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More hope dashed...

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More hope dashed...

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:46 pm

Big Al heading to the Jazz. Second guy to get traded that I had a man-crush on (first was Anthony Randolph to the Knicks). Was one of the few legitimate players with star ability that was actually available on the open market. Don't know how hard the Cavs tried but wish they woulda tried harder.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/basketball/nba/07/13/jefferson.ap/index.html


Also, Anthony Morrow was S&T'ed to New Jersey.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/?eref=sinav
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby dmiles » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:51 pm

Is two first rounders a bit high?
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07! » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:52 pm

The Wolves now have nothing to show from the KG trade.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:55 pm

Given away for cap space basically. Those first round picks will be in the 20 - 25 region. The Cavailers could have easily done something here that included Ramon Sessions. WTF was Kahn even doing trading for Beasley, signing Darko, while having love and Jefferson?

BTW worked myself into the same man-love. Cavaliers need to get their shit together and not say they are going to make winning moves then sit with their thumbs up their asses. Can't they communicate to fans what they are doing while not losing any edge in trade talks (the blow up).
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby papacass » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:55 pm

I don't know if trying harder would have helped. The Cavs don't have a lot to work with right now.

They do have the $16 million or close to it LBJ trade exception, but they have a year to use it. Best to try and find a deal worth using it on. I don't think Al Jefferson is a big enough piece to for a team like the Cavs to blow a wad on him. Nice player. Cavs need more than that, with what few bullets are left in the chamber.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby aoxo1 » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:12 pm

I never liked the idea of trading for a big man who is injured every year.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby daddywags » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:12 pm

Minnesota wanted something more than cap relief and they got it. Two first round picks and a large TPE. When we use our TPE I want to be the team getting the draft picks, not giving them up. By most accounts I've seen, Jefferson can put up good numbers on a bad team, doesn't run the floor well, and is pretty lousy on defense. I wouldn't want to have given up our TPE plus, say, the two first round picks we got from Miami for him (which would be pretty much the equal of what Utah gave up).

Hopefully, Grant has talked some sense into Gilbert and they've decided to wait a while and let things play out instead of overpaying for guys who at best will push us to 40 or so wins and a first round playoff exit.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:15 pm

I don't know Cass. If you make that deal, or if the tweaked deal was available with Sessions involved I think it is one that can set up the Cavaliers for the future. If there was something anything we could have given them to reduce that to only 1 first I have to make it happen.

To allow a 24 year old post player to just be traded for cap sapce and low first round picks seems to go against the whole winning move philosophy. Also this by no means slows your movement to unload guys. Jefferson has never known winning and wouldn't be in any kind of position to complain as we went through another couple years of reloading. Sessions is also a young guy with potential, a true PG who's major struggle is his outside shot. Good distributor, ability to get to the basket and get throws, and plays decent defense with more height/length then Mo.

I am deathly afraid of Grant.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:17 pm

aoxo1 wrote:I never liked the idea of trading for a big man who is injured every year.


That is the one point that would talk me off the ledge. Just getting antsy. Gilbert and Grant should can the "winning moves" speech and prepare the fanbase. Hoping CBA uncertainty works in our favor with the exception.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby papacass » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:37 pm

Orenthal wrote:
I am deathly afraid of Grant.



No question, Grant is a draft guy, he's not plugged into the GM channels in the way Ferry was. Ferry could at least get another GM to listen. Grant may not even have that kind of street cred yet. He is not in a position to be a wheeler-dealer as a rookie GM. Experience and developing connections are the only cures for that.

Having said all of that, I don't think Jefferson and Sessions were going to pull the Cavs back to where they want to be, which is contending for the Finals. Make them better, yes, but a 48-50 win team that reaches the second round in a good year is not where the Cavs want or need to be.

You have one shot to use that trade exception, and you need to make it count in a big way. I know we all desperately want to see the Cavs jump right back on the horse and start making moves to get better, but it's probably not going to happen that way.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:49 pm

I'm more or less looking for young talent you can build around. Whatever avenues make that happen I am cool with long term. Even if we miss out on a guy like Jefferson, which puzzles me, if we wind up being able to get out of Jamo and Mo (<-long term deal) for picks I'm cool passing on Jefferson.

Just don't let that exception expire or wait out things with no plan. IMO the Cavaliers as constituted are a 25-30 win team. That is probably getting you closer to 5-7 then #1. I'm really just confused by what the spin out of the Cavaliers FO. Kinda lost in the ether between what they have said, and what seems to be happening. Not that the latter is bad, seems the blow up is what was wanted, just again Grant scares the shit out of me.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby papacass » Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:43 pm

Orenthal wrote:Just don't let that exception expire or wait out things with no plan. IMO the Cavaliers as constituted are a 25-30 win team.


They won't let a $16 million-ish trade exception go by the boards. Otherwise, they gave Miami an extra year and LBJ extra money for no good reason. That exception will be used, just a matter of when and how.

As it stands, the Cavs are probably a .500 team. I wish they were 25-30 wins. It would make the decision to tear it down much easier. But as of now, led by Mo, Jamo and Hickson, the Cavs are probably 38-44 wins, at the ass end of the lottery or the ass end of the playoff seeding. The worst possible place to be for an NBA team. Equidistant from contention and rebuilding.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:56 pm

That is why I am in a tizzy. We are smack dab in the middle of stupid-land. I'm just so totally lost right now I'm not really able to think rationally, or assign rational thought to what the Cavaliers are doing.

Tradin' season slows down the next few weeks doesn't it, not to restart until closer to the deadline?

Not that letting Wally walk is the same thing, but we have done some pretty stupid things, and Toronto also has an exception. Anyone else have a large exception from the FA period?
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:00 pm

papacass wrote:As it stands, the Cavs are probably a .500 team. I wish they were 25-30 wins. It would make the decision to tear it down much easier. But as of now, led by Mo, Jamo and Hickson, the Cavs are probably 38-44 wins, at the ass end of the lottery or the ass end of the playoff seeding. The worst possible place to be for an NBA team. Equidistant from contention and rebuilding.


But throw in the trade exception and the Heat picks and you have the ammo and situation for a star looking to relocate.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby daddywags » Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:08 pm

Cass, I disagree. I don't think the team as currently constructed stands a ghost of chance of scoring enough points to win 38-44 games. We scored 8373 points in the regular season in 2009-10. Shaq, Z, West and you know who accounted for 46% of those points. Having Jamo around all year would pick up the slack on some of those points and maybe Mo can average 18 instead of 16 (he's never averaged more than 17 and change), but I see a team that will struggle to score 95 points per game (which would put us third last in the league last year). I'm still thinking 20 on the low side, 30 on the high side with a best guess of 27. And that's okay by me since I want us picking top 5 next year if at all possible.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:17 pm

Cass, you gotta explain how a 25 year old that has twice hit 20 and 10 for seasons, is considered the best young low post scorer in the game, is only locked up for three years so can be moved if he falls apart and is a great personality is not enough?!

What are you hoping for?

Melo?

CP3?

Reke?

Curry?

If you would prefer using the exemption to grab shitty contracts and draft picks fine, but Jefferson is a bona-fide second tier NBA player that can be built around and is a damn solid use of that exemption.

I would not be shocked at all to see us blow using it if we keep approaching this from a "SUPER HUGE AWESOME PLAYER MUST COME BACK" angle.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby Orenthal » Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:31 pm

^Exactly. Getting Jefferson would not have stopped any type of rebuild because the guy would still be an in demand player with a somewhat reasonable contract for his production and age. Jamo and MO can still be moved, and possibly you grab Sessions a nice yound PG with potential.

The trade deadline could just as easily be a bust due to uncertainty from the CBA situation. Give me the slightest hint of whom you think may be available in that time? Any stud that would have magically become available could be gon after with Jefferson or a mix. Just think he was let go for a reasonable enough price that we should have been deep in the mix.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby waborat » Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:33 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:

"SUPER HUGE AWESOME PLAYER MUST COME BACK"


Bartolo Colon?
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby CP » Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:02 pm

I wanted Jefferson but not at the cost of two 1sts. Cavs have the potential for high lottery picks depending on who is traded and when.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:03 pm

CP wrote:I wanted Jefferson but not at the cost of two 1sts. Cavs have the potential for high lottery picks depending on who is traded and when.


Two of ours, yeah that would have sucked.

Two of the Heats, I may not have cried about that. Not sure I would have pulled the trigger, but I certainly would have considered it.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby CP » Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:11 pm

Apparently Utah also threw in Koufas. Good piece for Minnesota; he may yet develop. Kahn actually has made two decent deals, getting Beasley for peanuts and then probably selling high on Jefferson.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:14 pm

Yeah, just what Kahn needed, another shitty Euro center.

He already has Darko and Pekovic locked up for $33M, why not add Kosta to rot behind em!
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby motherscratcher » Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:17 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Yeah, just what Kahn needed, another shitty Euro center.

He already has Darko and Pekovic locked up for $33M, why not add Kosta to rot behind em!


Is Kosta a euro? I thought he was a, you know, US American. Despite his silly name.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:21 pm

Born in Akron but is such a Greek American he has dual citizenship and has played for Greek national team.

He's a Euro EOD.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby Prosecutor » Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:12 pm

daddywags wrote:Cass, I disagree. I don't think the team as currently constructed stands a ghost of chance of scoring enough points to win 38-44 games. We scored 8373 points in the regular season in 2009-10. Shaq, Z, West and you know who accounted for 46% of those points. Having Jamo around all year would pick up the slack on some of those points and maybe Mo can average 18 instead of 16 (he's never averaged more than 17 and change), but I see a team that will struggle to score 95 points per game (which would put us third last in the league last year). I'm still thinking 20 on the low side, 30 on the high side with a best guess of 27. And that's okay by me since I want us picking top 5 next year if at all possible.


You think the Cavs might average 95 points, wags? I'm skeptical. Keep in mind that about 80% of Hickson's points came on dunks off LeBron passes out of a double team. Same with most of AV's points. Without LeBron we got nobody who can get his own shot, except possibly Jamo.

Scott is going to install a running game and a halfcourt offense based on ball movement, so that might help free up some shots. I still can't see 95 a game with what we've got, though. And we still don't have a point guard or a true center. 32-50 sounds about right to me, and that's being generous based on Byron's track record of turning around bad teams.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby papacass » Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:29 am

e0y2e3 wrote:Cass, you gotta explain how a 25 year old that has twice hit 20 and 10 for seasons, is considered the best young low post scorer in the game, is only locked up for three years so can be moved if he falls apart and is a great personality is not enough?.


If he's the best low post scorer in the game, why does he keep getting moved? If the desperate Minnesota Timberwolves don't want to build around you, I don't think you must be that much of a foundational player.

Again, Jefferson is a nice, solid player. But if you build around him, your ceiling is probably going to be well below title contention. Jeff would have been a superb addition alongside LBJ. Without LBJ, he's not the centerpiece the Cavs need if they want to return to relevance in short order.

And yes, Wags, they are right around a .500 team as currently constructed. The mistake a lot of people make is assuming that teams are filled with static, mathematical pieces. And if you lose a guy who averaged 20 PPG and a guy who averaged 13 PPG, your team will score 33 fewer PPG.

In reality, teams are constructed of moving parts. The Cavs will make a sustained effort to push the ball this year with Byron Scott running the show. Hickson will have to start getting his own shots, and not be reliant on taking passes off LeBron from back-door cuts. Mo and Twan, if both are still here, will have to step up their scoring. There will be many more shots to go around for all three of them.

Players will step into expanded roles without LBJ. Will losing LBJ hurt? Obviously. But to assume that they're losing his 28 PPG, so that 28 PPG is just enitrely gone, is flawed thinking.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby Prosecutor » Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:00 am

But to assume that they're losing his 28 PPG, so that 28 PPG is just enitrely gone, is flawed thinking.


I don't think that's what Wags was saying. The Cavs averaged 100.2 ppg last year. Take away LeBron's 29.1 and you're left with 71. Wags never implied they'll score 71; he said they might not score 95.

Take the 100.2 they averaged last year. Take away LeBron's 29.1 and the additional 15.2 points that were scored off his 7.6 assists per game (assuming they were all 2-pointers). Also subtract Shaq's 11.5 and Delonte's 6.7 ppg. That's a lot of points that will have to be made up somehow, by a bunch of guys who can't create their own shots for the most part.

I'm hopeful that Scott's uptempo offense will result in more shots and higher percentage shots, but if the Cavs only lose 5 points a game with the departure of LeBron, Shaq, and Delonte with no proven scorers to replace them, then Scott should get another Coach of the Year award.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby daddywags » Wed Jul 14, 2010 11:30 am

papacass wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Cass, you gotta explain how a 25 year old that has twice hit 20 and 10 for seasons, is considered the best young low post scorer in the game, is only locked up for three years so can be moved if he falls apart and is a great personality is not enough?.


If he's the best low post scorer in the game, why does he keep getting moved? If the desperate Minnesota Timberwolves don't want to build around you, I don't think you must be that much of a foundational player.

Again, Jefferson is a nice, solid player. But if you build around him, your ceiling is probably going to be well below title contention. Jeff would have been a superb addition alongside LBJ. Without LBJ, he's not the centerpiece the Cavs need if they want to return to relevance in short order.

And yes, Wags, they are right around a .500 team as currently constructed. The mistake a lot of people make is assuming that teams are filled with static, mathematical pieces. And if you lose a guy who averaged 20 PPG and a guy who averaged 13 PPG, your team will score 33 fewer PPG.

In reality, teams are constructed of moving parts. The Cavs will make a sustained effort to push the ball this year with Byron Scott running the show. Hickson will have to start getting his own shots, and not be reliant on taking passes off LeBron from back-door cuts. Mo and Twan, if both are still here, will have to step up their scoring. There will be many more shots to go around for all three of them.

Players will step into expanded roles without LBJ. Will losing LBJ hurt? Obviously. But to assume that they're losing his 28 PPG, so that 28 PPG is just enitrely gone, is flawed thinking.


I understand that, which is why I didn't say they'd score 70 ppg. We lost a guy who averaged 30 and 7 and was the constant focus of two or three guys on defense for every team we faced. We averaged 102 ppg last year with him and I'm saying we'll be doing well to average 7 less ppg without him (and without adding anything to the roster, which is how I understand the discussion set up in the first place). It's hard for me to believe that that's some sort of naive take. If we average 95 ppg we go from 9th in the NBA to 28th and from 3rd in the EC to 13th.

There were four teams last year that averaged less than 96 ppg. Charlotte won 44 games, Detroit won 27, the Clippers won 29 and New Jersey won 12. So it's possible to score that little and win 40 games but not likely. It's also possible that we'll subtract LeBron and not miss a beat offensively, but not likely. Time will tell.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:05 pm

papacass wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:Cass, you gotta explain how a 25 year old that has twice hit 20 and 10 for seasons, is considered the best young low post scorer in the game, is only locked up for three years so can be moved if he falls apart and is a great personality is not enough?.


If he's the best low post scorer in the game, why does he keep getting moved? If the desperate Minnesota Timberwolves don't want to build around you, I don't think you must be that much of a foundational player.


He got moved for KG and because Kahn is a moron, nothing else.

And best young post scorer in the game is pretty much universally understood.

I get that he is a sidekick and not the man, but can you honestly tell me you expect to get "The Man" w/ this exemption? (His contract is friendly enough you could add him and "The Man" down the line)

If so I recommend you lay off sniffing the paint at your easel.
Last edited by e0y2e3 on Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby papacass » Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:18 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:If so I recommend you lay off sniffing the paint at your easel.


I'm going to take the road less traveled and keep my mouth shut here. I said what I needed to say. You want to be a cranky SOB because someone showed some love for one of my columns, that's your problem.

If that put me on the Eye shit list, guess I'll have to manage.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:25 pm

papacass wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:If so I recommend you lay off sniffing the paint at your easel.


I'm going to take the road less traveled and keep my mouth shut here. I said what I needed to say. You want to be a cranky SOB because someone showed some love for one of my columns, that's your problem.

If that put me on the Eye shit list, guess I'll have to manage.


It was sarcasm and no ill anything was intended, but if you want to be sensitive and overreact be my guest.

I mean, I told OJ I hope his paint is replaced with sulfuric acid just yesterday and OJ is my boy.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby tired » Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:47 pm

papacass wrote:
e0y2e3 wrote:If so I recommend you lay off sniffing the paint at your easel.


I'm going to take the road less traveled and keep my mouth shut here. I said what I needed to say. You want to be a cranky SOB because someone showed some love for one of my columns, that's your problem.

If that put me on the Eye shit list, guess I'll have to manage.
I don't even need an ignore button to ignore his post's papa. I just see his av and scroll past. Hell if I want to read anything by a flamin flamer I'll just read my ex-wife's texts.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:48 pm

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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:13 pm

Al Jefferson is so good, the teams he's played on have enjoyed one winning record.

04-05 Celtics: 45-37
05-06 Celtics: 33-49
06-07 Celtics: 24-58
07-08 T'Wolves: 22-60
08-09 T'Wolves: 24-58
09-10 T'Wolves: 15-67
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:20 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Al Jefferson is so good, the teams he's played on have enjoyed one winning record.

04-05 Celtics: 45-37
05-06 Celtics: 33-49
06-07 Celtics: 24-58
07-08 T'Wolves: 22-60
08-09 T'Wolves: 24-58
09-10 T'Wolves: 15-67



:bunny:


Played about 15 minutes/game in his 1st 2 years (drafted as a high schooler) then traded the year after he broke out to the rebuilding T'Wolves.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby GodHatesClevelandSport » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:45 pm

rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Al Jefferson is so good, the teams he's played on have enjoyed one winning record.

04-05 Celtics: 45-37
05-06 Celtics: 33-49
06-07 Celtics: 24-58
07-08 T'Wolves: 22-60
08-09 T'Wolves: 24-58
09-10 T'Wolves: 15-67



:bunny:


Played about 15 minutes/game in his 1st 2 years (drafted as a high schooler) then traded the year after he broke out to the rebuilding T'Wolves.


So the two most successful teams he was with were the two he played the least for.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby ajunior148 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:46 pm

papacass wrote:Again, Jefferson is a nice, solid player. But if you build around him, your ceiling is probably going to be well below title contention. Jeff would have been a superb addition alongside LBJ. Without LBJ, he's not the centerpiece the Cavs need if they want to return to relevance in short order.


I went back on forth with the idea of trading for Big Al when I first read he was on the trading block and I pretty much agree with this.

Trading for Jefferson right now could be a good deal for some teams while not make sense for the Cavs, and I believe that is the situation here. Kahn is giving this guy away for almost nothing while the Jazz (virtually) end up flipping an older, more expensive and injury prone Boozer for a younger, cheaper, and injury prone Jefferson. It makes sense for them, and I think there is a great chance that Jefferson's value improves this season now that he'll be in a better situation and another year removed from injury.

I think that if the Cavs made this trade we'd be stuck in a situation where we'd be winning ~48 games per year, but with no shot at contending. I hate passing on a guy that has a skill that is very difficult to find, but the timing for us just doesn't make sense right now IMO.

And for all the talk of Jefferson being one of the best low post scorers in the league (he is), there should be talk about how he is not a good defender. I think Utah is hoping Sloan can straighten him out, and that AK47 helps as well.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby rebelwithoutaclue » Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:51 pm

GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:
rebelwithoutaclue wrote:
GodHatesClevelandSport wrote:Al Jefferson is so good, the teams he's played on have enjoyed one winning record.

04-05 Celtics: 45-37
05-06 Celtics: 33-49
06-07 Celtics: 24-58
07-08 T'Wolves: 22-60
08-09 T'Wolves: 24-58
09-10 T'Wolves: 15-67



:bunny:


Played about 15 minutes/game in his 1st 2 years (drafted as a high schooler) then traded the year after he broke out to the rebuilding T'Wolves.


So the two most successful teams he was with were the two he played the least for.



Marko Jaric and Sebastian Telfair combined for 135 starts for the 07-08 T'Wolves. That should tell you all you need to know. Good players can play on bad teams. It has happened before.
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:12 pm

I think people are also missing the point that Al Jefferson was still a viable trade asset even after the Cavaliers make the deal. Kahn is a complete moron and grabbing a young big for nothing must be done. I will wait and see, but count this as one passed by...

Kinda like SJax last year, if these start piling up we may be in trouble.

Guy is 20 and 10 for the two years before his injury. Post injury was 17 and 9. You let him smash some numbers here and he becomes an attractive asset in some major deal. Got him for nothing...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/The-Utah-Jazz-trade-for-Al-Jefferson?urn=nba,255964
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Re: More hope dashed...

Unread postby CP » Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:18 pm

It depends. The way the trade played out, I'm glad the Cavs did not beat the Jazz offer. Kahn got two 1sts and a young big from Utah. Put this into perspective for Cleveland. You're not giving up the 2011 1st, so you're talking 2012 and on.

Cleveland has no star and wasn't going to contend. Jefferson's contract runs out in 12-13, just as the draft picks the Cavs would have traded for him are being used by Minnesota. If Jefferson bolts, Cavs are left with no picks and had the services of a player that had no chance of putting them at the top.

If we're talking about the trade exception and nothing more, you do the deal in a heartbeat. But not for picks in the Cavs' position. Makes sense for teams in the hunt who need the big to win now.
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