Goo takes by david falk

[Orenthal]

After browsing through NBA Reference i had to grab a few Zoloft.

[peeker643]

After browsing through NBA Reference i had to grab a few Zoloft.

Yes, it's sobering.

Still, the biggest goat-f$%# in this entire two pages is the thread title started by TCF's finest, Kegerator McSausagefingers. What a cluster.

[Orenthal]

Would you edit the title to fix it, if it were your post? I know I would.

[hermanfontenot]

As for his redicul;ous on-the-blocks take, I know that if my team signed Shaq the VERY FIRST THING I'd do is ace my blocks game. That way we could play together on the right AND the left blocks together.

I swear to Christ, I could come here and say "The sun rises in the East," and you'd call it a POS take.

If ANYONE else here- Aoxo, Pup, Peek, Madre- said, "LeBron needs to get down on the post" you'd either, a.) agree or b.) not say anything at all.

But of course I said it, so you have to ridicule it.

It'd be great to have a discussion here without personal animus getting in the way. But that's just not the way it is, I guess. So be it.

[peeker643]

I actually agree with you that he does need to spend some time on the blocks depending on matchups and for years down the road.

[hermanfontenot]

I actually agree with you that he does need to spend some time on the blocks depending on matchups and for years down the road.

Well then I'll just let you say it. That way I don't get my balls busted every two fucking seconds.

[jb]

As for his redicul;ous on-the-blocks take, I know that if my team signed Shaq the VERY FIRST THING I'd do is ace my blocks game. That way we could play together on the right AND the left blocks together.

I swear to Christ, I could come here and say "The sun rises in the East," and you'd call it a POS take.

If ANYONE else here- Aoxo, Pup, Peek, Madre- said, "LeBron needs to get down on the post" you'd either, a.) agree or b.) not say anything at all.

But of course I said it, so you have to ridicule it.

It'd be great to have a discussion here without personal animus getting in the way. But that's just not the way it is, I guess. So be it.

Oh don't pout. I think you are on a jihad against Bron becasue of his doozbaggery self cenbteredness, and I coulda laid off the enoticons I guess. Piling on.

But think about it Jessse. OIt is a guards league now. No one runs a two man low post game anymore. It is a game of moevemnt. Bron is far, far more valuable playing outside and driving than standing around like George Mikan waiting for the inlet pass. The game has changed. He gets doubled too much to do the Barkley / dantly butt back in. He has far more skills than that. maybe in 5 seasons when he loses a step changing his game to that of Karl Malone might make sense, but not nopw. He needs to be a more consistent outside shooter and not so streakey. When he's on, he is literally unstoppable. About the last think he needs to work on is a classic 1970's blcoks' game.

Therefore, coupling that with, ironically, your personal animus hating in Bron for off the courset reasons, I dissed your take.

But I don't have a hate on for you Jesse. Now excuse me while I go off to make fun of Peeker supportying you. ;-)

PPS - sorry you took the post so hard. didn't mean it as more than balll breaking and not agreeing with your take. Nothing more.

[hermanfontenot]

Oh don't pout. I think you are on a jihad against Bron becasue of his doozbaggery self cenbteredness, and I coulda laid off the enoticons I guess. Piling on.

But think about it Jessse. OIt is a guards league now. No one runs a two man low post game anymore. It is a game of moevemnt. Bron is far, far more valuable playing outside and driving than standing around like George Mikan waiting for the inlet pass. The game has changed. He gets doubled too much to do the Barkley / dantly butt back in. He has far more skills than that. maybe in 5 seasons when he loses a step changing his game to that of Karl Malone might make sense, but not nopw. He needs to be a more consistent outside shooter and not so streakey. When he's on, he is literally unstoppable. About the last think he needs to work on is a classic 1970's blcoks' game.

Therefore, coupling that with, ironically, your personal animus hating in Bron for off the courset reasons, I dissed your take.

But I don't have a hate on for you Jesse. Now excuse me while I go off to make fun of Peeker supportying you. ;-)

PPS - sorry you took the post so hard. didn't mean it as more than balll breaking and not agreeing with your take. Nothing more.

See now, here's where I feel embarrassed for being all emo and shit.

If you want to say I have a personal thing against LeBron, well- guilty. I don’t care for the guy.

I don't think saying the man needs a back-to-the-basket game qualifies as a personal slam, though. Because he does.

If I thought LeBron could ever be more than a streak shooter from outside, it would be different. Looking at his shooting pct against elite defensive teams in the postseason over the last four postseasons (35.5% against the Spurs; 35.5% against the Celtics in ’08; 44.7% against the Celtics in ’10- 33.9% in the last three games) has me skeptical about him ever being truly reliable with the jump shot.

I see a guy who could be literally unstoppable, with his size, speed, leaping ability and court vision, if he got serious about being a post player. Jordan did. Magic (the guy who LeBron reminds me of more than anyone) did. Kobe has. As long as he’s staying exclusively on the perimeter, the great defensive teams are going to pack the paint and dare him to make the outside shot with consistency- and he hasn’t been able to do it yet.

LeBron HAS to find a way to get relatively easy buckets against the likes of Boston. The post is the way to do it IMO. Right now he has to work way to hard against those types of teams.

As for your take re: Shaq, well, how often are we going to have a post player of that caliber in here? What are we supposed to do next- hold out for ten years until an end-of-the-line Dewey Howard becomes available (assuming Dewey has developed a post game of his own)?

I might very well start kissing LeBron’s ass again if he re-signs here. Honestly. But I’m still going to harp on his lack of a post game. YMMV.

[Orenthal]

It is a lack of any post game, and not, he should play the whole game in the post. He is willing to become a jump shooter at times, is relentless at going to the hole at times, but is almost never a post guy.

The few times he has gone to the post for more then a couple possessions in a row he usually would get good looks, but due to never actually playing with his back to the basket, doesn't finish well.

Also with the minutes Shaq played, LeBron could have been jump shooter or drive and finish during that time. Oh, but remember how clogged the paint was , maybe just a jump shooter...

[aoxo1]

Dude, you can continue to condescend to your heart's content. I personally don't give a shit. But mix in something of substance while you look down.

Please address why Larry Hughes was as much a joke after he left as when he was here. Please address how Mo Williams was anything other than one dimensional prior to arriving here and will be when he leaves. Please address how Gil Arenas pounding the floor with the ball for five years in Washington killed the game of Antawn Jamison. Please address why Jamison shot 50% in March and April while LeBron made things so difficult for him and how the Garnett size and length didn't bother him.

I mean, you keep telling us how LBJ kills talented players. Is it possible that you deem them to be talented because of James (Hughes) or maybe they're not as talented as you think they are (Mo) or maybe it was actually the talented player's shortcomings and issues that caused them to fall on their face in a given series (Jamison).

Yeah, he pounds the ball too much and is whiny, pouting, diva bitch. The guys you named still thrived in that environment until the Celtics series when James truly stood around and then quit.

Give us something aside from your unsubstantial one sentence replies that as often as not end in a question. Shake yourself. Or don't. Seriously, it doesn't matter. I really don't care.

If I look hard enough round here I can find a discussion as opposed to a snippet from the Mount where you give us headlines and support it with air.

Educate us.

Condescend? Give me a break. Look in the mirror sometime, because you are great at it yourself. When you keep arguing against something I clearly never claimed (LeBron hasn't improved since coming into the league!), I'm not sure how many times I need to repeat myself that I AM TALKING ABOUT YEAR 2 FORWARD. If you want more than an unsubstantial one sentence reply, just look up the thread. I provided the information about LeBron not showing his oft talked about improvements in FT and 3pt shooting. Or really in anything. Go ahead, take a look at his stats. He had a big jump in year 2 on offense. He had a big jump in year 5 on defense (that's from my eyes, though I'm sure no one would disagree). This is what I have been talking about, not some strawman he hasn't improved at all argument.

And you want to talk about whether he makes guys better or worse? That's fine, too. Just make sure you find someone that came to the Cavs and was clearly better. Because I know that Mo used to get to the rim nearly twice as often as he does now, and that he is forced to stand around waiting for a jump shot (indicated by an increase of 50% in his assisted rate) on this offense. He has no doubt benefited from LeBron creating those open 3's, but is that enough to compensate for the complete disappearance of his drive and kick game? You tell me whether LeBron has made Mo a better player, and don't just say "he has". Because there is almost no evidence that, despite all the open looks, guys put up better #'s or play better games with LeBron than they did the previous year or so(Amon, Hughes, Donyell, Mo, Antawn, Shaq, Joe Smith, Wally Sz).

The best argument against that, of course, is that all the guys who have left have proven to be shit elsewhere.

Look, I have stated (in this thread) that I still consider LeBron to be one of if not the best and most talented players in the world. Don't get me wrong. It will be disastrous for him to leave the Cavs. But he has GOT to learn how to play a better game on offense, beyond just putting up the jaw dropping stats. There is nothing I would love more than to see him develop something beyond driving and jacking up long jumpers. But it's 7 years now. Where has he improved significantly since year 2 on that end?

[peeker643]

Jesus. How am I going to quote that novelette? And deflecting to the well known fact that I condescend is not a denial you engaged in the same practice. I also try and be relatively selective with whom I take that tone. Not because of anything other than there are some people I have respect for.

Anywho, Mo is Mo. His numbers haven't changed a great deal. But that speaks to the fact that it may very well be that the guys the FO brought into support 23 are no great shakes. Mo is limited. Obviously on the defensive side but also offensively. He's not a finisher and he's not a great off the dribble player. He can knock down intermediate shots and shoot the ball from behind the arc.

Look at the basketballreference stuff Orenthal looked at. These guys who have come here are middling NBA players to one extent or another. To varying degrees due to age, ability or whatever, but they are middling.

There are no Pippens or Gasols in that 7 year run. There aren't three HoFers still relatively in their primes.

James has handled this poorly. He has a lot of room to improve in some areas, leadership first and foremost. I still think James has improved every year. Whether it's statistically or in his understanding of the game and being comfortable against nearly any defensive set. The problem is he's never been forced to adapt to a set offensive philosophy and he's always had to carry the load himself since he was 14 years old.

Give him a coach who will hold him accountable for changing the latter and will implement the former. Then get him someone who's a legit running mate.

Then judge him.

[jb]

It is a lack of any post game, and not, he should play the whole game in the post. He is willing to become a jump shooter at times, is relentless at going to the hole at times, but is almost never a post guy.

The few times he has gone to the post for more then a couple possessions in a row he usually would get good looks, but due to never actually playing with his back to the basket, doesn't finish well.

Also with the minutes Shaq played, LeBron could have been jump shooter or drive and finish during that time. Oh, but remember how clogged the paint was , maybe just a jump shooter...

OJ ( & Herm) - si, in a perfect world it'd be great if Bron had an old school blocks game. But again, I see it as waaaaaay down on the list of what is important, what he should improve, and what would help the team.

I also don't want to take the greatest face the basket driver God ever created and waste him on the blocks fartin' around waiting for the rock. I just see it as a case of putting Scarlett Johanson in the kitchen to make some fakkin french toast. And thus, some picking of knits.

See, I can make a point and be nice.

[Orenthal]

jb I only need to see it mixed in, not taking over. Sure if he wanted to improve by not pounding the ball away at the 3pt line, and instead initiating off passes received from the elbow, I'd care less about back to the basket post game. My only point is that when it comes down to an elite defense he can, and has been stopped.

She cooks? Now I'm down... :)

[jb]

jb I only need to see it mixed in, not taking over. Sure if he wanted to improve by not pounding the ball away at the 3pt line, and instead initiating off passes received from the elbow, I'd care less about back to the basket post game. My only point is that when it comes down to an elite defense he can, and has been stopped.

She cooks? Now I'm down... :)

Finite time my man. If I have 2 days of work I'd spend them on working on a more consistent shot rather than post moves. And with that, I fell I've this one.

I'm out.