22 pm

wiz1001 wrote:
Fire Marshall Bill wrote:Put me down on the side that says if you put on a fire fighters uniform and show up at a fire you put it out.


OK.

But we accept (at least we should) federalism and decentralized government as meaning that fire protection arrangements are going to be different in rural Tennessee than they are in say, Hudson, Ohio....(I mean, it's not like emergency services are "free" for all in Hudson...people pay property and income taxes through the nose for them)

...and not just that they are different, but that they must be, due to different tax revenue streams, different standards demanded by the locals, and different logistical challenges to actually putting water (or manpower) on a fire.

The 2010 realities require us to think more in terms of the public sector, whether in New York City or rural Tennessee, as having limited resources and alternative priorities for them.(to paraphrase Thomas Sowell from page 1 of his classic "Basic Economics")

This situation looks a bit different when looked at from this perspective....instead of lamenting that citizens outside the town were required to pay a flat amount per year for fire protection, consider instead that citizens were permitted the option to opt out of it, which may well have been a concession to those who opposed these new fees for something they cared little about. It was a way to spare poor rural citizens one more new government hand in their pockets, if they chose to opt out after considering costs and benefits.

I hope that those of you who advocate that the fire department answer all bells and put out all fires regardless also would demand that the $75 fee be mandatory for all with no opt out for anyone. To hold one position but not the other would seem to me to be unserious.

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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:17 am

Orenthal wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:
Do what you do, just don't flaunt it...


Fuck off. I'm drunk and i'm "flaunting" it, you don't like it? Too fucking bad. Although i'm sure your dumb line only applies to gays, Mexicans, and Democrats. I bet if Portman and Kasich came strollin' in here posting and flaunting their Republicaness, you would probably get on your knees and smile like a donut.

I see it as you pay for a service you get that service. Is fire protection a right?


This is the United fucking States of America, put the fucking fire out. Christ this is such a stupid debate. "Hurrrrr you didn't pay me $75, so i'll watch your stuff burn despite the fact I have the ability to help, because i'm a giant douche durrrrr!"


Is fire protection is a right? I fucking guess not, but it is the right thing to do. I thought we're supposed to help each other out in situations like this.

Drink.


You forgot blacks. Only thing more irrational then a Democrat is a drunk flaunting simpleton Democrat.

I’m not a fan of any flaunting gay/straight whatever, especially Kasich flaunting that horrible haircut and faux “energy”. Go fuck yourself.


Hah!

I always thought you were black.

At least you have a sense of humor.

The last line is funny.

If god forbid your place ever burns down you can come stay with me. But you have to do the dishes.

You're the best, OJ. The best.

Not to pick on you CDT, b/c you seem like a guy who is responsible in your life, but what you're screaming above applies to exactly what I am saying and is in line with the typical and often sounded liberal mantra, which is claim to be about self responsibility until.....


All i'm sayin is if you're a firefighter, just put the fire out and you can still get your money. Lesson learned, he lost some of his shit and he owes Podunk Fire however much they charge for the call, water, ect. Fuck it may have been an honest mistake him not paying the fee. I just don't see the sense in letting his place burn.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby jb » Thu Oct 14, 2010 10:44 am

Orenthal wrote:
jb wrote:WTF else political are we gonna talk about that you, I , OJ ; everyone, couldn't peg canned responses into ? No one has an open mind about shit anymore.

At least this content has the opportunity to induct into why we believe our philosophies.


This, and I don't think that will ever change.

Few more things in an effort to reduce quote boxes. Both the question of the fire spreading and why they charge $75 is addressed in the article. They did make sure it would not spread, and the guy falls outside of the South Falls(or whatever) city limits. So he doesn't pay taxes directly to the city, and they extend the service at a charge. They are under no obligation to even do that...

If the other guy, whose trailer they made sure to protect, paid, I am sure this guy knew exactly what not paying could result in...



OJ, sorry to post and run.

Fuckin' work. ;-)

I think this is interesting because it cuts to the core of the very purpose of government or even civilization. You come off as a laerned cat. Curious as to where your philosophies on government spring from and a few thoughts on the legitimate purpose of government, if there even are any.


Didn't want you to hink I pussed out. So long as the 6 shooters sit idol with the long-timers and shit isn't ignant, I love this stuff.

Looking forward to seeing some things your way if they make sense. You might be surprised. Or I might sstill think you are a wing nut. ;-).
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:40 am

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:All i'm sayin is if you're a firefighter, just put the fire out and you can still get your money. Lesson learned, he lost some of his shit and he owes Podunk Fire however much they charge for the call, water, ect. Fuck it may have been an honest mistake him not paying the fee. I just don't see the sense in letting his place burn.
I hear ya CDT, but again this ain't a Kumbaya world with gumdrop houses on lollipop lane, trust me cause I'd be one Kumbaya'n mother fucker.

A living breathing system puts things in motion, we then as individuals have choices, decision to make. You decide if you can pay the $75 or not, if you can you weigh the option of why you should or shouldn't. If you can't, b/c you're less fortunate' then you best get with someone to find out what your options are. If you can afford it and you don't pay it (regardless of the reason) you have some explaining to do to yourself later down the road possibly.

Now if you don't like the fact that things get put in motion as they do (and I am with you there on many occasions) then that is a completely different issue all together, IMHO.

As to why we can't save people's stuff, why should someone risk their life for someone else's stuff...let alone why does a person have so much stuff if they don't have $75 for fire protection?
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby FUDU » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:16 pm

Amplifying my answer a bit CDT. I just heard someone else talking about his, they mentioned rumor has it the guy has paid the fee for the past 5-6 years of longer, he simply forgot this year. Understandable, and probably common place. So as anything else in life each situation needs to be viewed on it's own merit. They definitely need to some up with a solution for said scenario, whether it be a procedure in which the fire get put out regardless and then a fine is instituted on top of the overdue fee, etc... Don't get me wrong I'm still advocating personal accountability here b/c let's face it in life, shit happens.

Problem then becomes kicking a man while he is down, dude just lost his house and now you want to hammer him with a $500 penalty?

What will come of this is a new tax, guaranteed, and with a new tax will come add ons and more money out of pocket for the people. Which in the end this whole scenario brings up the issue of how much money should we be putting out for the public sector work force, we're in it up to our knees as it is with them. Do we have too many workers on the tax payers dime? Do they make too much? Should their be public sector unions anymore?
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby danwismar » Thu Oct 14, 2010 2:11 pm

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/ ... ohn-berlau

Interesting article on this topic at NRO today. The author doesn't endorse fire protection arrangements such as the one in Obion County, Tennessee, instead suggesting other, better ways of addressing the issue, but he does show how historically the kind of unionized system that many are proposing be forced upon all of us through federal legislation, will cause more problems, slowdowns and deaths than anything of the kind done recently in Tennessee.

Firefighters unions have behaved appallingly in the past.. not only insisting that nothing be done about burning fires while they happen to be "on strike" against the taxpayers who pay them, but in many cases actively obstructing those who are attempting to fight fires in their stead...sabotaging equipment, slashing tires of fire engines...even actively starting fires themselves in several instances.

It's one thing for a community to accept unionization of their fire department, but quite another to have unionization, with all of its attendant problems, forced on us all from above by the ultimate special interest lobby.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby Erie Warrior » Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:16 pm

If we assume this cat was on the skids, and couldn't afford the $75, how is he going to find a place to live now? Did they cut their nose off to spite their face- is this guy going to end up living off the tax payers in a Section 8 place for free?

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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:46 pm

I haven't read this whole thread, but what came to mind in the first couple posts is all these people out in the hood who are yelling "Fuck the po-lice, fuck the po-lice" and "They don't do nothin' fo' me!"

And then something happens to them or their family and then when they need the police, they are all about them.

Or these people who refuse to talk to the police to help with an investigation, but when it's their problem, they're all furious when the police can't track down a suspect because nobody will cooperate.


Fuck this guy. Pay for your services like everybody else does. You're not exempt from the rules until you need them.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:24 pm

FUDU wrote:Amplifying my answer a bit CDT. I just heard someone else talking about his, they mentioned rumor has it the guy has paid the fee for the past 5-6 years of longer, he simply forgot this year. Understandable, and probably common place. So as anything else in life each situation needs to be viewed on it's own merit. They definitely need to some up with a solution for said scenario, whether it be a procedure in which the fire get put out regardless and then a fine is instituted on top of the overdue fee, etc... Don't get me wrong I'm still advocating personal accountability here b/c let's face it in life, shit happens.

Problem then becomes kicking a man while he is down, dude just lost his house and now you want to hammer him with a $500 penalty?

What will come of this is a new tax, guaranteed, and with a new tax will come add ons and more money out of pocket for the people. Which in the end this whole scenario brings up the issue of how much money should we be putting out for the public sector work force, we're in it up to our knees as it is with them. Do we have too many workers on the tax payers dime? Do they make too much? Should their be public sector unions anymore?



To the bolded part; No, i'm just saying if money is the Holy Crux of the matter, there are other ways to get it. And lets not pretend for one second that you give a shit about "kicking him when he's down", if you're ok with watching his shit burn for less than a hundred bucks, you have no problem kicking him whiles he's down.

You see, me being a firm believer in the ethics taught to me by my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, makes it impossible for me to reconcile not doing anything to help your fellow man in an emrgency. These are core values that go beyond taxes and fees.


skatingtripods wrote:I haven't read this whole thread, but what came to mind in the first couple posts is all these people out in the hood who are yelling "Fuck the po-lice, fuck the po-lice" and "They don't do nothin' fo' me!"

And then something happens to them or their family and then when they need the police, they are all about them.

Or these people who refuse to talk to the police to help with an investigation, but when it's their problem, they're all furious when the police can't track down a suspect because nobody will cooperate.


Fuck this guy. Pay for your services like everybody else does. You're not exempt from the rules until you need them.


Since you're obviously talking about me and you simply lack the balls to call me out by name, i've never once said "fuck the police", I cooperate if they need me to help. So stick this bullshit up your ass. Jfiling is the fuck the police guy.

And for the last line: Have you been paying for the services you may need? When is that last time the city you reside in took money out of your paycheck to fund fire and police services?
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby Ziner » Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:28 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Since you're obviously talking about me and you simply lack the balls to call me out by name, i've never once said "fuck the police", I cooperate if they need me to help. So stick this bullshit up your ass. Jfiling is the fuck the police guy.


Never realized Galloway was in the hood.

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:And for the last line: Have you been paying for the services you may need? When is that last time the city you reside in took money out of your paycheck to fund fire and police services?


Last Friday, what exactly do city income taxes go towards then? If this guy lived in an area where his city/township/county or whatever didnt withhold income tax for this service should he just get a free pass? I dont understand.

Are you drunk again? You seem angry.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:35 pm

No no not angry. If it comes off that way it's really unintentional.

And the second quote box has nothing to do with you, man.

Never realized Galloway was in the hood.


It's small hickish place, but you know what we have here? Friggin Volunteer Firefighters. Tennessse is the "Volunteer State", no?
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:36 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:Since you're obviously talking about me and you simply lack the balls to call me out by name, i've never once said "fuck the police", I cooperate if they need me to help. So stick this bullshit up your ass. Jfiling is the fuck the police guy.


Not talking about you at all. That's what I'm likening the scenario to. Is it your time of the month? Jesus christ, dude.

This is no different, in my opinion. Piss and moan about civil services until you need them. There are plenty of people paying the tax who will never need the service. But they're doing it because it makes sense, God forbid something ever happen.


And for the last line: Have you been paying for the services you may need? When is that last time the city you reside in took money out of your paycheck to fund fire and police services?


My city's about to start adding a tax to the water bill to pick up garbage. Is it bullshit? Absolutely. Is there an alternative? Absolutely not. Can't sit around with garbage piling up and can't take it to the dumpster in the middle of the night for fear of illegal dumping or some other citation.

So, if there's a chance of my house going up in flames, I'm paying whatever is necessary to get the help I need in the event that I need it.

I'd rather my taxes go towards the people who protect me rather than the pockets of the corrupt assholes who screw everyone over. Pretty clear that taxes around here don't go to fixing roads or improving schools.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:45 pm

That ain't what I asked, you dodged it.

I know everytime I look at my paystub it has this line "OH Columbus Withholding", and then the amount in which I have contributed to my city YTD, obviously.

And my bad for misundertanding your fuck the police comments. Sorry.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:53 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:That ain't what I asked, you dodged it.


Dodged it because it's irrelevant. I don't live where this guy does. But if I did, I'd take care of my obligation to pay the tax for fire services.

The point is, this guy has nobody to blame but himself. $75 a year v. all his possessions and his home. Forgive me for being insensitive.

He lived outside the city limits but was still offered protection. Offered fire protection for $6.25 a month. Paid more than that every week for a case of Natural Light.

Again, forgive me for being insensitive.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby jfiling » Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:58 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:That ain't what I asked, you dodged it.


Dodged it because it's irrelevant. I don't live where this guy does. But if I did, I'd take care of my obligation to pay the tax for fire services.

The point is, this guy has nobody to blame but himself. $75 a year v. all his possessions and his home. Forgive me for being insensitive.

He lived outside the city limits but was still offered protection. Offered fire protection for $6.25 a month. Paid more than that every week for a case of Natural Light.

Again, forgive me for being insensitive.

Yep, this is correct.

CDT, you're pretty cavalier when it comes to firefighters fighting a fire they are not contracted to fight, just because they should (in your opinion).

Let's say they go in there, defying their charter, and fight this fire. What happens if one of them gets injured? I guess then you'd be bitching about the inhumane Worker's Compensation bureau denying their claims because they had a moral imperative to go in and fight that fire, even though they had no legal protections when they went in there.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby motherscratcher » Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:05 pm

jfiling wrote:
skatingtripods wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:That ain't what I asked, you dodged it.


Dodged it because it's irrelevant. I don't live where this guy does. But if I did, I'd take care of my obligation to pay the tax for fire services.

The point is, this guy has nobody to blame but himself. $75 a year v. all his possessions and his home. Forgive me for being insensitive.

He lived outside the city limits but was still offered protection. Offered fire protection for $6.25 a month. Paid more than that every week for a case of Natural Light.

Again, forgive me for being insensitive.

Yep, this is correct.

CDT, you're pretty cavalier when it comes to firefighters fighting a fire they are not contracted to fight, just because they should (in your opinion).

Let's say they go in there, defying their charter, and fight this fire. What happens if one of them gets injured? I guess then you'd be bitching about the inhumane Worker's Compensation bureau denying their claims because they had a moral imperative to go in and fight that fire, even though they had no legal protections when they went in there.


I don't think anyone is asking them to run into the burning trailer to save the cat. But it wouldn't have been a lot to ask for them to turn on the damn hose.

And, under what pretense are you assuming that BWC would deny the claim of a fire fighter who was injured while in uniform fighting a fire?
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:12 pm

skatingtripods wrote:
Cerebral_DownTime wrote:That ain't what I asked, you dodged it.


Dodged it because it's irrelevant. I don't live where this guy does. But if I did, I'd take care of my obligation to pay the tax for fire services.

The point is, this guy has nobody to blame but himself. $75 a year v. all his possessions and his home. Forgive me for being insensitive.

He lived outside the city limits but was still offered protection. Offered fire protection for $6.25 a month. Paid more than that every week for a case of Natural Light.

Again, forgive me for being insensitive.



I don't think you're "insensitive" at all. All I ask is that in an emergency, help the guy out. And I do apologize for jumping on you like that. I'm trying to cut back on cigarettes again, and it's not going well.
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Re: Interesting Liberatarian topic

Unread postby skatingtripods » Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:13 pm

Motherscratcher wrote:I don't think anyone is asking them to run into the burning trailer to save the cat. But it wouldn't have been a lot to ask for them to turn on the damn hose.


Sets a precedent to the other people paying for the service. It says that they don't need to pay in order to receive assistance.

It's hypothetical, but if people in this area stop paying for the service, then they may fall in to a "dead zone", so to speak, and not be extended fire fighter services from any nearby community. That could be very detrimental everybody, especially the people who contributed the way they were supposed to.

Like most everything else, this'll be interpreted one of two ways. The way I look at it and the way you and CDT look at it. I say the guy should have paid his $6.25 a month and took care of it. You guys say "It's $75 a year, is that really that important to let a man's house burn?"

I'm for the proactive.
A God Damn dead man would understand that if a minor league bus in any city took a real sharp right turn, a Zack McCalister would likely fall out. - Lead Pipe
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