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Off season trades

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Off season trades

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:48 pm

Looks like the Cavs are making moves regardless of the LBJ situation; Mo Gotti possibly gone (sad) and Delonte also on the way out.

Question is, what are we bringing back in return? What kind of peice is Cleveland looking to add? A strong 2 guard, or reinforcements on the front line to replace Shaq and Z?

(back court always seems to be the most pressing need, but w/o the two guys mentioned above, Cleveland has 4 PF's and no C's)
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby swerb » Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:21 pm

Clearly something needs done in the backcourt.

There's a big problem with Mo Williams. He's just a matchup nightmare for the Cavs going up against any of the quick, talented point guards (Rose, Rondo, Jennings, Jameer, etc) in the East. It just befuddles me how much of a defensive liability Mo has been in the playoffs the last two years. He's quick and smart at the offensive end, but a step slow and has a negative BBall IQ at the defensive end. And with him coming up on 28 in a few months, all the aforementioned guys much younger, the problem will only get worse.

To get something you gotta give something up. Mo's gotta go. The problem will be getting 100 cents on the dollar for him after another playoff no show. Hopefully some team out west will bite.

Delonte - I love Delonte. But his unreliability coupled with the nature of his contract (can be bought out for 500k by a team acquiring him, essentially like an expiring contract) ... prolly means he's gone.

Boobie is a bit player. Not talented enough to play the point, not physically gifted enough to play the 2 and check the real tough wing 2's in the East. I like him as a bench guy.

Parker and Moon will both likely be back. Parker is what he is. Not gonna hurt you (unless you put him on Rondo). Still trying to figure out why Moon didn't play more in the Boston series.

Bottom line - backcourt gonna look a lot different next season.
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby papacass » Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:16 pm

This team needs an elite PG very badly. Probably their most pressing need.

This team doesn't need more scoring if LeBron re-signs. They have individual offensive talent coming out of every orifice. They have a orchestra of scorers, but no conductor. LeBron isn't that. He's a star performer, not Franz Welser-Most.

Bring in a capable SG, and a PG like CP3 could chuck the ball in any direction and hit a guy who could average at least 15 PPG.

But the PG would need to be of the caliber of a CP3, because LeBron isn't going to respect anyone less.
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby Sol Solis » Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:47 pm

papacass wrote:This team needs an elite PG very badly. Probably their most pressing need.

This team doesn't need more scoring if LeBron re-signs. They have individual offensive talent coming out of every orifice. They have a orchestra of scorers, but no conductor. LeBron isn't that. He's a star performer, not Franz Welser-Most.

Bring in a capable SG, and a PG like CP3 could chuck the ball in any direction and hit a guy who could average at least 15 PPG.

But the PG would need to be of the caliber of a CP3, because LeBron isn't going to respect anyone less.


From Windhorst this morning though, CP3 isn't going to be likely. Not sure if you were being rhetorical or not, but CP3 has been discussed.

That being said, what're the chances the Cavs even get a PG of that caliber with their current players? Seems unlikely to me.
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby Madre Hill, Superstar » Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:49 pm

papacass wrote:But the PG would need to be of the caliber of a CP3, because LeBron isn't going to respect anyone less.


He respected anyone else to handle the ball?

OK, maybe J-Kidd.
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby aoxo1 » Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:02 pm

papacass wrote:This team needs an elite PG very badly. Probably their most pressing need.

This team doesn't need more scoring if LeBron re-signs. They have individual offensive talent coming out of every orifice. They have a orchestra of scorers, but no conductor. LeBron isn't that. He's a star performer, not Franz Welser-Most.

Bring in a capable SG, and a PG like CP3 could chuck the ball in any direction and hit a guy who could average at least 15 PPG.

But the PG would need to be of the caliber of a CP3, because LeBron isn't going to respect anyone less.

Or a coach that doesn't put up with LeBron pulling his bullshit on offense and forces him to let a lesser PG run the show.
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby CAVSTRIBEBROWNSin07! » Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:48 pm

papacass wrote:This team needs an elite PG very badly. Probably their most pressing need.

This team doesn't need more scoring if LeBron re-signs. They have individual offensive talent coming out of every orifice. They have a orchestra of scorers, but no conductor. LeBron isn't that. He's a star performer, not Franz Welser-Most.

Bring in a capable SG, and a PG like CP3 could chuck the ball in any direction and hit a guy who could average at least 15 PPG.

But the PG would need to be of the caliber of a CP3, because LeBron isn't going to respect anyone less.

That pretty much leaves you with... Chris Paul.

Which aint happening.
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby aoxo1 » Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:01 pm

Geeze, haven't you been paying attention? Deron Williams in the best PG in the NBA. No wait, Steve Nash is. Umm, I mean Rajon Rondo.
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby jb » Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:12 pm

Mo Danny Green may be the whitest Black baller I've ever witnessed.

Sayin'.

His game is 100% stereotypically suburban. Tim Legler says he's one dimentional.

Decent 3rd guard at best.

Bro Redz is just too nuts to be counted on at that salary.

Dump them. Dump them all. Dump SSB. Dump JJ after one more year when you can Roy Hinson some dumb ass team.

I want a 5 of Bassy, the Zambian/Namian or whetever the hell Flyer, Moon, Jawad Williams, and JJ.

I want to win 5 games..... over the next 3 seasons.
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby CP » Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:13 pm

Funny NBA Trade Machine deal that works:

Hornets get F JJ Hickson, G Anthony Parker, G Delonte West, Kings 2010 1st, 76ers 2010 1st
Kings get G Mo Williams
76ers get F Antawn Jamison
Cavs get F Andres Nocioni, F Elton Brand, G Chris Paul

Fun, crazy trade. Could make a reason why every team in that deal would make it, though some not as compelling as others.
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby JCoz » Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:55 pm

papacass wrote:This team needs an elite PG very badly. Probably their most pressing need.

........They have a orchestra of scorers, but no conductor. LeBron isn't that. He's a star performer, not Franz Welser-Most.........

But the PG would need to be of the caliber of a CP3, because LeBron isn't going to respect anyone less.


Well, and at the very real risk of looking really BBall stupid here, are we absolutely SURE LBJ couldn't be the conductor?

I mean, in the extremely likely event we cannot get a CP3 or equivalent, what would be the +/-'s in making a move for a star quality SF instead..and literally making LBJ the point guard?

He's a better combined passer and scorer than most of the leagues PG's, are his defense and ball handling enough of a deterrent to poo poo the idea before it even gets spoken aloud?

He has a seemingly natural aversion to playing with his back to the basket, and people have speculated on the problems with a true PG because LBJ spends so much time with the ball in his hands, by need or choice is in the eye of the beholder I guess.

Take it easy on me guys, just a dumb idea that popped into my head today, there are much more knowledgeable BBall guys here that I'd like to hear from on why that will/won't work...if this has been discussed ad nauseum before, apologies, didn't see it.

Of course I don't think he's coming back anyways, so I'm just BSing here..
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby pup » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:44 pm

JCoz wrote:
papacass wrote:This team needs an elite PG very badly. Probably their most pressing need.

........They have a orchestra of scorers, but no conductor. LeBron isn't that. He's a star performer, not Franz Welser-Most.........

But the PG would need to be of the caliber of a CP3, because LeBron isn't going to respect anyone less.


Well, and at the very real risk of looking really BBall stupid here, are we absolutely SURE LBJ couldn't be the conductor?

I mean, in the extremely likely event we cannot get a CP3 or equivalent, what would be the +/-'s in making a move for a star quality SF instead..and literally making LBJ the point guard?

He's a better combined passer and scorer than most of the leagues PG's, are his defense and ball handling enough of a deterrent to poo poo the idea before it even gets spoken aloud?

He has a seemingly natural aversion to playing with his back to the basket, and people have speculated on the problems with a true PG because LBJ spends so much time with the ball in his hands, by need or choice is in the eye of the beholder I guess.

Take it easy on me guys, just a dumb idea that popped into my head today, there are much more knowledgeable BBall guys here that I'd like to hear from on why that will/won't work...if this has been discussed ad nauseum before, apologies, didn't see it.

Of course I don't think he's coming back anyways, so I'm just BSing here..


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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby waborat » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:54 pm

pup wrote:
LeBron wants to be Paris Hilton more than Mike.


Carry on...
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby papacass » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:09 am

JCoz wrote:Well, and at the very real risk of looking really BBall stupid here, are we absolutely SURE LBJ couldn't be the conductor? ..


We already know what happens when LBJ is the conductor. He dribbles down the shot clock, teams like the Celtics are allowed to set their defense, and the offense stalls.

LeBron is a very good passer (To be honest, I think he's a little overrated as a passer. He can be very turnover-prone.) But regardless, passing skill alone doesn't mean he should be running the point. He's too valuable as a finisher. He really, really, really needs to move without the ball. He needs to be catching the ball while moving toward the basket.

His passing skills are best-served in burning defenses when they double him. But not distributing the ball. It really makes no sense if your best scorer spends most of his time setting up the other four guys to score.

LeBron should not want to be Magic, and I don't really think he wants to be. He scores way more than Magic ever did, and he's bigger and more physical. His passing is purely a supplement to his scoring.
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby pup » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:41 am

papacass wrote:
JCoz wrote:Well, and at the very real risk of looking really BBall stupid here, are we absolutely SURE LBJ couldn't be the conductor? ..


We already know what happens when LBJ is the conductor. He dribbles down the shot clock, teams like the Celtics are allowed to set their defense, and the offense stalls.

LeBron is a very good passer (To be honest, I think he's a little overrated as a passer. He can be very turnover-prone.) But regardless, passing skill alone doesn't mean he should be running the point. He's too valuable as a finisher. He really, really, really needs to move without the ball. He needs to be catching the ball while moving toward the basket.

His passing skills are best-served in burning defenses when they double him. But not distributing the ball. It really makes no sense if your best scorer spends most of his time setting up the other four guys to score.

LeBron should not want to be Magic, and I don't really think he wants to be. He scores way more than Magic ever did, and he's bigger and more physical. His passing is purely a supplement to his scoring.


Maybe this is only because come playoff time, all of his Robin's lay eggs?

I know ya'all gonna hate this, but I look at his role on the Olympic team as his ideal scenario. He was still the best player/scorer on the court at all times, but relishes in his ability to make things easier for all of those other guys by commanding attention.

I think he would rather average 25 and 10 than 30 and 8.
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:54 am

papacass wrote:
JCoz wrote:Well, and at the very real risk of looking really BBall stupid here, are we absolutely SURE LBJ couldn't be the conductor? ..


We already know what happens when LBJ is the conductor. He dribbles down the shot clock, teams like the Celtics are allowed to set their defense, and the offense stalls.

LeBron is a very good passer (To be honest, I think he's a little overrated as a passer. He can be very turnover-prone.) But regardless, passing skill alone doesn't mean he should be running the point. He's too valuable as a finisher. He really, really, really needs to move without the ball. He needs to be catching the ball while moving toward the basket.

His passing skills are best-served in burning defenses when they double him. But not distributing the ball. It really makes no sense if your best scorer spends most of his time setting up the other four guys to score.

LeBron should not want to be Magic, and I don't really think he wants to be. He scores way more than Magic ever did, and he's bigger and more physical. His passing is purely a supplement to his scoring.


But what would be the difference between what he already does, including when he ran the point w/o Mo this season, and what some of the other scoring PG's do like Wade ....

I guess I'm not really seeing the difference there.

Putting LBJ at PG with a new SF might not be optimal but it may be a net increase over LBJ at SF and Mo at PG....

Of course I am just talking about options here....when you limit yourself for a CP3 its a dead end, opening the option of looking for a SF instead might actually turn up some realistic options....

I just don't know that it helps to remain fixated on the optimal addition (elite point) if it isn't a realistic possibility, I mean you still have to play your hand in the end.....
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby aoxo1 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:06 am

pup wrote:I know ya'all gonna hate this, but I look at his role on the Olympic team as his ideal scenario. He was still the best player/scorer on the court at all times, but relishes in his ability to make things easier for all of those other guys by commanding attention.

I think he would rather average 25 and 10 than 30 and 8.

You mean the Olympic team that he claimed to every microphone he was the leader of, and then deferred to Kobe during the big moments?

That one?
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby aoxo1 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:07 am

Wade is not a 1, he is a 2.
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby pup » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:11 am

aoxo1 wrote:
pup wrote:I know ya'all gonna hate this, but I look at his role on the Olympic team as his ideal scenario. He was still the best player/scorer on the court at all times, but relishes in his ability to make things easier for all of those other guys by commanding attention.

I think he would rather average 25 and 10 than 30 and 8.

You mean the Olympic team that he claimed to every microphone he was the leader of, and then deferred to Kobe during the big moments?

That one?


You say defer. I say what I said.
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby JCoz » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:18 am

aoxo1 wrote:Wade is not a 1, he is a 2.


Whose playing PG for them? Chalmers at 24 mpg?
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby aoxo1 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:46 am

Carlos Arroyo and Chalmers.
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby FUDU » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:55 am

Cass makes a great point about the context of LeBron's passing abilities, and about him moving, but can LeBron catch the ball on the move in a half court set, he hasn't shown the ability to do so to date. Almost everything in a HC set with him is about stopping and surveying for at least 2 seconds (often more). He has not shown the ability to do what a Ray Allen, Rip or Kobe often do when they catch and shoot instantly. IMO that is his biggest weakness, the need to stop to set up his move allowing the D to now increase their chances of stopping him.
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby papacass » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:25 pm

FUDU wrote:Cass makes a great point about the context of LeBron's passing abilities, and about him moving, but can LeBron catch the ball on the move in a half court set, he hasn't shown the ability to do so to date. Almost everything in a HC set with him is about stopping and surveying for at least 2 seconds (often more). He has not shown the ability to do what a Ray Allen, Rip or Kobe often do when they catch and shoot instantly. IMO that is his biggest weakness, the need to stop to set up his move allowing the D to now increase their chances of stopping him.


Do we really know what LeBron can do offensively in a structured setting? He's been getting by on raw talent for seven years. The Cavs under Brown had some basic sets, but the only time they'd usually draw up a play to get the ball to a specific player at a specfic place for a specific shot was off of timeouts.

I'd say 95 percent of the Cavs offense since 2003 has relied on Bron being bigger, faster and stronger than everyone else. He's never been utilized in the way that Kobe is utilized, or Allen, or Melo, or Wade. So his potential in a structured, defined offense is kind of unknown.

He's not a catch and shoot player, which is understood. He's not a shooting guard. But he can be a catch and drive player. How badly could he exhaust the other team if he's constantly on the move at the offensive end, faking, jabbing, pushing, spinning, moving every which way to try and get open? The other team has to keep up or they get burned.

That, to me, is the type of game LeBron is made for. He does not belong above the three-point line. He should be snaking around off screens, or just plain blowing by guys on cuts to the hoop or across the baseline. But that doesn't happen until he gives the ball up.
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby smalls1129 » Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:41 pm

papacass wrote:
FUDU wrote:Cass makes a great point about the context of LeBron's passing abilities, and about him moving, but can LeBron catch the ball on the move in a half court set, he hasn't shown the ability to do so to date. Almost everything in a HC set with him is about stopping and surveying for at least 2 seconds (often more). He has not shown the ability to do what a Ray Allen, Rip or Kobe often do when they catch and shoot instantly. IMO that is his biggest weakness, the need to stop to set up his move allowing the D to now increase their chances of stopping him.


Do we really know what LeBron can do offensively in a structured setting? He's been getting by on raw talent for seven years. The Cavs under Brown had some basic sets, but the only time they'd usually draw up a play to get the ball to a specific player at a specfic place for a specific shot was off of timeouts.

I'd say 95 percent of the Cavs offense since 2003 has relied on Bron being bigger, faster and stronger than everyone else. He's never been utilized in the way that Kobe is utilized, or Allen, or Melo, or Wade. So his potential in a structured, defined offense is kind of unknown.

He's not a catch and shoot player, which is understood. He's not a shooting guard. But he can be a catch and drive player. How badly could he exhaust the other team if he's constantly on the move at the offensive end, faking, jabbing, pushing, spinning, moving every which way to try and get open? The other team has to keep up or they get burned.

That, to me, is the type of game LeBron is made for. He does not belong above the three-point line. He should be snaking around off screens, or just plain blowing by guys on cuts to the hoop or across the baseline. But that doesn't happen until he gives the ball up.


This is certainly one of the main questions concerning LBJ and his ceiling/future. But the other is whether LBJ will play that type of game consistently or at all even. At least that is what I have gathered from this thread so far. In the past I think it was a combination of both. It is not just that the Cavs didn't/wouldn't/couldn't run more of a set offense, it's that when they tried LBJ would generally and slowly resort back to standing at the top of the key. Sometimes it is like the worst thing that can happen to him is getting hot behind the line b/c it leads to him feeling invincible and chucking up 40 footers even when they stop falling.
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby pup » Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:39 pm

smalls1129 wrote:
papacass wrote:
FUDU wrote:Cass makes a great point about the context of LeBron's passing abilities, and about him moving, but can LeBron catch the ball on the move in a half court set, he hasn't shown the ability to do so to date. Almost everything in a HC set with him is about stopping and surveying for at least 2 seconds (often more). He has not shown the ability to do what a Ray Allen, Rip or Kobe often do when they catch and shoot instantly. IMO that is his biggest weakness, the need to stop to set up his move allowing the D to now increase their chances of stopping him.


Do we really know what LeBron can do offensively in a structured setting? He's been getting by on raw talent for seven years. The Cavs under Brown had some basic sets, but the only time they'd usually draw up a play to get the ball to a specific player at a specfic place for a specific shot was off of timeouts.

I'd say 95 percent of the Cavs offense since 2003 has relied on Bron being bigger, faster and stronger than everyone else. He's never been utilized in the way that Kobe is utilized, or Allen, or Melo, or Wade. So his potential in a structured, defined offense is kind of unknown.

He's not a catch and shoot player, which is understood. He's not a shooting guard. But he can be a catch and drive player. How badly could he exhaust the other team if he's constantly on the move at the offensive end, faking, jabbing, pushing, spinning, moving every which way to try and get open? The other team has to keep up or they get burned.

That, to me, is the type of game LeBron is made for. He does not belong above the three-point line. He should be snaking around off screens, or just plain blowing by guys on cuts to the hoop or across the baseline. But that doesn't happen until he gives the ball up.


This is certainly one of the main questions concerning LBJ and his ceiling/future. But the other is whether LBJ will play that type of game consistently or at all even. At least that is what I have gathered from this thread so far. In the past I think it was a combination of both. It is not just that the Cavs didn't/wouldn't/couldn't run more of a set offense, it's that when they tried LBJ would generally and slowly resort back to standing at the top of the key. Sometimes it is like the worst thing that can happen to him is getting hot behind the line b/c it leads to him feeling invincible and chucking up 40 footers even when they stop falling.


Which is why the guys ran that highly effective, structured offensive set whenever LBJ missed a game or went to the bench for some air. You know, after he finished carrying them up and down the floor.

Again. LBJ has faults. His quitting being numero uno. But playing in the conference semis, the best teammate he had was Anthony Parker. You know, Candy's brother. Yes, that guy.

Nowhere was Mo, or Twan. Andy. JJ wasn't allowed. Z is a tree. An occasional burst from Diesel. Delonte was med-less. Moon was jumping real high.

Show me the guy that can beat the future NBA Champs while 95% of his teammates are busy chucking shit off the side of the rim like a drunken sorority chick who doesn't make it to the toilet on time and offer him the max deal. Well, the max deal you would be able to offer someone without the asinine Andy contract (you knew I would find a spot to throw that in, right?).
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby Gradysmanldy » Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:26 pm

Didn't arroyo go to milwaukee? Thought skip to my lou went to Miami.
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby waborat » Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:20 am

Just heard on my way home on 1350 something about the Cavs asking what it would take to do a S&T with the Raptors for Bosh...

Caught the very end of it and didn't hear the whole thing...

Anybody catch something about this?

I'm sure every team in the league has inquired though
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby Orenthal » Sun Jun 20, 2010 1:32 pm

I guess this was discussed by Bucher on the ESPNRadio game 7 pregame. It was then tweeted by Kenny Roda. I believe it was in the PD...
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby Cerebral_DownTime » Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:47 pm

Any linkage?
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby StewieG » Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:21 pm

While I suppose anything's possible, I really, really don't see Bosh landing here. For one, we weren't on his "list". For two, he sees himself as THE player on a championship team. Which he is not. Excellent 2nd piece. Not a first piece.
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:28 pm

StewieG wrote:While I suppose anything's possible, I really, really don't see Bosh landing here. For one, we weren't on his "list". For two, he sees himself as THE player on a championship team. Which he is not. Excellent 2nd piece. Not a first piece.


Does he really see himself as THE player? I thought he wanted to end up with Lebron if possible. Surely he wouldn't see himself as THE player if he was on the same team as The Chokin' One.
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby StewieG » Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:37 pm

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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby motherscratcher » Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:40 pm

StewieG wrote:http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/art_garcia/06/20/chris.bosh/index.html


Well, there you go. I am enlightened.
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Re: Off season trades

Unread postby StewieG » Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:46 pm

Of course it could just be posturing on his part, but somehow I don't think so. I think he feels slighted that all the talk about both the free agents in this class (LeBron, Wade, even Stoudamire) and the talk from the players from his own draft class (LeBron, Wade, Melo), and he's not often mentioned in the same breath...at least not nationally.
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