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Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

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Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby pup » Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:05 am

Because I sure as hell cannot.

Our biggest hope is he is scared of a ghost.

Kudos to one Daniel Ferry. Screwed us again.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby rigs » Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:16 am

Nope. He is gone.

And him leaving is a direct result of two Dukies.

Ferry and Boozer...
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:31 am

pup wrote:Because I sure as hell cannot.

Our biggest hope is he is scared of a ghost.

Kudos to one Daniel Ferry. Screwed us again.
The reasons for him staying haven't changed, the problem is the reasons for him staying haven't changed.

I'll admit it looks worse today than it did yesterday.

Now more than before it appears to really hinge on LeBron as opposed to a combination of LeBron and what the Cavs do.

The thing I anticipate now is if he leaves he subtly or not so subtly turns this into the org/fans/media turned on me when the season ended and my ties have always been to Akron not Cleveland etc.

ETA: I suppose we should give FA a chance to even get started heh?
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby scott » Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:13 am

pup wrote:Our biggest hope is he is scared of a ghost.


and tall buildings, and melanoma.

Cavs know they have to somehow make a big move in July to keep him. That is really a longshot. The teams making bad moves because the NBA has screwed up financial incentives all happened last night.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby papacass » Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:50 am

What you see is the result of what has played out over the past two years. The Cavs burned any shot at cap flexibility this summer because they thought they'd have hoisted a trophy by now. A championship was going to be their selling point to LBJ, hence the "all-in" philosophy of spending to win now.

Meanwhile, the Bulls, Heat and Knicks haven't been contending, so they have been maneuvering for maximum cap space this summer. So barring a huge trade that excavates some cap space, the Cavs are stuck with what they have, and the other major players for LeBron are in position to put LBJ alongside someone like Chris Bosh.

Not to mention the fact that Chris Grant is a rookie GM, and until he develops some street cred, it might be hard for him to coordinate deals with veteran GMs. As a former player, Ferry had friends and acquaintances in high places, like Steve Kerr. Grant doesn't have that yet. He's probably not all that plugged in.

The Cavs' front office sure as heck looks like that of a rebuilding team. Without saying it outright, maybe the Cavs realize that they're pretty much handcuffed while other teams in more attractive markets are getting ready to pounce. Maybe last night's inactivity is a sign that they're going to just kind of let this whole LeBron situation die on the vine and begin looking toward the future. Leave the door cracked for LeBron's return, but realize that the odds are growing longer by the week.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby pup » Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:16 am

Speaking only for myself, I am amazed at how this has how played out in my own head.

As short as probably a couple of months ago, I made LBJ the biggest villain ever should he turn his back on Cleveland and take less money to go somewhere else. Today? No freakin way. This is totally on the Cleveland Cavaliers for putting this organization in a place that makes it just about impossible for him to stay.

Terrible execution of whatever plan they thought they had. The inability to do the right thing, in the name of going "all-in". That turned into an excuse to make whatever move they possibly could, with absolutely no thought about the end result. Every time we made a move, it backfired. Every time we did not make a move, it backfired. And it backfired because they were always the wrong move at the wrong time. Some of which most people, including myself, agreed with at the time. Unfortunately, the guy who gets paid to be right wasn't. At just about any time in 5 years.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby CP » Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:34 am

I still think it's Chicago or Cleveland. I am not sure LeBron has much interest in the Knicks (LeBron/Bosh + no-names and a coach who hates defense) or the Heat (Wade/LeBron/Joe Johnson/no-names).

So it's Chicago's issues vs. Cleveland's issues. Ours are under a microscope right now but they have their own too:

1) Jordan's legacy
2) The way ownership/front office broke up the Jordan dynasty. Wade has already spoken out against Chicago for this reason.
3) Argument that Thibadeau is Mike Brown Part Deux (respected defensive asst with no real playing experience, no head coaching experience, etc)
4) No legit big man. Bosh has been abused by physical centers his entire career when he's gotten matched up with them and you could argue that the Bulls are no closer to matching up with Boston and Orlando than Cleveland is, and LBJ has a built-in excuse for failure if he stays.
5) Loyalty to Cleveland gets him a pass and allows him to sign another 3 yr deal and maintain this circus for the foreseeable future without the expectations that he starts on two threepeats.

Seems like legit rationale against Chicago to me.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby aoxo1 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:37 am

Because this is Cleveland and it is only fitting that we will be subjected to watching the greatest to never win a championship despite being the #1 seed over and over again for 15 years?
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:38 am

I know one thing Miami is fucked if the gamble doesn't work.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby CP » Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:40 am

FUDU wrote:I know one thing Miami is fucked if the gamble doesn't work.


At least the Knicks needed to dump all that dead weight anyway. Bulls aren't any better if they don't get LBJ, either. They dumped a viable combo guard and a #1 pick for nothing.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby pup » Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:48 am

CP wrote:I still think it's Chicago or Cleveland. I am not sure LeBron has much interest in the Knicks (LeBron/Bosh + no-names and a coach who hates defense) or the Heat (Wade/LeBron/Joe Johnson/no-names).

So it's Chicago's issues vs. Cleveland's issues. Ours are under a microscope right now but they have their own too:

1) Jordan's legacy
2) The way ownership/front office broke up the Jordan dynasty. Wade has already spoken out against Chicago for this reason.
3) Argument that Thibadeau is Mike Brown Part Deux (respected defensive asst with no real playing experience, no head coaching experience, etc)
4) No legit big man. Bosh has been abused by physical centers his entire career when he's gotten matched up with them and you could argue that the Bulls are no closer to matching up with Boston and Orlando than Cleveland is, and LBJ has a built-in excuse for failure if he stays.
5) Loyalty to Cleveland gets him a pass and allows him to sign another 3 yr deal and maintain this circus for the foreseeable future without the expectations that he starts on two threepeats.

Seems like legit rationale against Chicago to me.


1. Ghost. Not even a part of the equation, IMO.
2. Broke up a dynasty that won 6 titles. Guessing LBJ can live with that in a decade.
3. Tom is Mike Brown 2. Very little question about that. Of course, Mike Brown 2 is a bigger name than, wait, who is our coach again?
4. Noah is better than any big in Cleveland. He would handle the centers. And I believe they will be able to retain Brad Miller for 15 banging minutes an evening.
5. You don't think the expectations in Cleveland are part of the problem? That is, expecting him to win those titles without the level of help that he will get just about anywhere else he signs?

Anyway. I guess what I really meant was, can someone state a case that is pro-Cleveland, not anti-another city.

Is there legit basketball reasons for him to stay? Talent? System? Anything? Cuz I cannot find a damn positive reason to stay. It is home. That is it. And that is pitiful as an organization.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:58 am

5. You don't think the expectations in Cleveland are part of the problem? That is, expecting him to win those titles without the level of help that he will get just about anywhere else he signs?
Pup I understand the anxiety but point 5 is flawed as stated in the past month or so. You're comparing our roster as is without LBJ compared to other rosters without LBJ. Our roster was built with LBJ in mind, and up until game 5 against Boston was still considered by many if not most to be just fine for winning the whole damn thing. All the on the court doubts and criticisms of our roster have a big ? attached, the ? being what exactly happened to LeBron and is it a blip on the radar screen or more of a real glimpse of what LeBron really is?

Funny thing is if LeBron stays, we acquire one upgrade piece (whether big or little) and we're still one of the top 2/3 teams in the EC going into next season (on paper) barring any other team getting two of the studs.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby smalls1129 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:14 pm

Yea Pup I don't know how you can put this totally on the Cavs as an organization. If anything Lebron is 1A and the org is 1B for the mess we're in. Had LBJ signed a 6 year extension don't you think it would have been a hell of a lot easier to get a marque free agent to come here. LBJ has done more than Ferry, Gilbert, Brown or anyone else to handcuff this organization and leave them in the position they are in today. LBJ was all talk when it came to being committed to winning a championship in Cleveland...if he had actually been committed then he would have been much more open about his future thus making Cleveland a much much more attractive destination.

Note: All of this becomes moot in my opinion if Boozer never leaves. The last 7 years would have been much different had he not bolted, or even if we got to trade him and receive something in return.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:15 pm

papacass wrote:What you see is the result of what has played out over the past two years. The Cavs burned any shot at cap flexibility this summer because they thought they'd have hoisted a trophy by now. A championship was going to be their selling point to LBJ, hence the "all-in" philosophy of spending to win now.


Bingo. We burned all our flexibility to build a team around convincing Bron to stay, only to discover that what we needed instead was torching the roster for flexibilty. Man if we only knew.

And Donny's right on this one: Game 5 changed everything.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby papacass » Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:20 pm

pup wrote:Speaking only for myself, I am amazed at how this has how played out in my own head.

As short as probably a couple of months ago, I made LBJ the biggest villain ever should he turn his back on Cleveland and take less money to go somewhere else. Today? No freakin way. This is totally on the Cleveland Cavaliers for putting this organization in a place that makes it just about impossible for him to stay.

Terrible execution of whatever plan they thought they had. The inability to do the right thing, in the name of going "all-in". That turned into an excuse to make whatever move they possibly could, with absolutely no thought about the end result. Every time we made a move, it backfired. Every time we did not make a move, it backfired. And it backfired because they were always the wrong move at the wrong time. Some of which most people, including myself, agreed with at the time. Unfortunately, the guy who gets paid to be right wasn't. At just about any time in 5 years.


How could they have done anything differently? They were trying to make hay while the Sun was shining. They needed a second scorer, they got Mo. They neeeded someone to match up with Howard, they got Shaq. They needed a stretch four, they got Jamison.

All of those moves made sense at the time. They were given high marks, not just in Cleveland, but from people around the country who watch the NBA for a living.

You can even second-guess the moves themselves, but I can't see how you really can second-guess the win-now philosophy. They had a superstar under contract. They had a chance to win championships, and they tried to capitalize on it.

Teams like the Bulls, Heat and Knicks, who are all in a better bargaining position now, either didn't have a superstar (Bulls, Knicks), or play in an attractive market like Miami, where the team could take the gamble of telling the resident superstar to be patient, because they know he's probably going to want to stay if at all possible.

Those teams could afford to bide their time and position themselves for this summer. The Cavs just didn't have that luxury. I don't know how you argue the contrary.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby tired » Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:32 pm

Bruce Drenon last night said he had 2 sources saying Chicago will sign Bosch making it a no-brainer for LeBron to go there. FWIW
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby papacass » Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:33 pm

FUDU wrote: All the on the court doubts and criticisms of our roster have a big ? attached, the ? being what exactly happened to LeBron and is it a blip on the radar screen or more of a real glimpse of what LeBron really is?


This. Right here.

Lost in all of the wailing and gnashing over the playoffs this year is the fact that LBJ was a warrior in the playoffs every other year, to the point of trying to do too much and not trusting his teammates enough.

Were the '10 playoffs an indication of LeBron's true form, or a one-time screw-up brought on by the elbow injury, or his mind being elsewhere due to the upcoming free agency? Or was he angry at Roker? Or was Delonte really banging his mom? We might never know for sure. But it's important to identify who the "real" LeBron is. The guy who quit this spring, or the guy who averaged 38 PPG vs. the Magic last spring?
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby papacass » Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:37 pm

tired wrote:Bruce Drenon last night said he had 2 sources saying Chicago will sign Bosch making it a no-brainer for LeBron to go there. FWIW


Which would fly directly in the face of Bosh's comment from yesterday that he'll wait to see where LeBron goes.

Bruce Drennan is fine for loud commentary and idiot callers, but he's not a news source, even secondhand.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby FUDU » Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:48 pm

papacass wrote:
tired wrote:Bruce Drenon last night said he had 2 sources saying Chicago will sign Bosch making it a no-brainer for LeBron to go there. FWIW


Which would fly directly in the face of Bosh's comment from yesterday that he'll wait to see where LeBron goes.

Bruce Drennan is fine for loud commentary and idiot callers, but he's not a news source, even secondhand.

I'm not saying this just b/c I'm a bit of a Drennan fan, but the game of sources is in fact a game. IOW: you'd be surprised at just how many people you walk next to everyday that actually might be or have a source close to the action. Somebody has to be the neighbor, doctor, friend, brother in law, accountant of a Gilbert. For instance unbeknown to me until this past month I know two people extremely close to the Gilbert family. Have heard some things that have happened and happened exactly when they were planned and predicted to.

So just sayin for just sayin sake. You never know just who knows what or who knows who.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:57 pm

No I can't make a case. And I don't care anymore. I've prepared myself for the worst. So why even give a shit about it?

Fuck it.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby Ziner » Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:06 pm

Cerebral_DownTime wrote:No I can't make a case. And I don't care anymore. I've prepared myself for the worst. So why even give a shit about it?

Fuck it.


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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby tired » Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:11 pm

I'm in the same camp as you CDT and Papa. As far as making a case for LeBron staying, I look back to last year watching one of my favorite games as a Cavs fan on Christmas day seeing all those Lakers foam hands being thrown on the court in disgust. The Celtics getting there worse home loss in playoff history. I kno those are only 2 games and the playoffs are a different game but, the potential is there. Hickson should get better. This is still a team with a pretty good chance if LeBron stays. Brown seemed to have held them back IMO.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby diminishingskills » Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:12 pm

You can't have it both ways. In the NBA, you are not going to win a title unless you are over the salary cap, thanks to Bird exceptions, mid-level players, etc. Teams who are under the cap are teams who are hoping for ping-pong balls.

That said, would you have preferred that the Cavs spent the last three years clearing cap room, in hopes of retaining LBJ and enticing another top FA or two to come here? Would you honestly have not said "what the hell are they doing, wasting three of LeBron's best years in hopes of landing another superstar to pair with him?" They did what contending teams do: made moves that hurt their longer term flexibility in order to win now. They ended up with two great regular seasons and two playoff collapses. Not the result any of us wanted, but it's hard to fault the strategy. If we could turn the clock back two years, every one of us would have followed the same strategy again. Every. One.

Those who blame Ferry for not acquiring a superstar to pair with LeBron, welcome to the real world. Superstars are rarely traded. If you want to blame Ferry for not Jedi mind-tricking a fellow GM into, say, the Pau Gasol ass-raping, fine ... but that's like blaming him for having snow in Cleveland in February. It's not a standard that any reasonable analyst would hold him to.

How do you get stars? You draft them. And the only halfway worthwhile pick the Cavs have had since drafting LeBron was the #10 overall pick in 2004. That's the one the Cavs pissed away on LuJack, while Al Jefferson and Josh Smith were still (figuratively at least) sitting in the green room.

The one other young star-level player on this team during the LeBron Years was Carlos Boozer, and ... well, we all know what happened there. I won't discuss it further, except to say that the fiasco happened a year before Ferry came to Cleveland. Kind of hard to pin that one on His Baldedness.

Should the Cavs have spent all that free agent money in 2005 (on IHS, Yell, and Amon)? In retrospect, maybe not. Also in retrospect, if they don't do that, then Bron leaves after his rookie deal. Simple as that. He would have seen a team with glaring holes that wasn't doing anything to fix them, and he would have been gone.

Aside from that, I'm not seeing where Ferry gets the blame. He had no draft picks in 2005 and 2007. He had low picks otherwise (and got decent value for where he picked; Daniel Gibson in the second round, J.J. Hickson at #19 overall). He took advantage of other teams' willingness to dump salaries (and TMLP's blessing of taking those salaries on) to bring in Mo Williams, Shaq, and Tawn -- all moves that are varying degrees of unpopular now, but all moves that were wildly supported at the time -- not to mention all moves that cost the team zero in outgoing talent.

The Cavs took their shots. They were good shots. They missed. And now it may be years before they get the chance again. That's the game.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby Kingpin74 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:48 pm

Again, it was a slow death but Jim Paxson lost us LeBron in the Summer of 2004. Freaking Jeff McInnis was our starting PG yet Paxson passed on Jameer. He was a proven talent that you knew would at least be a viable NBA starter, if not quite an All Star. Revisionist history is tricky but I said these exact words at the time. With a young talent like LeBron in the fold, you just can't botch the 10th pick in a good draft. Then, as far as Boozer, I'm beating a dead horse, but any competent GM insists on picking up his option then re-negotiates afterwards(Boozer only would have been a restricted free agent after that $695K option year by the way). We've been playing catch-up ever since those two moves, like the above post said. It was a domino effect: we then had to press in '05 free agency to keep LeBron the first time then we had to make big money trades to cover up those moves and screw our cap in the process. Getting Mo, Shaq, and Jamison essentially for free was nice but those are the only type of players we could realistically acquire and we've painfully learned that they were available for a reason. Blaming Ferry is unfair because he inherited an urgent situation and did the best he could. The '05 signings sucked but I don't really know what else we were supposed to do. After that, we just didn't have time to reload cap room like a NY, Miami, or Chicago and expect players to show up. If Paxson just made those two simple moves way back when, we're probably polishing a trophy and not having this conversation. The difficulty in stating a case for LeBron to stay is spot on and traces all the way back to '04. Of course LeBron was and is being a jerk about all of this but with some sound basketball moves early on, they wouldn't have opened the door to him handcuffing the franchise.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby Triple-S » Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:03 pm

DiminishingSkills wrote:You can't have it both ways. In the NBA, you are not going to win a title unless you are over the salary cap, thanks to Bird exceptions, mid-level players, etc. Teams who are under the cap are teams who are hoping for ping-pong balls.

That said, would you have preferred that the Cavs spent the last three years clearing cap room, in hopes of retaining LBJ and enticing another top FA or two to come here? Would you honestly have not said "what the hell are they doing, wasting three of LeBron's best years in hopes of landing another superstar to pair with him?" They did what contending teams do: made moves that hurt their longer term flexibility in order to win now. They ended up with two great regular seasons and two playoff collapses. Not the result any of us wanted, but it's hard to fault the strategy. If we could turn the clock back two years, every one of us would have followed the same strategy again. Every. One.

Those who blame Ferry for not acquiring a superstar to pair with LeBron, welcome to the real world. Superstars are rarely traded. If you want to blame Ferry for not Jedi mind-tricking a fellow GM into, say, the Pau Gasol ass-raping, fine ... but that's like blaming him for having snow in Cleveland in February. It's not a standard that any reasonable analyst would hold him to.

How do you get stars? You draft them. And the only halfway worthwhile pick the Cavs have had since drafting LeBron was the #10 overall pick in 2004. That's the one the Cavs pissed away on LuJack, while Al Jefferson and Josh Smith were still (figuratively at least) sitting in the green room.

The one other young star-level player on this team during the LeBron Years was Carlos Boozer, and ... well, we all know what happened there. I won't discuss it further, except to say that the fiasco happened a year before Ferry came to Cleveland. Kind of hard to pin that one on His Baldedness.

Should the Cavs have spent all that free agent money in 2005 (on IHS, Yell, and Amon)? In retrospect, maybe not. Also in retrospect, if they don't do that, then Bron leaves after his rookie deal. Simple as that. He would have seen a team with glaring holes that wasn't doing anything to fix them, and he would have been gone.

Aside from that, I'm not seeing where Ferry gets the blame. He had no draft picks in 2005 and 2007. He had low picks otherwise (and got decent value for where he picked; Daniel Gibson in the second round, J.J. Hickson at #19 overall). He took advantage of other teams' willingness to dump salaries (and TMLP's blessing of taking those salaries on) to bring in Mo Williams, Shaq, and Tawn -- all moves that are varying degrees of unpopular now, but all moves that were wildly supported at the time -- not to mention all moves that cost the team zero in outgoing talent.

The Cavs took their shots. They were good shots. They missed. And now it may be years before they get the chance again. That's the game.


This is why you're one of the best writers here. nailed it.

just still hard to swallow the medicine without the table spoon of sugar, we're left watching another great athlete in this city leave again, while we were promised something different.

fuck lebron, when does football season start?
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby daddywags » Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:09 pm

I think it’s about 50-50 at this point. My case:

1. 120+ wins the last two seasons. Top seed in the conference both years. That’s easy to ignore because we didn’t win a championship, but then neither did any of the teams LeBron is looking at this summer. No matter where he goes, they still have to get past Orlando, Boston and, especially, the Lakers.

2. He has the owner in his pocket. Again, it’s easy to overlook all the hidden perks LeBron and his “team” have perhaps come to take for granted here in Cleveland, but there is no guarantee those things stay in place if he goes somewhere else. Here he can pretty much approve or disapprove any big trade or coaching hire. If he wants a friend or one of WWW’s clients to get a spot on the summer league team all it takes is a phone call and it’s done. Will Gloria and Maverick and whomever else LeBron wants be welcome on the Bulls, Knicks or Heat team plane? Maybe, but maybe not. After you sign that 6 year contract, LeBron, you lose an awful lot of leverage you have built up already here in Cleveland.

3. LeBron might be willing to give up $30 million to sign outright with another team, but that doesn’t mean all the other free agents will follow suit. Chicago has (almost) enough money to sign two max free agents outright and Miami definitely does, but will Chris Bosh or Amare or Joe Johnson agree to sign away their sign-and-trade rights just to play with LeBron? Yet, Chicago and Miami have precious little assets left (other than a large trade exception) to do a sign-and-trade deal unless some team really wants to pay Luol Deng $51 million over the next four years or have Michael Beasley on their team at all. The Cavs, on the other hand, have the ability to pay max money to LeBron and still have some decent assets for a sign-and-trade deal for someone else. And, failing that, they’d have a bunch of ending contracts at trade deadline time this year and next.

4. Cavs fans are frustrated with the team (rightly so) but around the league guys like Mo Williams and Antawn Jamison and Anderson Varejao probably get more respect than they do right now in Cleveland. Jamario Moon and Anthony Parker are solid NBA rotation players. JJ Hickson has promise as a young big man. As mentioned above, the team has trade assets and a willing owner to continue to add pieces where possible. OTOH, two summers from now Joakim Noah is a free agent and the summer after that Derrick Rose is a free agent. Do they both get max contracts on top of, say, LeBron and Bosh? Is there any guarantee of that for LeBron right now?
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby Lubber » Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:23 pm

Triple-S wrote:we're left watching another great athlete in this city leave again, while we were promised something different.


When did LeBron ever promise he was staying here?
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby papacass » Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:26 pm

FUDU wrote:I'm not saying this just b/c I'm a bit of a Drennan fan, but the game of sources is in fact a game. IOW: you'd be surprised at just how many people you walk next to everyday that actually might be or have a source close to the action. Somebody has to be the neighbor, doctor, friend, brother in law, accountant of a Gilbert. For instance unbeknown to me until this past month I know two people extremely close to the Gilbert family. Have heard some things that have happened and happened exactly when they were planned and predicted to.

So just sayin for just sayin sake. You never know just who knows what or who knows who.


This is true, but there are also a lot of people in the doctor-dentist-barber-extended family ranks who like to pretend that they know more than they actually know. Their way of trumpeting their own importance.

Certainly, people do find things out through their work connections or family or whatnot. But it also becomes a case like Lenny Barker's perfect game. If everyone was there who said they were there, Muni Stadium would have held 300,000. More people want you to believe they have the "inside scoop" than actually have the real-deal news.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby Triple-S » Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:30 pm

Lubber wrote:
Triple-S wrote:we're left watching another great athlete in this city leave again, while we were promised something different.


When did LeBron ever promise he was staying here?


he promised to light up the city like vegas, and get us a title.

obviously that never happened, and thus what I was referring to.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby motherscratcher » Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:30 pm

Lubber wrote:
Triple-S wrote:we're left watching another great athlete in this city leave again, while we were promised something different.


When did LeBron ever promise he was staying here?


My guess is that Ess-Cubed was referring to Lebron promising Championships.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby Lubber » Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:18 pm

Triple-S wrote:
Lubber wrote:
Triple-S wrote:we're left watching another great athlete in this city leave again, while we were promised something different.


When did LeBron ever promise he was staying here?


he promised to light up the city like vegas, and get us a title.

obviously that never happened, and thus what I was referring to.


I hope you do not hold every player responsible for when he does not bring home a title. What is he supposed to say "I am going to amaze you fans with my play, but fall short when it comes playoff time?"
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby Cease » Fri Jun 25, 2010 4:25 pm

Cases for LeBron to stay (I'm not saying these are even on his radar):

1. More guaranteed money here.
2. Closer connection to his home, family, and rooted friends.
3. He wants to demonstrate loyalty the club that drafted him, built an organization around him (including practice facilities), set him up with oversees business interests, and has generally sheltered and nurtured him.
4. Winning a championship in Cleveland after July 1, 2010 will be perceived as a bigger challenge than winning a championship in another city and his ego wants points for the high degree of difficulty.
5. This is all one huge tease designed to A) let him get drunk off with his own power, and B) create a frenzy where premier players can drive high dollar contracts for the player pool en masse.
6. Swenson's

Slip slidin' away.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby scott » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:02 pm

1) Wait for Phil Jackson to get pissed at a lowball Lakers offer. Make him the highest paid coach ever in any sport.

2) Turn Delonte West and Bassy Telfair's expirings in to a guard who can score AND defend.

3) Promise to run.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby peeker643 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:10 pm

It ain't gonna be the biggest factor but it will be one of them: dude is comfortable where he is. Comfortable with his home and family there, comfortable that the media here is toothless and lazy and leaves him a lone.

End of day, I think you'll see if he prefers being amazing over winning. If he stays here when he has a better opportunity to go elsewhere and win then he's said a mouthful. And though he'll be here it ain't exactly reassuring as to why.

And btw, I don't think he does anything w/o Bosh if he goes this 'Two Max' (or more) route. Bosh is as quiet as he is effective. LBJ won't be upstaged as Bosh is a bass player and not the front man. I don't think LBJ and Wade will blend too well. Same with LBJ and Amare. He'll go to CHI where he's the alpha celeb/star and a guy like Bosh/Boozer go in support. Or he'll stay here.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby daddywags » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:29 pm

peeker643 wrote:It ain't gonna be the biggest factor but it will be one of them: dude is comfortable where he is. Comfortable with his home and family there, comfortable that the media here is toothless and lazy and leaves him a lone.

End of day, I think you'll see if he prefers being amazing over winning. If he stays here when he has a better opportunity to go elsewhere and win then he's said a mouthful. And though he'll be here it ain't exactly reassuring as to why.

And btw, I don't think he does anything w/o Bosh if he goes this 'Two Max' (or more) route. Bosh is as quiet as he is effective. LBJ won't be upstaged as Bosh is a bass player and not the front man. I don't think LBJ and Wade will blend too well. Same with LBJ and Amare. He'll go to CHI where he's the alpha celeb/star and a guy like Bosh/Boozer go in support. Or he'll stay here.


Said this elsewhere, but it's been running through my head that if LBJ and Bosh team up with Rose and Noah it will take opponents about 3 games to learn that if you pack the paint against them they'll have trouble scoring. Unless Ray Allen or someone like him takes a vet minimum to play with them they'll have a devil of a time stretching the floor. It would be kind of interesting to watch LeBron and Rose try to share the ball, and the paint, with Noah and Bosh against five low post defenders. It could make LeBron pine for the days of Damon Jones and Sasha Pavlovic.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby smalls1129 » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:56 pm

To add, peeker; you don't think that Derrick Rose favors himself as the alpha dog front man? He'll say all the right things at the beginning but do you think he can handle being 2nd, perhaps even 3rd fiddle on any given night. Just see both he and LBJ needing the ball in their hands too much to coexist for the long run.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby OldDawg » Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:18 pm

DiminishingSkills wrote:You can't have it both ways. In the NBA, you are not going to win a title unless you are over the salary cap, thanks to Bird exceptions, mid-level players, etc. Teams who are under the cap are teams who are hoping for ping-pong balls.

That said, would you have preferred that the Cavs spent the last three years clearing cap room, in hopes of retaining LBJ and enticing another top FA or two to come here? Would you honestly have not said "what the hell are they doing, wasting three of LeBron's best years in hopes of landing another superstar to pair with him?" They did what contending teams do: made moves that hurt their longer term flexibility in order to win now. They ended up with two great regular seasons and two playoff collapses. Not the result any of us wanted, but it's hard to fault the strategy. If we could turn the clock back two years, every one of us would have followed the same strategy again. Every. One.

Those who blame Ferry for not acquiring a superstar to pair with LeBron, welcome to the real world. Superstars are rarely traded. If you want to blame Ferry for not Jedi mind-tricking a fellow GM into, say, the Pau Gasol ass-raping, fine ... but that's like blaming him for having snow in Cleveland in February. It's not a standard that any reasonable analyst would hold him to.

How do you get stars? You draft them. And the only halfway worthwhile pick the Cavs have had since drafting LeBron was the #10 overall pick in 2004. That's the one the Cavs pissed away on LuJack, while Al Jefferson and Josh Smith were still (figuratively at least) sitting in the green room.

The one other young star-level player on this team during the LeBron Years was Carlos Boozer, and ... well, we all know what happened there. I won't discuss it further, except to say that the fiasco happened a year before Ferry came to Cleveland. Kind of hard to pin that one on His Baldedness.

Should the Cavs have spent all that free agent money in 2005 (on IHS, Yell, and Amon)? In retrospect, maybe not. Also in retrospect, if they don't do that, then Bron leaves after his rookie deal. Simple as that. He would have seen a team with glaring holes that wasn't doing anything to fix them, and he would have been gone.

Aside from that, I'm not seeing where Ferry gets the blame. He had no draft picks in 2005 and 2007. He had low picks otherwise (and got decent value for where he picked; Daniel Gibson in the second round, J.J. Hickson at #19 overall). He took advantage of other teams' willingness to dump salaries (and TMLP's blessing of taking those salaries on) to bring in Mo Williams, Shaq, and Tawn -- all moves that are varying degrees of unpopular now, but all moves that were wildly supported at the time -- not to mention all moves that cost the team zero in outgoing talent.

The Cavs took their shots. They were good shots. They missed. And now it may be years before they get the chance again. That's the game.
Agree with DS here. I liked almost every move we have made at the time. It's really easy for us hind-sighters to think otherwise now. And how many of us were on here screaming as every trade deadline approached, demanding that the Cavs make a BIG move to win now and hence to keep LBJ. About 95+% of us.

And BTW, if LBJ wants to go to a team that knows how to win, there are two. They are LAL and Boston. That's it.

NY? You talk about the legendary Knicks, but when was the last time they were good and when they have been good, how long did they sustain it???

Chicago as a franchise hasn't proven it can win. They won in one era, and that is only because Houston and Portland thought Akeem and Bowie were better than MJ. If those two franchises had brains, MJ's legend would be elsewhere. Now outside of the MJ era, Chicago has no clue on sustaining a winning NBA franchise.

If LBJ wants to truly go to a winner, there are only 2 choices. Boston and LA.

Every other franchise is just like the Cavs. Hoping to create a window of time with a chance to win it all.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby papacass » Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:35 pm

If it works out that LeBron is able to hook up with another superstar (wherein "superstar" is defined as Bosh, Wade or Amare) then I can't see that happening in Cleveland, so yes, he's probably gone.

However....

Let's not take it for granted that just because other teams have cleared the space to sign two max players, it's definitely going to happen. We've established that LBJ and Wade would have a hard time coexisting. I'd throw Bosh and Amare in there, too. What a guy says during free agency and how he acts when faced with the proposition of not being the focal point of the offense can be two different things. Bosh would see his shots go down when paired with another superstar.

I mean, these guys have a hard enough time deciding whose entourage is going to provide security at the dance club VIP room. And they're going to coordinate enough to coexist on the same team for eight months a year for six years?

And let's also not forget that the Cavs still have a pretty nice roster. They still have Jamison, Hickson, Varejao, Moon, AP, and will likely flip Mo and Delonte into some form of a new backcourt before the offseason ends. And they also have Shaq's Bird rights, for whatever it's worth.

The Cavs are still the deepest team on LeBron's radar. Any other team that he could go to might be able to put a dynamite starting five on the floor, but the Bulls, Heat and Knicks would all suffer from serious depth issues with all their money committed to two max contracts.

So cap space doesn't make an LBJ move to Chicago or New York or Miami a slam dunk. There are other factors at work, and the Cavs are at least a known quantity with some quality.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby tired » Fri Jun 25, 2010 9:57 pm

Awesome post papa !!! Hope LeBron realizes that. Spot on
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby Spin » Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:33 am

I hear a LOT of talk about a sign-and-trade with Toronto for Chris Bosh, and that might sound good, but what really beat us last year? And every other GD year since Mark Price? (and I don't think HE could defend the PG's in the NBA today). Same shit different PG. Or attempted converted PG. Everyone saw it, talked about it, Paxson and Ferry did nothing to improve it. And last I checked, Bosh is not a PG.

All the stop gap trades and signings to counteract our assumed opponents in the playoffs took apart a team that fit Brownie's system. That being defense. Mo can't play D, Jamison can't play D, Shaq isn't a shadow of the real Shaq. We got all set up for Dwight, but guess what. Boston used our lack of D and raped us with it, Mo made Rondo a freakin superstar.

As much as I don't respect Brownie's play calling and "rotations", his hands were tied. LBJ took his plays and responded by standing at the three point line for 15 seconds before figuring out what to do. And his defensive game plan was trashed by bringing in guys who couldn't defend.

I'm with CDT. No LeBron, no Cavs on my list of interests. It's just not my game, not my culture. If I want to get screamed at and rattled with loud rap I'll go down St. Clair with my wife. NBA basketball is only interesting to me if the Cavs wins. A lot.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby Orenthal » Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:14 pm

I don't really know how to answer ^, or I am even meant to. Seems frontrunner'ish, but as you state basketball isn't your thing, and there is a very good chance that LeBron is gone and we get no PG improvement.

Too many traded draft picks during the Paxson reign. Even those later picks could have yeilded a decent PG, especially since the league is becoming PG driven.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby OldDawg » Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:00 pm

Spin wrote:but what really beat us last year? And every other GD year since Mark Price? (and I don't think HE could defend the PG's in the NBA today). Same shit different PG. Or attempted converted PG.
Mark Price was one of my favorite athletes ever. As much or more for what he stood for, than for his game. However, Mark Price was never a good defensive player. I still have visions of him stopping at the foul line on defense as PGs beat him and waiting for Brad, Hot Rod and Larry to bail him out.

And if we sign Bosh, we have a glut at PF. I assume we would give up Tawn in the trade. Dunno. This speculation and waiting is giving me a headache.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby Spin » Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:03 pm

To answer O, maybe clarify, a lot of people think LBJ resigns if Bosh comes in a S&T. But that still doesn't answer our biggest need, we have no answer for the star PG's today. So is that really a scenario he would be interested in? Is Bosh that much better than Hixson (part of the S&T no doubt) to make up for Mo's tenacious D? I don't think it's workable even with Bosh. And if LBJ wants to win, he's looking at it the same way.

If Paxson or Ferry had brought in a good PG, it would probably be a sure thing. But we know how that went. Heck if we had a PG who could defend, we might not be having this conversation.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby CP » Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:07 pm

I'd assume that in any Bosh trade, Jamison would go back to his Dallas days as the 6th man. He could come in as a sub for Bosh/James or join them when the Cavs when small in the front court.

I doubt that Toronto would want that contract back in a S&T. They'd probably be looking for Hickson as a young attempt to replace Bosh, West for financial relief, our 2011 1st rounder and then Varejao as a reasonably priced big and Moon/Parker as an expiring deal.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby CP » Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:35 pm

Assuming no additional trades, just handicapping the 6 teams that LBJ is going to meet with:

CHICAGO
PG Rose
SG James Johnson
SF LeBron (via UFA)
PF Bosh (via UFA)(assuming he'll take the lower salary; if not, sub in Boozer or Amare here)
C Noah
Bench: Taj Gibson, Luol Deng

Have to renounce all potential own FAs to clear the cap room. Will have to sign guys at veteran minimum to fill out roster. No MLE since they are under the cap. Notably gone are Brad Miller, Kirk Hinrich, Flip Murray from playoff squad.

MIAMI

PG Wade
SG Joe Johnson (via UFA)
SF LeBron (via UFA)
PF Michael Beasley
C ?
BENCH: Mario Chalmers, Jarvis Varnado (R), Da'Sean Butler (R), Dexter Pittman (R)

Have to renounce all potential own FAs to clear the cap room. Will have to sign guys at veteran minimum to fill out roster. No MLE since they are under the cap. Gone from their playoff team are Jermaine O'Neal, Udonis Haslem, Quentin Richardson, Carlos Arroyo, Jamaal Magliore.

NEW YORK KNICKS
PG Toney Douglas
SG ?
SF LeBron (via UFA)
PF Bosh (via UFA)
C Eddy Curry
BENCH: Wilson Chandler, Danilo Gallinardi

Have to renounce all potential own FAs to clear the cap room. Will have to sign guys at veteran minimum to fill out roster. No MLE since they are under the cap. Gone from their team are top two scorers: David Lee, Al Harrington.

LA CLIPPERS

PG Baron Davis
SG Eric Gordon
SF LeBron (via UFA)
PF Blake Griffin
C Chris Kaman
BENCH: DeAndre Jordan, Al-Farouq Aminu (R), Eric Bledsoe (R)

Have to renounce all potential own FAs to clear the cap room. Will have to sign guys at veteran minimum to fill out roster. No MLE since they are under the cap.

NJ NETS

PG Devin Harris
SG Courtney Lee
SF LeBron (SF)
PF Derrick Favors (R)
C Brook Lopez
BENCH: Yi Jianlian, Kris Humphries, Terrence Williams, Jordan Crawford (R), Tibor Pliess (R)

Have to renounce all potential own FAs to clear the cap room. Will have to sign guys at veteran minimum to fill out roster. No MLE since they are under the cap.

CLEVELAND CAVALIERS

PG Mo Williams
SG Anthony Parker
SF LeBron James
PF JJ Hickson
C Shaquille O'Neal
BENCH: Antawn Jamison, Anderson Varejao, Daniel Gibson, Jamario Moon, Leon Powe, Sebastian Telfair, Danny Green

MLE available. Rights to Sasha Kaun available. (Assumption made that O'Neal returns if LeBron does.)



The argument could be made that while the Bulls clearly have the strongest starting 5, not a single one of those 5 teams trying to sign him have any real depth that isn't going to rely on veterans signing for nothing more than the minimum or a bunch of rookies. That Cavs team won 60+ games two years in a row and arguably might be better with a real offense, an offseason for Jamison with the team, and improved contributions from Hickson and Powe. Use of the MLE and signing Kaun in the front court isn't going to hurt either.

EDITED: Added in key losses from 09-10 teams.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:34 pm

Some of y'all are over-thinking this.

Chicago has a bigger stage, real legitimate talent, and a pliable rookie head coach. Throw in Bosh as the ultimate 'happy to be there' hanger-on, and you have the perfect situation to assuage Lebron's ego while giving a faint nod to any nominal championship aspirations.

That all the fancy jigsaw pieces might not fit into LeISO or that Thibedeau might be French for 'Roker', that doesn't matter. If they wind up on the wrong end of a series with Orlando or OKC, Gar Forman will just have to find even better talent to surround Bron with.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby tired » Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:56 pm

What a great discussion/breakdown from everyone on this board !!! I've come to the conclussion now that if LeBron leaves LeBron = BOOzER !!!
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby Spin » Sat Jun 26, 2010 5:33 pm

Difference being everyone was united at not "following" Boozer to Utah...
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:20 pm

Though if I really thought about it....

- He has a sense of loyalty and a realization that if he left he'd be only slightly more welcome in Akron than Uncle Scum
- He has a stark realization when he compares balance sheets between Reinsdorf, Arisano, and TMLP.
- He has another one when he reviews transcripts of the Knicks' sexual harassment case.
- Grant swings a deal in place to bring in CP3, Al Jefferson, or Agent Zero Common Sense.
- Gilbert slides him part ownership of the casinos under the table.
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Re: Can Anyone Make A Case For LBJ Staying?

Unread postby FUDU » Sun Jun 27, 2010 12:05 pm

Spin wrote:I hear a LOT of talk about a sign-and-trade with Toronto for Chris Bosh, and that might sound good, but what really beat us last year? And every other GD year since Mark Price? (and I don't think HE could defend the PG's in the NBA today). Same shit different PG. Or attempted converted PG. Everyone saw it, talked about it, Paxson and Ferry did nothing to improve it. And last I checked, Bosh is not a PG.
A little trip back down memory lane for she sake of clarification. A lot of people seem to forget the list of PG's this franchise has had since Price.

Brandon for starters, dude was good, for 2-3 period he was one of the top 3 all around PG's in the game. Problem was we lacked a true scorer so we needed him to try to be a scorer. Then we had Brevin Knight, a guy that was a solid distributor, unfortunately with no shot at the time, man a Brevin Knight from back in the day would look good w/LeBron right now. Then of course Andre Miller, nuff said there. Back when we had 7-8 guys averaging double figures, problem was it was 11ppg for each of them.

All of those PGs had the luxury of being with this org when we had no legit go to guy at the 2 or 3. We always seemed to have nice players in that spot but that was the problem they were nice. Those PGs probably all would have been much better if LeBron came a decade sooner.

Seems to me this org has never been able to sustain a good mix of having a PG when we have a C when we have a 2/3.

Now I would kill for any of those guys in their youth.
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