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Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby jb » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:16 pm

JB you need to put an asterisk on the former choice though b/c LeBron has no desire to be a historical afterthought or considered one of the pieces on a championship team. LeBron wants to be the man that brings home that bacon, sure he needs some help (all greats do) but he wants it to be on his shoulders. If he were to team up with Wade and Bosh there is no way history looks back on that championship (guarantee they'd get one) as LeBron's, it would be theirs.


Not I sir.

I think if LeBron James had the option of driving and dishing to Wade rather than actually taking the last shot, he'd be the happiest man on the planet. I really think dude would prefer to defer.


Also Reghi actually made a great point today in all the talk about Shaw ... concerned a Shaw hire turns LeBron off b/c ... LeBron needs an HC that was a former player etc...



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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:20 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
jb wrote:Side note - if the cavs were so hell bent on all resources for a 2010 run, explain the Congan Elgin Baylor.

D'Juan Blair was a decent contributor all season and we could have used bigs on D. Very comparable presence to JJ in his 2nd year, even iof they are very different players.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/dejuan_bl ... stats.html


The same reason everyone else in the first round of that draft avoided Blair: Injury risk. If his knees collapse, you're still on the book for his salary for at least two years. In an earlier age, some teams may have risked that. In the No Benjamins Association its 'welcome to lowball contract round, Dejuan'.


May have figured into it but the guaranteed money DS brought was the overriding factor IMO. Couldn't afford to tie up that money on a kid with no cartilage when you were hoping to sign a veteran or two that would get you to the finish line.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby jb » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:26 pm

peeker643 wrote:
Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
jb wrote:Side note - if the cavs were so hell bent on all resources for a 2010 run, explain the Congan Elgin Baylor.

D'Juan Blair was a decent contributor all season and we could have used bigs on D. Very comparable presence to JJ in his 2nd year, even iof they are very different players.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/dejuan_bl ... stats.html


The same reason everyone else in the first round of that draft avoided Blair: Injury risk. If his knees collapse, you're still on the book for his salary for at least two years. In an earlier age, some teams may have risked that. In the No Benjamins Association its 'welcome to lowball contract round, Dejuan'.


May have figured into it but the guaranteed money DS brought was the overriding factor IMO. Couldn't afford to tie up that money on a kid with no cartilage when you were hoping to sign a veteran or two that would get you to the finish line.



Ths stats link works fellas. ;-) ;) :wink:

82 games and playoffs fellas. Not one missed.

Maybe they shoulda got another opinion from a real doc, not the internets?
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:35 pm

jb wrote:Ths stats link works fellas. ;-) ;) :wink:

82 games and playoffs fellas. Not one missed.

Maybe they shoulda got another opinion from a real doc, not the internets?


You mean all the real docs who said he had no cartilage left in his knees?

I'm not disagreeing that Doc Hindsight's opinion is working in your favor, but there was enough of a there there for Blair to fall down the board.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:39 pm

You're all idiots, he has no ACLs.

The docs had and still have no idea what this is going to mean to his career.

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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby jb » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:41 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
jb wrote:Ths stats link works fellas. ;-) ;) :wink:

82 games and playoffs fellas. Not one missed.

Maybe they shoulda got another opinion from a real doc, not the internets?


You mean all the real docs who said he had no cartilage left in his knees?

I'm not disagreeing that Doc Hindsight's opinion is working in your favor, but there was enough of a there there for Blair to fall down the board.



Fall, si.

Past us for a project, nay.

And yes, I get the whole Spurs stash-the-project-for-cap-thing.

If it was win now, Blair coulda helped us, let alone over a project who will probably never play an NBA moment. cat didn't do shit even this year. Barely plays. Sayin'.


http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Chr ... enga-5493/

PS - u recall I botched for Blair and mocked cat real time, so there's no 20/20 here.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:44 pm

I can verify that you melted like FUDU in a dark neighborhood.

Either way, cat dropped, we tried to trade up in the second and get him where he had value, blah.

Reliving this is almost as exciting as "DS and JB discuss Danny Ferry: Volume 85 - Where We Say The Same Things Yet Again"

Ferry fucked up in 2005, should have gotten Gilbert and LBJ to buy into not blowing his wad, he blew it and he did a hell of a job recovering as much as he could from that. As a GM he did okay. Meh.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby jb » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:44 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:You're all idiots, he has no ACLs.

The docs had and still have no idea what this is going to mean to his career.

Geezes H Sasha Kaun.



No, they;re idiots. I never said anything about his acls / carteledge.

And FU. Aleksander was Academic All Big 12 in computer science.

And he can kick your ass at 6'11" 250.

IOW, he just might be Doc Proove.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:47 pm

jb wrote:
And FU. Aleksander was Academic All Big 12 in computer science.

And he can kick your ass at 6'11" 250.

IOW, he just might be Doc Proove.


:lmfao: x wow

That's just effing funny.

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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby peeker643 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:50 pm

ACLs/cartilage, tomato/green peppers.

Who gives a shit. Guys KNEES belong on a man JB's age or older.

And FTR I wanted him as well. But he wasn't a difference either way and the money was spent elsewhere where they thought it was wiser. Wasn't a case of not paying over slot for principle or lack of funds like the Tribe.

They went a different way. LBJ quits in Game 5 with or without Blair. As a 1 seed with or without Blair. I'll take Powe for the same money all day and twice on Tuesday.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:52 pm

Ya know, figuring out who has worse knees between Powe and Blair may be a statistical impossibility. I'd like to see a line from the Lead Man on career length between the two.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:53 pm

jb wrote:If it was win now, Blair coulda helped us, let alone over a project who will probably never play an NBA moment. cat didn't do shit even this year. Barely plays. Sayin'.


If it was 'win now', you have to take in account what happens if Blair winds up getting as much play time as Eyenga. Its what Lee said and what John said: Nobody knows what it means to play without any ACLs, and we're still in the realm of guaranteed money. Two and two put together equals TBO wasn't going to gamble TMLP's money on that roll of the dice.

And its all niggling anyways. Unless he somehow makes Roker a better coach and Lebron care enough for games 5 and 6, Blair's meaningless to the big picture.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby jb » Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:14 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:
jb wrote:If it was win now, Blair coulda helped us, let alone over a project who will probably never play an NBA moment. cat didn't do shit even this year. Barely plays. Sayin'.


If it was 'win now', you have to take in account what happens if Blair winds up getting as much play time as Eyenga. Its what Lee said and what John said: Nobody knows what it means to play without any ACLs, and we're still in the realm of guaranteed money. Two and two put together equals TBO wasn't going to gamble TMLP's money on that roll of the dice.

And its all niggling anyways. Unless he somehow makes Roker a better coach and Lebron care enough for games 5 and 6, Blair's meaningless to the big picture.



We can end agreeing there. Just noting that you don't put parsley on a full plate.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby ajunior148 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:41 pm

I still think he signs with us, so I'll give this a shot. My guess is a sign and trade with Bosh, and I'll give my reasons why I think it happens.

To be clear, I wouldn't be surprised to be wrong on this obviously as there are a lot of variables. But it is honestly what my goal would be if I were LBJ.

Toronto trades:

Chris Bosh - $17.5 Mill
Calderon - $9 Mill (They benched him for Jack so I keep reading they would like to dump him to save cash)

$26.5 Mill Total

Cleveland Trades:

Andy - $7 Mill
Wally S - $5 Mill (With 500K Buyout Option)
Delonte - $4.5 Mill (With 500K Buyout Option)
Hickson - $1.5 Mill
1st Round Pick - $1.5 Mill
Cash - $3 Mill
Telfair - $2.5 Mill

$24 Mill but costs Toronto $9 Mill this year

My reasoning:

4. Money - It's not very often that players leave money on the table, and going to Chicago will leave money on the table for both LBJ and Bosh. They won't get their max raises per year, and they'll get 5 years instead of 6. Granted LBJ gets a max again at the end of this (and likely Bosh) but there is some uncertainty on what that will be since the league will be under a new CBA at that time.

3. Legacy - There is a very legit shot that going to Chicago or Miami will limit what his legacy could be. Will people say after he wins a championship in a year that he is only able to win one with a Dream Team with Wade and Bosh? Wade will already have his ring and Bosh shouldn't be concerned with that, but the possibility is there for LBJ. Going to Chicago could cause the same story. Jordan didn't have to go team with Ewing and Miller to win a championship. This doesn't even consider the negative publicity of leaving the team would cause.

2. Ownership and Front Office - Gilbert has shown a willingness to do what it takes to succeed, and that will go a long way with LBJ. He is one of the top owners in the league. Chicago does not have the same benefit with their owner, and they have a Paxson in their front office. The guy wanted to fight his coach recently, in fact. Miami may have an upper hand here with Riley, but their owner does not have the reputation of Gilbert.

1. LBJ's Best Case Scenario - This is something that I have not seemed mentioned, but staying in Cleveland is the only chance he has at getting the best case scenario for LBJ. Granted, going to play for that Bulls roster with Bosh will give him multiple championships (even though I disagree on Deng playing SG), but where is the mountain to climb? Winning with that roster will not be worth what it would be to his legacy to take the Cavs roster with Bosh, and he has to think that it is doable with Bosh, a new coach, and an owner willing to spend truck loads of cash. Leaving will affect his legacy. I'm not certain how much, but it won't only be Cavs fans that remember.

Everything... the championships, his perception around the league and with the fans, the overall legacy he leaves... will be better if he accomplishes success in Cleveland instead of another city. Yes, there is more risk involved in comparison to the starting 5 Chicago will have the next 2 years, but LBJ has to believe he can win a title if he can convince Bosh to come to Cleveland and be his Pippen.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:27 pm

Feh, if LBJ stays and Bosh decides he wants to be S & T'd here something can be worked out, probably cheaper than that.

This isn't about thinking about what the Raptors would take in an S & T, because frankly they have zero leverage here.

This is about LBJ then finding out if he tickles Bosh's loins enough to get him to throw a hissy fit in Toronto.

Although, I must say, some posters on this board would just have a shit fit over our depth should that trade go through. Absolute conniptions.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby ajunior148 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:34 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:This is about LBJ then finding out if he tickles Bosh's loins enough to get him to throw a hissy fit in Toronto.


Truth, but a lot of my post is why LBJ should try like hell to get him to force his way here.

And really, it does make sense for Toronto to make a deal like the one I suggested, assuming they are certain they will lose Bosh for nothing if they don't.

Plus, this thread is about making a case for Cleveland, and I think I did that.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:36 pm

I actually think you're giving Toronto more then they will ever sniff.

And this thread isn't about making a case for Cleveland beyond anything but on the court according to Pupster.

You made the standard case all believe.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:41 pm

Oh and Wally S is not going to be traded by anyone, let alone the Cavs. He is probably done playing and we don't even have his bird rights anymore. He also would have to stay on the team that trades for him's roster for the entire year or David Stern would anally impale someone.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby ajunior148 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:44 pm

FTR, if LBJ can't convince a Bosh to come here then I think he is as good as gone. I just think that right now we may finally be in position to have some luck as far as our timing goes.

Bosh is very close to perfect as far as his game next to LBJ goes. He doesn't come off as caring about playing in a city like Cleveland, and his current team has admitted they'd be open to a sign and trade. They have two bad contracts that we could take back to make it worth their while, and add a defensive big man next to their offensive minded center. JJ would help add to the pot for them, but if we could do it cheaper then great.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby ajunior148 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:54 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:Oh and Wally S is not going to be traded by anyone, let alone the Cavs. He is probably done playing and we don't even have his bird rights anymore. He also would have to stay on the team that trades for him's roster for the entire year or David Stern would anally impale someone.


Wally S is not the hold up on this. If we don't have the rights to him we could do a sign and trade with Z then without the buyout. If not Z then someone not worthy of $5 million would certainly accept the benefit of their circumstance.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby ajunior148 » Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:57 pm

e0y2e3 wrote:I actually think you're giving Toronto more then they will ever sniff.

And this thread isn't about making a case for Cleveland beyond anything but on the court according to Pupster.

You made the standard case all believe.


I didn't see anyone make the argument that his best case scenario is in Cleveland, but admittedly I could have missed it. I forget stuff sometimes as well.

But I believe Pup started this thread to discuss his chances of staying, not only as a roster break down by each team in the league.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby diminishingskills » Wed Jun 30, 2010 9:26 am

jb wrote:John, I just canb't do the discussion / analysis on your plane. I just can't accept it as fixed and unmutable.

I actually agree with you more than you think / perceive, but when you try to force me into a box that looks at the issue your way, I can not.

You remind me of a zoological biologist who inists that a species is the best it can be because it's mutations wer ethe best possible. We don't know that just as we don;t know what Ferry;s real options were in either actuality or unexplored potential. In the stupid anology I've chosen that would even make Tree blush, we wouldn't know the possible genome codes not put together, or the mutation that was better got prematurely munched by a preditor while in the wrong place / wrong time prior to reproduction.

IOW, I don't know precisely what DF's choice set was, nor do you, nor perhaps, does DF know the unexplored. You may know what was public, but that's it. Not an insult. You follow this stuff more than anyone who isn't a cultivated on line ahole personality.;-)

Mmmkay, what I do know was that DF was always either a dollar early or a day short. He put together chicken nuggets with velveeta sauce, not viable chemistry, and reasons aren't excuses.


Genomes? Zoological biology? Velveeta? How the fuck did we get here?

Just bustin yer chops. Could there have been a trade that DF could have put together that would have landed better/more fittable talent? Dunno. DF never did take me up on my offer to have him run all potential trades by me.

But where we part company is your stance that because that mythical trade WASN'T made, then it somehow is a failing of DF's. You grade on a pretty tough curve there, considering that only 3% of the class can win. Not saying your scale is wrong, just that I don't agree with it. Last I checked, world's big enough for both viewpoints.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07! » Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:42 pm

In the final piece of his series, Chad Ford makes his case for LeBron staying put (Insider piece):
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/ ... avs-100630

Basically boils down to:
a) Cleveland is home
b) $30M more
c) Cavs do have trade assets so team will be better, especially when combined with...
d) Further development of JJ under the...
e) New head coach
f) More pressure everywhere else
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby CP » Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:56 pm

So... here's the next question... is Bulls' core w/ Nowitzki instead of Bosh as appealing? And can the Bulls work a S&T for Dirk? I don't see how they fit his starting salary in with LBJ's.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby Spin » Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:59 pm

Is Bosh really the player to put us over the top?

Who is our sharpshooter from the outside? Can AP score from the outside consistently?

Or do you move Bron to the 2?

Should we really be trying to pair Bron up with a tough outside shooter?
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Jun 30, 2010 4:31 pm

jb wrote:
JB you need to put an asterisk on the former choice though b/c LeBron has no desire to be a historical afterthought or considered one of the pieces on a championship team. LeBron wants to be the man that brings home that bacon, sure he needs some help (all greats do) but he wants it to be on his shoulders. If he were to team up with Wade and Bosh there is no way history looks back on that championship (guarantee they'd get one) as LeBron's, it would be theirs.


Not I sir.

I think if LeBron James had the option of driving and dishing to Wade rather than actually taking the last shot, he'd be the happiest man on the planet. I really think dude would prefer to defer.


Also Reghi actually made a great point today in all the talk about Shaw ... concerned a Shaw hire turns LeBron off b/c ... LeBron needs an HC that was a former player etc...



Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude.

To the blackboard and you must write "Reg never makes any good points" 500 times after school.

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JB Reghi's point was that he isn't so sure there is any real insight at all as to LeBron's needs and wants as a coach, and in his opinion LeBron isn't overly concerned about the HC aspect of his potential future team. To that I have to say Reghi makes a solid point. I'm no fan of his but I will give him his credit when due. The media an fans in general will react in any way possible to make it sound like any move the Cavaliers make is not good for retaining LeBron and any move any other team makes is a great move in attaining LeBron.

LeBron isn't saying anything, and that is smart IMO. While I want him to say something to the effects that he is staying the best thing for him is to STFU, and he is. So in regards to the HC search nobody has a clue on what LeBron thinks about that, not you not me and not any schmuck in the media.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:36 pm

The more I read Windy's tweets, the more I see Lebron staying for one simple reason:



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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby waborat » Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:47 pm

Madre Hill, Superstar wrote:The more I read Windy's tweets, the more I see Lebron staying for one simple reason:



The music during timeouts? :bag:
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby Orenthal » Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:55 pm

Finally getting into my wheelhose content wise...
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby FUDU » Wed Jun 30, 2010 5:57 pm

Criminals in this town used to believe in things...honor, respect.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby e0y2e3 » Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:15 pm

CP wrote:So... here's the next question... is Bulls' core w/ Nowitzki instead of Bosh as appealing? And can the Bulls work a S&T for Dirk? I don't see how they fit his starting salary in with LBJ's.


Yes it is just as appealing and yes pulling of said S & T would be damn hard, almost to a Dirk would have to chase rings and take a pay cut because he's sick of failing under the Cuban Plan hard.
“Irony is wasted on the stupid” - Oscar Wilde
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