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The ugly side of oversigning......

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The ugly side of oversigning......

Unread postby JCoz » Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:15 pm

I realize this is kind of how they do business in the SEC, but kid got a pretty raw deal here....already on campus for months when they pull his ship and offer a greyshirt - I was on another board talking to an LSU fan, and this dude actually believed that kids never know they are being offered a grey shirt til stuff like this happens. That kids are never told upfront that they are being offered a greyshirt and not a full ride. Also said there was little difference between a redshirt and a greyshirt.

Hilarious.

I understand that oversigning is common practice in the SEC, but for christ's sake be upfront about a kids position on the totem pole from the get. The timing on this is inexcusable. No way should a kid be moved in for months, a day before fall camp starts, and then be told he has to pay his way this semester or GTFO.

Bait and switch - not classy.




Elliot Porter spent the summer months in Baton Rouge, one of 20-plus freshmen signees who enrolled in summer school in June and began their offseason workouts with the team.

When running back Jakhari Gore was given the go-ahead by the NCAA Clearinghouse on Monday, head coach Les Miles realized that – because all of LSU’s 2010 signees had qualified in time for Thursday’s start of fall camp – two names couldn’t enroll on scholarship this fall.

The staff offered Porter one of the greyshirt opportunities.

The results of the conversation – Porter being released from his letter of intent – have since left the New Orleans native hesitant about his next step.

“It’s true that I asked for my release, but at this point I’m still considering the greyshirt offer,” said Porter on Tuesday evening. “My family and I are still talking about that, but I’m also keeping my options open.”

While Porter wouldn’t go into detail about colleges that have been in contact since his release, attention is evidently pouring in.

“I have some other offers and I’ve heard from a lot of schools,” Porter said. “I’m just not ready to talk about that right now. I would still like to play big-time, Division-I football. I also want to make a decision soon, but I don’t know right now when that will be.”
"I won’t tell you exactly what it’s about, but this is typical of what might happen,'' he said. "I said, ‘Tom, do you want to do this?’ He said, ‘I don’t think I do. I think it’s too much or too strong or whatever.’ I said, ‘well, we might have to.’ And he goes, ‘well, if we have to, then you’ve got to tell me, because I won’t do it.’ And I said, ‘OK, then I might have to tell you. Fine.'''

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Re: The ugly side of oversigning......

Unread postby danwismar » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:15 pm

The SEC was finally shamed into implementing new rules limiting recruiting class size to 28 in June of 2009, effective with this year's class of freshmen...so the practice has been addressed, and presumably solved for the long term. But coaches still have the early enrollment and grayshirting maneuvers they can use to fudge the numbers somewhat...and it looks like they're taking full advantage of them.

There's no excuse though, for what they did to this kid. Unbelievable.

Excuse the self-linking, but I did get into this issue, especially as it concerns the SEC, in a Feb, 2010 Buckeye Leaves. It has some informative links about what the SEC has done about oversigning, and how bad the problem was before:

http://bit.ly/duDwff
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Re: The ugly side of oversigning......

Unread postby Bayou Tribe » Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:41 pm

This thread is packed full of hilarity. Late-breaking news, hold onto your seats....


Les Miles is in over his head.




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Re: The ugly side of oversigning......

Unread postby danwismar » Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:17 pm

Yes, we know Les Miles is sub-human....but somehow we just can't hear it often enough. Here's something on Miles and oversigning with yesterday's date on it....hope that's timely enough for Bayou...

http://bit.ly/cSXBNS
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Re: The ugly side of oversigning......

Unread postby motherscratcher » Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:59 pm

Is this a problem mostly with the SEC or is it nation wide?

Does anyone know how often (if ever) Tressel and tOSU has had to trim excess? It sounds like a terrible practice, but I like to know how big of a hypocrite I am before getting all sanctimonious about stuff like this.
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Re: The ugly side of oversigning......

Unread postby danwismar » Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:38 pm

The Big Ten was the first major conference to enact rules against oversigning, so it follows that they have been mostly immune from the kinds of criticism the SEC has received lately. The Buckeyes under Tressel have typically undersigned...averaging, I believe, about 20 signees per year over the last five or six years. (By comparison, the new SEC rules "limit" the programs to 28 signees per year....and 25 enrollees, to allow for some non-qualifiers.

If every player stayed for four years (instead of the occasional five, somewhat cancelled out by the occasional early departure after 3) signing 21 kids per year would be about right to hit the 85 total maximum scholarships at any one time.

Tressel likes to leave himself some wiggle room, because he likes to award scholarships to one or two walk-ons each year to reward guys who have been in the program for a year or two and made a contribution.

The only "grayshirt" they have had in the last five years or so was Todd Boeckman...and he was told right at the outset that's what they wanted to do with him, so he went in to it with his eyes open, knowing he'd be paying his own way at first, and counting on the following year's recruit count.

Every program has attrition...guys who transfer...decide to quit the program after long histories of injuries...recruits who sign but never enroll due to grade issues...guys who fail to stay academically eligible after they enroll...or get disciplined for off the field stuff and leave or get thrown out. OSU has had players in all these categories in the Tressel years and before, but I have not heard so much as a rumor that any player has been leaned on against his wishes to leave the program under any of the above circumstances.

And never anything even approaching what LSU did to this Elliott kid.

In fact, they are carrying several non-contributing upperclassmen (no need to name names...we know who they are) that other programs might well have run off by now, given their numbers problems. The old recruiting adage is that it isn't the recruits you don't get that kill you...it's the ones you do get that take up a scholarship for four years and never contribute to the program that kill you.

I'm sure coaches have heart-to-heart talks with players about realistic chances of playing time, etc...and that might lead guys (like Jermil Martin this year) to decide to transfer. OSU has had a couple of players that could be considered in the category of "sign and place" if you stretch the definition a little bit.

The practice is widely used in the SEC....signing kids with the full knowledge that they won't qualify on grades, and then "stashing" them in program-friendly JC's where they try to get eligible (while playing ball, working on the weights, etc) while also keeping them from competing programs. The occasional (and that's the key word here) OSU player who goes to Fork Union (Carlos Hyde recently)and then moves on to OSU is the only thing that really compares.

The Hyde case is really the only one recently I can think of at OSU. Eddie George came out of Fork Union Military (almost 20 years ago) but he was not a guy who was recruited and signed before he went there. Even the Duron Carter situation isn't comparable, since he signed, enrolled as eligible, and played a year before being forced to go to a JC due to grade issues at OSU.

I'm not up on how much or how little the issue has been a problem elsewhere in the Big Ten, but like I said, they outlawed oversigning a few years before the other conferences got into it. I do know that other BT schools use the junior college system much more than OSU does.
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Re: The ugly side of oversigning......

Unread postby JCoz » Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:50 pm

It's not an issue at all in the Big Ten, and not under Tressel certainly.

Jim Tressel gives out ships to senior walk ons nearly every year, and was chronically under the 85, to some recruiting fans chagrin, so OSU is absolutely nothing like the SEC in that particular regard.

The JUCO's we've had (basically one or two) were for grades, and if they had signed on from the outset, Tressel would not have had to crunch any numbers, the space was already there.

OSU doesn't generally (at all that I know of) hand out what people in the SEC (and some other conferences) call "uncommitable" offers.
"I won’t tell you exactly what it’s about, but this is typical of what might happen,'' he said. "I said, ‘Tom, do you want to do this?’ He said, ‘I don’t think I do. I think it’s too much or too strong or whatever.’ I said, ‘well, we might have to.’ And he goes, ‘well, if we have to, then you’ve got to tell me, because I won’t do it.’ And I said, ‘OK, then I might have to tell you. Fine.'''

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Re: The ugly side of oversigning......

Unread postby Bayou Tribe » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:51 pm

wiz1001 wrote:Yes, we know Les Miles is sub-human....but somehow we just can't hear it often enough. Here's something on Miles and oversigning with yesterday's date on it....hope that's timely enough for Bayou...

http://bit.ly/cSXBNS




I don't know if you thought I was being sarcastic, but I wasn't. I honestly think Miles is a dolt. I don't even believe that he is a bad guy or has dishonest intentions, I just think he is incapable of running a big time program.

Also, he has 10 scholarship seniors this year and 1 automatic early draft entry and he's got 17 commitments right now. Gonna sign 23-25 again this year and go through the same nonsense next fall.
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Re: The ugly side of oversigning......

Unread postby danwismar » Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:35 am

I getcha Bayou...but Doyel sure thinks Miles is a bad guy. He says it in so many words...as if Miles is just cynically trying to get around the new oversigning rules with other dishonest, shady practices....

...which is exactly what it looks like he's doing. Stupidity doesn't account for all of that.
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Re: The ugly side of oversigning......

Unread postby Bayou Tribe » Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:41 pm

wiz1001 wrote:...which is exactly what it looks like he's doing. Stupidity doesn't account for all of that.



I agree, it isn't all due to stupidity. I just hate alot of things he does as a head coach. Right now we have 4 punters/kickers on scholly compared to 3 QB's, shit like that just bugs the hell out of me.


I also take Doyel with a grain of salt, fwiw. He's a decent writer, during the season he puts out some good stuff, but he does nothing to hide the fact that he's a die hard Tennessee homer. Every year at this time he throws mud out there directed towards Gainesville, Tuscaloosa, Baton Rouge, etc. It's getting to be more schtick than anything.
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Re: The ugly side of oversigning......

Unread postby JCoz » Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:38 am

Bayou Tribe wrote:
wiz1001 wrote:...which is exactly what it looks like he's doing. Stupidity doesn't account for all of that.



I agree, it isn't all due to stupidity. I just hate alot of things he does as a head coach. Right now we have 4 punters/kickers on scholly compared to 3 QB's, shit like that just bugs the hell out of me.


I also take Doyel with a grain of salt, fwiw. He's a decent writer, during the season he puts out some good stuff, but he does nothing to hide the fact that he's a die hard Tennessee homer. Every year at this time he throws mud out there directed towards Gainesville, Tuscaloosa, Baton Rouge, etc. It's getting to be more schtick than anything.


That isn't the only teams he does that with....also, his relatively new profile pic is hilarious to anyone who remembers the old one...

Can you say Identity crisis?
"I won’t tell you exactly what it’s about, but this is typical of what might happen,'' he said. "I said, ‘Tom, do you want to do this?’ He said, ‘I don’t think I do. I think it’s too much or too strong or whatever.’ I said, ‘well, we might have to.’ And he goes, ‘well, if we have to, then you’ve got to tell me, because I won’t do it.’ And I said, ‘OK, then I might have to tell you. Fine.'''

Our fearless leader in the Draft War Room getting his hands dirty.

Yay for us.
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