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Looks like an S & T

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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby JJN » Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:32 pm

Big Al really doesn't have that many miles. 400 games played, started less than 300, averaged under 30 minutes a game for his career. One of, if not the best, low post scorers in the league, good size now that he has dropped some weight (I'm assuming he has kept it off)

That said, unless we have a really clear plan to be a contender, I don't want him unless we are just using him to pick up more young assets. I don't see the Cavs being built as a team where Jefferson can lead us deep into the playoffs. He hasn't shown the ability to stay healthy, nor play defense. If we were using him in a three way trade to get more picks and/or young talent, then, and only then do I really like it as a trade.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby StewieG » Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:58 pm

JJN wrote:If we were using him in a three way trade to get more picks and/or young talent, then, and only then do I really like it as a trade.


And that's another way we could execute the Presti plan. Use the exception as a facilitator for other teams, and get more picks in return.

We have several months for Gilbert to calm down before we're really under the gun to do something with that exception. I hope Grant/Gilbert are smart enough to do the smart thing. The more draft picks you have, the more chances you have to luck into a really good pick or a really good player. Also, it would give us more ammo to trade multiple picks to get a higher one.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby Orenthal » Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:10 pm

I see some mediocre drafting but we were always in that mid'ish draft range. Seems to me that trading picks for marginal talent was a bigger problem. Paxson notwithstanding. The Diop/Wagner back to back makes Embry look like a regular RC Buford. I am only going to go back to 1990 but here goes.

1990 - No First Round Pick
1991 - #11 Terrell Brandon
1992 - No First Round Pick
1993 - #22 Chris Mills
1994 - No First Round Pick
1995 - #17 Bob Sura
1996 - #12 Vitaly Potapenko
#20 Zydrunas Ilgauskas
1997 - #13 Derek Anderson
#16 Brevin Knight
1998 - No First Round Pick
1999 - #8 Andre Miller
#11 Trajan Langdon
2000 - #8 Jamal Crawford
2001 - #8 DeSagana Diop
#20 Brendan Haywood
2002 - #6 DaJuan Wagner
2003 - #1 Obviously
2004 - #10 Luke Jackson
2005 - No First Round Pick
2006 - #25 Shannon Brown
2007 - No First Round Pick
2008 - #19 JJ Hickson
2009 - #30 Christian Eyenga
2010 - No First Round Pick
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:29 pm

Orenthal wrote:I see some mediocre drafting but we were always in that mid'ish draft range. Seems to me that trading picks for marginal talent was a bigger problem. Paxson notwithstanding. The Diop/Wagner back to back makes Embry look like a regular RC Buford. I am only going to go back to 1990 but here goes.

1990 - No First Round Pick
1991 - #11 Terrell Brandon
1992 - No First Round Pick
1993 - #22 Chris Mills
1994 - No First Round Pick
1995 - #17 Bob Sura
1996 - #12 Vitaly Potapenko
#20 Zydrunas Ilgauskas
1997 - #13 Derek Anderson
#16 Brevin Knight
1998 - No First Round Pick
1999 - #8 Andre Miller
#11 Trajan Langdon
2000 - #8 Jamal Crawford
2001 - #8 DeSagana Diop
#20 Brendan Haywood
2002 - #6 DaJuan Wagner
2003 - #1 Obviously
2004 - #10 Luke Jackson
2005 - No First Round Pick
2006 - #25 Shannon Brown
2007 - No First Round Pick
2008 - #19 JJ Hickson
2009 - #30 Christian Eyenga
2010 - No First Round Pick


SD:

It was the worst case scenario last year , no picks when the market was full of big men the one big area
of need prior to Lebitch powdering her pussy in Miami.

It is posible to have the perfect storm players in the draft who can contribute, when we actually have picks .

With a smart coach and system in place and so much on the line and working under Gils edict , the days of wasting picks could be over.


Just sayin.

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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby leadpipe » Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:51 pm

Orenthal wrote:I see some mediocre drafting but we were always in that mid'ish draft range. Seems to me that trading picks for marginal talent was a bigger problem. Paxson notwithstanding. The Diop/Wagner back to back makes Embry look like a regular RC Buford. I am only going to go back to 1990 but here goes.

1990 - No First Round Pick
1991 - #11 Terrell Brandon
1992 - No First Round Pick
1993 - #22 Chris Mills
1994 - No First Round Pick
1995 - #17 Bob Sura
1996 - #12 Vitaly Potapenko
#20 Zydrunas Ilgauskas
1997 - #13 Derek Anderson
#16 Brevin Knight
1998 - No First Round Pick
1999 - #8 Andre Miller
#11 Trajan Langdon
2000 - #8 Jamal Crawford
2001 - #8 DeSagana Diop
#20 Brendan Haywood
2002 - #6 DaJuan Wagner
2003 - #1 Obviously
2004 - #10 Luke Jackson
2005 - No First Round Pick
2006 - #25 Shannon Brown
2007 - No First Round Pick
2008 - #19 JJ Hickson
2009 - #30 Christian Eyenga
2010 - No First Round Pick


Thank God you only went back to 90.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby Orenthal » Sat Jul 10, 2010 8:03 pm

Minus 1986 holy crap. When they did pick someone with any utility they were usually traded before being able to display anything. Lead your point is taken, and the scariest part of the blow up plan.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sat Jul 10, 2010 8:56 pm

lead, you are better then looking at the past.

If the past rings true, might as well give Seattle this team.

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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby YahooFanChicago » Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:43 pm

It's damn hard to rebuild through the draft and it takes a damn long time. I remember the infamous statement by Kraus and Reinsdorf after they blew-up the Jordon-era Bulls saying it wasn't the players it was the system. They thought they were going to quickly build a core through the draft, then sign some top free agents and said the Bulls would be championship contenders within 2-3 years. It's been 10+ years and the Bulls might finally be a tier 2 contender after all this time. They had some very high draft picks during the past 10 years and Rose is the only real potential superstar. Noah isn't even a Pippen-level #2...Boozer might be a Robin-type for Rose but it has taken 10+ years.

Even with Chicago's large market advantage until Boozer they haven't been able to attract any significant free-agents either. And they have tried very hard.

If I'm Gilbert I go for it and try to build onto the current team since he loses too much if he goes into a 5-10 year draft rebuild mode. We don't know how the lock-out will impact the other owner's ability and willingness to spend in 2012-2013. Look at MLB after the lost season in 1994 - - other owner's didn't have the cash to spend and Jacobs was able to use that to his advantage and land some big name free agents. Maybe the same thing happens here?
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby Orenthal » Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:56 pm

YFC don't talk like that around here... They will find every hole in the plug and play.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby YahooFanChicago » Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:29 pm

Orenthal, I don't understand your post? I was just saying that blow-up rebuild is slow and highly risky..not necessarily the less risky, higher probability route that we would think.

I understand the desire to blow this up and start over and even the logic behind it. I just think it is worth trying to build on what we have and if we find during the year that it isn't enough and that even having a better coach we aren't a 5-8 seed we can still decide to do the full bore rebuild. If we decide to do the blow-up rebuild now though we will never know how good our team with Scott as the coach could be.

It's not some plug-and-play agenda or anything.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby YahooFanChicago » Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:31 pm

duplicate post
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:45 am

YahooFanChicago wrote:Orenthal, I don't understand your post? I was just saying that blow-up rebuild is slow and highly risky..not necessarily the less risky, higher probability route that we would think.

I understand the desire to blow this up and start over and even the logic behind it. I just think it is worth trying to build on what we have and if we find during the year that it isn't enough and that even having a better coach we aren't a 5-8 seed we can still decide to do the full bore rebuild. If we decide to do the blow-up rebuild now though we will never know how good our team with Scott as the coach could be.

It's not some plug-and-play agenda or anything.


SD:

He'd like to tell ya to post more because your views are a refreshing change from the world is flat one dimensional thinking around here, butt he doesn't want to draw too much attention to your points lest the Puritans become alerted brand you with a scarlet letter and commence to burn you
at the stake for heresy.


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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:06 am

Orenthal wrote:I see some mediocre drafting but we were always in that mid'ish draft range. Seems to me that trading picks for marginal talent was a bigger problem. Paxson notwithstanding. The Diop/Wagner back to back makes Embry look like a regular RC Buford. I am only going to go back to 1990 but here goes.

1990 - No First Round Pick
1991 - #11 Terrell Brandon
1992 - No First Round Pick
1993 - #22 Chris Mills
1994 - No First Round Pick
1995 - #17 Bob Sura
1996 - #12 Vitaly Potapenko
#20 Zydrunas Ilgauskas
1997 - #13 Derek Anderson
#16 Brevin Knight
1998 - No First Round Pick
1999 - #8 Andre Miller
#11 Trajan Langdon
2000 - #8 Jamal Crawford
2001 - #8 DeSagana Diop
#20 Brendan Haywood
2002 - #6 DaJuan Wagner
2003 - #1 Obviously
2004 - #10 Luke Jackson
2005 - No First Round Pick
2006 - #25 Shannon Brown
2007 - No First Round Pick
2008 - #19 JJ Hickson
2009 - #30 Christian Eyenga
2010 - No First Round Pick
OJ my problem with your list is that everything prior to 2000 was legit. Most of if not all of those guys were serviceable picks. No stars, or all perennial all stars but also none of them were top 5 picks.

I will admit we had a fairly legit coach behind those guys though.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby Orenthal » Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:52 am

SD nails my point to YFC, and Donny I agree completely. I really didn't analyze the list at all, but considering the slots for those mid to late 90's picks, the worst you could say is that it was mediocre. It wasn't until Paxson began trading all our picks, and making secltions of Diop/Wagner that we really tanked.

Funny but that kind of sets up the blow it up plan vs. the plug and play. Well, only if you discount the fact that during that same 90's period when we were making decent pick we were abyssmal at FA signings and trades. We were still under Danny Feery's albatross, the Shawn Kemp got fat... blah blah blah.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:03 am

e0y2e3 wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:I think those draft picks are going to be fairly useless. The second rounders? Come on. Unless we luck out and get a Carlos Boozer, what are going to get in the 2nd round? Role players, which will never take you to the Finals without somebody like Kobe, Wade, or LeBron.

The first round picks in 2013 and 2015/16/17? Please. The Heat will have LeBron/Wade/Bosh through 2016 and Riles will have had 3-5 years to fill in the cracks. The Heat will be similar to the 2008-2010 Celtics, ony their Big Three will be much better than Pierce/Allen/Garnett. Those first round picks will be the last pick in the first round, or close to it. What does that get you? If you're the Cavs, Christian Eyenge.

And what about the Cavs own first round picks in the next five years. You heard Gilbert and Grant. They're not going to blow it up. They're going to try and get better starting now. They still have Mo, AV, and Hickson for a couple of years, and Antwan next year. They'll try and use the exemption to get better. They'll be stuck in .500 territory with no lottery pick for a few more years, and when those Miami picks come along they'll be looking at guys like Shannon Brown and Boobie and Christian.

We had our chance and missed it, and now we are so fucked.


Melt bitch, melt all the way to Tue Indians board.


I'm not melting, asswipe. And I'm already on the Tribe board. I'm just responding to those who think the Cavs can build themselves into a Championship team with the four Heat picks plus their own. The Heat will have an elite team for the next six years, barring serious injuries. Those first round picks will be in Shannon Brown/Christian Eyenga territory. Ours won't be much better. Disagree? Obviously not, or you would have said so, you fuckhead.

I don't see how the Cavs are going to get the next Tim Duncan, Kobe, Wade, LeBron, or Shaq. And without The Guy, you don't contend for the title, no matter how motivated your owner is. Price/Nance/Daugherty/Hod Rod < Jordan, every time.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby Orenthal » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:16 am

The Pistons beat Kobe/Shaq.

The Cavaliers pick will be much better then the Heat. Even myself, the biggest fan of the plug and play, will admit at best your looking at a mid to low playoff seed. That pick is in Hickson or better territory. Plus you still have the exception, one 2 times larger then Presti had, and Presti got an additional 3 first round picks with his exception.

Add to that you have Jamo and Mo that contending teams may want to look at come trade deadline. West's deal is a 5 million savings, and Parker and 'bassy are another 5 million in savings. There is a ton of potential 1st rounders on this team. Also I like the idea of taking a flyer on T-Mac or some such player to flip ala the Indians.

This shit hinges on Grant being able to pull of whatever plan they come up with. That is where my faith lessens.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby peeker643 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:18 am

Like Lee says, you have to hope the failures of the past stay buried with those who made them. Different Folks, Different Strokes. This regime is now on the clock and their player acquisitions will be judged on a fresh sheet of paper starting......now.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby peeker643 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:19 am

Like Lee says, you have to hope the failures of the past stay buried with those who made the decisions. Different Folks, Different Strokes. This regime is now on the clock and their player acquisitions will be judged on a fresh sheet of paper starting......now.

I will say this regime, while not getting Boozered as badly as Paxson/Gund did a few years back, seemed a little bit too surprised that LeBron chose door #3. That doesn't bode really well IMO ;-) ;) :wink:
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby swerb » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:35 am

Last three picks since Grant has been here and running the drafts, some promise. Turns out Shannon Brown is a solid NBA player, got him at 25 ... Hickson, and then obviously the jury is still out on Eyenga.

But that Landgon, Diop, Wagner, Luke Jackson run ... my god. Prolly four of the worst 50 top 10 picks of the last decade.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby CP » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:40 am

Sadly, Brown could be of some use right now in the backcourt.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby Orenthal » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:49 am

Players picked after Diop at 8 include:
9 DET Rodney White
10 BOS Joe Johnson
11 BOS Kedrick Brown
12 SEA Vladimir Radmanovic
13 HOU Richard Jefferson

At the time I only remember hearing rumblings of Jefferson and Johnson as potential Cavaliers picks. The notable thing about this draft is that picks 26, 27, and 28 turned out to be Dalembert, Tinsley, and Tony Parker. Not bad value there...
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby Orenthal » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:52 am

Players picked after Wagner at 6:
7 NYK Nene Hilario
8 LAC Chris Wilcox
9 PHO Amare Stoudemire
10 MIA Caron Butler
11 WAS Jared Jeffries

Just about everyone of those guys outside Amare were mentioned. Of this draft not much of not past these guys. Salmons and Prince late picks.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby Orenthal » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:56 am

Players picked after Jackson at 10:
11 GSW Andris Biedrins
12 SEA Robert Swift
13 POR Sebastian Telfair
14 UTA Kris Humphries
15 BOS Al Jefferson

I really cannot remember what Paxson was going after in this draft. Notables outside these picks Josh Smith, J.R. Smith, Jameer Nelson, D.West, and Kevin Martin.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby Orenthal » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:58 am

The above posts do nothing eliminate blame from Paxson for drafting crap, but it does show that the NBA draft is a rough process and that even around those picks other teams bombed just as bad. Paxson buries himself for the trend of crap and the trades of picks for guys like Jiri.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby waborat » Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:07 am

Prosecutor wrote:I don't see how the Cavs are going to get the next Tim Duncan, Kobe, Wade, LeBron, or Shaq. And without The Guy, you don't contend for the title, no matter how motivated your owner is. Price/Nance/Daugherty/Hod Rod < Jordan, every time.


LBJ < Lewis/Turkoglu

LBJ < Rondo
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:14 am

waborat wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:I don't see how the Cavs are going to get the next Tim Duncan, Kobe, Wade, LeBron, or Shaq. And without The Guy, you don't contend for the title, no matter how motivated your owner is. Price/Nance/Daugherty/Hod Rod < Jordan, every time.


LBJ < Lewis/Turkoglu

LBJ < Rondo
To be fair wabs:

MB & LeBron were < Lewis & Turkeyglue & Howard
A quitting version of LBJ < Rondo.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby Prosecutor » Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:24 am

Orenthal wrote:The Pistons beat Kobe/Shaq.

The Cavaliers pick will be much better then the Heat. Even myself, the biggest fan of the plug and play, will admit at best your looking at a mid to low playoff seed. That pick is in Hickson or better territory. Plus you still have the exception, one 2 times larger then Presti had, and Presti got an additional 3 first round picks with his exception.

Add to that you have Jamo and Mo that contending teams may want to look at come trade deadline. West's deal is a 5 million savings, and Parker and 'bassy are another 5 million in savings. There is a ton of potential 1st rounders on this team. Also I like the idea of taking a flyer on T-Mac or some such player to flip ala the Indians.

This shit hinges on Grant being able to pull of whatever plan they come up with. That is where my faith lessens.


Good points, OJ. I hope you're right and the Cavs can turn that exemption and a couple of players like Mo and Jamo into "a ton of potential first rounders", which gives them the chance for trade-ups. Still, it's tough to see them winning it all without a Dewey, Kobe, DWade, LeBron, or Duncan, and that's what Gilbert is on the hook for. But maybe they can luck into a Rondo in the draft and trade for a Garnett while drafting a Pierce, or something like that.

Thanks for an intelligent response to my post. That's not easy to come by around here.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby waborat » Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:45 am

FUDU wrote:
waborat wrote:
Prosecutor wrote:I don't see how the Cavs are going to get the next Tim Duncan, Kobe, Wade, LeBron, or Shaq. And without The Guy, you don't contend for the title, no matter how motivated your owner is. Price/Nance/Daugherty/Hod Rod < Jordan, every time.


LBJ < Lewis/Turkoglu

LBJ < Rondo
To be fair wabs:

MB & LeBron were < Lewis & Turkeyglue & Howard
A quitting version of LBJ < Rondo.


Meh, fair is for funnel cake
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby YahooFanChicago » Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:11 pm

SD and OJ, thanks for the clarrification. Got it.

I will try not to piss anyone off over here. I'm a pretty casual NBA fan (more of serious MLB fan which may piss people off). Came by here initially and liked it since there are some knowledgeable posters like yourself and some funny as hell posts from people like Peeker.

Question for you and others, when the CAVS were trying to acquire Amare Stoudemeier was it going to be a S&T deal? If so, do you think that would have impacted the former King's (now Prince) decision to leave? I'm not sure if it would have but depending on what we would have had to give up (JJ?) I think we would be in a better position to really compete short term even if Lebron left. Having Amare now with most of our existing complementary pieces (ex JJ and Jamison) I think would still have left us with a 40+ win team without adding anything. If the rumored Amare deal from last year (and even the year before) was not a S&T but just picking-up the remaining time on his old contract we would be really screwed even worse right now.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby Orenthal » Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:35 pm

The Amare deal was a straight up trade. He would still have become a free agent at the end of the season. How this may have changed minds is debatable, and unknown. It was Phoenix that stalled and caused the deal to fall through, per Windy. Some distant voices claim it may not have been as clear who wouldn't give to make the deal happen.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby ajunior148 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:54 pm

Orenthal wrote:Players picked after Jackson at 10:
11 GSW Andris Biedrins
12 SEA Robert Swift
13 POR Sebastian Telfair
14 UTA Kris Humphries
15 BOS Al Jefferson

I really cannot remember what Paxson was going after in this draft. Notables outside these picks Josh Smith, J.R. Smith, Jameer Nelson, D.West, and Kevin Martin.


He wanted to add some outside shooting and another scorer. That was the problem with Paxson. When we needed shooting he added a guy like Jones, Marshall, or Luke when they had huge deficiencies in other areas of their game.

At the time the consensus on this board was for Jameer Nelson. That's not 20/20 hindsight either. I remember seeing highlights of Luke and all of his plays were below the rim yet the Cavs hyped his vertical.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:00 pm

Jackson being a dud, BTW Larry Bird was genius on that sell that draft, and Sasha not developing completely killed this franchise IMO. Two guys with the size we need(ed) and with skill sets that would have IMO made us loaded if their potential were actualized.

Ifs and butts candy and nuts......
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby aoxo1 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 1:06 pm

Danny Ferry signed Jones and Marshall.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby ajunior148 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:17 pm

aoxo1 wrote:Danny Ferry signed Jones and Marshall.


Yep, you're right. Those were Ferry mistakes.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:18 pm

YahooFanChicago wrote:SD and OJ, thanks for the clarrification. Got it.

I will try not to piss anyone off over here. I'm a pretty casual NBA fan (more of serious MLB fan which may piss people off). Came by here initially and liked it since there are some knowledgeable posters like yourself and some funny as hell posts from people like Peeker.

Question for you and others, when the CAVS were trying to acquire Amare Stoudemeier was it going to be a S&T deal? If so, do you think that would have impacted the former King's (now Prince) decision to leave? I'm not sure if it would have but depending on what we would have had to give up (JJ?) I think we would be in a better position to really compete short term even if Lebron left. Having Amare now with most of our existing complementary pieces (ex JJ and Jamison) I think would still have left us with a 40+ win team without adding anything. If the rumored Amare deal from last year (and even the year before) was not a S&T but just picking-up the remaining time on his old contract we would be really screwed even worse right now.


SD:

Oj answered the technical aspects of that trade , I'll try and look at the dynamics.

Amare isn't much better at D than Jamo , and there is some question how that personality may have fit since it was proven unsuccessful with two other superstars Nash and Shag.

On paper it might have worked , butt with the revelation of James deliberately throwing that series so he could extricate his departure here in actuality it wouldn't have changed anything.

and

Instead of having a Jamison with warts we'd be stuck with a big fat zero net after losing James and Amare to free agency plus losing Hickson ta boot in the trade.

Yuuuck as bad as the fuckin we got sans vaseline over the Lebitchathon losing Hickson would been like scraping whats left thru sandpaper.


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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 3:14 pm

Amare didn't get along personally w/ Nash? Damn SD, you must know something no one else in the world knows.

And if Amare were in Cleveland and LBJ ditched in the manor he did he would be an even bigger scumbag, but we also would have a ring.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 3:16 pm

Orenthal wrote:The above posts do nothing eliminate blame from Paxson for drafting crap, but it does show that the NBA draft is a rough process and that even around those picks other teams bombed just as bad. Paxson buries himself for the trend of crap and the trades of picks for guys like Jiri.


Biedrins, Swift and Jefferson were all at least solid.

Swift was showing legit before he tore his leg in half.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 3:18 pm

Orenthal wrote:The Pistons beat Kobe/Shaq.


The Pistons were a team built on a blind squirrel finding two nuts (Dumars on Billups and Wallace), benefited from a terrible, terrible, terrible East and beat a Lake Show team that was falling apart at the seems and characterized by nothing but infighting.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Jul 11, 2010 3:18 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Amare didn't get along personally w/ Nash? Damn SD, you must know something no one else in the world knows.

And if Amare were in Cleveland and LBJ ditched in the manor he did he would be an even bigger scumbag, but we also would have a ring.

If we had Amare and LeBron did exactly as he did in the Boston series we do not win a damn thing. LeBron made sure he had the ball enough to guarantee that even a talent like Amare wouldn't screw up LeBron's long term vacation plans. IMO that is how deep LeBron was in this whole POS mess.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 3:20 pm

YahooFanChicago wrote:Orenthal, I don't understand your post? I was just saying that blow-up rebuild is slow and highly risky..not necessarily the less risky, higher probability route that we would think.

I understand the desire to blow this up and start over and even the logic behind it. I just think it is worth trying to build on what we have and if we find during the year that it isn't enough and that even having a better coach we aren't a 5-8 seed we can still decide to do the full bore rebuild. If we decide to do the blow-up rebuild now though we will never know how good our team with Scott as the coach could be.

It's not some plug-and-play agenda or anything.


So how do you turn a 5-8 seed full of old players and completely void of a Ute that has the potential to become a top five player into a title contender?
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby YahooFanChicago » Sun Jul 11, 2010 3:44 pm

OJ/SD, Thanks for the info.

EO, There is no silver bullet right? I think that is also true if we blow everything up, trade virtually everyone and start from nothing. If you are proposing a gut-job and complete rebuild how would you go from no veteran talent to a championship contender within 3-4 years? Pretty hard to do also right?

I'm by no measure an expert on this but to me it seems to make some sense to try and add a couple of pieces (center and SF) to see if we can be competitive with this team and coach Scott. If we can't then we can still try and fleece some teams during the season when they are close and think they are one piece away. If we can be competitive with this team we can look to add some pieces later in the year also.

It seems that there will be a lock-out after next year. If that is the case it could have a massive impact on free agency, what teams/owners can afford after a long time with no revenue, etc.. The lock-out may give us a rare opportunity in terms of free agency as some owners will have to cut costs, possibly a year with no draft and then a subsequent year with twice as many prospects in the draft. I am sure Grant and Gilbert will factor this into their plans but I think the lockout could help us in terms of draft talent, trades and free agency.

By the way, you're not one of those guys who's gonna try and burn me at the stake are you? :hic:
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 3:58 pm

I posted what a successful blow it up plan is in the Rebuild thread, not going to post it again, but you're off your rocker if you thinks we are going to magically find that last piece.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:49 pm

Orenthal wrote:The above posts do nothing eliminate blame from Paxson for drafting crap, but it does show that the NBA draft is a rough process and that even around those picks other teams bombed just as bad. Paxson buries himself for the trend of crap and the trades of picks for guys like Jiri.


There's also another level than just looking at the guys drafted before or after. Take Wagner as an example. They take that guy with the thought that he is going to give them some help at the point, (much needed at the time) they stated this publically. Then, the guy plays in the summer and....they find out not only he CAN'T play the point, he has zero desire. The fact you don't find this out BEFORE THE FUCKING DRAFT is just beyond ridiculous. Look, if you wanna take a guy that couldn't shoot the ball straight in college, and was undersized for the position he was going to play, and tell me you just "see something in him" he;s a "a scorer" well, ok, you were wrong, it didn't work out, there were better players to draft. But to draft him to fill a need, one that you failed to find out before if he could fill that need, WITH A HIGH PICK IN A LOADED DRAFT, well, if someone calls you a moron, you might not have an argument.

And Lee and Peeker, of course there are new people in place and all that jazz, but to my original point, which was someone hollow and toungue and cheek - but very, very true - The Cleveland Cavaliers, it can be argued, are the worst drafting franchise wire to wire there ever was. That is, when they had picks after the league CHANGED THE RULES because of atrocious draft day deals.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby Orenthal » Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:01 pm

No disagreement on the fact that Paxson had no idea in the type of player. To cover all of Paxson's shortcomings and failures would require book form.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby aoxo1 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:41 pm

But how could drafting a guy who scored 100 points in a HS game be a mistake?
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby OldDawg » Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:41 pm

leadpipe wrote:Take Wagner as an example. They take that guy with the thought that he is going to give them some help at the point, (much needed at the time) they stated this publically. Then, the guy plays in the summer and....they find out not only he CAN'T play the point, he has zero desire. The fact you don't find this out BEFORE THE FUCKING DRAFT is just beyond ridiculous.

Ironically, when the Cavs were sure Mark Price was not the answer at the point and thought that they needed to replace Bagley at the point, they drafted a 2-guard to play the point, a move that was seriously questioned at the time. The following year, Mark Price proved folks wrong that he was indeed the answer at the point, and the Cavs traded 2-guard as a point guard experiment after his first year averaging 7.3 points per game. That player ended up having a career average of 18ppg 9apg and was 2nd or 3rd team All-NBA five times at the point guard position.

Not really trashing your point about Wagner. Just saying that sometimes those "not-sure-the-conversion-to-point-guard" draft guesses work out. Sometimes they don't. And sometimes you give up too quickly on them.

BTW, KJ was taken at pick #7, Reggie Miller by the Pacers at #11.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby leadpipe » Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:02 pm

OldDawg wrote:
leadpipe wrote:Take Wagner as an example. They take that guy with the thought that he is going to give them some help at the point, (much needed at the time) they stated this publically. Then, the guy plays in the summer and....they find out not only he CAN'T play the point, he has zero desire. The fact you don't find this out BEFORE THE FUCKING DRAFT is just beyond ridiculous.

Ironically, when the Cavs were sure Mark Price was not the answer at the point and thought that they needed to replace Bagley at the point, they drafted a 2-guard to play the point, a move that was seriously questioned at the time. The following year, Mark Price proved folks wrong that he was indeed the answer at the point, and the Cavs traded 2-guard as a point guard experiment after his first year averaging 7.3 points per game. That player ended up having a career average of 18ppg 9apg and was 2nd or 3rd team All-NBA five times at the point guard position.

Not really trashing your point about Wagner. Just saying that sometimes those "not-sure-the-conversion-to-point-guard" draft guesses work out. Sometimes they don't. And sometimes you give up too quickly on them.

BTW, KJ was taken at pick #7, Reggie Miller by the Pacers at #11.


The Cavs per usual were not great at that time. Several needs. You simply can not "guess" with that high a pick or "guess" what said player can do with that high a pick. Many guys you "knew" their NBA position left on the board.

Apples and Oranges to Price, especially at a height of 6 foot my ass. Gamble if you're really good and you're reching for a need. Gamble in the second round. Gambling in the top 10, when you could use just about anything is done by losers.

Not to mention with Wagner you were already gambling on with several issues, among them being inexperience and the fact he struggled to see 40%.

For every Price there's a hundred others that work out how everyone thinks they'll work out. And that's minus the guys that NBA GM's were to stupid to figure out what positions they could play before they selected them on their team. And by stupid I mean forgetting to sign Carlos Boozer, one of your only decent draft picks stupid.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby OldDawg » Mon Jul 12, 2010 1:45 am

leadpipe wrote:
OldDawg wrote:
leadpipe wrote:Take Wagner as an example. They take that guy with the thought that he is going to give them some help at the point, (much needed at the time) they stated this publically. Then, the guy plays in the summer and....they find out not only he CAN'T play the point, he has zero desire. The fact you don't find this out BEFORE THE FUCKING DRAFT is just beyond ridiculous.

Ironically, when the Cavs were sure Mark Price was not the answer at the point and thought that they needed to replace Bagley at the point, they drafted a 2-guard to play the point, a move that was seriously questioned at the time. The following year, Mark Price proved folks wrong that he was indeed the answer at the point, and the Cavs traded 2-guard as a point guard experiment after his first year averaging 7.3 points per game. That player ended up having a career average of 18ppg 9apg and was 2nd or 3rd team All-NBA five times at the point guard position.

Not really trashing your point about Wagner. Just saying that sometimes those "not-sure-the-conversion-to-point-guard" draft guesses work out. Sometimes they don't. And sometimes you give up too quickly on them.

BTW, KJ was taken at pick #7, Reggie Miller by the Pacers at #11.


The Cavs per usual were not great at that time. Several needs. You simply can not "guess" with that high a pick or "guess" what said player can do with that high a pick. Many guys you "knew" their NBA position left on the board.

Apples and Oranges to Price, especially at a height of 6 foot my ass. Gamble if you're really good and you're reching for a need. Gamble in the second round. Gambling in the top 10, when you could use just about anything is done by losers.

Not to mention with Wagner you were already gambling on with several issues, among them being inexperience and the fact he struggled to see 40%.

For every Price there's a hundred others that work out how everyone thinks they'll work out. And that's minus the guys that NBA GM's were to stupid to figure out what positions they could play before they selected them on their team. And by stupid I mean forgetting to sign Carlos Boozer, one of your only decent draft picks stupid.

Don't disagree with you Lead. However, my whole point was about Kevin Johnson, the college 2-guard from Cal the Cavs took a gamble on at the point (and were questioned about) and then shipped off when Price stepped up. Cavs picked up Larry Nance in the deal.
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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby SoulDawg74 » Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:18 am

e0y2e3 wrote:Amare didn't get along personally w/ Nash? Damn SD, you must know something no one else in the world knows.

And if Amare were in Cleveland and LBJ ditched in the manor he did he would be an even bigger scumbag, but we also would have a ring.


SD:

Would we., the Suns had two stars in addition to Amare and netted zip zero nada Bupkus .


,Didn't say he had a problem with Nash butt he didn't mesh with Shag with the best
ball distributor in the game , so those 20 second dribble downs where the offense stopped
would have affected his game even more than it hurt his former teammates.

Everybody had to defer to Lebitch first then their game second.

His self absorbed Curly Neal imitations especially in the clutch destroyed team flow and rythm
and kept teamates from getting off ,further solidifying the so called Role Playa stereotype subsrvient
stagnation of that so called "cough cough" offense.

The dude thru us under the bus , Jordan would have netted rings with last years roster
and arguably the last two years rosters , his agenda and the way this ended is unpardonable .





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Re: Looks like an S & T

Unread postby rk » Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:21 pm

Appears I'm in the minority but I'd much rather have the 2013 and 2015 picks than then 2011 pick.

We know 2011 is going to be a playoff year for the Heat. It's not that hard for a team to make the playoffs in the East and Lebron and Wade are going to get their wins even if they don't mesh (and Bosh will be there to applaud them).

But if they don't win the championship before 2013 it's going to be because they haven't meshed and haven't been able to play well enough together to get over the same hump Lebron didn't manage to get over in Cleveland. At that point one or two of them may opt out depending on how the new CBA is structured to get to a team that can afford more than 3 players.

So the later 1st rounders are a much better chance of being rebuild years for the Heat than next year.

But YMMV.
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