Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

[Spin]

Could they defend Rondo or the other "modern" point guards? It seems there's a new breed of PG taking over the game. You have a hard time defending them, and if you put someone besides your PG on them or double them, they are deadly passers to wherever you left the weak matchup.

Not being smart, just askin'.

[waborat]

Could they defend Rondo or the other "modern" point guards? It seems there's a new breed of PG taking over the game. You have a hard time defending them, and if you put someone besides your PG on them or double them, they are deadly passers to wherever you left the weak matchup.

Not being smart, just askin'.

You're talking about the best PGs playing right now and there's always been great PGs that the Cavs (and many other teams) have matched up poor against due to either their size, speed, passing, shoooting or combination...

Going back to the late 80s era, you had Stockton, Thomas, Payton, Hardaway, Cheeks, DJ, KJ, MJax etc (not too forget Magic as well) and at different times we'd say the same thing and we still had one the best in Price & Brandon...

You know they don't grow on trees and they're hard to come by...

I'm sure many peeps around the country have said the same thing having to defend a certain 6'8" forward on the Cavs

[CP]

Assuming no additional trades, just handicapping the 6 teams that LBJ is going to meet with:

CHICAGO
PG Rose
SG ?
SF LeBron (via UFA)
PF Bosh (via UFA)(assuming he'll take the lower salary; if not, sub in Boozer or Amare here)
C Noah
Bench: Taj Gibson, Luol Deng

Have to renounce all potential own FAs to clear the cap room. Will have to sign guys at veteran minimum to fill out roster. No MLE since they are under the cap. Notably gone are Brad Miller, Kirk Hinrich, Flip Murray from playoff squad.

CLEVELAND CAVALIERS

PG Mo Williams
SG Anthony Parker
SF LeBron James
PF JJ Hickson
C Shaquille O'Neal
BENCH: Antawn Jamison, Anderson Varejao, Daniel Gibson, Jamario Moon, Leon Powe, Sebastian Telfair, Danny Green

MLE available. Rights to Sasha Kaun available. (Assumption made that O'Neal returns if LeBron does.)

@RicBucher: For those quibbling Chi can't do 2 max deals: They can, and will, move James Johnson, which will give them the needed room.

All right, blast me if you will, but I'm calling this whole thing ridiculous at this point. Bulls will have to give up something in yet another salary dump. If you are LeBron James, are you REALLY going to go to a team with a grand total of 6 players, yourself included with the other 9 signed guys on the roster earning nothing more than the minimum? Next year they will add a draft pick, the MLE and maybe the Bi-Annual.

Bosh/Rose or not, that team will take 2-3 offseasons to build. And one injury to Bosh or Rose and things get real hard. People need to remember that there are 5 teams with a ton of cap room (and enough room for maybe 8-10 max FAs) and nowhere near 8-10 guys worth max deals. Whichever teams don't get Wade, LBJ and Bosh will either overpay the remaining guys or spread their cash around to the guys who are left to try and fill their now-gutted teams.

I can't fathom that LeBron is going to want to sit on a team with him/Bosh/Rose/Noah and a bunch of stiffs. For the record, Bosh has 7 seasons in the NBA and has missed 65 games already (he's started more than 70 games exactly twice out of 7). Noah, also for the record, has never started (or played starter's minutes) for more than 55 games in a season.

[Madre Hill, Superstar]

Y'all can dig down the rosters all ya want, but its all perception at this point. If Bron thinks him, Porthos, Athos, and Aramis are gonna carry him to the promised land, then that's that.

[CP]

Or perhaps his long-term memory isn't that bad...

The 03-04 Cavaliers had LeBron, Boozer and a 28 yr old Z on it but had Ricky Davis and Jeff McKinnis playing 35+ minutes a night and a bench that featured Eric Williams, Mihm, Nailon, DaJuan Wagner, Battie, Newble, Diop, Kapono and JR Bremer. That team finished 35-47.

And then there was the 04-05 Cavaliers that went 42-40 and had Eric Snow, Tractor Traylor, Pavlovic, Lucious Harris and Co. coming off the bench (not to offend those Jiri Welsch and Scott Williams fans, but they barely played.

Z was an All-Star and Boozer was a 15-11 guy. Rose and Bosh have never been out of the first round of the playoffs. This crap that the media is pushing that a Bulls team of Rose/LBJ/Bosh/Noah and the waiver wire (plus a rookie head coach with no legit playing experience to draw from) is going to instantly be some kind of lock to win 7 titles in 10 years is laughable.

Doesn't mean LBJ isn't going to buy into it himself, but that team is going to add Bosh and LBJ and then have no legitimate shot at acquiring talent any time soon. It's going to be two years before Deng can be moved with that contract and they are going to have to max out Rose in 12/13... so the 2011 and 2012 offseasons are shot and they will have to pray that their $14 million expiring deal for Deng will be enough to go get a legitimate addon. I'm just not buying it; if I'm LBJ that's "been there done that" territory.

If he stays here and they don't make a single big move, there are $18 million in expiring deals here (Jamison/Moon) in 2011 and another $13 million in 2012 (Williams/Gibson). IMO, Chicago would have been better off maintaining the team it had and signing one max guy (LBJ) and allowing themselves an opportunity to improve next year.

[dmiles]

We of course have the popular perception that you need two hall-of-famers playing key roles to win a title. Again it doesn't always hold up but typically there are two top 50 type guys on the roster.

I am not convinced a team with a bench that freakin' weak can win titles. My point being maybe the rest of the roster or at least the 8-man rotation might be pretty important two. Is it 8-man or more like 10 these days? A quick glance at game 7 says 6-7 guys get a lot of minutes and others get some sprinkled in time. Is a team starting with 6 pretty damn good players good enough? What happens when at most of the key positions there is someone better? They obviously still have no match for Dewey. How do they hold against Wade/Amare?

The other thing I am not sure about is the coming negotiations with the union. If Stern and the owners are intent on bringing this thing back to reality, it's possible many teams going forward could be hamstrung cap wise so why not load up a team before that happens?

Does anyone miss the days when the stars didn't get along so well? Magic cloths-lining Isaiah his supposed close friend? Or the way the knicks used to abuse Jordan when he went into the lane. You never had the impression that the stars in those days were so kiss-kiss close. Maybe they were back then too, it's just a lot more in the open these days.

Be interesting to see how this pans out. NY won't be cheering LBJ so hard if he goes to Chicago. Wade might feel spurned as has been alluded to earlier.

[CP]

We of course have the popular perception that you need two hall-of-famers playing key roles to win a title. Again it doesn't always hold up but typically there are two top 50 type guys on the roster.

I am not convinced a team with a bench that freakin' weak can win titles.

I don't disagree at all. It's great to have multiple stars but there has to be a legit selection of role players on the team, and even if Chicago finds a way to go 7-8 deep for 2010-11, any injury at all and they are relying on someone like Flip Murray to play major playoff minutes on a team that expects to win it all.

I don't recall a team winning a NBA title with a bench of all minimum salaried guys. I can, however, name a ton of teams with 2-3 all-stars and not much else that didn't get it done.

[e0y2e3]

CP, you really need to stop smoking the homer weed.

Taj Gibson is a fine third big in this league and has only upside.

Deng is a perfectly fine starting two in this league as a complimentary player to LBJ.

The Bulls roster is a couple of three point specialists short of undeniably awesome, but a starting five of Bosh, LBJ, Noah, Rose, Deng laughs at any starting five the Cavs have ever put together (including your atrocious Boozer/Z/LBJ analogy).

BTW: these bull crap bench arguments are the same arguments everyone was preaching when the 07 Celtics were put together and about this years Lake Show (who 7-12 are just not good at all).

If you think our depth matters you need to put down the bong. We have no center, no starting SG, a 33 year old starting PF and combo guard who shrinks from the spotlight starting at the 1, etc. Our roster is a gawd damned mess when compared to the elite competition.

This is simple, if LBJ wants to stay loyal and home he stays, if he wants to win he goes to Chicago if he wants Bright Lights he goes to NYC.

Also, Bosh is not this soft pussy you are acting like he is, he struggled in Toronto because Colangelo put together the single worst starting five (defensively) I've ever seen in the NBA. Dewey would have given up a lot of points in the paint on that team and Noah is the perfect hustle/bang center combo to put w/ Bosh.

Pau Gasol is the best PF in the NBA right now and next Noah Bosh would challenge him.

(remember all of the "Pau is a soft pussy bullshit just a couple of years ago")

[e0y2e3]

Oh and the two headed grossness of Reinsdorph and Paxson is the only reason I can really see LBJ turning down the Bulls in favor of Gilbert. Has nothing to do w/ our roster, it will be loyalty and ownership.

[Larvell Blanks]

Sheridan wrote an article outlining 5 reasons why James may not sign w/ the Bulls. The downfall of the article is that it's a Chi v NY piece but does bring up interesting points regarding the Bulls.

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/knicks/post/_/id/133/lbj-free-agency-5-questions-on-bullsknicks-premise

[CP]

CP, you really need to stop smoking the homer weed.

Taj Gibson is a fine third big in this league and has only upside.

Deng is a perfectly fine starting two in this league as a complimentary player to LBJ.

The Bulls roster is a couple of three point specialists short of undeniably awesome, but a starting five of Bosh, LBJ, Noah, Rose, Deng laughs at any starting five the Cavs have ever put together (including your atrocious Boozer/Z/LBJ analogy).

BTW: these bull crap bench arguments are the same arguments everyone was preaching when the 07 Celtics were put together and about this years Lake Show (who 7-12 are just not good at all).

If you think our depth matters you need to put down the bong. We have no center, no starting SG, a 33 year old starting PF and combo guard who shrinks from the spotlight starting at the 1, etc. Our roster is a gawd damned mess when compared to the elite competition.

This is simple, if LBJ wants to stay loyal and home he stays, if he wants to win he goes to Chicago if he wants Bright Lights he goes to NYC.

Also, Bosh is not this soft pussy you are acting like he is, he struggled in Toronto because Colangelo put together the single worst starting five (defensively) I've ever seen in the NBA. Dewey would have given up a lot of points in the paint on that team and Noah is the perfect hustle/bang center combo to put w/ Bosh.

Pau Gasol is the best PF in the NBA right now and next Noah Bosh would challenge him.

(remember all of the "Pau is a soft pussy bullshit just a couple of years ago")

Where did I say Bosh was soft? All I said was that he's missed a decent amount of games in his career and hasn't gotten out of the first round of the playoffs? I said nothing negative about Bosh; I'd love to have him in Cleveland. All I said was that he misses games and that becomes trouble if you have no depth.

Deng is no starting 2, particularly on a team where the 1 and 3 aren't the world's greatest outside shooters. He's a 3. You have nothing to back that up.

Speaking of something you can't back up, your slobbering over Taj Gibson as anything more than a role player at this point in your career qualifies. Maybe's a decent backup 4, but at 6-9 he isn't even at Varejao's level and can't play the 5.

You're missing the point re: the bench. This bench has the potential to be worse than all the teams you're talking about. They can't spend a single penny over the vet minimum for any of those guys; no bonuses, no incentives. Straight vet minimum. In a league that craves outside shooting, you're going to get 2-3 of them for nothing? You bring up this year's Lakers as an example but you're not getting Odom, Shannon Brown, Vujacic, Farmar and Walton for the vet minimums and nothing more. You're getting a bunch of marginal guys who wouldn't make a real team's rotation.

[e0y2e3]

Deng made 39% of his threes this year, had an eFG of 48% and has a very good mid-range jumper (one of the better in the league). Guy is a long athlete that can shoot over people and he would play the 2 as a starting player on at team w/ LBJ and Rose. His biggest issues at the 2 would be D but LBJ's flexibility would let him work around that. Also, you can say what you want about LBJ's 3 point shot, but he attempts and makes enough to be in the top five of the league in amde threes, he is good enough w/ that shot now to at least spred out a D some. I do agree that they need another three point shooter on that roster, but they can find one. LBJ allows guys to play a bit out of position (just like Ron Ron and Ariza would have been twos here).

Deng a better athlete than the corpse of Anthony Parker, who also is possibly a 3 at this point in his career.

Moon is a three at this point but we trotted him out there at the 2, etc.

LBJ let's you do that.

And if you watched Taj play he is a fine 3rd big off the bench, plays good D, hustles and blocks some shots. Not Odom caliber, but certainly up there w/ the Celtics who had the midgets Powe and Davis behind KG and Perk in 07-08 and back then, well, no one knew if either of them could play a lick and they both are VERY height challenged.

And are you really going to trump Brown, Walton, and Farmar as good? Wow. Brown was just grabbed for the vet min, Farmar hasn't really developed in ages, etc....

Two vets decide to play for the min and they are fine.

And again, that entire core is 25 and under.

Homer Glasses.

LBJ, Rose, Bosh, Noah and Deng w/ clowns is WAY better basketball wise then the regular season superstars we currently have, period.

[Orenthal]

Bosh settles for lower then the max? Anyone know what those cap holds are for their empty roster spots?

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=16620

Pretty good piece, the "almost" offer two max salaries is pretty damn close to a legit two max salaries. Forget Bosh, Chicago has a handful of guys they could offer a FA deal to that would still make it Chicago all the way. Only loyalty can stop Chicago.

[daddywags]

OJ - If the number in that article is correct, then hoopshype salary page for the Bulls is all screwed up. I get more than $26 million for the five guys under contract. In any event, the writer mentions the cap hold for the other 7 guys on the 12 man roster but then doesn't bother to include that amount in the calculations. Minimum league salary for 7 guys has to be somewhere in the vicinity of $2.5 million. I guess that's the reason nothing can happen until 7/7 - nobody will know exactly how much cap room any team has until then. Even then, though, we've got to be careful not to forget the "little things" like cap holds for minimum salaries for ghost players.

[Madre Hill, Superstar]

LBJ, Rose, Bosh, Noah and Deng w/ clowns is WAY better basketball wise then the regular season superstars we currently have, period.

They'll be better than regular season superstars, they'll be Regular Season Superfriends.

Postseason, not so much.

Stack Howard, Perk/KG, Bynum/Gasol, and KD/InsertBigHere in the paint and watch them fold in six. Again. When they get a veteran presence and a coach who has more on his resume than 'make Doc Rivers look like a defensive genius' then maybe they're in the dicussion with Kobe and the Three Amgios. Not as much now.

[CP]

...

Deng a better athlete than the corpse of Anthony Parker, who also is possibly a 3 at this point in his career.

Moon is a three at this point but we trotted him out there at the 2, etc.

...

And are you really going to trump Brown, Walton, and Farmar as good? Wow. Brown was just grabbed for the vet min, Farmar hasn't really developed in ages, etc....

Two vets decide to play for the min and they are fine.

And again, that entire core is 25 and under.

Homer Glasses.

LBJ, Rose, Bosh, Noah and Deng w/ clowns is WAY better basketball wise then the regular season superstars we currently have, period.

Well if you said it then it must be true. Who needs support for what you're saying? That Moon and Parker aren't really fits at the 2 somehow doesn't make Deng a fit at the and at least the two of them combined are nowhere near the financial albatross through 2014 that Deng will be.

If you think Farmar, Walton and Shannon Brown are bad, wait until you'd see the bench that the Bulls will have to assemble. Brown was available as a mid-season waiver claim and just opted out of his deal and is going to earn well more than the minimum.

You can call it "Homer Glasses" all you want but that doesn't make it true. All I'm saying is that the Bulls team as they are proposing to construct it will have a tough time gutting out playoff series and is no lock to win anything. They were an 8 seed who just jettisoned 75% of their playoff roster, their coach and their 1st round pick. They hired a rookie head coach, their owner is a cheap bastard and they have a contractual albatross. Oh, and that star 21 yr old PG is going to want to get paid in a big way in 2013. Hope the MLE for 2 yrs and some low draft picks are enough to net them something or they're going to be treading in some thin water with that roster.

[e0y2e3]

CP, let me type this slowly for you:

LBJ let's you play three types at the 2, Parker, Moon and the pursuit of Ariza and Artest all went down because of this.

Deng's problem is D at the 2 against quicker SGs and that can easily be covered w/ LBJ.

But then again, if I said it it must be true, just like you comparing Andy and Taj Gibson when you should be comparing our starting center at the moment (Andy) to Noah and Taj to JJ Hickson.

Again, keep on saying things like "Taj sucks because he is 6'9" though.

Watch the games, Rose is special, Noah is a beast, Bosh can be Pau, etc.

Shannon Brown started getting time last year after being dumped three times and was paid poop. He got run before Farmar last year because Farmar sucks. Farmar and Brown both improved this year for title #2 but both are dime a dozen scrap heap players (unless you care about Brown's vertical).

If they get two guys to show up PJ Brown style they are in great shape, I openly admitted this and the Lake Show could give them some problems, but they already are one of the two best starting lineups in the league if LBJ and Bosh show up, period and have a solid third big to come off the bench. Only need two more decent players to have a bench in the playoffs.

Hell, just look at this years Celtics, Tony Allen finally developed after being HORRID for two years and was pretty much their only back-up wing player.

This is the exact same shit that was spewed about the Celtics and Lake Show, exact same.

And, chris, what does Rose wanting paid in 2013 matter? Seriously? Reinsdorph already said he'd go over the luxury tax this week and in case if you missed it two of the more important players in the finals (Sheed and Ron Ron) were MLE pickups. Guys like JJ Reddick, Josh Childress et al, will probably also go for the MLE this year. Two MLE additions is pretty huge and do we need to go down the list of late draft picks providing good minutes off the bench?

I get what your points are here, but you are pretending like just about every contender out there wasn't built from the Top down and didn't have serious bench concerns at one point or another. The Cavs used the depth excuse to cover up for a lack of legit star power, the real contenders are all MAD top heavy though (and more than one player top heavy).

And, of course, w/ a bunch of 20-25 year olds if you need to suck some extra minutes out of them for a playoff run I'm pretty sure you can manage, just look at those awesome PG minutes the Celtics got off the bench behind Rondo this year (save 1 game from Nate).

They become the instant favorites in the East.

The Celtics are going to take a step back this year, Orlando is a mess and Bosh would beat Rashard like the bitch he is in the same fashion KG and Pau did in the last two playoffs.

Oh and who gives a fuck if Deng is overpaid? Completely irrelevant in the NBA w/ the MLE available.

[Orenthal]

I was thinking the same things Wags, but like you said until 7/1, we don't have all the facts.

Is Derek Rose the same player when he doesn't have the ball in his hands 80% of the time? I would have said Noah would be better no doubt with James on board, but Bosh takes any touches he would have had on offense, and Rose was already a good drive and kick distributor. This is very much unlike the Cavaliers where James was the only real distributor. Noah was able to score on the Cavaliers during the playoffs easy enough.

Lots of questions, not even close to a sure thing.

[e0y2e3]

I was thinking the same things Wags, but like you said until 7/1, we don't have all the facts.

Is Derek Rose the same player when he doesn't have the ball in his hands 80% of the time? I would have said Noah would be better no doubt with James on board, but Bosh takes any touches he would have had on offense, and Rose was already a good drive and kick distributor. This is very much unlike the Cavaliers where James was the only real distributor. Noah was able to score on the Cavaliers during the playoffs easy enough.

Lots of questions, not even close to a sure thing.

Pau and Bynum share enough and Bosh is a very efficient scorer, won't affect a hustle guy like Noah's touches.

Only question is does LBJ let Rose handle the ball and become what he can be off the ball.

Big question though and I am sure one that will play into LBJ's thought process while deciding.

[waborat]

Can anyone make a case?

Mav Carter might?

Interesting article by Wojo:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=A ... ower062810

[CP]

CP, let me type this slowly for you:

LBJ let's you play three types at the 2, Parker, Moon and the pursuit of Ariza and Artest all went down because of this.

Obviously not typed slowly enough to understand that let's is the shortened version of "let us" and that lets is the verb you wanted to use. I'm not all about grammar policing but you're the one acting like someone else is slow so let's not let those points get missed, lest one lets you make an unearned point.

Deng's problem is D at the 2 against quicker SGs and that can easily be covered w/ LBJ.

I agree. Signed, Mike Brown and the Cavs 2s.

But then again, if I said it it must be true, just like you comparing Andy and Taj Gibson when you should be comparing our starting center at the moment (Andy) to Noah and Taj to JJ Hickson.

Or I typed too quickly to make clear I was trying to compare Andy at that time in his progression to Taj Gibson. For the record, let's not forget that Shaq returning as the starting center is a possibility if LBJ re-ups, which lets Andy return as the 3rd big. And Andy as the 3rd big > Taj Gibson as the 3rd big.

Again, keep on saying things like "Taj sucks because he is 6'9" though.

And where did I say a single thing about Taj Gibson's height? I called him a role player. He was a 9-7.5 guy despite starting 70 games. He could be Muresan and he's still a role player. Let's not put lipstick on a pig here.

Watch the games, Rose is special, Noah is a beast, Bosh can be Pau, etc.

I did. He is, he was against Cleveland and he might be. Point?

Shannon Brown started getting time last year after being dumped three times and was paid poop. He got run before Farmar last year because Farmar sucks. Farmar and Brown both improved this year for title #2 but both are dime a dozen scrap heap players (unless you care about Brown's vertical).

It took development in their system for both of them. Scrap heap young guys don't usually contribute in year 1.

If they get two guys to show up PJ Brown style they are in great shape, I openly admitted this and the Lake Show could give them some problems, but they already are one of the two best starting lineups in the league if LBJ and Bosh show up, period and have a solid third big to come off the bench. Only need two more decent players to have a bench in the playoffs.

Difference between taking reduced money as a veteran to join a championship-level team (many instances of this, I agree) and taking nothing more than the league vet minimum. This isn't like getting guys to take a portion of the MLE. This is bare minimum. Chicago will have to wait until next offseason to get the MLE, so that's out for this year. Also, PJ Brown was in semi-retirement and only had to be convinced to play half a season when the Celtics grabbed him. Maybe that does or doesn't happen for Chicago but that shouldn't be a factor on whether LBJ signs there.

Hell, just look at this years Celtics, Tony Allen finally developed after being HORRID for two years and was pretty much their only back-up wing player.

Yes, he was bad and yes he started to develop. Allen was a #1 pick (25th overall) in 2004. Which mean he finally started to develop in YEAR SIX not year two. Let's not lose the difference. And, since the Bulls dumped their #1 this year in the Hinrich trade, they can think about starting that process next year, assuming they don't trade that too in a desperate attempt for a band-aid.

And, chris, what does Rose wanting paid in 2013 matter? Seriously? Reinsdorph already said he'd go over the luxury tax this week and in case if you missed it two of the more important players in the finals (Sheed and Ron Ron) were MLE pickups. Guys like JJ Reddick, Josh Childress et al, will probably also go for the MLE this year. Two MLE additions is pretty huge and do we need to go down the list of late draft picks providing good minutes off the bench?

And the Bulls could do that next offseason with their MLE. Not now. All I'm saying is that since they built their team non-traditionally (loading up on contracts all in the same year at the expense of most of their current roster), they will be unable to do much of the maneuvering most teams do to tweak their roster. And since they aren't signing the MLE guys until next offseason, it will be months before they could start flipping them for other players. Reinsdorf also has a reputation of being cheap, and there's a legit argument about what role he had in breaking up the Bulls dynasty.

I get what your points are here, but you are pretending like just about every contender out there wasn't built from the Top down and didn't have serious bench concerns at one point or another. The Cavs used the depth excuse to cover up for a lack of legit star power, the real contenders are all MAD top heavy though (and more than one player top heavy).

I'm just saying that I'm not buying that they are all of the sudden the odds-on favorites to win the East. Boston has maneuvering it can do, as can Orlando. Milwaukee is improving as well.

Others might not like it, but I am glad you are back; it was less chaotic and interesting for me to lurk (and sometimes post).

[peeker643]

It's been said multiple times but if LeBron wants to keep his family friends within reach, not be bothered by an invasive media and can't bear the thought of breaking ties with this area then he will stay.

Not before he secures his pound of flesh and gets guarantess that Dan Gilbert will turn the world upside down to win here.

If LBJ wants to win now he'll end up in Chicago.


I really believe that's all it comes down too. All this ancillary info regarding owners and friends and WWW plays a part, but end of the day it gets back to the above.

Put the 10 stories per day to bed. James will make his decision after carefully weighing his options. DO NOT underestimate the safety and security his kids have at this point and that Savannah has as well. Most people wouldn't know her if she walked up to them right now. Is she ready for that to change? Is he? Does LBJ want his kids being chased around like Cody and Cassidy Gifford?

It's gotten a lot closer than it was a month ago. I know people with no kids/wife/etc may look past it, but if the guy is any type of family man it will be a huge consideration. Money doesn't by peace of mind and the comfort the guy feels where he is. And security guards aren't the samepeace of mind.

I still think it comes down to that call.

[CP]

Can anyone make a case?

Mav Carter might?

Interesting article by Wojo:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=A ... ower062810

Sounds like Wojo is a bit frustrated at being their mouthpieces for all these stories. His stuff is great to read, but obviously relies on the Maverick Carter and World Wide Wes types around the league for sourcing.

I'm wondering if some of the "insiders" who keep breaking this info are starting to get tired on how they are being used by their sources to advance agendas.

[FUDU]

...and LeBron already has the money issue taken care of Peek, so you're right IMO the family angle will play some sort of legitimate role in his final decision.

Bottom line still remains that it is his decision and he has shown in his short time as a pro/man that he makes his own decisions AND the fact that only LeBron knows what happened in the final hours of the season and whether or not game 5 is a pimple on his ass or a birth mark on his forehead.

[CP]

@STEIN_LINE_HQ Most creative FA story I've heard today? Rockets apparently planning to send three-truck caravan ferrying fans to their free-agent meetings about 5 hours ago

If I'm any of these free agents, I tell Houston and their traveling circus to stay the f away from me. Bad enough with the horde of media, now you're going to start bringing vans full of Texans around? And I'm supposed to feel like that's a good thing?

As we've been writing all season, Bosh is Rockets' No. 1 sign-and-trade target. If Bosh grants HOU sitdown, he'll be greeted by adoring fans about 5 hours ago

I'm trying to figure out who has the best S&T for Bosh if he goes that route. HOU? CLE DAL?

Rockets have Jared Jeffries' expiring deal of $6.9 mil. Battier is also an expiring but I can't see them moving him. Dallas has Dampier's $13 mil expiring deal.

[peeker643]

I thought it was funny that LBJ told the Knicks they were playing an away game and had to come see him. Killed the whole Trump/Baldwin/Chris Rock red carpet, wine and dine cock and balls plan.

[waborat]

It's been said multiple times but if LeBron wants to keep his family friends within reach, not be bothered by an invasive media and can't bear the thought of breaking ties with this area then he will stay.

No doubt...

Hell, I've been saying the same things for the past 2 years that it could easily come down to family, friends and the big mansion...

Just found it interesting on how much power Team L might end up losing with WWW's agendas...

Thought Wojo finally spun it in a lil differnet direction for a change, is all

[peeker643]

It's been said multiple times but if LeBron wants to keep his family friends within reach, not be bothered by an invasive media and can't bear the thought of breaking ties with this area then he will stay.

No doubt...

Hell, I've been saying the same things for the past 2 years that it could easily come down to family, friends and the big mansion...

Just found it interesting on how much power Team L might end up losing with WWW's agendas...

Thought Wojo finally spun it in a lil differnet direction for a change, is all

I hear ya. I read 'em all too. Mostly because I want to see how people will spin what they say today after the decision is made though.

I just think the decision process, when you peel back all the bullshit, isn't that much different than the choices many people make when determining where they want to practice their profession. A lot more zeros and incidentals and benes, but for the vast majority family, kids/comfort/security plays a huge role.

* Security and comfort, in this case, have nothing to do with money. It's lifestyle, it's going out in public to the barbershop, going shopping, taking the kids out, etc.

[waborat]

It's been said multiple times but if LeBron wants to keep his family friends within reach, not be bothered by an invasive media and can't bear the thought of breaking ties with this area then he will stay.

No doubt...

Hell, I've been saying the same things for the past 2 years that it could easily come down to family, friends and the big mansion...

Just found it interesting on how much power Team L might end up losing with WWW's agendas...

Thought Wojo finally spun it in a lil differnet direction for a change, is all

I hear ya. I read 'em all too. Mostly because I want to see how people will spin what they say today after the decision is made though.

I just think the decision process, when you peel back all the bullshit, isn't that much different than the choices many people make when determining where they want to practice their profession. A lot more zeros and incidentals and benes, but for the vast majority family, kids/comfort/security plays a huge role.

* Security and comfort, in this case, have nothing to do with money. It's lifestyle, it's going out in public to the barbershop, going shopping, taking the kids out, etc.

Yep, no more sitting at Cracker Barrel eatin grits & fried apples...

Does NY even have Cracker Barrels?

[peeker643]

Yep, no more sitting at Cracker Barrel eatin grits & fried apples...

Does NY even have Cracker Barrels?

On that I'm not sure.

But it does bring me to one of my favorite culinary delights: Low Country shrimp w/grits.

Good Lawd is that tremendous.

It's a "Must-Do" when I'm in Charleston.

Of course the price probably just tripled. Thanks BP.

[jb]

First of all, I want to answer Pup's initial question and give him one reason: I think Delonte West would make a heck of a Step Dad / neighbor.

That said, can Pup and DS both be correct?

Could Bron's "I'm a partner in running the franchise when it is convenient, just a ball player shunning all responsibility when that's convenient" self-serving philosophy toward his professional life have very much helped create the extremely difficult situation DF worked within, not to mention TMLP probably driving him nuts with his roto-world ideas?

I completely subscribe to that POV.

Were MOST of DF's moves rational? I agree with that as well.

Does that absolve DF from any resposnibility related to outcomes? I part company Johnny. I hjave to see Pup's point that at the end of the day, DF called the shots and while most were reasoned and well intended within a tough set of cirsumstances, the real result is that he created a strange brew that never mixed right when Ball Don't Lie (TM). I do know good players and better fits moved during DF's tenure, and he missed out. I can't ignore that entirely.

In the end, however, the person most respnsible for Bron leaving is....... Bron. Clearly, he doesn't see himself as having skin in this game when it comes down to this being a bianary decision. Not up to me to take a leadership position to put the team around me. Up to me to take care of Bron while others' try to do it for me.

Kobe reupped and reupped and reupped. Never a question of stability of whom the Lakers' FA's (inclu Phil) would be playing with. But Mr Diva Burlesque Dancer helped piss in the Cheerios more than anyone.

Wish he'd stay, but if he chooses his right under the CBA - this is America - my accountability list is pretty short, and pretty balanced. Most on LeBron, and the rest on DF shots not hitting, as DS says. The dif is I just can't give the "oh well, no guaraentees in sports" free pass. That's why they count up W's and L's: accountability. Correct me if I misrepresent, John.

Side note - if the cavs were so hell bent on all resources for a 2010 run, explain the Congan Elgin Baylor.

D'Juan Blair was a decent contributor all season and we could have used bigs on D. Very comparable presence to JJ in his 2nd year, even iof they are very different players.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/dejuan_bl ... stats.html

[aoxo1]

jb, you mean there wasn't a question of who the Lakers' FAs would be playing with... except for that long flirtation with the Clippers. Right?

[jb]

Can anyone make a case?

Mav Carter might?

Interesting article by Wojo:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=A ... ower062810

Nothing short of fascinating.

I believe that Bron has no loyalty to C-town per se. I believe he has the Spin mentality that Akron is an island in NEO. But if this comes down to Bron being Nino Brown to Mav as G Money ?

Wow. major drama play here.

Am I wrong to wish WWW would get hit by an El Train? Or offed PNG by Stern an dthe owners who see him for the ramora he is?

[jb]

jb, you mean there wasn't a question of who the Lakers' FAs would be playing with... except for that long flirtation with the Clippers. Right?

I dunno ax. It was the freakin' Clips. I just never bought in, but I didn't have the emotional investment I do to this one. I always bthought it was a ploy. AFAIC, Kobe is cemented in purple & gold and always has been, even when he went through his long petulant period.

[jb]

Could they defend Rondo or the other "modern" point guards? It seems there's a new breed of PG taking over the game. You have a hard time defending them, and if you put someone besides your PG on them or double them, they are deadly passers to wherever you left the weak matchup.

Not being smart, just askin'.

Also, the modern rules changes are stacked to help the PG's.

[waborat]

I completely subscribe to that POV.

It's good to see the GOTLPD finally released ya

Welcome back

[jb]

I completely subscribe to that POV.

It's good to see the GOTLPD finally released ya

Welcome back

Man, looooong week of travel and a very hectic weekend. And yet, very little changes here.

I's nice. Like bad food at McDonalds.

[e0y2e3]

If you are banking on Shaq returning and that making our roster, well, that kinda speaks for itself CP.

Sure Andy is better as a third big at this point, so is Shaq and so is JJ. We have one starting front court player. 1.

[CP]

If you are banking on Shaq returning and that making our roster, well, that kinda speaks for itself CP.

Sure Andy is better as a third big at this point, so is Shaq and so is JJ. We have one starting front court player. 1.

Clearly you argue better than you read. Big difference in assuming the guy is returning vs. banking on that return.

If anything, I am more hopeful that Kaun will be a better backup center at this point in his career than Z was at last year.

The difference between Noah and Varejao hasn't been all that big over the long haul. Both are young (25 & 27 respectively), both rebound the ball well. Noah is a better shot blocker but Varejao is generally more active defensively. If you want to say that Noah's a beast based on the Cleveland series, ok. But there's a strong argument that he's no more a starting 5 in the NBA than Varejao might be.

I find this perspective interesting. Not but a couple months ago, Hickson is a rising player at the 4, Jamison is a 20 pt scorer and Varejao is a contender for 6th man and All-NBA Defense. Now apparently none of them can play.

[diminishingskills]

Does that absolve DF from any resposnibility related to outcomes? I part company Johnny. I hjave to see Pup's point that at the end of the day, DF called the shots and while most were reasoned and well intended within a tough set of cirsumstances, the real result is that he created a strange brew that never mixed right when Ball Don't Lie (TM). I do know good players and better fits moved during DF's tenure, and he missed out. I can't ignore that entirely.

Jim, lemme ask you: who were those better fits that moved during the Golden Age (excuse me, the Wine and Golden Age) of the Balded One? And if those players moved in trades, what assets did the Cavs have to make a comparable/better offer? e.g., if we go back a couple of years to when the Grizzlies were shopping Pau Gasol, what assets did the Cavs have at the time to get the Griz GM to even take their calls? I'm not seeing it, but can be persuaded.

Wish he'd stay, but if he chooses his right under the CBA - this is America - my accountability list is pretty short, and pretty balanced. Most on LeBron, and the rest on DF shots not hitting, as DS says. The dif is I just can't give the "oh well, no guaraentees in sports" free pass. That's why they count up W's and L's: accountability. Correct me if I misrepresent, John.

That's ultimately the standard I use in judging the performance of a GM -- whether he made the most with what he had, and given the constraints placed upon him from external sources. Not wins and losses per se. (Agree with your point about that being the ultimate standard by which most people judge.)

Thing is, if you take the view that only titles matter, then only one GM does his job in a given year. I can't buy that for a dollar, for two reasons:

1. It's possible for the GM to make the best moves he can, and still see his team fall short;

2. There's too much luck in a given season for that judgment to make sense.

Look at this NBA season. The title came down to four points. Four fucking points. I can't buy that Mitch Kupchak is a genius, and Danny Ainge is a schlub, based on four points. (And you're not saying that, I realize; I'm exaggerating a bit to make my point.) It's Crash Davis 101. One extra hit per week -- a gork, a groundball with eyes, a dying quail-- and you're in Yankee Stadium. A couple of plays go the other way, and the Cs are celebrating their second title in three years. And I can't buy that had those couple of plays gone the other way, then Ainge would have been the genius and Kupchak the schlub. Yet a lot of fans believe exactly that. Makes no sense.

When Danny Ferry took the job in 2005, he had one asset: LeBron James. He also had a lot of cap space, but unfortunately the best players were not coming here. (Have to ask: given his knee problems, does Michael Redd staying in Milwaukee qualify as a "sometimes the best moves are the ones you don't make"?) He had no other young talent. He had no picks in the 2005 draft, and also didn't have a pick in the 2007 draft, thanks to his predecessor's fascination with Jiri Welsch. (I'll wait here for a moment while you all grab a drink, to wash the taste of vomit out of your mouth.) And the team plays in a city that (unfairly, but still) is perceived as America's armpit, and that has shitty weather during most of the NBA season. If I'm a free agent, and behind door number one I have Dwyane Wade, Pat Riley, and a bunch of thongs on 85 degree South Beach ... and then behind door number two I have a possibly-leaving LeBron James, a rookie coach and GM, and old women in babushkas scurrying home before the latest band of lake effect hits ... and bear in mind that unlike every poster here, I have zero emotional attachment to Cleveland or its sports teams ... which will I choose?

Ultimately, the one thing Ferry did have was TMLP's millions. And he used that asset well. He got Mo Williams out of Milwaukee for nothing. He got Shaq out of the desert for nothing. He got Tawn out of DC for nothing. Yeah, ultimately putting those ingredients together was like pouring the Godiva chocolate reduction over the aged medium-rare porterhouse. But that is 20-20 hindsight stuff.

Bottom line, I believe Ferry was doing the best with what he had. I think his moves made sense. And I don't see what he realistically could have done better. If the only standard is "did he win a sausage?" then we're in Underpants Gnomes territory. Phase 1 is where the Cavs were at the time. Phase 3 is a title. And Phase 2 is a giant question mark, where Ferry (if he were REALLY a good GM) would Jedi mind-trick the Suns into giving up Amare, or the Griz into giving up Gasol, or whatever other star-heist you can imagine. I don't think that's a realistic metric. YMMV.

In the end, however, the person most respnsible for Bron leaving is....... Bron. Clearly, he doesn't see himself as having skin in this game when it comes down to this being a bianary decision. Not up to me to take a leadership position to put the team around me. Up to me to take care of Bron while others' try to do it for me. Kobe reupped and reupped and reupped. Never a question of stability of whom the Lakers' FA's (inclu Phil) would be playing with. But Mr Diva Burlesque Dancer helped piss in the Cheerios more than anyone.

You know, I was 100% wrong on this point. I thought that the Cavs could have a title season while LeBron's three-ring FA circus was in full play. Uh uh. It turned out to be too distracting ... and the uncertainty over Bron's future caused other players to shy away from coming to Cleveland. Not saying that Ron-Ron would have joined Bron-Bron, but the odds would have been a lot higher had Bron extended his contract for X years before the season. But hey, we DID get Anthony Parker. (Where's that puking icon now that I need it?)

Side note - if the cavs were so hell bent on all resources for a 2010 run, explain the Congan Elgin Baylor. D'Juan Blair was a decent contributor all season and we could have used bigs on D. Very comparable presence to JJ in his 2nd year, even iof they are very different players.

I'll explain the thinking, but understand that I don't necessarily agree with the thinking. IOW, I'm gonna argue that we need to treat the kid as an orphan, even if he did off his parents.

First-round picks get guaranteed money. Second-round picks do not. I don't think the FO liked Blair enough, or thought he would be enough of a difference maker in the 2009-10 season, to commit money to him. Especially when his salary would effectively be doubled because of the luxury tax. And especially when (as you point out) the Cavs already had a similar player in Hix. Honestly, I don't think DF ever thought that Kid Congo would play a day in the Association. I'll bet he tried like hell to trade out of that spot. Unable to, he settled for the next best alternative: draft a guy who wouldn't play, certainly not in 2009-10; meaning that no guaranteed contract would be signed; meaning that there'd be money to go after a guy like a Jamario Moon or a Leon Powe (i.e., a guy more likely to make a 2009-10 impact).

Again, not saying I agree with the overall strategy. But Kid Congo over Blair doesn't contradict the idea that 2009-10 was a "pull out the stops" year.

[e0y2e3]

Geezes man, seriously you are taking homer to new extremes now. Your initial analysis showed Shaq as our center, he is not our center and most probably will not be. Even if he is Shaq is closer to dead then good at this point and should probably be a second center.

Andy is not anywhere near Noah as a starting center in the NBA. Noah was a beast all through last year while healthy and actually started to make the leap against the Celtics the year before in the playoffs. If you haven't followed to Bulls close enough to know that Noah against us was Noah whenever healthy last year that is your problem. I agree that if Andy is your first big off the bench that gives your team a very nice advantage, unfortunately he's not that on this roster at the moment.

I never bothered to mention Jamo because he is an average starting four in this league, unfortuantely defensively he is also going to get bitched by Pau, Bosh and even old ass KG. He was brought onto this roster for a one year run as a complimentary option to Shaq, not as a long term piece, which is why I was went ape shit when we ended up w/ him instead of Amare at the dead-line.

I also would like a show of hands from anyone on this board that has called JJ Hickson a rising star. JJ Hickson is a quick hustle player that runs the P & R well, nothing more at this point. He's young and has potential to be more, but right now he's as one dimensional as Damon Jones.

Either way, you're making mention to our front court depth and discussing players like Shaq who just ended a horrible experience here and Sasha fucking Kaun.

If you want to talk about rolling the dice and hoping for vet min players you may also want to say the exact same when even bothering to mention the name Sasha fucking Kaun.

You're on tilt man, freaking out about CB stating in the same manor he has started 100s of times Cle was the leader for LBJ that now Miami and Chicago are per his sources after the summit that may or may not have happened, refusing to acknowledge things like Noahs entire season last year, mentioning names like Shaq and Shasha Kaun when discussing our roster, mention JJ as a "rising star" etc... Keep on trumping the Shannon Brown and Famars of the league though.

You may want to step away from the keyboard for the next couple of weeks.

The Bulls roster shits on ours, CB and everyone else isn't sensationalizing shit, they are reporting everything they hear from their sources because they desperately want to be the one to break the story, ESPN has a very strict set of Twitter rules for their reporters, and the only reason we get 100 different reports a day is because every NBA source from legit to Screamin A is telling a different "inside" story.

I recommend having a couple of beers and just watching, because you are ripe for a head explosion.

You roll w/ the we versus us smack though. It hurts.

Sasha fucking Kaun.

[CP]

No head explosion here. Just a litigator who can't stop because I enjoy it.

As for Kaun, maybe he's nothing but a number of NBA teams have made contenders out of grabbing late 1st & 2nd round bigs, waiting on them to develop overseas and then bringing them over. Far better than drafting guys like Mullens and Koufas and letting them sit on your bench for years. At least Kaun is getting minutes in Russia; I can only rely on what I see and Windhorst had an article earlier this year saying he was starting to emerge as a viable option or 2010-11.

Looks like the "summit" never happened. Broussard does reek of desperation; he's supposed to be tight with LBJ yet he says he's in one state and he's apparently not.

I still doubt we will ever know who is right on whether the Bulls' plan would net them a bunch of titles because I don't think LBJ goes there. And I am sure we'd all be thrilled if we never knew.

[Orenthal]

You haven't seen homer until you have seen my Shaq takes...

Remove LeBron, free up money for Salmons, celebrate championship. That simple.

[aoxo1]

I love it. The Cavs are a better fit because we can sign another round of Anthony Parkers and Jamario Moons while the Bulls will only have 4 guys who are in the top 5 at their respective positions.

[e0y2e3]

Don't hate aoxo, Shaq + Sasha Kaun at center is going to make Shaq and Z like little child's play. Rings baby, rings.

Sasha Mother Fucking Kaun Motherfucker:

[waborat]

Sasha Mother Fucking Kaun Motherfucker:

The Big Hurt, Pistol, Mailman, Broadway???

Meh...

THAT^ might be the coolest nickname ever

[jb]

John, I just canb't do the discussion / analysis on your plane. I just can't accept it as fixed and unmutable.

I actually agree with you more than you think / perceive, but when you try to force me into a box that looks at the issue your way, I can not.

You remind me of a zoological biologist who inists that a species is the best it can be because it's mutations wer ethe best possible. We don't know that just as we don;t know what Ferry;s real options were in either actuality or unexplored potential. In the stupid anology I've chosen that would even make Tree blush, we wouldn't know the possible genome codes not put together, or the mutation that was better got prematurely munched by a preditor while in the wrong place / wrong time prior to reproduction.

IOW, I don't know precisely what DF's choice set was, nor do you, nor perhaps, does DF know the unexplored. You may know what was public, but that's it. Not an insult. You follow this stuff more than anyone who isn't a cultivated on line ahole personality.;-)

Mmmkay, what I do know was that DF was always either a dollar early or a day short. He put together chicken nuggets with velveeta sauce, not viable chemistry, and reasons aren't excuses.

[jb]

To Pups point....

I got me a choice of playing with D Wade, Chris "soft" Bosh, Pat Riley coming back to the becnh, and South Beach with unimaginable sums of money...

vs.


The 2 guard who laid my Momma (allegedly) , JJ Hix, a rookie HC, and NEO with iunimaginable sums of miney.

Dunno guys. I'm the biggest homer here without 3 letters in my user id and I might not be able to pass that up.

[Madre Hill, Superstar]

Side note - if the cavs were so hell bent on all resources for a 2010 run, explain the Congan Elgin Baylor.

D'Juan Blair was a decent contributor all season and we could have used bigs on D. Very comparable presence to JJ in his 2nd year, even iof they are very different players.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/dejuan_bl ... stats.html

The same reason everyone else in the first round of that draft avoided Blair: Injury risk. If his knees collapse, you're still on the book for his salary for at least two years. In an earlier age, some teams may have risked that. In the No Benjamins Association its 'welcome to lowball contract round, Dejuan'.

[FUDU]

To Pups point....

I got me a choice of playing with D Wade, Chris "soft" Bosh, Pat Riley coming back to the becnh, and South Beach with unimaginable sums of money...

vs.


The 2 guard who laid my Momma (allegedly) , JJ Hix, a rookie HC, and NEO with iunimaginable sums of miney.

Dunno guys. I'm the biggest homer here without 3 letters in my user id and I might not be able to pass that up.

JB you need to put an asterisk on the former choice though b/c LeBron has no desire to be a historical afterthought or considered one of the pieces on a championship team. LeBron wants to be the man that brings home that bacon, sure he needs some help (all greats do) but he wants it to be on his shoulders. If he were to team up with Wade and Bosh there is no way history looks back on that championship (guarantee they'd get one) as LeBron's, it would be theirs.

That is yet another reason why @EOD I feel CTown still has a 51/49 shot.

Also Reghi actually made a great point today in all the talk about Shaw, and him not having experience, in regards to the supposed desires that LeBron has for a HC. Lot of people are concerned a Shaw hire turns LeBron off b/c of lack of experience or others say LeBron needs an HC that was a former player etc... Funny how all that talk is in regards to strictly the Cavs coaching concerns and the lack of experience/former player get overlooked in Chi, Mia, NY or where ever.