Thoughts on Amico's Latest??

[peeker643]

He's got the Cavs winning 45-50 games this season.

I personally think he dove into the shallow end of the pool one time too many this summer.

I can't see it happening that way. I got half that win total. Clearly I'd prefer Sam be right.

Thoughts on the number of wins? Here's the link for those who are looking for Sam's rationale: http://bit.ly/bi9Mw4

[TouchEmAllTime]

No way they are winning 50. It took three seasons with Lebron to win 50. I think 30 is reasonable, but could also be a stretch.

[CP]

This team is going to be no fun to watch. They should win 30-ish games just because of the number of gutted teams they will play. They'll get blown out by anyone decent, but will beat up on the teams who have been gutting their roster.

[GodHatesClevelandSport]

He better be nowhere close to correct, or I'll be mowing my buddy's lawn. I've got 30 wins and under. The Cavs own coach said they are a 30-win team without LeBron.

When Mo Williams and Antwan Jamison were the best or second-best players on their teams, their teams were losers. In Jamison's case, big losers. Golden State consistently won in the low 20s in Jamison's prime. He's only been on one team that won 50 games (Dallas). That team got rid of him after one year.

They aren't the best players, you say? It's Varejao or Hickson? Well, Varejao has career averages of 7 pts and 7 rebounds per game, and Hickson's still a work in progress. The team will be even worse than you think if either of them is the best player. The rest of them wouldn't even start for a good team (except for Anthony Parker).

Sam contradicts himself with his Byron Scott points. Yes, Scott's teams became good -- after they were really, really bad. And they didn't become good with the players that were on the team when Scott started. The Cavs do NOT have more to work with than NJ did when Scott started. Those Nets had Marbury, Kenyon Martin, and Keith Van Horn -- and a young Stephen Jackson. Martin and Van Horn were the Nets' leading scorers the following year when they won 52 games, after aquiring Jason Kidd and drafting Jason Richardson. The Hornets had Baron Davis in Scott's first season. He's better than anyone on the Cavs. The team got good the next year when they drafted Chris Paul.

So seems like Scott's teams become good when they add a top-flight point guard. Looks like that's the engine for Scott's offense. There's not a single person within 100 miles of Cleveland that fits that role for the Cavs. No point guard = no hope for Byron Scott's teams.

This part amuses me: "They also have enough veterans who know what it takes to win." Hell yea, they know what it takes to win -- LeBron.

Cavs will stink. I've bet mowing my buddy's lawn on it.

[GodHatesClevelandSport]

P.S. Cavs won ~ 35% of their games before LeBron arrived. The Bulls have won 35% of the games in the non-Jordan eras. That should tell you something right there.

35% of 82 is 28.7, so I've got them at 29 wins.

[papacass]

Sam is closer to being right than wrong. If they keep this squad intact all year, they will be a respectable offensive club with the scoring talents of Mo and Twan, and the (hopefully) continued development of J.J. Ramon Sessions could also bounce back to 11/6 territory as a starting PG or sixth man.

They'll play D like absolute crap. We're talking Raptors and Wizards bad. But it's not outlandish to think that they'll be a top 10 offensive team with Byron Scott preaching uptempo ball.

This is a .500 team, with potential to be a 45-win squad. And I don't like it one bit. As constructed, this team has 7-10 seed purgatory written all over it.

I've gone back and forth on this for a while, but they need to blow this thing up and take a few years to draft high. Nobody in the East is going to make any headway until Boston gets too old to compete and we see whether the grand experiment in Miami is a success or bust.

I'd like to say there is a better option, but given the state of the roster and the black knights guarding the top of the conference, turning the Finals into an unattainable goal for at least the short-to-medium term, several years of intentional suckage might be the most prudent plan of attack.

[tired]

I agree papa. Problem is ya still got to deal with them damn ping pong balls.

[GodHatesClevelandSport]

Optimists can take solace in John Hollinger and Chris Broussard's just-posted rankings of the teams for the upcoming season. Yesterday they revealed 25-30 on ESPN.com, and the Cavs weren't in that bunch. Four other Eastern Conference teams are in there, and two are in the Cavs' division.

[papacass]

The trouble is, everyone is so down on the Cavs right now with LBJ leaving, they look at the roster and see an assload of nothing. We're conditioned to think that Mo and Twan are crap players.

They're not. They're good players. Good enough to turn a crappy team into a mediocre team if the coach opens the throttle and creates lots of shots.

In other words, good enough to prevent the Cavs from undertaking the rebuild they'll so desperately need.

I'm a little concerned that Dan Gilbert's emotion is going to get the better of him here, and he's going to want to keep fighting with his dulled sword, like the Cavs are the 300 Spartans taking on the Persians at Thermopylae. The more level-headed approach is to let it go, let this era die a dignified death, and get busy on building the team's next incarnation.

It's great that Gilbert is so competitive. He wants to win very badly. But, it being Cleveland and all, I could see a scenario where Gilbert's competitive streak becomes very destructive.

[GodHatesClevelandSport]

Of course, Hollinger wrote this in his ranking of team's for the next three seasons:

We hate to pour salt on the wound, but LeBron's "Decision" destroyed his hometown franchise now and for the foreseeable future. Cavaliers fans continue to insist that it's the way LeBron ditched them that has caused so much anger, but over time, the real pain will be watching this Cavs team without him.

[pup]

The Indians will win a higher percentage of games than the Cavs.

50 wins? Did I fall asleep and miss the Cavs improving at any single position over the off season to help maintain losing the single most talented in the league?

We are going to score more? Sweet. When Mo and Twan both add 5 points per game more then we can be happy to know we have replaced Delonte West. Now, if we can only replace the guy directly responsible for what, 50% of our baskets over the last 5 years, we can consider not becoming grotesquely embarrassing as a basketball team.

This group has been LBJ and the bums for years. Now, they are just bums. Hard to win giving up 130 a night.

[TouchEmAllTime]

And 30 wins is assuming Antawn's 34 year old body doesn't break down at some point and Mo doesn't wet the bed in the spotlight of being arguably the #1 guy, or at least 1b.

[Cease]

I like Amico's enthusiasm, but just don't see it happening.

Unfortunately, we in for full-frontal exposure of the system we could have had if we pulled the plug on Mike Brown 1-3 years ago. Granted, a slightly more mature LBJ would have had to buy in to up-tempo ball movement. Plus, hindsight on the former NBA Coach of the Year is 20/20. But, dang it, we should have upgraded coaches. Again, 20/20 now.

LeBron's chemistry with guys like Andy and Mo had on-court value. This team's going to have to reestablish rhythm and feel with each other- which takes time. The case behind blowing it up requires that you allow a talented young core to establish that chemistry. Finger on the RESET button, how long do we wait?

[rebelwithoutaclue]

I see 35-40 wins with an outside shot at making the playoffs as the 8th seed with a sub-.500 record.

[papacass]

LeBron's chemistry with guys like Andy and Mo had on-court value.

LeBron didn't have chemistry with Mo. The closest thing they ever had to chemistry was taking turns freelancing. Mostly, LBJ rendered Mo a spot-up jump shooter. He hurt Mo's traditional game, which is penetrating and wreaking havoc inside, and tossing up runners and floaters in the lane.

Mo was supposed to be some kind of reasonable facsimile of Mark Price, with his quick legs darting around the floor and reliable jumper. Instead, he just chucked three-balls for long stretches of games.

Mo's effectiveness is probably going to increase with LBJ out of the picture. It's more of a side effect than a benefit.

[peeker643]

My hope is it's 35-45 win talent that is jettisoned before the trade deadline. Hoping Mo, Twan and AV all stay healthy and are productive. Then I want to see them dealt and this reconstruction begun in earnest.

After 'The Letter' and the frenzy of July I think the Cavs still do have some talented parts but I'm less certain that Comic Sans and the father from Modern Family know what to do now. Let's make sure there are fewer of them come March.

This is Chris Grant, right?

[StewieG]

This team reminds me a bit of the Andre Miller years. Some talent...enough to keep you in the purgatory that is the late lottery/last playoff seeds. Several holes, some gaping. 35-40 wins. Outside shot at a first round exit.

[GodHatesClevelandSport]

Andre Miller's teams never won more than 32 games. Then they traded him in order to tank for LeBron.

[StewieG]

I mean more in the purgatory sense. This team, for all its flaws, has more talent than those teams ever did.

[waborat]

He's got the Cavs winning 45-50 games this season.

Not even if they include LV & the preseason...

Not even if they traded Mo for Rondo...

Not even if the league spots em ten...

Not even if they eat green eggs & ham...

Sam I Am

[Orenthal]

Only if we would have resigned Shaq!

[British_Pharaoh]

No way they are winning 50. It took three seasons with Lebron to win 50. I think 30 is reasonable, but could also be a stretch.

Yeah it took LeBron 3 seasons but he had fools like McInnis, Lucious Harris and Jiri Welsch.

AJ and MoWill and much better.

I really don't think losing ONE player however great he is will make us 33 wins worse off like some people here believe.

Without LeBron it takes restrictions off of players like Jamison and Mo, they have a bit more freedom to command the game and play to their strengths without having to be docile and subservient to ONE man.

I expect great seasons from both, even without the benefit of being wide open while James was drawing double and triple teams

[pup]

Nothing better than LeBron "restricted" the ability of all these other superstars around these parts argument.

Da Nile.

More than a river in Egypt.

[Madre Hill, Superstar]

Nothing better than LeBron "restricted" the ability of all these other superstars around these parts argument.

I don't think anyone is calling Mo 'n Antawn 'superstars' but, uh, if you don't think they were reined in by LeISO I'm not sure what team you were watching the past couple seasons.

As for Sam, I don't think he's smoking anything too heavily. I can see anything from 35 to 50 wins with this club.

[papacass]

Nothing better than LeBron "restricted" the ability of all these other superstars around these parts argument.

I don't think anyone is calling Mo 'n Antawn 'superstars' but, uh, if you don't think they were reined in by LeISO I'm not sure what team you were watching the past couple seasons.

As for Sam, I don't think he's smoking anything too heavily. I can see anything from 35 to 50 wins with this club.

Truthfulness. No doubt losing LBJ hurts this team in a big way, but there is no way that you can subtract LBJ from this team and automatically assume that all you have left is the dead weight from the Celtics series this spring.

Teams are not comprised of static puzzle pieces. If Mo and Twan are the focal point of the offense, they'll each get a higher shot volume and many more plays called for them. Ergo, their impact on the game is likely to increase.

So in that sense (and factoring in LeIso), yes, LBJ did put a cap on what Mo and Twan could do.

Again, we undervalue the living crap out of what is left behind, because we're so down on the Cavs right now. Some of us literally think Mo and Twan are crappy NBA players, because we see the Cavs as a black hole right now.

[diminishingskills]

Nothing better than LeBron "restricted" the ability of all these other superstars around these parts argument.

Da Nile.

More than a river in Egypt.

Wondering out loud here: which Cavs had their games improve by playing next to Bron? Maybe Varejao (though we've never really seen him without Bron; and I'd argue that his very-good-for-a-big-guy hands helped Bron just as much as vice-versa). But Mo? Tawn? Shaq? AP? Moon? IHS? Weed Marshall? Amon? Z? Redz? Wally Alphabet?

Asking seriously, not being a Richard.

[FUDU]

We'd need to come to an agreement on what improved means.

Improved as in all around better basketball players b/c they played with LeBron, no. Improved in the sense that they contributed more/better b/c of LeBron (and his ability to make things easier for them), yeah sure.

All in hindsight mind you, I think we may have felt LeBron was keeping some guys down but for the most part many if not most of us were blinded by the potential and ultimate possibilities a roster with LeBron brought us.

[leadpipe]

I've made this comment before, but ILO by the end of his career, LBJ will have created more wide open looks than anyone who has ever plyed this game.

I understand that ain't the end all be all, and there are other things, such as his game not meshing with Mo's etc.

But if my first sentence in anywhere close to being true, and I assure you that it's close at a minimum, than he's helped many a player on that floor.

Just cause Damon and Donyell couldn't hit enough of em', and just because Drew couldn't stop getting hit in the face....well, I guess that's to the overall point.

He made Andy. He got Z open looks. He got Antwan open looks and on and on and on.

And this post will lead to the obligatory, Lebron dribbling out on top, which of course is an issue (although, there were plenty of times where that was the best option) but shit, the guy commanded coverage and was a great passer. With that combination your going to make players better by default.

If he was handcuffin' them, I'm sure we'll see several blossom this season.

At the end of the day I'd recommend forgetting about the prick. Because he ain't gonna give a shit if you wear a Delonte/Gloria shirt to the game, he ain't gonna lose many games and he certainly isn't going to cease becoming one of the all-time greats.

The guy that was nailing Megan Fox, and talked about how hot she was, than after she kicks him to the curb he's likening her to Roseanne Barr, even though the rest of the world knows that ain't true.

A little pride. Forget her.

And, by the way, the Vegas line is around 32 for the Cavs, which is FAR more accurate than Amico's prediction.

[swerb]

I got em as about a 30 win team. Over/under on games played for Antawn the next two years I got at about 90. Even if he stays healthy, he's seen his better days, has creaky knees, and plays absolutely no D. I don't know who they got that is gonna stop anyone on D besides Andy. Mo is a matador, and one of the most overrated players in the league. And we're talking about him as maybe our best player.

Lead's last post is dead nuts on the money. Sadly, there's little talent on this team outside of JJ and Andy, and LeBron made a lot of these players.

This is going to be a bad basketball team. End of story. 50 wins is absolute lunacy.

[Madre Hill, Superstar]

I've made this comment before, but ILO by the end of his career, LBJ will have created more wide open looks than anyone who has ever plyed this game.

Fuck yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. We've seen the triple-dubs and the team records in wins. What I also saw was a kid with immense talent and unheard of court vision who withdrew into a turtle shell the instant the defense got tough. A kid who was never challenged, whose been proclaimed The One since he was still in the lunch line at SVSM, who never got kicked to the JV team by Charlie Murphy, who proclaims 'nobody can judge me but God', who decided that when the going got tough, the tough got going to Miami because maybe he thinks he can recreate his 2008 vacation to Beijing.

He's got immense talent and hops like no-one else, I just don't think there's a high enough level of, for lack of a better term, NBA-level skill there. The kind of skill that would've actually involved and improved Mo and Antawn and, fuck, maybe even IHS. He's been skimming off of everything he learned in AAU and taking the easy route whenever he could, and his ego won't let anyone else tell him otherwise.

[leadpipe]

I've made this comment before, but ILO by the end of his career, LBJ will have created more wide open looks than anyone who has ever plyed this game.

Fuck yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. We've seen the triple-dubs and the team records in wins. What I also saw was a kid with immense talent and unheard of court vision who withdrew into a turtle shell the instant the defense got tough. A kid who was never challenged, whose been proclaimed The One since he was still in the lunch line at SVSM, who never got kicked to the JV team by Charlie Murphy, who proclaims 'nobody can judge me but God', who decided that when the going got tough, the tough got going to Miami because maybe he thinks he can recreate his 2008 vacation to Beijing.

He's got immense talent and hops like no-one else, I just don't think there's a high enough level of, for lack of a better term, NBA-level skill there. The kind of skill that would've actually involved and improved Mo and Antawn and, fuck, maybe even IHS. He's been skimming off of everything he learned in AAU and taking the easy route whenever he could, and his ego won't let anyone else tell him otherwise.

Just responding to the point of LBJ not making anyone better.

How in the world he didn't make life easier for Antwan Jamison I'm not sure.

In any event, as far as "NBA skill" goes, the cat was back to back MVP of the league, and earned em' both.

He was fantastic in the playoffs two years ago, and carried them to a finals before that. Not saying perfect, not saying zero faults, but Christ, to assume all of the sudden the guy - unarguably one of the top three in the league and on a fast track to the Hall - assuming he's some sort of dark cloud, who you'll be unable to win with is preposterous. Or, to be more succinct, sour grapes.

It is entirely possible to be a first rate asshole and a great player. There's been one in LA for years.

As per usual, I'll let this play out. Those of you that think Dan Gilbert will be hoisting some sort of trophy before LBJ, well, we should see it soon enough.

[CharacterIV]

I'm a believer that this could still be a decent basketball team, I have a lot of faith in Byron Scott to tap into something offensively that Brown never could, and if they can keep enough of MB's old D lectures and schemes in their heads, then maybe they can catch lightning in a bottle.

50 wins is possible for the 2010-11 Cavs, but only in the sense that in an infinite universe, anything is possible, including the Q being spontaneously covered in a 3-foot thick layer of banana cream and light, fluffy meringue.

Give 'em until the deadline to have Coach Byron catch lightning in a bottle, but if it looks like they're headed for 8-10 seed purgatory, which must be avoided at all costs, burn the thing down. Ship off Andy, Mo, Antawn (if anyone's desperate enough to bite), basically sell anything not nailed down or named JJ Hickson while the iron is hot, and go into lottery mode. You don't necessarily need to be #1 to find a franchise player in a good draft, but you do need to be top 5. Maybe 7 or 8 in a real thick year or if the guy in question is real raw.

Personally, I'd love to see them send Mo, Andy, Antawn and any of our useful parts to Boston, Orlando and LA, just out of spite.

[waborat]

Glad to see some peeps already drinkin Gilby's Crus-Ade...

This team going forward feels like last March's Tribe squad, no hope...

They'll lose, they'll get hurt, they'll get traded, they'll lose some Mo'...

[pup]

To be perfectly fair, my assessment has nothing to do with the dark cloud of recent events. I am sure if you think back, I was telling you the rest of this roster was garbage long before LBJ left town.

Will Mo and Twan score more points this year without LBJ? They should, simply because of volume. Will that allow them to win more than 30 games? No flipping way. In my opinion at least.

[jb]

Clearly, Lee's head exploded reading Amico's take an dthis is why he hasn't swatted this one to Uranis.

[papacass]

I got em as about a 30 win team. Over/under on games played for Antawn the next two years I got at about 90. Even if he stays healthy, he's seen his better days, has creaky knees, and plays absolutely no D. I don't know who they got that is gonna stop anyone on D besides Andy. Mo is a matador, and one of the most overrated players in the league. And we're talking about him as maybe our best player.

Lead's last post is dead nuts on the money. Sadly, there's little talent on this team outside of JJ and Andy, and LeBron made a lot of these players.

This is going to be a bad basketball team. End of story. 50 wins is absolute lunacy.

I don't disagree that this is going to be a bad defensive team. But, other than age, where are you getting evidence that Jamo is about to crap out? He did only play 66 games last year, but that was due to his shoulder injury. Other than that, his lowest GP total since 2000 was 70 in 2006-07.

He averaged 18.7 PPG last year, which was his lowest total in six years, but that was because he averaged just 15.8 PPG after the trade, which was because he averaged four fewer shots per game in Cleveland than he did in Washington.

Jamo might turn into an old fogey before our very eyes, but his stats don't seem to bear that out. And he hasn't had any recurring injuries or deteriorating joints that have caused him to miss significant time, so it would appear that he can squeeze at least a couple more 20/8 seasons out of his body.

Mo, yes, he is a crappy defender. Yes, his name is mud around here because he had yet another lousy playoff run. But even if he is overrated, the numbers show that the guy scores. So, overrated as an all-around player? Probably. But he is a good scorer. Good, not great.

So, I'm just not seeing the "dead weight outside of AV and JJ" argument. This team is flat-out middle of the pack. They're going to need to get rid of Mo and Twan to get to where they need to go, which is the top of the draft lottery.

Personally, I don't even see why we're arguing about how many games this team is going to win. Whether they win 32 or 41 or 45, the fact is, they're going to be a non-contender that isn't bad enough to get the ping-pong balls they need to draft another possible franchise cornerstone. It's the 1994-2001 Cavs all over again.

[FUDU]

This could go a couple of ways IMO, a 7th or 8th seed or under 30 wins easy. I lean toward under 30 wins simply b/c of one thing, who on this team is going to consistently get to the hole and finish, strong? Even if Mo finds more of a game w/LBJ gone Mo isn't the kind of player that will get to the hole at will and/or attract such attention that everyone else gets a free pass at the hoop.

We simply do not have a player who is great at any one thing, nor one that is Mr. Clutch.

This could be ugly.

[leadpipe]

By the way, I like JJ, but we're jumping ahead in anointing him as a good NBA player.

He was a guy at least season's midway point that was scared to shoot the ball.

And, what had a big hand in bringing him out of it was Lebron getting the guy dunk after dunk. He's going to have to earn a lot more shots this year.

[jb]

And, what had a big hand in bringing him out of it was Lebron getting the guy dunk after dunk. He's going to have to earn a lot more shots this year.

Piper, Bron didn't make anyone's game better. Remember, he was holding Mo back.

[papacass]

And, what had a big hand in bringing him out of it was Lebron getting the guy dunk after dunk. He's going to have to earn a lot more shots this year.

Piper, Bron didn't make anyone's game better. Remember, he was holding Mo back.

Mo is red delicious to J.J.'s fresh squeezed. Mo is a shot creator. His ability to create shots was hindered by LeIso. J.J. is a finisher. Put him in a position where all he had to do was catch the ball while cutting to the basket, and he's golden.

Bron aided the games of J.J. and Andy. But anyone who needed to create shots off the dribble was going to, sooner or later, stand on Bron's toes.

[peeker643]

But anyone who needed to create shots off the dribble was going to, sooner or later, stand on Bron's toes.

Think Miami thought of that? They may be doomed if one creator is all you can put out there.

[Orenthal]

Just responding to the point of LBJ not making anyone better.

How in the world he didn't make life easier for Antwan Jamison I'm not sure.

Just gonna respond in the opposite manner.

Sure he made it easier for people to get spot up jumpers. However at least in terms of Mo and 'Twan their games were much more then spot up jump-shooters. His domination of the ball created a stagnant offense with almost zero movement. This made his drives easy to defend for the elite teams, and made rotations off his passes easier.

Sure guys would get open looks and easy dunks, but against any of the good defensive teams, or ones that played zone, we were pretty easy to contain.

[leadpipe]

Just responding to the point of LBJ not making anyone better.

How in the world he didn't make life easier for Antwan Jamison I'm not sure.

Just gonna respond in the opposite manner.

Sure he made it easier for people to get spot up jumpers. However at least in terms of Mo and 'Twan their games were much more then spot up jump-shooters. His domination of the ball created a stagnant offense with almost zero movement. This made his drives easy to defend for the elite teams, and made rotations off his passes easier.

Sure guys would get open looks and easy dunks, but against any of the good defensive teams, or ones that played zone, we were pretty easy to contain.

This is assuming that if you had a playmaking point guard and some guys that could create their own shots, Lebron would still do exactly as he did here, correct? Because I'm not ready to make that assumption just yet.

Somehow, he went from a great passer mid-season to a selfish passer headed to Miami.

You'll see more movement off the ball this year and you'll still see the guy use about the best damned court vision in the league.

We do understand that Lebron at his most selfish-ball hogging was never nearly as selfish and ball hogging as a guy in LA, correct?

Difference is one guy could go 6-24 in game 7 and have his competent teammates bail him out. And the other lost game 1 thru 7, hell, 1 thru 82, just about every time he wasn't dead nuts.

All I'm askin' is we seperate the hate. I hate Kobe, as a player and a rapist, but the effin' guy can play. Lebron is in his class, with a chance to be better, whether we like him or not.

And his skills are not championship deterent or eroding, no matter how much we wish it so.

[Madre Hill, Superstar]

Sure he made it easier for people to get spot up jumpers. However at least in terms of Mo and 'Twan their games were much more then spot up jump-shooters. His domination of the ball created a stagnant offense with almost zero movement. This made his drives easy to defend for the elite teams, and made rotations off his passes easier.

Sure guys would get open looks and easy dunks, but against any of the good defensive teams, or ones that played zone, we were pretty easy to contain.

Thus was born LeISO.

[leadpipe]

Sure he made it easier for people to get spot up jumpers. However at least in terms of Mo and 'Twan their games were much more then spot up jump-shooters. His domination of the ball created a stagnant offense with almost zero movement. This made his drives easy to defend for the elite teams, and made rotations off his passes easier.

Sure guys would get open looks and easy dunks, but against any of the good defensive teams, or ones that played zone, we were pretty easy to contain.

Thus was born LeISO.

Yea, that's all he was here, LeISO.

Christ.

[FUDU]

LeBron is the most dangerous player in the league, predicated mostly on his power and quickness for a man his size. His physical dominance is nearly unprecedented (maybe Wilt was comparable). LeBron however is also just a good enough shooter on most areas of the floor that it magnifies his entire game and makes it that much more difficult for opponents to stop him. Sure he can be a streaky shooter but streaky works both ways, good and bad. What LeBron can do that most other streaky shooters cannot is fall back on the best part of his game, the physical angle of his game.

IMO what gets confused in the LeBron debate is his court vision and the label of unselfish. He has great court vision, outstanding, however it doesn't mean he isn't being selfish when he dominates the ball and stagnates the offense. He's not being selfish in a "I want my numbers" kind of way, he is being selfish in that he is untrustworthy that his teammates can help carry the load. He sent very mixed signals in that regard over the past few seasons. He'd go a few games with tons of trust in his "supporting cast" then he'd go a game or two without any trust.

The fact that LeBron has areas of concern on the basketball court and yet he is still the most dangerous player on the court is scary. So the sooner the Browns win a SB the easier getting past this LeBron crap will be.

[papacass]

But anyone who needed to create shots off the dribble was going to, sooner or later, stand on Bron's toes.

Think Miami thought of that? They may be doomed if one creator is all you can put out there.

True. Of course, if Riles' grand plan comes to fruition, Bron will be a 6'-8", 260-pound Steve Nash, sacrificing his own shots to set up Wade and Bosh. 70 percent of the time, Bron's job will be to create shots for the other four guys on the floor.

It sounds like, at least in theory, Riley is envisioning an offense with very little freelancing, which is 180 degrees from the "let nature run its course" offense that Mike Brown presided over.

[daddywags]

I have them between 25-35 wins with my emphasis on the low end of that range. A couple observations:

- The most ppg Mo's ever averaged is 17 and change. He averaged 15.8 last season so I really don't see him scoring all that much more sans LeBron. (His highest average ever was with LeBron.)

- People hear that Byron Scott likes to run an uptempo offense and assume we're going to score lots of points. Truth is Scott's teams have almost always been in the lower end of the league in offensive ppg. I looked it up once and I'm not going to take the time to do it again now, but my recollection is that his teams have been top 10 in scoring in the league once in his years as a HC and at his last two stops his teams have averaged less ppg in his first year as HC as they had the year before he got there. So I wouldn't just assume that Byron Scott = uptempo offense = more points scored.

- I can't get over my impression that this team will be incredibly easy to defend. We have two proven scorers on the team: Jamo and Mo. Opponents will double Jamison whenever he gets the ball or try to force him to take tough shots; they will keep a tough perimeter defender on Mo and make somebody else beat them. Who's that going to be?

[Orenthal]

Just responding to the point of LBJ not making anyone better.

How in the world he didn't make life easier for Antwan Jamison I'm not sure.

Just gonna respond in the opposite manner.

Sure he made it easier for people to get spot up jumpers. However at least in terms of Mo and 'Twan their games were much more then spot up jump-shooters. His domination of the ball created a stagnant offense with almost zero movement. This made his drives easy to defend for the elite teams, and made rotations off his passes easier.

Sure guys would get open looks and easy dunks, but against any of the good defensive teams, or ones that played zone, we were pretty easy to contain.

This is assuming that if you had a playmaking point guard and some guys that could create their own shots, Lebron would still do exactly as he did here, correct? Because I'm not ready to make that assumption just yet.

Somehow, he went from a great passer mid-season to a selfish passer headed to Miami.

You'll see more movement off the ball this year and you'll still see the guy use about the best damned court vision in the league.

We do understand that Lebron at his most selfish-ball hogging was never nearly as selfish and ball hogging as a guy in LA, correct?

Difference is one guy could go 6-24 in game 7 and have his competent teammates bail him out. And the other lost game 1 thru 7, hell, 1 thru 82, just about every time he wasn't dead nuts.

All I'm askin' is we seperate the hate. I hate Kobe, as a player and a rapist, but the effin' guy can play. Lebron is in his class, with a chance to be better, whether we like him or not.

And his skills are not championship deterent or eroding, no matter how much we wish it so.

I don't think there is any doubt, at least from this poster, that I would still rather have LeBron and LeISO, to him in Miami. Team may still be crap, only point is that there is some talent on the team, and that some of those players may show themselves to have somewhat more complete games then when LeBron was here.

[leadpipe]

Just responding to the point of LBJ not making anyone better.

How in the world he didn't make life easier for Antwan Jamison I'm not sure.

Just gonna respond in the opposite manner.

Sure he made it easier for people to get spot up jumpers. However at least in terms of Mo and 'Twan their games were much more then spot up jump-shooters. His domination of the ball created a stagnant offense with almost zero movement. This made his drives easy to defend for the elite teams, and made rotations off his passes easier.

Sure guys would get open looks and easy dunks, but against any of the good defensive teams, or ones that played zone, we were pretty easy to contain.

This is assuming that if you had a playmaking point guard and some guys that could create their own shots, Lebron would still do exactly as he did here, correct? Because I'm not ready to make that assumption just yet.

Somehow, he went from a great passer mid-season to a selfish passer headed to Miami.

You'll see more movement off the ball this year and you'll still see the guy use about the best damned court vision in the league.

We do understand that Lebron at his most selfish-ball hogging was never nearly as selfish and ball hogging as a guy in LA, correct?

Difference is one guy could go 6-24 in game 7 and have his competent teammates bail him out. And the other lost game 1 thru 7, hell, 1 thru 82, just about every time he wasn't dead nuts.

All I'm askin' is we seperate the hate. I hate Kobe, as a player and a rapist, but the effin' guy can play. Lebron is in his class, with a chance to be better, whether we like him or not.

And his skills are not championship deterent or eroding, no matter how much we wish it so.

I don't think there is any doubt, at least from this poster, that I would still rather have LeBron and LeISO, to him in Miami. Team may still be crap, only point is that there is some talent on the team, and that some of those players may show themselves to have somewhat more complete games then when LeBron was here.

Very fair.

And, we're going to see this play out. The guys we have left, and how Lebron does in South Beach.

My whole point was that it was getting to a silly level - the fact that Lebron was somehow retarding his teammates games more than helping them.